What's the point of levels if there are no level restrictions?
A steady and easier to balance progression path for the devs. (not just items, but skills/talents)
A way for players to gauge relative power at a glance.
As someone who prefers classless/leveless systems I do see the benefits and appeal of using levels in a RPG system.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2021
A progression of what?
I think the OP is wanting to have something that is closer to a historical sim, rather than a high fantasy RPG?
Fantasy RPGs are designed to follow the hero's journey...where you begin as some lowly peon and, through experience(s), not only learn more skills and abilities, but also gain access to better weapons and gear.
A person with low strength is not going to be able to properly wield a heavy crossbow or a heavy mace. Nor can just anyone fight proficiently while wearing chainmail or plate. That takes practice and experience.
And, in a high fantasy settings, gear is likely to have enchantments - which can actually come with restrictions based on experience. In MMORPGs experience is measured by levels.
A first level peon being able to immediately pull the sword out of the stone and proficiently wield Excalibur doesn't fit with great storytelling - especially not great high fantasy storytelling.
Ashes isn't intended to be as mundane as the real world.
So, yeah, gear is going to have progression.
Gear without progression, where anyone can used any gear they find is a great FPS...maybe.
That doesn't make for a very good high fantasy RPG.
I read "What's the point of levels if there are no item restrictions?".
That is my bad mate. I think we clearly agree based on your last response.
OP clearly wants a historical sim. In which case I would say I have had a lot of fun in life is feudal:your own, and mortal online 2 for that play style.
The harsh reality of multiplayer historical sim might be too much for someone who prioritizes immersion. A world where laws are not hard coded into existence, but instead only exist as abstract agreements between cooperating parties. Which is what happens if you go full immersion. You get a full loot world that is covered in bandits. Honest people clinging together to defend what little they have. The only way to truly succeed is to have a larger and more coordinated army... Like all of human history.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yeah... I mean,
MMORPGs draw a wide variety of fandom - not just players interested in playing an RPG in a high fantasy setting.
Some players, like Simurgh, prefer a low fantasy aesthetic. My co-host, Fantmx, prefers a low fantasy sim over a high fantasy RPG.
Ashes is probably at least a 9 out of 10 on the fantasy scale. It's rooted in Pathfinder rather than Conan, the Barbarian or even LOTR.
Not to ruffle any feathers, I do like the idea of items having skill requirements instead of strictly level requirements - it's essentially a soft level requirement but more flexible.
Puts focus on your build, not just your level.
not a massive issue though, to me.
I wish I were deep and tragic
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
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KarthosMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I mean, if your biggest issue is that level restrictions fuck with your RP, maybe you just aren't imaginative enough at RP?
Can't wear a helmet? RP reasons why you can't. Paladin needs to earn it first, Warrior broke it and it's being repaired, your elf ears bother you in a helmet so you sent off your mage hood for alterations, ect.
I find the problem solving method of "I don't like this, lets get rid of it" to be the result of a lazy mind, when sometimes, it's actually less work overall to just find a way to go around it.
Why dig a boulder out of the ground because it's in your way, when you can just walk to the side and around it?
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Big fat disagree. I want level restrictions on gear. And hopefully the leveling process will actually be lengthy like Steven has said, so we spend a decent amount of time in each set, and trying to get rare materials for the next set.
No. This whole pov wasn't even thought out, and it's very obvious this was done by a knee jerk "I don't like leveling" discussion that you had with friends or something. So again, no.
Wow, it's almost like you only read the title and not the short text I posted. I'm not against levels, I'm pro levels, just against the immersion of having items restrictions because of levels. Like saying, you can't hold this hammer because your level is too low, but not against the idea of wearing the hammer, but you don't deal the better damage than items on your levels.
I think the OP is wanting to have something that is closer to a historical sim, rather than a high fantasy RPG?
Fantasy RPGs are designed to follow the hero's journey...where you begin as some lowly peon and, through experience(s), not only learn more skills and abilities, but also gain access to better weapons and gear.
