My fear isn't that AoC will get carried away with censorship, because I just don't think they will - but that people will wind up ruining this game for everyone by having too much access to the tools and the inclination to block, mute and cancel anyone that upsets them.
In a game based so much on communication, long term relationships, reputation AND CONFLICT, not a lot will make sense if half the community can only hear the folks on their friends list.
Its good for kids to phase annoying people online, so theyll know how to deal with them irl.
Theyre just words, ure the one deciding when and how they affect u.
Copy pasting attitudes and methods from 'the internet' is not going to help you 'in real life'.
Most kids and adults lack moral training, not to mention MANNERS. Discipline was vilified by the same breed of morons who now want to redefine and ban words.
Do you know why kids spout rotten things? Parents don't care. Worthless parents = worthless kids.
Its good for kids to phase annoying people online, so theyll know how to deal with them irl.
Theyre just words, ure the one deciding when and how they affect u.
Copy pasting attitudes and methods from 'the internet' is not going to help you 'in real life'.
Most kids and adults lack moral training, not to mention MANNERS. Discipline was vilified by the same breed of morons who now want to redefine and ban words.
Do you know why kids spout rotten things? Parents don't care. Worthless parents = worthless kids.
Lol this reads like a distant boomer uncle's facebook post
Let's not derail this conversation into "kids these days"
I feel like being sensitive about a filter is silly in both directions. Restrictions breed creativity (not necessarily positive) so people will be rude or nice with or without a filter. In my opinion the amount of positive to the people who like filters is greater than the amount of effort it takes to misspell a word that is in the filter. I also think that filters are useless personally but I don't feel negatively affected by them.
As others stated:
It should be an option to have a filter on or off.
If it's unfiltered and someone is harassing someone then I believe the community to punish him or why not put him at trial for his behavior in a town... that would be truly nice.
Would actually love to put down that banhammer (voiceban/chatban) for someone who's being a douche and just harassing a player.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I pretty much ignore game-channel chat and only focus on skype/discord/twitch chat.
Some time you can get some great moments if you read the ingame chat
"Cyber me! Cyber! Cyber!"
I once had a guy start typing the song we are the champions after a world boss fight in guild wars and everyone started to join him. It was an amazing moment and why I love MMOs
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Of course now they have a bunch of advocacy groups lining up to make sure that their favorite offensive words will be added to the filter which will, over time, basically eliminate the use of half the language on the planet.
What words exactly do you have an issue with these advocacy groups requesting a filter for? Sounds a lot like you're just ignorant and want to be ignorant openly
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KarthosMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
People need abandon the illusion that they have "free speech" everywhere they go. Your speech is only free when you hold the power. A game company can just ban/remove you, ergo, they hold the power. What these types of debates online typically are really about isn't even about "free speech", but about wanting "unaccountable speech".
I am a big proponent in individual agency and accountability. By not having a mandatory filter, you allow people to be accountable for themselves, and most people can handle that.
For those that can't, I think there should be consequences, you should be held accountable for what you say online. Good or bad. And when you censor chat, you remove part of these consequences because you aren't allowing that person to fuck up. It's like hand cuffing someone IN CASE they rob a bank. But we do handcuff people AFTER they rob the bank. That's what holding someone accountable is about.
Should a company have control over what people say and do on their platform? Should you be allowed to tell people what they can say and do in your house? I think yes. But I also don't go to other people's houses and wipe my ass on their couch, call their wife a fat whore and eat all their Doritos.
That's cool and all, but they could easily just not make the filter mandatory so that they aren't forcing their ideology on to people.
You didn't read a damn thing I said did you?
I said nothing about "forcing an ideology" and actually gave a reason why NOT to have a filter, that doesn't have to do with "i wanna say what I want cuz I wanna!"
I'm on your side dumbass, but after reading your replies, maybe I don't want to be...
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Look all you have to do is have chat filters be optional and turn them on when you want them. Its really not that hard
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
IMO This sort of thing should be togglable or outright just not exist. I personally don't like it when DEVs make their online worlds more welcoming to younger players. I don't think an online world is great environment for younger players and adults in interact anonymously. I feel particularly strong about this when the game is a place for competitive adults to heavily invest their time into a game. Competition can bring out the worst in people. If most of the MMO players out there are adults then most toxic players are adults. These toxic adults often say things that are a lot worst than what a language filter could ever pick up. It just makes more sense to me for games like Ashes to go full speed into a ESRB A (Adults only) rating. I am not saying that kids should not ever be allowed to play MMOs. I am saying that parents should have the expectation that MMOs are an adult environment before deciding if they want to spend 15$ a month for their child to hang out with random adults online. If Ashes was free to play and less competitive, I would feel less strongly about this opinion.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Steven began playing MMORPGs when he was, what, 13??
I don't think he's going to go with an Adults Only rating for his MMORPG.
I was 11 when Diablo 1 came out. It was my first online game. My parents seems mostly content with me fighting succubi with their tits hanging out, and dealing with random adults. Most of my friends had to wait for D2 when they were older. Even in the 90s parents were making these calls for their children. I am saying that a game with a mostly adult population should be expected to be an adult environment.
