That's a nice ideal, but not how it works in practice.
In the same vein as "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game", people will spend money on things that are perceived as valuable if they have the opportunity.
In the same way it's on the developer to make optimizing fun out of a game harder to accomplish, it's on the developer to reduce the availability for people to spend money on cosmetics that diminish the value of the inherent values in the game.
See that's more about Pay to win or pay for convenience and ashes has none of that.[/quote]
Uhh. No I said purchasing cosmetics diminishes the value of in-game cosmetics. Nothing about pay to win or convenience.
Pro cosmetics crowd can never offer anything past "Don't like it don't buy it" or "I'm already aware it's a game" There's never a meaningful or well thought out post about how it's a good thing, because there isn't one to be made other than it helps cash flow and it still will NEVER be known to the players if cosmetics past kick starter will actually aid in improved/increased content. Even if the developer says it does, you don't know that and they have every incentive to overlook the negatives to get a pay raise, I just don't trust human nature here I genuinely need solid proof that the money from these is helping past launch.
We say that because its really that simple. I want you to look at MMOs in the past 20 years and fine me games that do NOT sell skins to players. I have no problem with skins as long as they are cosmetic (like ashes) and the moment they add PtW/PtC then I will complain.
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Pro cosmetics crowd can never offer anything past "Don't like it don't buy it" or "I'm already aware it's a game" There's never a meaningful or well thought out post about how it's a good thing, because there isn't one to be made other than it helps cash flow and it still will NEVER be known to the players if cosmetics past kick starter will actually aid in improved/increased content. Even if the developer says it does, you don't know that and they have every incentive to overlook the negatives to get a pay raise, I just don't trust human nature here I genuinely need solid proof that the money from these is helping past launch.
At the end of the day it's a conscious decision to degrade the visual aspect of the game to make money when you other wise could have really satisfying power progression that is tied into visuals. but it's not seen that way unless you've junkied enough MMORPGs and take a step back to look at how negative they are.
To be fair, I have seen people argue that they want them for roleplay purposes, which is a valid argument. But my response to that is just add those in game as long as they fit the world.
But yes, everyone who argues for cash shop usually just says "it doesn't matter" or "I don't really care"
It's ridiculous how adamant they are about a position they have no stance in.
Again it tends to be subconscious in effect and if you're unable to see the bigger picture of it you're going to end up making simple arguments like "Game has axe and fireballs i'm aware it's game"
I'd rather make arguments like that than arguments like
If almost every player is running around looking like a molten dwarf or deity like figure you're gonna be VERY aware that you're playing a game
I mean, if I am playing a game and I am not aware that I am playing a game, I would argue that the game in question fails at being a good game. Being VERY aware that I am playing a game is a pre-requisite for me to consider a game to be a good game.
The reason I know you're either trolling or not thinking it through is because you can't seem to grasp the idea that every good game has a sense of continuity in it, things make sense within it's own world, cosmetics break this flow.
You can't make that argument. Saying that implies that it only effects you if you choose to partake in it, but that's not the case. Cosmetics have an impact on the entire world whether you choose to buy them or not. HOWEVER, if they give us the ability to toggle cosmetics off, then you would be correct in saying this.
I can and I did.
Ashes of creation has skins nothing more nothing less. they do not effect the game and if you don't like that then don't play
Is that the best you've got? I mean you "can" say it, but it doesn't make any sense, you've got no legs to stand on. Chances are you'll end up quitting when your node gets deleveled.
Pro cosmetics crowd can never offer anything past "Don't like it don't buy it" or "I'm already aware it's a game" There's never a meaningful or well thought out post about how it's a good thing, because there isn't one to be made other than it helps cash flow and it still will NEVER be known to the players if cosmetics past kick starter will actually aid in improved/increased content. Even if the developer says it does, you don't know that and they have every incentive to overlook the negatives to get a pay raise, I just don't trust human nature here I genuinely need solid proof that the money from these is helping past launch.
We say that because its really that simple. I want you to look at MMOs in the past 20 years and fine me games that do NOT sell skins to players. I have no problem with skins as long as they are cosmetic (like ashes) and the moment they add PtW/PtC then I will complain.