A person with low strength is not going to be able to properly wield a heavy crossbow or a heavy mace. Nor can just anyone fight proficiently while wearing chainmail or plate. That takes practice and experience.
And, in a high fantasy settings, gear is likely to have enchantments - which can actually come with restrictions based on experience. In MMORPGs experience is measured by levels.
A first level peon being able to immediately pull the sword out of the stone and proficiently wield Excalibur doesn't fit with great storytelling - especially not great high fantasy storytelling.
Ashes isn't intended to be as mundane as the real world.
So, yeah, gear is going to have progression.
Gear without progression, where anyone can used any gear they find is a great FPS...maybe.
That doesn't make for a very good high fantasy RPG.
Congrats, you wrote a text wall, but didn't read mine which was like half your wall post. No where I said restrictions shouldn't exist, I clearly mention we need a more lore friendly restrictions, instead of you can't equip this, you can equip this but you deal less damage than other similar weapons and deteriorates faster. My issues is that you can't hold a sword, because your level is too and something more lore friendly like D&D where you can't wear plate armor because you aren't strong enough.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
No. This whole pov wasn't even thought out, and it's very obvious this was done by a knee jerk "I don't like leveling" discussion that you had with friends or something. So again, no.
Wow, it's almost like you only read the title and not the short text I posted. I'm not against levels, I'm pro levels, just against the immersion of having items restrictions because of levels. Like saying, you can't hold this hammer because your level is too low, but not against the idea of wearing the hammer, but you don't deal the better damage than items on your levels.
Thats why I said to change the title
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
I mean, if your biggest issue is that level restrictions fuck with your RP, maybe you just aren't imaginative enough at RP?
Can't wear a helmet? RP reasons why you can't. Paladin needs to earn it first, Warrior broke it and it's being repaired, your elf ears bother you in a helmet so you sent off your mage hood for alterations, ect.
I find the problem solving method of "I don't like this, lets get rid of it" to be the result of a lazy mind, when sometimes, it's actually less work overall to just find a way to go around it.
Why dig a boulder out of the ground because it's in your way, when you can just walk to the side and around it?
It fucks with my immersion, not RP. Logically thinking nothing stops you from wearing a helmet. It's a high fantasy RPG, not a damn high science fiction VR fantasy RPG where you see semi transparent windows. I want to put on a damn helmet that is too high for me, but doesn't provide any high stats or benefits, if anything the opposite, it can break easily.
No. This whole pov wasn't even thought out, and it's very obvious this was done by a knee jerk "I don't like leveling" discussion that you had with friends or something. So again, no.
Wow, it's almost like you only read the title and not the short text I posted. I'm not against levels, I'm pro levels, just against the immersion of having items restrictions because of levels. Like saying, you can't hold this hammer because your level is too low, but not against the idea of wearing the hammer, but you don't deal the better damage than items on your levels.
Thats why I said to change the title
Nope, you make it sound that people should only read titles. That's so freaking wrong.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Are after the appearance of the item or just want to wear it I made it?
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
I disagree 100%. This system is fine, great even for single player games that are more one-dimensional like ARPGs or CRPGs. Because many other things are simple, and there's a lot of emphasis on carefully crafting a character, they can get away with complex gearing systems. An MMORPG, and especially Ashes of Creation, is by default really fucking complicated. You cannot have 64 classes where every ability can be augmented in different ways depending on your class combination AS WELL AS a gearing system that requires you to carefully allocate your stat points. It's too much for the average player, and MMOs need lots of players.
People are used to typical RPG leveling. Using typical RPG leveling makes the game much easier to understand for the average playerbase.
Is your suggestion more immersive? maybe. Does it allow for more detailed/complicated character gearing & progression? yes. Does that make it better? no.
I feel it's not immersive that I can't wear a helmet because my level isn't high enough. It makes no sense, same with armor. It goes to the body, what else do you need to know?
