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Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Yes, if you are green, and get attacked by a red player, and fight back, you die as green. Dying in PvP as green means you suffer the full death penalty.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging#Player_death
I have the same concerns as you, and I really hope they add the ability for a green player to voluntarily flag themselves as purple against a red player to avoid the loophole.
I think this is on purpose. Corrupt players have almost all of the risk when they engage in PvP due to the loss of gear factor. And since this game is risk reward based, the red should have the advantage of gaining something of value for attacking a non combatant, because if they lose.. it could be a huge loss.
Its like Poker.. one player has a quarter of their chips on the table and the other is all in.
I like the fact that the green can choose to fight back and not turn purple. I don't like the fact that they can't turn purple. That's a glaring oversight.
I forget where it was but I remember the example being used was a warriors charge with an secondary class being mage would visually make the charge a teleport.
pretty sure it was an official video as i don't watch much videos on this game.
waiting for alpha to answer my questions.
Well, considering the purpose of the system, I don't really think it's true, even if it would fit the risk vs reward principle. I am pretty sure there should come no advantage from this system for the red player since it is punishment and it's meant to discourage players from doing something. Also, it would be risk vs reward for the corrupted player, but from the other perspective it makes no sense. Why should green player be punished for being killed by corrupted player compared to anyone else. Sure, he can potentially get something more for killing the red, but quite often it won't be the case anyway (depending on the PK session being planned or not, level difference etc.). I just don't see any reason why the choice between defending yourself or not shouldn't have same consequences regardless of who attacks you.
Pretty sure you can force flag yourself for a time.
Think one of the videos they said currently set as Ctl+F.
Death penalties won't change for the green between being killed by a red or purple it will be the same for both. Only the PK'er loses here.
Short story don't be a jerk and it will be ok.
I agree, but if you look at it in the sense of the non combatant putting his chips in the pot as soon as he leave the safety of town, it sorta applies... I dont know... I just throwing thigs out there to see if it makes sense lol.. Dont listen to me lol
I could of sworn I read or heard it mentioned that a player who is not flagged does have a chance to lose more of their materials in the inventory.. and the penalties were less if they fought back. So if you had 10 cabbages in your inventory and you get PK'd, you would lose 5, and if you flagged back and died, you would lose only 2. Made up numbers there in that statement, but that was the basics of what I heard. Of course not remember the source does not give this any credit, so please do not take this as fact.
Every action in this game should have a positive and a negative, even going corrupt. If the only gain for going red is personal fun, it will soon be overridden by penalties and major loss. If penalties and major loss are the only outcomes for going red, there is no purpose for it in the game at all.
The purpose of the corruption system is to give players a way to take out frustrations, offer an alternate source of gameplay if that is what one enjoys and to cause friction on the server (Im sure there are more reasons, just listed these). If a player is gathering materials that you need for crafting, but you are not high enough level to gather that material... then going red on that player should give you a chance to get that material as a drop from a PK. Which in turn cause friction, which cause PvP, which makes the server go round.
I do not think this will be a common thing, but it will happen. I know if I was short two pieces of some type of high level metal to craft a top tier weapon.. I might chance a PK on someone gathering that metal to see if I get lucky to get. The risk is getting killed afterwards, and losing more than I gained.
I rewatched the video you are talking about. You won't be able to just flag yourself. It's in the game now for testing but it won't be the case on launch. You flag yourself by attacking other player. But as far as we know, you won't get flagged if you attack corrupted player. So with the info we have, green possibly loses here.
Sure, it makes perfect sesnse, I agree. But your example doesn't really cover the issue. If you decide to kill someone for some material he is gathering and risk the possible consequences of this action, it is ok. But in that case, you would go green - > purple - > red and the other guy will be able to fight back and decrease his penalties if he chooses to. Or he can take the hit of larger material loss in exchange of making your life harder with corruption.
But I don't think you should be able to prepare for the attack by killing your friend/alt/random bystander to guarantee higher reward for killing that player by taking away his option to flag back. Because sure, for the PKer it's all risk vs. reward. But for the killed player it really wouldn't be in a lot of cases. If there is level difference or you just don't have anything of value on yourself, there is really no reward for him and he is only punished by the fact he was attacked by red player instead of green/purple one. This is the part I see issue with. Since the iniciative is completely in hands of the attacker, I don't think others should be punished because he decided to take risk himself. Also the attacker can minimise his risks if it's not spontaneous decision but it's more or less preplanned.
So to make sure I get this right, you are saying it is unfair that the person about to PK someone has a chance to prepare for the fight, while the person minding his own business is not prepared... correct?
If yes.. you are 100% correct, it is not fair and I hate when happens to me. But everyone who has played under this system can tell you, you will live again and you will recover. But it does suck the first few times.