Lol. The entire MMO community is aware that MMO's have been shit for a long time. It's why there are so many people hopeful about ashes, even calling it their "Last hope"
One could make the argument that cash shop cosmetics is one of the reasons MMO's have become the way they are.
I personally believe it's a big reason. The studios start to spend more time on whales then they do on innovation, and they only dig further into that hole.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yea because we've never seen a studio slowly slip down that slippery slope before...
I know what you mean and if they did change their policy then I would be 100% against it. yet intrepid is a crowdfunded game that has listened to the community and has made changes based on feed back. I know other companies have changed but I have trust in intrepid.
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Yea because we've never seen a studio slowly slip down that slippery slope before...
...
yet intrepid is a crowdfunded game that has listened to the community and has made changes based on feed back
...
We've also seen that before too.
But yes, I'm with you there on hoping they will break the mold.
Edit: Even CDPR who was the gaming communities favourite and most "trusted" company delivered the sham that was Cyberpunk.
Respawn, which was praised for so long on having the only good cash shop in Titanfall 2, has overpriced Apex cash shop items which people are constantly complaining about.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yea because we've never seen a studio slowly slip down that slippery slope before...
...
yet intrepid is a crowdfunded game that has listened to the community and has made changes based on feed back
...
We've also seen that before too.
I know, hell I've been burnt before with that yet I believe that ashes will be better. I can't convince anyone that it will but I can only belive what I beilve and that is ashes will keep their word
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
2
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You can't make that argument. Saying that implies that it only effects you if you choose to partake in it, but that's not the case. Cosmetics have an impact on the entire world whether you choose to buy them or not. HOWEVER, if they give us the ability to toggle cosmetics off, then you would be correct in saying this.
I can and I did.
Ashes of creation has skins nothing more nothing less. they do not effect the game and if you don't like that then don't play
Is that the best you've got? I mean you "can" say it, but it doesn't make any sense, you've got no legs to stand on. Chances are you'll end up quitting when your node gets deleveled.
considering Ive been here from the start and I'm a backer I highly doubt that
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
I also thought there was a much more subtle call from that video that the mounts in the cash shop were unique with no mounts like them available in game. So using the Dredgehorn on sale now as an example, if there is a Dredgetrihorn in game, different colour scheme and three horns, then it is not the same artificial scarcity of the cash shop undermining the achievements in game but co-existing.
Yea because we've never seen a studio slowly slip down that slippery slope before...
...
yet intrepid is a crowdfunded game that has listened to the community and has made changes based on feed back
...
We've also seen that before too.
But yes, I'm with you there on hoping they will break the mold.
Edit: Even CDPR who was the gaming communities favourite and most "trusted" company delivered the sham that was Cyberpunk.
Respawn, which was praised for so long on having the only good cash shop in Titanfall 2, has overpriced Apex cash shop items which people are constantly complaining about.
There are two reasons to assume Ashes will be different to many other such games.
The first is the progress they are showing.
The second is the fact that Steven put his own money in to the game (I can never remember of it was $30,000,000 or $40,000,000).
For me, there is also the developers they have on staff, I have played many of the games they have produced, and am personally familiar with their specific work in many of those games - but I don't expect this to matter to anyone that hasn't played those games.
One could make the argument that cash shop cosmetics is one of the reasons MMO's have become the way they are.
I think they are one of the biggest reasons. I would rather pay 30 dollars a month to preserve the integrity of the game than 15 and a cash shop. I also would prefer they add a box cost.
One could make the argument that cash shop cosmetics is one of the reasons MMO's have become the way they are.
I think they are one of the biggest reasons. I would rather pay 30 dollars a month to preserve the integrity of the game than 15 and a cash shop. I also would prefer they add a box cost.
The call of the whales is too strong for many studios from many genres.
FPS's and many other genres have adopted the lootbox system and hero/gun cosmetics, and you see so many games coming out that are lootbox opening games encased in an addicting gameplay loop. And they always slowly ramp up the ridiculousness of it.
I'm willing to put my trust into Intrepid for now, but I'm expecting them to fall to it too. At worst I won't be disappointed, at best I'll be pleasantly surprised.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
One could make the argument that cash shop cosmetics is one of the reasons MMO's have become the way they are.
I think they are one of the biggest reasons. I would rather pay 30 dollars a month to preserve the integrity of the game than 15 and a cash shop. I also would prefer they add a box cost.