That being said, I agree some restrictions could be taken place. Instead of basing the restrictions toward levels, it should be based in some skills. Maybe a helmet is too heavy, same with armor. Think of it as D&D/Pathfinder where you need a minimum in Strength to wear some armor.
It'd make more sense to have items are locked behind stats than in levels, and the minimum at certain levels so it doesn't lock players out from using them any equipment, weapons, etc. It'd be more immersive and it'd make more sense that you can't use this sword because your strength isn't enough, you can't truly use a rapier because you lack the agility. And instead of just unable to equip them, they just don't benefit you, they either do less damage or you move very slow.
EDIT: Like what is a level? It doesn't make sense. So having a better lore friendly why we can't make use of weapons and gear. It would make more sense to have something like tuning to essence within armor and weapons. Like what we can tolerate or not, it means we can't wear them as it could damage us or we can't just make the most out of it.
You're telling me anyone can pick up mjolnir and just swing it around, fly and harness the power of Thor....just because it's another hammer? kindly gtfo.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Congrats, you wrote a text wall, but didn't read mine which was like half your wall post. No where I said restrictions shouldn't exist, I clearly mention we need a more lore friendly restrictions, instead of you can't equip this, you can equip this but you deal less damage than other similar weapons and deteriorates faster. My issues is that you can't hold a sword, because your level is too and something more lore friendly like D&D where you can't wear plate armor because you aren't strong enough.
Just because someone doesn’t agree with you doesn’t mean they didn’t read what you wrote.
Suspension of disbelief is way easier than the coding it would take to accomplish what you just asked for. It’s not worth the time and money spent.
To that degree, the vast majority of people don’t give a fuck that it fucks with your immersion.
Can’t please all of the people all of the time.
No matter what, there will be someone complaining that a video game is not realistic enough and breaks their immersion.
If it fucks with your immersion THAT much, you could try to find a game that has the mechanic you like... or do like Steven is doing and make the game you want with the features you want. I’m sure not one person would complain about anything breaking immersion.
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leameseMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If that is you opinion that's fine but this is a level based game and they 99.9% will not change that.
Short version: You might be looking at the "levels restrictions" topic a bit wrong, and all you want it's a different system, but you can never get rid of restrictions (unless you get rid of progression).
I understand where you are coming from, and I agree that I personally prefer penalties for lack of stats, rather than "levels". Lineage did this. If you equipped heavy armor and didn't have the knowledge/stat for it, you got penalized.
However, I don't mind levels either. It's an easy goal to aim for, and in the end besides the immersion or "the sense", gameplay wise it's literally the same. You are being restricted by some form of number, be it levels or be it stats. It's still a number that will make you not wear an armor.
A mix of both would be nice. I don't know if in AoC stats will go up automatically or we will be putting points. If it's the first one, then I'd say having "required levels" for armor, but also being able to wear it with penalties would be the best route. Meaning, sure, you could be max level and give best armor to your best friend at level 1 but he has a 95% decrease in mobility and the armor can only do so much. Going to a certain high level zone would be mean he'd get fucked up regardless. That, and other systems in place (like level desparity not giving XP) makes it so alt boost wouldn't be a thing anyway. They would only happen in ranges of say level 20 to 30, and that would happen anyway unless you restrict the game heavily.
But just like in real life, you don't have "levels". But you have an "age". Sometimes you're older and sometimes means you know more of something, but not always. And knowing more of something, doesn't mean you know more of everything. This is how you can see levels. As your age, and stats can be seen as "skills or abilities". You could be 40 years old and cook hot dogs only and order delivery, or be 25 and be a chef.
So in this case, what you would like is to have stats go up as you use something (i.e, sword or mace = more strength) like in other mmo's such as UO or games like KCD. Having this, makes it so regardless of your level you could be really proficient at something. However, being really proficient at one thing, is not the same as being proficient at 5 different things. Meaning the one who is proficient at 5 things has "Lived longer and done/learnt more", meaning they would be a higher level. KCD has this, you have stats, skills and a main level. But no matter the system, they all hinder you at some point in some shape or form in using an item - meaning in the end, done better or worse, more or less immersive, you'll have to "Level up".
