Non Combatant -> Atk Corrupted - > Non Combatant

@ Steven Sharif

Steven and to whom it may concern, I understand that if going corrupted you kill someone who has chosen to be a non combatant, however if you are corrupted and have dozens of people on you don't you feel that they should be combatant or perhaps a new variable which would allow the corrupted person to defend themselves without gaining absurd amount of corruption, especially if it is a bounty hunter?

I don't feel that Bounty Hunter's should be able to engage in combat with a corrupted without gaining some form of flag, I've never been a fan of the flagging system that came out of the eastern markets but I understand why it exists.

Perhaps some other form of system could be created to deal with this?

Thoughts?

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

bloodprophet

Bounty hunters are always flagged for corrupted players.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_corruption

Being corrupted is a punishment not a reward.

A recent longer thread on this.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/48580/a-solution-to-the-non-combatant-vs-corrupted-flagging-issue/p1

Kivek RhuKhan

thx for the link to the bounty hunter thing, seems better to fight non corrupted without taking the bounty hunter role. Having your stats nerfed and dropping your gear is punishment enough especially if it makes you little more than an npc flag systems are trash imho surely a revolutionary mmo could do more to come up with a unique system rather than use a system that is and always has been trash.

flagging systems reduce pvp by making ppl simply not fight.

either way i'll still be pking as many ppl as I can

maouw

@Kiv3k
Bounty Hunters get special perks associated with hunting the corrupted.
So it will boil down to what those perks are.

Taleof2Cities

Kiv3k wrote: »

Having your stats nerfed and dropping your gear is punishment enough especially if it makes you little more than an npc flag systems are trash imho surely a revolutionary mmo could do more to come up with a unique system rather than use a system that is and always has been trash.

Translation: "The system is trash because I prefer actions without consequences."

Jahlon

If a Bounty Hunter attacks a corrupted they get the advantage of a reward for the PVP Season - Bounty Hunter rewards. The disadvantage is that the Corrupted isn't at any stat penalty when fighting a flagged Bounty Hunter.

If a Non-Combatant attacks a corrupted they get the advantage of the Corrupted being at reduced stats. The disadvantage is that they do not get any rewards in the PVP Season.

It is a system of Justice vs Mob Justice.

Justice is the Bounty Hunter doing their job.
Mob Justice is the greens taking it into their own hands.

Daerax

Is there any specific info about death penalties for non-combatant player killed by corrupted one? Would standard death penalties apply to non-combatant even if he fights back? It makes no sense to me that green player would suffer 50% penalty if he fought back against combatant, but had no way of avoiding 100% penalty when attacked by corrupted player. It would also be possibly exploitable. If you target someone specifically for the materials he's been farming for some time. It could be beneficial to kill a friend first, get yourself corrupted and then kill the player you targeted with guaranteed 100% of possilble loot from him, if the corruption for 2 PKs isn't that hard to clear off.

I think there should either be an option for non-combatant to flag against corrupted player if he chooses so (there are obviousely some issues with that), or you should suffer 50% penalty if you fight back even if you die as non-combatant (with possibly lower corruption gained for the already corrupted player compared to killing someone who doesn't fight back at all).

Noaani

Kiv3k wrote: »

either way i'll still be pking as many ppl as I can

Then maybe they need to make the penalties for corruption stiffer, as this is the exact behavior corruption is trying to stop.

Recluse74

Noaani wrote: »

Kiv3k wrote: »

either way i'll still be pking as many ppl as I can

Then maybe they need to make the penalties for corruption stiffer, as this is the exact behavior corruption is trying to stop.

From what I have read, some of the penalties are tougher than what Lineage 2 were, and Lineage 2 was pretty tough. So basically from what I gather, It is Lineage 2 tough, plus AoC added penalties.

If there are players who go Perma Corrupt, they will be at low levels due to the penalties of dropped items and the cost it will takle to replace them to keep up their "fun". So you are looking at someone playing on an alt, funded by their high level main, someone who is about to quit, or someone who is either role playing a serial killer or just overall that is their end game.

They should be few and far in between. While we did see them in Lineage 2, they were usually not a big deal and only posed a threat to low level players.

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

From what I have read, some of the penalties are tougher than what Lineage 2 were

We dont really know yet.

We know what form the penalties will take, but that is about all, and is subject to change.

As an example, we know that if you gain corruption, you can work it off by gaining experience.

If we assume equal level players and mobs, this penalty would be vastly different if one corruption kill needs 10 mobs worth of experience to work off, vs if it needs 1,000 mobs worth of experience.

Right now, not only do we not know where this will fall, but neither do Intrepid.

They have intentionally set the system up so that they have multiple levers they can adjust in order to adjust player behavior. They want (need) an amount of corruption kills on each server, but wont want it to get too high.