The call of the whales is too strong for many studios from many genres.
FPS's and many other genres have adopted the lootbox system and hero/gun cosmetics, and you see so many games coming out that are lootbox opening games encased in an addicting gameplay loop. And they always slowly ramp up the ridiculousness of it.
I'm willing to put my trust into Intrepid for now, but I'm expecting them to fall to it too. At worst I won't be disappointed, at best I'll be pleasantly surprised.
100% agree with you on that. Loot boxes are a blight
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
One could make the argument that cash shop cosmetics is one of the reasons MMO's have become the way they are.
I think they are one of the biggest reasons. I would rather pay 30 dollars a month to preserve the integrity of the game than 15 and a cash shop. I also would prefer they add a box cost.
$30 a month sub would go down well lol
0
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
One could make the argument that cash shop cosmetics is one of the reasons MMO's have become the way they are.
I think they are one of the biggest reasons. I would rather pay 30 dollars a month to preserve the integrity of the game than 15 and a cash shop. I also would prefer they add a box cost.
$30 a month sub would go down well lol
I have no idea who in their right mind would pay that much for a subscription
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
One could make the argument that cash shop cosmetics is one of the reasons MMO's have become the way they are.
I think they are one of the biggest reasons. I would rather pay 30 dollars a month to preserve the integrity of the game than 15 and a cash shop. I also would prefer they add a box cost.
$30 a month sub would go down well lol
I have no idea who in their right mind would pay that much for a subscription
But you're ready to pay hundreds of dollars at the cash shop.
One could make the argument that cash shop cosmetics is one of the reasons MMO's have become the way they are.
I think they are one of the biggest reasons. I would rather pay 30 dollars a month to preserve the integrity of the game than 15 and a cash shop. I also would prefer they add a box cost.
$30 a month sub would go down well lol
I have no idea who in their right mind would pay that much for a subscription
But you're ready to pay hundreds of dollars at the cash shop.
One could make the argument that cash shop cosmetics is one of the reasons MMO's have become the way they are.
I think they are one of the biggest reasons. I would rather pay 30 dollars a month to preserve the integrity of the game than 15 and a cash shop. I also would prefer they add a box cost.
$30 a month sub would go down well lol
I have no idea who in their right mind would pay that much for a subscription
But you're ready to pay hundreds of dollars at the cash shop.
As someone who hasn't spent a single dime on cosmetics, I have no issue with them existing.
Currently the higher prices on the cosmetics aren't necessarily because of the cosmetics. If we're honest, the real value lies in the access to Alpha and Beta keys and the free game time earned through that spending.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
One could make the argument that cash shop cosmetics is one of the reasons MMO's have become the way they are.
I think they are one of the biggest reasons. I would rather pay 30 dollars a month to preserve the integrity of the game than 15 and a cash shop. I also would prefer they add a box cost.
$30 a month sub would go down well lol
I have no idea who in their right mind would pay that much for a subscription
But you're ready to pay hundreds of dollars at the cash shop.
Which is optional and has no effect on the game A subscription on the other hand is needed to play the game
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
2
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2021
One of the things I like about the current shop is that, when I see a character using a skin with the specific colors used with the items in the current shop, I will understand that it's someone who was around before launch, so we have something more in common than with other players. It may be very likely that I know the player even if I don't recognize the character.
And that fosters in-game socialization.
One of the things I like about the current shop is that, when I see a character using a skin with the specific colors in the current shop, I will understand that it's someone who was around before launch, so we have something more in common than with other players. I may very likely know the player even if I don't recognize the character.
And that fosters in-game socialization.
That's a fair point, and I also enjoy those kinds of perks, hell I put stuff like that in the game I made for my beta testers.
Would you at least agree that a special title or even nameplate or nameplate border could accomplish the same thing while not detracting from the visual fidelity/immersive fidelity of the game?
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
One of the things I like about the current shop is that, when I see a character using a skin with the specific colors in the current shop, I will understand that it's someone who was around before launch, so we have something more in common than with other players. I may very likely know the player even if I don't recognize the character.
And that fosters in-game socialization.
That's a fair point, and I also enjoy those kinds of perks, hell I put stuff like that in the game I made for my beta testers.