Congrats, you wrote a text wall, but didn't read mine which was like half your wall post. No where I said restrictions shouldn't exist, I clearly mention we need a more lore friendly restrictions, instead of you can't equip this, you can equip this but you deal less damage than other similar weapons and deteriorates faster. My issues is that you can't hold a sword, because your level is too and something more lore friendly like D&D where you can't wear plate armor because you aren't strong enough.
Just because someone doesn’t agree with you doesn’t mean they didn’t read what you wrote.
Suspension of disbelief is way easier than the coding it would take to accomplish what you just asked for. It’s not worth the time and money spent.
To that degree, the vast majority of people don’t give a fuck that it fucks with your immersion.
Can’t please all of the people all of the time.
No matter what, there will be someone complaining that a video game is not realistic enough and breaks their immersion.
If it fucks with your immersion THAT much, you could try to find a game that has the mechanic you like... or do like Steven is doing and make the game you want with the features you want. I’m sure not one person would complain about anything breaking immersion.
I mean, you are actually agreeing with my statement that there needs to be restrictions to items, but you clearly said I don't want them. So I can safely assumed you didn't read what I wrote and it's not because you don't agree with what I stated, but you don't agree with me that you didn't read my text.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
As I said in my recent video on this topic, the ideas put forth in the OP are interesting but would require Intrepid to completely change how players get stronger. I personally feel it's not worth the time and effort to redesign the entire progression system just because having gear bound to character levels breaks the immersion.
There will always be a disconnect between immersion and gameplay, this is expected of any game. There have been a couple of games like Red Dead Redemption 2 that have tried to add in more immersion to the game, but then you take a huge hit in terms of gameplay.
Having stat requirements for gear is way too restrictive for the development.
If we’re taking immersion and realism, then surely gloves/boots/belts would require less STR to equip than a chest piece. In which case it gets all sorts of complicated when you can equip end game belts and boots before you can equip a chest piece.
It just doesn’t seem sensible for this game. It might work in D&D where stats aren’t increased by much if at all per level, but not in AoC.
Also in D&D you have a GM who decides what gear you get and when you get it. Not even closely comparable to an MMO like ashes, really.
Short version: You might be looking at the "levels restrictions" topic a bit wrong, and all you want it's a different system, but you can never get rid of restrictions (unless you get rid of progression).
I understand where you are coming from, and I agree that I personally prefer penalties for lack of stats, rather than "levels". Lineage did this. If you equipped heavy armor and didn't have the knowledge/stat for it, you got penalized.
However, I don't mind levels either. It's an easy goal to aim for, and in the end besides the immersion or "the sense", gameplay wise it's literally the same. You are being restricted by some form of number, be it levels or be it stats. It's still a number that will make you not wear an armor.
A mix of both would be nice. I don't know if in AoC stats will go up automatically or we will be putting points. If it's the first one, then I'd say having "required levels" for armor, but also being able to wear it with penalties would be the best route. Meaning, sure, you could be max level and give best armor to your best friend at level 1 but he has a 95% decrease in mobility and the armor can only do so much. Going to a certain high level zone would be mean he'd get fucked up regardless. That, and other systems in place (like level desparity not giving XP) makes it so alt boost wouldn't be a thing anyway. They would only happen in ranges of say level 20 to 30, and that would happen anyway unless you restrict the game heavily.
But just like in real life, you don't have "levels". But you have an "age". Sometimes you're older and sometimes means you know more of something, but not always. And knowing more of something, doesn't mean you know more of everything. This is how you can see levels. As your age, and stats can be seen as "skills or abilities". You could be 40 years old and cook hot dogs only and order delivery, or be 25 and be a chef.
