Items should not have level restrictions

ViBunjaViBunja Member
edited April 26 in General Discussion
I feel it's not immersive that I can't wear a helmet because my level isn't high enough. It makes no sense, same with armor. It goes to the body, what else do you need to know?

That being said, I agree some restrictions could be taken place. Instead of basing the restrictions toward levels, it should be based in some skills. Maybe a helmet is too heavy, same with armor. Think of it as D&D/Pathfinder where you need a minimum in Strength to wear some armor.

It'd make more sense to have items are locked behind stats than in levels, and the minimum at certain levels so it doesn't lock players out from using them any equipment, weapons, etc. It'd be more immersive and it'd make more sense that you can't use this sword because your strength isn't enough, you can't truly use a rapier because you lack the agility. And instead of just unable to equip them, they just don't benefit you, they either do less damage or you move very slow.

EDIT: Like what is a level? It doesn't make sense. So having a better lore friendly why we can't make use of weapons and gear. It would make more sense to have something like tuning to essence within armor and weapons. Like what we can tolerate or not, it means we can't wear them as it could damage us or we can't just make the most out of it.
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Comments

  • 100% disagree
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member
    We're going relatively traditional in the gear access points by being driven by level tier that players will have access to. So as you advance in your adventuring class you will begin to unlock the ability to equip gear of a higher level.– Steven Sharif
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  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member
    Levels don't make sense if you want to go down the rabbit hole of what is more immersive and what is less immersive on the immersion spectrum. If we are going to have levels, which is the case. Then locking gear behind it makes as much sense as locking gear behind stats or anything else.

    If you want to use the D&D/pathfinder(d20) prospective. You would use much much lower numbers. The numbers in D&D/pathfinder soft cap low in older editions and hard cap low in 5E. This is because there is maximum amount of weight a human can carry in the case of the STR stat. The d20 system assumes that 10 is average and 20 is about the peak of "humans" (The d20 system is based on humans.). With that level of granularity you could have 10 tiers of a weapon that makes sense for a human to effectively use without making weapons for people who are less than average(people with 9 STR). This would just be a awful limitation for game designers of a MMO and players to deal with. Which is why Dungeons and dragons online (DDO) has characters with stats in the hundreds using the d20 system. Sure you could scale the system up to a d100 or even d1000 system to get more granularity. That might work, but it would not address the main issue.

    The immersive fact that many advanced fantasy materials are lighter than and stronger than anything that actually exists, and the whole using any sort of stat as a gate idea breaks down from an immersion prospective. The only stat you could actually use is something like the weapons skill. How skilled you are with swords determining what swords you can use. Which would also work, but has immersive flaws of its own. Like the fact that assuming all rapier's or short swords are their shape enough to be classified as the weapon they are. Then their is nothing stopping someone who is skilled with a specific weapon from using a poor quality one equally as well as the best version of that weapon that could exist. If anything it would be easier.

    TLDR: I don't think there is a good solution that solves for what items can be restricted in a RPG system because every system I have ever seen has a immersive problem. I listed a few examples, but there plenty of other systems that just don't align with reality, and thus are less immersive to me.
    CctsKnC.png Verra-similitude
  • I agree on the principle. I suppose you could hand wave it behind as your level increases your characters essence increases and you need a certain level of essence to use magic/enchanted items, locking off the highest quality items for balance.
  • FerniFerni Member
    edited April 26
    I disagree. I want a fun MMORPG, not a tedious inmersive simulator. Don't get my wrong, I want the game to be immersive but with some limitations.

    Why don't add a full food system where you have to balance your proteins, carbohydrates, etc. in order to be healthy. A disease system so your character could be unavailable some days when get sick. Chop a tree for 15 minutes then chop it again and get small logs to carry it to the city one by one or other "inmersive stuff". This things maybe will make the game more inmersive but also will make it tedious and boring in the long way.