ESRB M might be a better target, but at the very least the filter should not be mandatory.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Of course now they have a bunch of advocacy groups lining up to make sure that their favorite offensive words will be added to the filter which will, over time, basically eliminate the use of half the language on the planet.
What words exactly do you have an issue with these advocacy groups requesting a filter for? Sounds a lot like you're just ignorant and want to be ignorant openly
Well I certainly don't want to come across that way. To better voice my position on this I just feel that further censorship is un-necessary when you already have a filter in place that allows individuals to filter their own chat. If there are words that are not in the optional filter that someone thinks should be in there, I feel they are totally justified in requesting they be added.
Perhaps once AoC launches, we will have a similar situation that we had with earlier versions of WoW, where your reputation on a server was everything. If you cheated, stole, ninja-looted, or were otherwise a nuisance, word quickly spread about your poor reputation and eventually you boxed yourself out of find a decent group or guild in the future. After all, no one wants to play with someone actively ruining the game for everyone.
Back in Vanilla WOW, you were able to say anything and everything. If you abused this and abused or harassed someone, they would ban you in increasing increments of time ( I know from personal experiences....I was a shitty kid then). The punishment scaled and ultimately we all learned to type just enough to not get banned but it still upset some people. GM's at the time would then just tell people, if you don't like it, turn on the profanity filter.
I hope for the method above. I understand, from a financial perspective, what it may cost to pay employees to essentially babysit. Maybe a mandatory filter might be more cost effective....and I am ok with that too if they add it.
People should not be overly sensitive and people should not be overly toxic. We will be a community that revolves around open world pvp, an immense trade market, and destroying each others things. Speak through actions, not through toxic (and childish) comments IMO.
You could have high mentorship ranked / exemplary players form a [insert word here that I can't remember in neither language - group, union, etc but those aren't it] to be in-game GM's or if that is too much "power", have them review report cases and decide penalty. I think having the resolutions and reasoning public make it so people can see examples of what happened and how it's been decided. Whether they agree or not with the final decision, it sets precedents and examples of what to do and what not to do, and the according 'punishment'.
Personally, I'm not in favor of this. I think nowadays everyone is being a baby and they need to get over it. However, I also understand that many people use the "power of anonymity/internet/games" and abuse it to just be a shit person overall, thus needing some system to counter it. And I understand this idea might end up in the slippery slope of "a group of people decide what's wrong or right". Sadly that is something fundamental you can't get really get rid of. You either moderate, or don't moderate at all. Technically speaking, them banning you for saying awful things, is already a form of moderation. However, contextually, is something somewhat needed and completely understandable. Think of "prison for crimes" in real life. You can temper this by having an actually diverse group of people that could even disagree with each other, that's the best case.
Overall, I would be ok with a heavy moderation on heavy/explicit harassment, abuse or racisms/xenophobia/homophobia, but nothing else on the rest. A la old school. Offended people will eventually leave or form their own group separated from it, so the average standard play experience would be ok for all the rest of people.
Sorry for the long post, it's kind of a complex topic imo since it touches on culture, social and personal behavior, responsibility and accountability which are no easy things to talk about lol. Hope I made some sense.
I know Blizzard recently created an issue for themselves by adding a mandatory chat filter on top of the one that is defaultly turned on for its users.
On character creation they have a filter that protects their users from a variety of unsavory words - and this filter can be toggled off, which most people do.
Now they've added an additional mandatory filter that just disallows the use of some of these words completely.
In addition to whatever censoring a game company feels they need in place you then have the added tools that allow players to permanently block anyone that has ever said anything that offends them.
In a static (non instanced) world like AoC where player communication is so important, my fear is that by the time people have blocked everyone that has ever offended them - there will be no open communication left.
I'm exaggerating a bit for the purpose of making a point, but how do you think AoC should address all of this?
The guy who makes posts complaining about not wanting to be PvP'd when he doesn't want to makes the post about people being to sensitive, lol.
Yes, it brings up an interesting point, that sometimes the game designers should NOT listen to the player base. The short term players, the ones who jump from game to game and complain about each one, don't do what they ask for. Those who follow short term trends, always wanting some new gimmick, don't do what they ask for.
Fortunately, I get the impression that Stephen knows this. That is why he started out with the 'Design Pillars" when he started this project. Also fortunately, he is solidly sticking with them.
I get concerned with how much this community says "Stephen said so and so" Ya'll really worshipping him like a jesus figure and I think he's great, but temper that reverence for a guy you don't really know and no single person is the genius progenitor of MMORPG ideas
I get concerned with how much this community says "Stephen said so and so" Ya'll really worshipping him like a jesus figure and I think he's great, but temper that reverence for a guy you don't really know and no single person is the genius progenitor of MMORPG ideas
When it comes to Ashes specifically he is the guy making all of the final calls. While I don't agree with all of his ideas, I agree with most of his ideas when it comes to Ashes. Most people on here push back on him hard when they see something they don't like. The awful family summoning system for example. Still he is the Jesue figure (If you want to call him that) when it comes to ashes.