So in this case, what you would like is to have stats go up as you use something (i.e, sword or mace = more strength) like in other mmo's such as UO or games like KCD. Having this, makes it so regardless of your level you could be really proficient at something. However, being really proficient at one thing, is not the same as being proficient at 5 different things. Meaning the one who is proficient at 5 things has "Lived longer and done/learnt more", meaning they would be a higher level. KCD has this, you have stats, skills and a main level. But no matter the system, they all hinder you at some point in some shape or form in using an item - meaning in the end, done better or worse, more or less immersive, you'll have to "Level up".
Short Version: I never said I want restrictions gone, I said I wanted level restrictions wrong and replaced with something that makes sense, lore wise.
They did said they want the game to be realistic, they could probably even add age to our characters. So I doubt age and levels could be linked together. It's more like Wisdom and Intelligence, the reason we learn is not because of what we experience and know, but rather of what we could comprehend. Like you said, 40 years old selling hot dogs or being 25 years old as a chef. Not because you have the knowledge doesn't mean you comprehend it, knowledge is only useful once we comprehend it and not always because one live longer means one experience more things or comprehended more things. And that's it, I didn't thought about it, but the skill I was missing is comprehension. If we comprehend the arts of using armor, because there is a difference taking damage and knowing how to take damage.
As I said in my recent video on this topic, the ideas put forth in the OP are interesting but would require Intrepid to completely change how players get stronger. I personally feel it's not worth the time and effort to redesign the entire progression system just because having gear bound to character levels breaks the immersion.
There will always be a disconnect between immersion and gameplay, this is expected of any game. There have been a couple of games like Red Dead Redemption 2 that have tried to add in more immersion to the game, but then you take a huge hit in terms of gameplay.
Or like how latisullivan said, Lineage did this, WoW had a similar system when it came to weapons which I had fun, it was a mastery system where you have to practice until you could use weapons and every time you level up you had to increase your mastery or else you will be missing often. It's not something new, if anything is more old school for MMO's.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
As I said in my recent video on this topic, the ideas put forth in the OP are interesting but would require Intrepid to completely change how players get stronger. I personally feel it's not worth the time and effort to redesign the entire progression system just because having gear bound to character levels breaks the immersion.
There will always be a disconnect between immersion and gameplay, this is expected of any game. There have been a couple of games like Red Dead Redemption 2 that have tried to add in more immersion to the game, but then you take a huge hit in terms of gameplay.
Or like how latisullivan said, Lineage did this, WoW had a similar system when it came to weapons which I had fun, it was a mastery system where you have to practice until you could use weapons and every time you level up you had to increase your mastery or else you will be missing often. It's not something new, if anything is more old school for MMO's.
Alright, let's talk about WoW's old weapon mastery system. Personally I hated it, and it's one of those things where immersion gets in the way of gameplay. Yes it makes sense that if you've only used a sword and shield, and you suddenly pick up a 2-handed axe, you'll be less good with the axe.
That said, it felt really REALLY bad to get a new weapon in the middle of a dungeon that you then couldn't use until you had grinded against low level mobs for hours first. Getting a new weapon should be an exciting and cool experience, not a "well shit, can't use this yet" type of deal.
And don't even get me started on the Kael'thas fight which forced the tanks to have to skill up their dagger skill in order to use the legendary dagger to use in that one single fight. Seriously, who thought that was a good idea????
Anyway, I'm glad they got rid of the weapon mastery mechanic in WoW.
As I said in my recent video on this topic, the ideas put forth in the OP are interesting but would require Intrepid to completely change how players get stronger. I personally feel it's not worth the time and effort to redesign the entire progression system just because having gear bound to character levels breaks the immersion.
There will always be a disconnect between immersion and gameplay, this is expected of any game. There have been a couple of games like Red Dead Redemption 2 that have tried to add in more immersion to the game, but then you take a huge hit in terms of gameplay.