Soon you will start paying to your surroundings better, know that you should stop pulling mobs if someone is watching you from a short distance. If you see someone running at you after you pull a mob.. run away till the mob resets, then chose to fight, or keep running till you get around other players which will usually make the attacker choose an easier target.
In the end though... systems like this will give you trust issues lol.
Well, not really. I played some L2 so I am familiar with similar system. The flagging system in general is not something I see as a problem at all, I actually like it. I just don't see any logic behind the specific scenario where you are punished for getting killed by already red player compared to purple one. If you are encouraged to defend yourself against a combatant by lovering your death penalties and droped items to 50% by flagging yourself back in case you die, the same should apply to being attacked by an already corrupted player in my opinion.
Sure, if other person decides to kill you and prepares for that, it's not fair, but it's too bad, nothing you can really do about it. Not a problem in my opinion. What I see as a problem is a player preparing for the kill by specifically getting corrupted preemptively.
Let's say I do some gathering for few hours. I am ok with someone attacking me and taking part of that. It sucks, but it's part of the game. But if the guy has green/purple name at first, even if I know I won't kill him, I can make the decision. Will I spare him the trouble of getting corrupted and save myself some of the materials or will I be ok with losing a bit more knowing he will have to deal with corruption and hopefully losing much more in the process. I don't know why this decision should be taken away from me just because the guy apperad and was already corrupted.
Oh I wish we could but no, there is no force flag planned for launch (right now it's just for testing, sigh). If there was there would be no problem. Again, glaring oversight.
Of course there is no change for the green whether a red or purple kills them. That's not the point. The point is that if a purple attacks a green, the green can fight back and make themselves purple. If they die, they only suffer half of the penalties. You have no choice if a red attacks you.
The info is right there in the link I provided. If you die as green you will suffer the following:
1) You take on experience debt, which temporarily reduces your stats, HP and mana, gives you worse gear proficiency, and you get a worse drop rate from monsters. All of that is in place until you earn back the XP debt to clear it.
2) Your equipment loses durability (just like WoW and most other MMOs). That means your gear loses stats until repaired, and at 0% gear can't be worn until repaired.
3) You drop a percentage of gatherables and processed goods. And you lose a percentage of certificates you earn that you can trade in for stuff at NPCs.
If you die to a player while flagged purple, the same thing happens to you, but at half the rate. So you take half the XP debt, suffer half the equipment durability, and drop half the stuff (crafting goods and certificates) you normally would. That is the incentive to flagging purple other than simply indicating a willingness to PvP; if someone kills you it's only half as bad.
If you die while flagged red, by the way, you suffer 4 times as much as you would if you were green, and at high levels of corruption you can drop actual gear. So it sucks, by design. Corruption is something you aren't supposed to want, it's intended to be the negative consequence for engaging in non-consensual combat. The only good thing for the corruptee is that your corruption lessens on death.
At 1:10:05 Steven is talking about the flagging system. Needing to hold alt or ctrl when you attack allows you to attack someone. When the attack lands you then flag. With reds being considered "monsters/mobs" this will most likely not work against them. I think this will be subject to testing and may change or may not. I personally think it is fine as is. PKing people is not meant to be a viable play style and rewarded. a green losing a few more cabbages vs a red rising dropping competed items seems like a fair trade to me.
Players are flagged as combatants if they attack another player when carrying out a forced attack. If the attacked players fight back, they are also flagged as combatants, otherwise the attacked player will remain flagged as a non-combatant.[91]
Don't think friends killing you would work as long as the toon is your guild or alliance.
Seems like there was a quote from Steven on this at some point. Not finding right now I'll look more later unless some one posts it first.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP
The open world PvP flagging system is designed to deter people from griefing other players.[88]
I think we are talking about the exact same thing.. just getting our wires crossed. Because what you described is exactly how I meant to describe it... but I probably did not word it right. Thank you for being able to communicate better than I can.
You pretty much nailed it.. It is Lineage 2 renamed ... as far as PvP goes anyway.
I mean, it is fine. In the end, this is really minor issue and the system will do it's job regardless. But it really seems more like an oversight than anything that just doesn't really make sense. And from the perspective of the killed green player, it just feels bad. I mean, if you farm something for 2 hours and then get killed, it really won't affect you in the long run if you lose 15 or 30 minutes worth of cabbages (numbers are random ofc). But just the fact you couldn't do anything about it while in most other similar scenarious, you had that option would be super annoying, much more than losing those items themselves I believe. Especially if you lose double amount of something more rare or if you get killed two or more times (if it would be possible, depending on the distance you will respawn at etc).
I admit, that exploiting it by getting red ahead of time is probably a bit of a stretch. But it is still something that could possibly happen and I don't really see a good reason for this option even existing.
And if I understand the design philosophy behind corruption correctly, it shouldn't offer any direct benefits, no matter how little.