Some of the levers they have in place are;

Amount of corruption per kill
Amount of additional corruption based on killing lower levels
Amount of corruption needed before items drop
Chance of item drop at that corruption threshold
Rate of increase of item drop chance based on higher corruption
Chance of multiple item drops
Severity of combat penalty based on corruption amount
Amount of corruption worked off for each point of experience

There are also further levers that are based on the general death penalty (which are multiplied if killed while corrupt), so Intrepid have a lot of scope to alter things easily.

Some games hard code these values in to the game, making it harder and riskier to adjust then. Intrepid are setting it up so that it is easier to alter them, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they allowed for.minor alterations specifically on the individual server level.

Okeydoke

We don't know everything yet and nothing is set in stone. My impression though is that the corruption system is going to be designed to make it hard to be a full time pker, not impossible. Wannabe pkers that really aren't that skilled will be weeded out by the system and it's punishments.

But I think there will be some highly skilled red players that can pk full time. Because they don't die a lot (lose gear) and because they're also very good at managing their money and resources. So when they do die they can replace lost gear.

The skill dampening will force them to take breaks from pking though. They'll have to constantly be managing that mechanic, which will make them not inclined to just randomly slaughter people on sight. They'll only go after what they think are lucrative targets.

I know I've seen it talked about in other threads, the catch 22 of a corrupted player not being able to defend himself from attackers because he'll get more corruption. Not sure if that's been resolved one way or the other yet.

Noaani

Okeydoke wrote: »

I know I've seen it talked about in other threads, the catch 22 of a corrupted player not being able to defend himself from attackers because he'll get more corruption. Not sure if that's been resolved one way or the other yet.

From what I understand, that is by design.

It is a factor to take in to consideration before first gaining corruption. As soon as you gain corruption, other players can force you to either gain more corruption than you planned, or suffer a penalty that you perhaps had not planned on.

The idea there is that it is taking some aspects of the penalty for corruption out of the hands of the corrupt player, just as the corrupt player took things out of the hands of the player they attacked to gain corruption.

Look at it as a form of poetic justice.

Recluse74

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

From what I have read, some of the penalties are tougher than what Lineage 2 were

We dont really know yet.

We know what form the penalties will take, but that is about all, and is subject to change.

As an example, we know that if you gain corruption, you can work it off by gaining experience.

If we assume equal level players and mobs, this penalty would be vastly different if one corruption kill needs 10 mobs worth of experience to work off, vs if it needs 1,000 mobs worth of experience.

Right now, not only do we not know where this will fall, but neither do Intrepid.

They have intentionally set the system up so that they have multiple levers they can adjust in order to adjust player behavior. They want (need) an amount of corruption kills on each server, but wont want it to get too high.

Some of the levers they have in place are;

Amount of corruption per kill
Amount of additional corruption based on killing lower levels
Amount of corruption needed before items drop
Chance of item drop at that corruption threshold
Rate of increase of item drop chance based on higher corruption
Chance of multiple item drops
Severity of combat penalty based on corruption amount
Amount of corruption worked off for each point of experience

There are also further levers that are based on the general death penalty (which are multiplied if killed while corrupt), so Intrepid have a lot of scope to alter things easily.

Some games hard code these values in to the game, making it harder and riskier to adjust then. Intrepid are setting it up so that it is easier to alter them, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they allowed for.minor alterations specifically on the individual server level.

The numbers might be different than what L2 were, as far as the chances of things dropping and amount of corruption gained.. but in the end.... Corruption multiplies per kill..

If you kill one person that is same level as you and get 10 corruption points that time...
The next time you kill a player, even if it is same level as you, it will be more than 10.

So now, every time you kill someone, the corruption keeps adding up and adding up and adding up..

This is not killing people while you are corrupt.. This is killing people after you work off the corruption. The game will keep track of how many PKs you have, and no matter how long you have been a good boy.. when you kill again, it will just keep multiplying from your past endeavors.

So in the end.. Xp per mob, chances to drop, and stat loss... mean nothing.. Because if you make a character that is constantly PKing... you will pay for it dearly the further down that road you go.

This is why I have said... Most of the corrupt players who try to do it full time, will be low level. Financed by their main character, because their PK character is just a way to have fun if nothing is going on for their high level toon.

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

This is not killing people while you are corrupt.. This is killing people after you work off the corruption. The game will keep track of how many PKs you have, and no matter how long you have been a good boy.. when you kill again, it will just keep multiplying from your past endeavors.

Yeah, but the additional amount of corruption gain based on kill count is just another lever they have control over.

So is how easy it is to lower your kill count - a system that has been stated as under consideration to be put in game.