Or like how latisullivan said, Lineage did this, WoW had a similar system when it came to weapons which I had fun, it was a mastery system where you have to practice until you could use weapons and every time you level up you had to increase your mastery or else you will be missing often. It's not something new, if anything is more old school for MMO's.
Alright, let's talk about WoW's old weapon mastery system. Personally I hated it, and it's one of those things where immersion gets in the way of gameplay. Yes it makes sense that if you've only used a sword and shield, and you suddenly pick up a 2-handed axe, you'll be less good with the axe.
That said, it felt really REALLY bad to get a new weapon in the middle of a dungeon that you then couldn't use until you had grinded against low level mobs for hours first. Getting a new weapon should be an exciting and cool experience, not a "well shit, can't use this yet" type of deal.
And don't even get me started on the Kael'thas fight which forced the tanks to have to skill up their dagger skill in order to use the legendary dagger to use in that one single fight. Seriously, who thought that was a good idea????
Anyway, I'm glad they got rid of the weapon mastery mechanic in WoW.
It was one of the reasons why I started to dislike WoW. I liked that old mastery system. It was immersive, it was fun and I believe most people who played back then responded negatively at the changes, it was the casuals who wanted that change. I like getting rewarded for my efforts. It's one of the reasons why WoW started going down to the shit hole, because it had rewards through putting effort.
Not entirely true, when I was handed a 9 mm and learned how to use it was fun, but when my dad let me shoot his 45, it felt weird and I had to practice, it was a huge difference. I find it exciting to learn something new I don't know and master it. This was part of the old magic from MMO's. Picking something and being a master at that at the get go is not only not immersive, but not rewarding at all.
As someone said, "you can't just be deserving, you have to be worthy". This is something MMO's lack nowadays, we get things too easy, things get replaced too easy. The game needs to slow down again, the game needs to give us something, but we need to be worthy to use it.
I did think it was a good idea to always master all weapons you could us, it was not that hard to do, it was time consuming, but what were you supposed to do with your free time?
Comments
A steady and easier to balance progression path for the devs. (not just items, but skills/talents)
A way for players to gauge relative power at a glance.
As someone who prefers classless/leveless systems I do see the benefits and appeal of using levels in a RPG system.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I think the OP is wanting to have something that is closer to a historical sim, rather than a high fantasy RPG?
Fantasy RPGs are designed to follow the hero's journey...where you begin as some lowly peon and, through experience(s), not only learn more skills and abilities, but also gain access to better weapons and gear.
A person with low strength is not going to be able to properly wield a heavy crossbow or a heavy mace. Nor can just anyone fight proficiently while wearing chainmail or plate. That takes practice and experience.
And, in a high fantasy settings, gear is likely to have enchantments - which can actually come with restrictions based on experience. In MMORPGs experience is measured by levels.
A first level peon being able to immediately pull the sword out of the stone and proficiently wield Excalibur doesn't fit with great storytelling - especially not great high fantasy storytelling.
Ashes isn't intended to be as mundane as the real world.
So, yeah, gear is going to have progression.
Gear without progression, where anyone can used any gear they find is a great FPS...maybe.
That doesn't make for a very good high fantasy RPG.
I read "What's the point of levels if there are no item restrictions?".
That is my bad mate. I think we clearly agree based on your last response.
OP clearly wants a historical sim. In which case I would say I have had a lot of fun in life is feudal:your own, and mortal online 2 for that play style.
The harsh reality of multiplayer historical sim might be too much for someone who prioritizes immersion. A world where laws are not hard coded into existence, but instead only exist as abstract agreements between cooperating parties. Which is what happens if you go full immersion. You get a full loot world that is covered in bandits. Honest people clinging together to defend what little they have. The only way to truly succeed is to have a larger and more coordinated army... Like all of human history.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
MMORPGs draw a wide variety of fandom - not just players interested in playing an RPG in a high fantasy setting.
Some players, like Simurgh, prefer a low fantasy aesthetic. My co-host, Fantmx, prefers a low fantasy sim over a high fantasy RPG.