Comments
In a game based so much on communication, long term relationships, reputation AND CONFLICT, not a lot will make sense if half the community can only hear the folks on their friends list.
Copy pasting attitudes and methods from 'the internet' is not going to help you 'in real life'.
Most kids and adults lack moral training, not to mention MANNERS. Discipline was vilified by the same breed of morons who now want to redefine and ban words.
Do you know why kids spout rotten things? Parents don't care. Worthless parents = worthless kids.
Lol this reads like a distant boomer uncle's facebook post
Let's not derail this conversation into "kids these days"
You're totally missing out, mate.
It should be an option to have a filter on or off.
If it's unfiltered and someone is harassing someone then I believe the community to punish him or why not put him at trial for his behavior in a town... that would be truly nice.
Would actually love to put down that banhammer (voiceban/chatban) for someone who's being a douche and just harassing a player.
I once had a guy start typing the song we are the champions after a world boss fight in guild wars and everyone started to join him. It was an amazing moment and why I love MMOs
What words exactly do you have an issue with these advocacy groups requesting a filter for? Sounds a lot like you're just ignorant and want to be ignorant openly
You didn't read a damn thing I said did you?
I said nothing about "forcing an ideology" and actually gave a reason why NOT to have a filter, that doesn't have to do with "i wanna say what I want cuz I wanna!"
I'm on your side dumbass, but after reading your replies, maybe I don't want to be...
"Love you!"
"Son of a Gun!"
would love to see the genuine confusion it could cause. Even better if it chooses words at random:
"If you slowly do that one more smelly time, I'm gonna gently kill you"
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I don't think he's going to go with an Adults Only rating for his MMORPG.
https://www.esrb.org/ratings/3173/Diablo/
I was 11 when Diablo 1 came out. It was my first online game. My parents seems mostly content with me fighting succubi with their tits hanging out, and dealing with random adults. Most of my friends had to wait for D2 when they were older. Even in the 90s parents were making these calls for their children. I am saying that a game with a mostly adult population should be expected to be an adult environment.
ESRB M might be a better target, but at the very least the filter should not be mandatory.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Or the best one
I will K word you!
Well I certainly don't want to come across that way. To better voice my position on this I just feel that further censorship is un-necessary when you already have a filter in place that allows individuals to filter their own chat. If there are words that are not in the optional filter that someone thinks should be in there, I feel they are totally justified in requesting they be added.
This is what I'm hoping for.
Reminds me of an old game (forgot the name), which had assassin as a class, but the word "ass" was censored by filters.
So the players talked about "loveloveins" all the time, but nobody ever mentioned assassins. Hmmm weird.
Dude!
I don't remember where, but there was a really sensitive one that did this:
"Did you finish it?" ---> "Did you fini** **?"
"It might not be open, I saw someone coming back" --> "It might not be o***, * *aw someone coming back"
You could have high mentorship ranked / exemplary players form a [insert word here that I can't remember in neither language - group, union, etc but those aren't it] to be in-game GM's or if that is too much "power", have them review report cases and decide penalty. I think having the resolutions and reasoning public make it so people can see examples of what happened and how it's been decided. Whether they agree or not with the final decision, it sets precedents and examples of what to do and what not to do, and the according 'punishment'.
Personally, I'm not in favor of this. I think nowadays everyone is being a baby and they need to get over it. However, I also understand that many people use the "power of anonymity/internet/games" and abuse it to just be a shit person overall, thus needing some system to counter it. And I understand this idea might end up in the slippery slope of "a group of people decide what's wrong or right". Sadly that is something fundamental you can't get really get rid of. You either moderate, or don't moderate at all. Technically speaking, them banning you for saying awful things, is already a form of moderation. However, contextually, is something somewhat needed and completely understandable. Think of "prison for crimes" in real life. You can temper this by having an actually diverse group of people that could even disagree with each other, that's the best case.
Overall, I would be ok with a heavy moderation on heavy/explicit harassment, abuse or racisms/xenophobia/homophobia, but nothing else on the rest. A la old school. Offended people will eventually leave or form their own group separated from it, so the average standard play experience would be ok for all the rest of people.
Sorry for the long post, it's kind of a complex topic imo since it touches on culture, social and personal behavior, responsibility and accountability which are no easy things to talk about lol. Hope I made some sense.
The guy who makes posts complaining about not wanting to be PvP'd when he doesn't want to makes the post about people being to sensitive, lol.
hm, maybe it was blade & soul? I remember all the players would refer to assassins as "Sins". Was always weird to me that they did that.
Fortunately, I get the impression that Stephen knows this. That is why he started out with the 'Design Pillars" when he started this project. Also fortunately, he is solidly sticking with them.
When it comes to Ashes specifically he is the guy making all of the final calls. While I don't agree with all of his ideas, I agree with most of his ideas when it comes to Ashes. Most people on here push back on him hard when they see something they don't like. The awful family summoning system for example. Still he is the Jesue figure (If you want to call him that) when it comes to ashes.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.