It may be fine, but I can't find any good reason why it should be like that. It's fine just because it wouldn't matter that much anyway, which isn't really something you want to see.
Reds in Lineage 2 tended to be lower level due to the constant cost of replacing weapons and armor. The only time High levels went red... was when they were really pissed off at someone, or just wanted to make a point by throwing around their weight. Sure the rich players had less to lose because replacing gear could be accomplished quickly (still hurt no matter what they said), but 90% of the server could not just afford to lose a piece of anything off their main gear set. It was soul crushing in that game to lose gear. I do not think AoC will be as punishing, but it will not be a walk in the park either.
If you see a high level red in this game, fully geared and fighting and killing anyone coming his way.. You can bet he went insane IRL, or is planning on quitting the game.. either way.. high level reds will not be a thing in this game except in a few minor cases. It is the low level reds that usually cause the most havoc on the people playing on alts, or new players to the game. Plus high level reds just make things worse by going after low level non combatants. Maybe that is how you can piss them off in return... Jump on a very low level character, run after them, avoid the mobs lol... and then see if he kills you adding to his corruption status way more than he probably intends to
They dont understand that chosing to PK somebody is a great risk. They think that everyone is out to grief them. Laughable concerns, boardering paranoia and self importance delusions.
On the other hand there are the players that reached lv cap in a week, doing non challenging story questlines that you can complete naked and bare handed. They ran 3-4 dungeons or BGs for a couple days and got geared up with high end items. Once that was over, all they cared for was BGs and war modes/zones 24/7, until they got bored and went on to max out a new toon in a week.
In AoC you will need to spend time to lv up, lv up your weapon playstyle and wealth path. Gather materials, craft gear in order to venture into deeper zones for good xp. You need friends. This isn't a lobby game for you to jump in Q and start killing other players.
They dont understand that the flagging/PK system is necessary in a challenging PvX game.
AoC will be a brand new experience for many of you. There is 0 chance that the core systems in place that have a clear objective will change.
Great way of putting it... My clan mates made fun of me cause I was running around Giran with all Blue Wolf on... except for the boots, for 2 months lol. I had most of the material needed and was short on SoP's (Stones of Purity)... and found some for sale... Bought the whole stash this dwarf had for some ungodly amount of adena.. only to find out they were a look alike item... totally got scammed... lol. So took me another month to save up for them.
You remember that? damn.. I am getting old... or I do not eat right. Probably both lol.
I mean, it is fine. In the end, this is really minor issue and the system will do it's job regardless. But it really seems more like an oversight than anything that just doesn't really make sense. And from the perspective of the killed green player, it just feels bad. I mean, if you farm something for 2 hours and then get killed, it really won't affect you in the long run if you lose 15 or 30 minutes worth of cabbages (numbers are random ofc). But just the fact you couldn't do anything about it while in most other similar scenarious, you had that option would be super annoying, much more than losing those items themselves I believe. Especially if you lose double amount of something more rare or if you get killed two or more times (if it would be possible, depending on the distance you will respawn at etc).
I admit, that exploiting it by getting red ahead of time is probably a bit of a stretch. But it is still something that could possibly happen and I don't really see a good reason for this option even existing.
And if I understand the design philosophy behind corruption correctly, it shouldn't offer any direct benefits, no matter how little.
It may be fine, but I can't find any good reason why it should be like that. It's fine just because it wouldn't matter that much anyway, which isn't really something you want to see.[/quote]
Totally makes sense to me. Red players are considered monsters. Greens don't flag purple killing mobs in the world and enjoy the same risks fighting anything PvE.
As George Black said this will not be as big of an issue as people are thinking it will be. Everything being crafted it make it really suck to lose your gear.
Never played L2 but I am wiling to bet the low levels ganking people probably got stomped on by higher levels often because they killed someone leveling an alt.
I was in a duo with another clan member, with buffers boxed. Two players came into the area where we were playing xp`ing over us in an area where that could not handle 2 sets of players. We politely asked them to leave, they stayed, did an excessive amount of smack talked, so we decided to go red on the pair. (pk)
The dead pair disappeared (revived in town) and returned 5-10 min later, while we were still trying to wear off our red status. We killed them again as we were not prepared to take a chance they would be passive and being red made us vulnerable and not worth the risk of them attacking first.
This happened 4-5x more .. and we were then way over our safe pk limit and at high risk of dropping critical gear.
So we decided to accept the xp loss, went into a cave out of sight and kill / rez`ed each other until white again.
They came back yet again with a large group for what I imagine they thought would be a potential bounty from our deaths. But we were white .. the group left
Biggest differences I see is that 1) there is not quick teleport backup as L2 had for those that had a clan hall and/or scroll in inventory 2) decreased fighting capacity with each kill
But I do see above possibly happening.
We did not want to war against a clan we could not win against so we fought by pk`in instead..as xp loss was greater than at war..
Peace prevailed