Ashes is probably at least a 9 out of 10 on the fantasy scale. It's rooted in Pathfinder rather than Conan, the Barbarian or even LOTR.
Puts focus on your build, not just your level.
not a massive issue though, to me.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/262284#Comment_262284
Can't wear a helmet? RP reasons why you can't. Paladin needs to earn it first, Warrior broke it and it's being repaired, your elf ears bother you in a helmet so you sent off your mage hood for alterations, ect.
I find the problem solving method of "I don't like this, lets get rid of it" to be the result of a lazy mind, when sometimes, it's actually less work overall to just find a way to go around it.
Why dig a boulder out of the ground because it's in your way, when you can just walk to the side and around it?
Wow, it's almost like you only read the title and not the short text I posted. I'm not against levels, I'm pro levels, just against the immersion of having items restrictions because of levels. Like saying, you can't hold this hammer because your level is too low, but not against the idea of wearing the hammer, but you don't deal the better damage than items on your levels.
Congrats, you wrote a text wall, but didn't read mine which was like half your wall post. No where I said restrictions shouldn't exist, I clearly mention we need a more lore friendly restrictions, instead of you can't equip this, you can equip this but you deal less damage than other similar weapons and deteriorates faster. My issues is that you can't hold a sword, because your level is too and something more lore friendly like D&D where you can't wear plate armor because you aren't strong enough.
Thats why I said to change the title
Nope, you make it sound that people should only read titles. That's so freaking wrong.
People are used to typical RPG leveling. Using typical RPG leveling makes the game much easier to understand for the average playerbase.
Is your suggestion more immersive? maybe. Does it allow for more detailed/complicated character gearing & progression? yes. Does that make it better? no.
You're telling me anyone can pick up mjolnir and just swing it around, fly and harness the power of Thor....just because it's another hammer? kindly gtfo.
Suspension of disbelief is way easier than the coding it would take to accomplish what you just asked for. It’s not worth the time and money spent.
To that degree, the vast majority of people don’t give a fuck that it fucks with your immersion.
Can’t please all of the people all of the time.
No matter what, there will be someone complaining that a video game is not realistic enough and breaks their immersion.
If it fucks with your immersion THAT much, you could try to find a game that has the mechanic you like... or do like Steven is doing and make the game you want with the features you want. I’m sure not one person would complain about anything breaking immersion.
You can add .1 to that. I'm confident.
I understand where you are coming from, and I agree that I personally prefer penalties for lack of stats, rather than "levels". Lineage did this. If you equipped heavy armor and didn't have the knowledge/stat for it, you got penalized.
However, I don't mind levels either. It's an easy goal to aim for, and in the end besides the immersion or "the sense", gameplay wise it's literally the same. You are being restricted by some form of number, be it levels or be it stats. It's still a number that will make you not wear an armor.
A mix of both would be nice. I don't know if in AoC stats will go up automatically or we will be putting points. If it's the first one, then I'd say having "required levels" for armor, but also being able to wear it with penalties would be the best route. Meaning, sure, you could be max level and give best armor to your best friend at level 1 but he has a 95% decrease in mobility and the armor can only do so much. Going to a certain high level zone would be mean he'd get fucked up regardless. That, and other systems in place (like level desparity not giving XP) makes it so alt boost wouldn't be a thing anyway. They would only happen in ranges of say level 20 to 30, and that would happen anyway unless you restrict the game heavily.
But just like in real life, you don't have "levels". But you have an "age". Sometimes you're older and sometimes means you know more of something, but not always. And knowing more of something, doesn't mean you know more of everything. This is how you can see levels. As your age, and stats can be seen as "skills or abilities". You could be 40 years old and cook hot dogs only and order delivery, or be 25 and be a chef.