    Levels is a simple way to tell that your character is not strong, intelligent, whatever to use that weapon/armor/stick, I don't feel like using a level system is gonna break my inmersion and don't think the game needs a stats system to manage what you can or cannot use.
  • ViBunjaViBunja Member
    Ferni wrote: »
    I disagree. I want a fun MMORPG, not a tedious inmersive simulator. Don't get my wrong, I want the game to be immersive but with some limitations.

    Why don't add a full food system where you have to balance your proteins, carbohydrates, etc. in order to be healthy. A disease system so your character could be unavailable some days when get sick. Chop a tree for 15 minutes then chop it again and get small logs to carry it to the city one by one or other "inmersive stuff". This things maybe will make the game more inmersive but also will make it tedious and boring in the long way.

    Levels is a simple way to tell that your character is not strong, intelligent, whatever to use that weapon/armor/stick, I don't feel like using a level system is gonna break my inmersion and don't think the game needs a stats system to manage what you can or cannot use.

    But that's the issue, this game has a great focus in immersion. Like bags you equip makes sense what you are carrying. You need mules, you can get married, you can't fast travel unless limited stuff. I'd have to say you are in the wrong game if you don't want a immersive simulator because AoC aims more towards that. And that is fun MMORPG. From what you want, it seems is just good old tank and spank.
  • ViBunjaViBunja Member
    BigRamble wrote: »
    I agree on the principle. I suppose you could hand wave it behind as your level increases your characters essence increases and you need a certain level of essence to use magic/enchanted items, locking off the highest quality items for balance.

    Yeh, or have them wear them, but can't use the most of it, so no level restrictions, but no big benefits. We could use D&D systems like tunning. Your essence is too low to tune to them would make more sense than I don't know how to equip a sword or a shield. Or I don't know how to wear a helmet. Item level is lazy design, I think having a meter like you mentioned essence would make more sense, of course they can wield them, but they shouldn't get benefits as well.
  • The problem with no level systems is that it means that a level 1 character can get boosted to have level 50 gear. Level restrictions are designed to help stop alt spam and bot spam.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Alpha One
    The problem with no level systems is that it means that a level 1 character can get boosted to have level 50 gear. Level restrictions are designed to help stop alt spam and bot spam.

    Basically this ^
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    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • ViBunjaViBunja Member
    The problem with no level systems is that it means that a level 1 character can get boosted to have level 50 gear. Level restrictions are designed to help stop alt spam and bot spam.

    IT seems like someone didn't read the text, and only read the title.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Alpha One
    edited April 26
    ViBunja wrote: »
    The problem with no level systems is that it means that a level 1 character can get boosted to have level 50 gear. Level restrictions are designed to help stop alt spam and bot spam.

    IT seems like someone didn't read the text, and only read the title.

    Then make the title fit what you are saying, otherwise, it comes off as clickbait
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • ViBunjaViBunja Member
    Nagash wrote: »
    ViBunja wrote: »
    The problem with no level systems is that it means that a level 1 character can get boosted to have level 50 gear. Level restrictions are designed to help stop alt spam and bot spam.

    IT seems like someone didn't read the text, and only read the title.

    The make the title fit what you are saying, otherwise it comes of as clickbate

    No, people should be forced to read, don't be lazy.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Alpha One
    edited April 26
    ViBunja wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    ViBunja wrote: »
    The problem with no level systems is that it means that a level 1 character can get boosted to have level 50 gear. Level restrictions are designed to help stop alt spam and bot spam.

    IT seems like someone didn't read the text, and only read the title.

    The make the title fit what you are saying, otherwise it comes of as clickbate

    No, people should be forced to read, don't be lazy.

    And thread makers should be clear
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • ViBunjaViBunja Member
    Nagash wrote: »
    ViBunja wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    ViBunja wrote: »
    The problem with no level systems is that it means that a level 1 character can get boosted to have level 50 gear. Level restrictions are designed to help stop alt spam and bot spam.

    IT seems like someone didn't read the text, and only read the title.

    The make the title fit what you are saying, otherwise it comes of as clickbate

    No, people should be forced to read, don't be lazy.