Being a low level PK in Ashes won't work as well as it does in many games. In most games, the trick is to be in an area there lower level players than you frequent, but higher level players than you do not. Since the content in Ashes is going to be somewhat more mixed than that, and since higher level players have reason to go to all areas not just areas designted for "their level", finding an area to hunt for this type of player may prove impossible.

Recluse74

If they put a system in to lower your kill count, I can promise you it will be one of two things .. Very time consuming or very expensive. There is no way, you put in all these penalties for going corrupt, then add a get out of jail free card to minimize it all.

So basically, if you go corrupt once on accident, or because your were angry one day.. you have a chance to work it off... it will not be easy and or cheap (whatever they decide), and will make you think before doing it again.

And if what I said happens to be the case, then people who make going corrupt a living, will either never try to lower their kill count due to expense, or time taken to do so.

How long did you play Lineage 2 by the way?

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

If they put a system in to lower your kill count, I can promise you it will be one of two things .. Very time consuming or very expensive. There is no way, you put in all these penalties for going corrupt, then add a get out of jail free card to minimize it all.

As I said, these are levers.

Intrepid have a target amount of corruption kills they need to happen on each server - and I do mean need. They have dedicated an entire progression path to killing corrupt players, so they need players to gain corruption at a rate that is high enough to make that progression path worth the time.

Now, they don't want this game to appeal to the murder-hobo type player - this has been made very obvious. This may mean that they don't adjust the rate at which you can lower your PK by a whole lot.

But, on the other hand, they NEED to keep people in the game gaining corruption, so maybe they do alter those specific levers.

I think you mistake hat I am saying here as what Intrepid will do. That isn't what I am saying. What I am saying is what Intrepid CAN do.

L2 had it's systems basically hard coded in to the game - as was the case for most games back then. Making adjustments was hard. This means they would set the paramaters, and what ever player response they got was what they had.

Ashes is specifically not doing that. They have made it so they can adjust these things weekly - potentially even daily, and probably have them operate at least slightly different on each server.

What this means is that the amount of curruption based PvP in Ashes will basically be exactly how much Intrepid want to see. If they see too much, they will punish it more in some manner - and if they aren't seeing enough, they can ease off on those punishments a little.

Trying to guess how players will react to the systems isn't what we should be looking at, we should be looking at how much corruption gain Intrepid want to see - as that is the only thing that matters.

Recluse74

If the GM's start manipulating the system that is supposed to protect its players... just so they can feed one job progression... people will not be happy at all.

The only thing I could think of that would feed the Bounty Hunter system, while adding a system to take away PK's .. would be another career based system that pays and rewards for PK's.

This way.. you have players in something like an "Assassins guild" who get contracts to perform so many PK's within a certain time period, or whatever other method you could think of... which would in turn, feed the Bounty Hunters with their corrupt players they have to chase and kill for their progression.

If you are not apart of the "Assassins Guild" the normal corruption rules would apply to you.

I just cannot see a game where the punishments are changed based on the companies needs to feed a job progression. It would bring way too many things into question, and god forbid if people do not start accusing of favoritism with that type of "Lever" system .. this game will die in 6 months if that happens. Not really... but you know what I mean...

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

The only thing I could think of that would feed the Bounty Hunter system, while adding a system to take away PK's .. would be another career based system that pays and rewards for PK's.

Any system that rewards players for kills part what is already on offer has been rejected by Steven, as that is not the kind of game he wants Ashes to be.

I mean, if you don't like the system as I have attempted to explain it to you, I am not sure what to say.

That is Stevens plan for the game. Talk to him about it.

Recluse74

This is a fact that Steven said they will manipulate the punishment system to get people to go corrupt so one job progression will have content?

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

This is a fact that Steven said they will manipulate the punishment system to get people to go corrupt so one job progression will have content?

No, he said they are building levers in to the game so that they can fine tune the threshold at which players are generally happy to gain corruption - among other things.

There is more than just bounty hunters that rely on people gaining corruption. The entire premise of the game being about risk and reward requires there be a risk in activities like harvesting.

If that risk is too low, the game is broken.

If that risk is too high, the game is broken.

akabear

Well when red in L2, if it was only 1-5 pk`s then often stay in the same area and burn it off.
If the area was hot with people who might come after you, then it was move to somewhere quiet.
If everywhere was active at the time, then sometimes it was either log out or return to clan hall until quieter.

And just sometimes, either in the area or somewhere less conspicuous clan mates would kill you repeatedly until you were clean.

Then back to do the quest to reduce your count so you are good to go next time you want to pk.

I recall one time having clan members kill me and I blew up and just about dropped all my valuable gear.

With no fast porting, it is a bit of a game changer for pk`ing.. but I wonder if you can be summonsed?.. that in itself might be worth dual boxing!

Child Item