So in this case, what you would like is to have stats go up as you use something (i.e, sword or mace = more strength) like in other mmo's such as UO or games like KCD. Having this, makes it so regardless of your level you could be really proficient at something. However, being really proficient at one thing, is not the same as being proficient at 5 different things. Meaning the one who is proficient at 5 things has "Lived longer and done/learnt more", meaning they would be a higher level. KCD has this, you have stats, skills and a main level. But no matter the system, they all hinder you at some point in some shape or form in using an item - meaning in the end, done better or worse, more or less immersive, you'll have to "Level up".
I mean, you are actually agreeing with my statement that there needs to be restrictions to items, but you clearly said I don't want them. So I can safely assumed you didn't read what I wrote and it's not because you don't agree with what I stated, but you don't agree with me that you didn't read my text.
There will always be a disconnect between immersion and gameplay, this is expected of any game. There have been a couple of games like Red Dead Redemption 2 that have tried to add in more immersion to the game, but then you take a huge hit in terms of gameplay.
If we’re taking immersion and realism, then surely gloves/boots/belts would require less STR to equip than a chest piece. In which case it gets all sorts of complicated when you can equip end game belts and boots before you can equip a chest piece.
It just doesn’t seem sensible for this game. It might work in D&D where stats aren’t increased by much if at all per level, but not in AoC.
Also in D&D you have a GM who decides what gear you get and when you get it. Not even closely comparable to an MMO like ashes, really.
Short Version: I never said I want restrictions gone, I said I wanted level restrictions wrong and replaced with something that makes sense, lore wise.
They did said they want the game to be realistic, they could probably even add age to our characters. So I doubt age and levels could be linked together. It's more like Wisdom and Intelligence, the reason we learn is not because of what we experience and know, but rather of what we could comprehend. Like you said, 40 years old selling hot dogs or being 25 years old as a chef. Not because you have the knowledge doesn't mean you comprehend it, knowledge is only useful once we comprehend it and not always because one live longer means one experience more things or comprehended more things. And that's it, I didn't thought about it, but the skill I was missing is comprehension. If we comprehend the arts of using armor, because there is a difference taking damage and knowing how to take damage.
Or like how latisullivan said, Lineage did this, WoW had a similar system when it came to weapons which I had fun, it was a mastery system where you have to practice until you could use weapons and every time you level up you had to increase your mastery or else you will be missing often. It's not something new, if anything is more old school for MMO's.
Alright, let's talk about WoW's old weapon mastery system. Personally I hated it, and it's one of those things where immersion gets in the way of gameplay. Yes it makes sense that if you've only used a sword and shield, and you suddenly pick up a 2-handed axe, you'll be less good with the axe.
That said, it felt really REALLY bad to get a new weapon in the middle of a dungeon that you then couldn't use until you had grinded against low level mobs for hours first. Getting a new weapon should be an exciting and cool experience, not a "well shit, can't use this yet" type of deal.
And don't even get me started on the Kael'thas fight which forced the tanks to have to skill up their dagger skill in order to use the legendary dagger to use in that one single fight. Seriously, who thought that was a good idea????
Anyway, I'm glad they got rid of the weapon mastery mechanic in WoW.
It was one of the reasons why I started to dislike WoW. I liked that old mastery system. It was immersive, it was fun and I believe most people who played back then responded negatively at the changes, it was the casuals who wanted that change. I like getting rewarded for my efforts. It's one of the reasons why WoW started going down to the shit hole, because it had rewards through putting effort.
Not entirely true, when I was handed a 9 mm and learned how to use it was fun, but when my dad let me shoot his 45, it felt weird and I had to practice, it was a huge difference. I find it exciting to learn something new I don't know and master it. This was part of the old magic from MMO's. Picking something and being a master at that at the get go is not only not immersive, but not rewarding at all.
As someone said, "you can't just be deserving, you have to be worthy". This is something MMO's lack nowadays, we get things too easy, things get replaced too easy. The game needs to slow down again, the game needs to give us something, but we need to be worthy to use it.
I did think it was a good idea to always master all weapons you could us, it was not that hard to do, it was time consuming, but what were you supposed to do with your free time?