    And thread makers should be clear

    I'm clear, through the text. It aint' that much, anyone should be able to read it under a minute.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Alpha One
    edited April 26
    Ok here is the problem, you named the thread "Items should not have level restrictions" and then in your own text you write " I agree some restrictions could be taken place. Instead of basing the restrictions toward levels, it should be based in some skills." now that is not a contradiction, but the problem rises with how else are you meant to get these skills/stats without levelling up?
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • ViBunjaViBunja Member
    Nagash wrote: »
    Ok here is the problem, you named the thread "Items should not have level restrictions" and then in your own text you write " I agree some restrictions could be taken place. Instead of basing the restrictions toward levels, it should be based in some skills." now that is not a contradiction, but the problem rises with how else are you meant to get these skills/stats without levelling up?
    Level Restrictions no, but other type of restrictions that are more lore friendly. I think you are totally missing the point there.

  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Alpha One
    ViBunja wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    Ok here is the problem, you named the thread "Items should not have level restrictions" and then in your own text you write " I agree some restrictions could be taken place. Instead of basing the restrictions toward levels, it should be based in some skills." now that is not a contradiction, but the problem rises with how else are you meant to get these skills/stats without levelling up?
    Level Restrictions no, but other type of restrictions that are more lore friendly. I think you are totally missing the point there.

    I follow your point but I don't understand how you are meant to get these skills or stats without leveling up? If you can tell me a good way to do it then I'm all ears.
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    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • InixiaInixia Member
    edited April 26
    Item restrictions might not be completely thematic, but they create pacing in gameplay and content that is way easier to balance around than the devs trying to figure out how people can abuse various skill levels to overgear or by having higher level players carry them through dungeons or grind them up. Without those restrictions there is a lot of potential for abuse in things like pvp and pve at lower and mid level play. So I think level restrictions are worth it.
  • ViBunjaViBunja Member
    Inixia wrote: »
    Item restrictions might not be completely thematic, but they create pacing in gameplay and content that is way easier to balance around than the devs trying to figure out how people can abuse various skill levels to overgear or by having higher level players carry them through dungeons or grind them up. Without those restrictions there is a lot of potential for abuse in things like pvp and pve at lower and mid level play. So I think level restrictions are definitely worth it.

    That's why I suggested other methods in which, sure you can wear weapons and gear, but you don't get the full benefits from wearing them since it's not logical you don't know how to use a sword if all you use are swords. To avoid seeing a fighter saying: "I have no idea how to use sword." What are you holding on your other hand. "My trustworthy sword, you mean?"

    I said using other system that is thematically better and more lore friendly. In D&D you don't get any of this issues, however if you want to wear plate armor you need at least strength of 15, but can they wear it? Yes, they can, but they have a hard time moving. Or use the tuning system, anyone can use any weapon, but weapons and armor that need tuning and the player isn't capable of, can't tune to it don't get all the benefits. They just act like a normal weapon or sword at their current level, though like someone else said, it could deteriorate faster for they can't make the best use for it.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Alpha One
    And again how would you increase your stats to use said items?
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    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • McShaveMcShave Member
    I like the idea, but since you don't want knew players with the best gear killing players that have played for months, you could reduce the effectiveness of the better gear behind some sort of combat efficiency. This really doesn't change anything from the current system. Using the higher-end gear would be just as useless as not being high enough level to use it, but I guess you can put the gear on and look cool? This topic also goes with my idea of having combat levels separate from character levels, although I expect I would have to make my own game for my idea to be realized (or play OSRS lol).
  • ViBunjaViBunja Member
    McShave wrote: »
    I like the idea, but since you don't want knew players with the best gear killing players that have played for months, you could reduce the effectiveness of the better gear behind some sort of combat efficiency. This really doesn't change anything from the current system. Using the higher-end gear would be just as useless as not being high enough level to use it, but I guess you can put the gear on and look cool? This topic also goes with my idea of having combat levels separate from character levels, although I expect I would have to make my own game for my idea to be realized (or play OSRS lol).

    Yeh, this is exactly what I meant. They can wear it, but can't make use of it fully so it doesn't give them an advantage.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Alpha One
    Say a mage wants to wear heavy armour because it's the new meta but lacks the stats. how would he be able to get the stats to wear that armour without a debuff? If you say they cant then that's goes against the "anyone can use anything" idea of ashes
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    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • McShaveMcShave Member
    Nagash wrote: »
    Say a mage wants to wear heavy armour because it's the new meta but lacks the stats. how would he be able to get the stats to wear that armour without a debuff? If you say they cant then that's goes against the "anyone can use anything" idea of ashes

    I would expect that classes will still have the gear affinity, just like ashes is planning. But if a mage wanted to get better at the heavy armor, then they would put it on and then get wacked by mobs for a couple hours. A higher mob level will give more proficiency with the armor you are wearing. Similar to classic wow's weapon and armor skill.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Alpha One
    McShave wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    Say a mage wants to wear heavy armour because it's the new meta but lacks the stats. how would he be able to get the stats to wear that armour without a debuff? If you say they cant then that's goes against the "anyone can use anything" idea of ashes

    I would expect that classes will still have the gear affinity, just like ashes is planning. But if a mage wanted to get better at the heavy armor, then they would put it on and then get wacked by mobs for a couple hours. A higher mob level will give more proficiency with the armor you are wearing. Similar to classic wow's weapon and armor skill.

    so you would have another levelling up system for gear that increases as you use it. See I can get behind that but it's still leveling up.
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    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • McShaveMcShave Member
    Nagash wrote: »
    so you would have another levelling up system for gear that increases as you use it. See I can get behind that but it's still leveling up.

    haha, ya. Leveling up is the most important part of an rpg system, it's just how you level up and in what ways leveling up increases character power.
  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member
    edited April 26
    Nagash wrote: »
    McShave wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    Say a mage wants to wear heavy armour because it's the new meta but lacks the stats. how would he be able to get the stats to wear that armour without a debuff? If you say they cant then that's goes against the "anyone can use anything" idea of ashes

    I would expect that classes will still have the gear affinity, just like ashes is planning. But if a mage wanted to get better at the heavy armor, then they would put it on and then get wacked by mobs for a couple hours. A higher mob level will give more proficiency with the armor you are wearing. Similar to classic wow's weapon and armor skill.

    so you would have another levelling up system for gear that increases as you use it. See I can get behind that but it's still leveling up.

    You're making some good points in my opinion, @Nagash ... which the OP doesn't seem very interested in regardless of Steven's quote that the leveling system be "traditional".

    Not sure how much of the leveling system players will be able to test in the June Alpha-1 segment. Maybe we'll get a better idea then if the OP's idea would fit or juxtapose with what's already in the game.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I wonder if this imperfect analogy might be useful. 'Tanking' requires armor. Being a good Rogue requires stealth. What if the analogy was driving? A lvl 1 can drive a bike. A lvl 5 can drive a scooter, lvl 15 a motorcycle, lvl 20 a car, lvl 40 a bus or truck, lvl 60 a tractor-trailer combo. Each new vehicle requires more abilities to control and use.

    Perhaps we are seeing 'armor' as too generic a term. More complex and advanced armor requires more abilities and more strength to use. Driving a bike doesn't mean you can drive a semi, right?

    So I am favor of requiring levels of experience in order to use more advanced equipment. I agree this isn't a perfect comparison, btw.

    PS Notice I used a tractor-trailer combo as the most complicated to drive. I almost used driving a tank, but then I was afraid of twisting that other thread into this one as well. ;)
  • AntVictusAntVictus Member, Alpha One
    No. This whole pov wasn't even thought out, and it's very obvious this was done by a knee jerk "I don't like leveling" discussion that you had with friends or something. So again, no.
  • George BlackGeorge Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Items should not have lv restrictions in single player rpgs.
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