Would you at least agree that a special title or even nameplate or nameplate border could accomplish the same thing while not detracting from the visual fidelity/immersive fidelity of the game?
Oh I would love to have a title in-game to show how old I am
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
One of the things I like about the current shop is that, when I see a character using a skin with the specific colors used with the items in the current shop, I will understand that it's someone who was around before launch, so we have something more in common than with other players. It may be very likely that I know the player even if I don't recognize the character.
And that fosters in-game socialization.
I think that's reaching a bit far to find a positive. But, i have less of a problem with the kick starter cosmetics and then the cash shop in the future. Limited time cosmetics for supporting the game at it's earliest makes sense to me, but again they have soooo many cosmetic packages now that it's kind of ruined the charm already and we aren't even at launch.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Would you at least agree that a special title or even nameplate or nameplate border could accomplish the same thing while not detracting from the visual fidelity/immersive fidelity of the game?
That would also be fine, too.
But, since I am fashion over function - the more fashion available, the better.
I will say that since I am fashion over function - cosmetic shop does feel like P2W to me. And I don't really see the difference.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Would you at least agree that a special title or even nameplate or nameplate border could accomplish the same thing while not detracting from the visual fidelity/immersive fidelity of the game?
That would also be fine, too.
But, since I am fashion over function - the more fashion available, the better.
Everyone knows end game in MMOs is the fashion game
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Would you at least agree that a special title or even nameplate or nameplate border could accomplish the same thing while not detracting from the visual fidelity/immersive fidelity of the game?
That would also be fine, too.
But, since I am fashion over function - the more fashion available, the better.
Everyone knows end game in MMOs is the fashion game
It is if there's hard to get great looking sets from in game achievements that aren't undermined by a cash shop! Also that's usually an attitude people who don't actually like playing the game have.
Comments
See that's more about Pay to win or pay for convenience and ashes has none of that.[/quote]
Uhh. No I said purchasing cosmetics diminishes the value of in-game cosmetics. Nothing about pay to win or convenience.
Yea because we've never seen a studio slowly slip down that slippery slope before...
We say that because its really that simple. I want you to look at MMOs in the past 20 years and fine me games that do NOT sell skins to players. I have no problem with skins as long as they are cosmetic (like ashes) and the moment they add PtW/PtC then I will complain.
To be fair, I have seen people argue that they want them for roleplay purposes, which is a valid argument. But my response to that is just add those in game as long as they fit the world.
But yes, everyone who argues for cash shop usually just says "it doesn't matter" or "I don't really care"
It's ridiculous how adamant they are about a position they have no stance in.
The reason I know you're either trolling or not thinking it through is because you can't seem to grasp the idea that every good game has a sense of continuity in it, things make sense within it's own world, cosmetics break this flow.
We would literally be complaining about everything if we did that, because literally everything has a slippery slope associated with it.
IMO, hold your complaints until there is a reason for it. There isn't a reason here yet. There may well be in the future - complain then.
Is that the best you've got? I mean you "can" say it, but it doesn't make any sense, you've got no legs to stand on. Chances are you'll end up quitting when your node gets deleveled.
Lol. The entire MMO community is aware that MMO's have been shit for a long time. It's why there are so many people hopeful about ashes, even calling it their "Last hope"
One could make the argument that cash shop cosmetics is one of the reasons MMO's have become the way they are.
I personally believe it's a big reason. The studios start to spend more time on whales then they do on innovation, and they only dig further into that hole.
I know what you mean and if they did change their policy then I would be 100% against it. yet intrepid is a crowdfunded game that has listened to the community and has made changes based on feed back. I know other companies have changed but I have trust in intrepid.
Cosmetics in general do not.
We've also seen that before too.
But yes, I'm with you there on hoping they will break the mold.
Edit: Even CDPR who was the gaming communities favourite and most "trusted" company delivered the sham that was Cyberpunk.
Respawn, which was praised for so long on having the only good cash shop in Titanfall 2, has overpriced Apex cash shop items which people are constantly complaining about.
I know, hell I've been burnt before with that yet I believe that ashes will be better. I can't convince anyone that it will but I can only belive what I beilve and that is ashes will keep their word
considering Ive been here from the start and I'm a backer I highly doubt that
There are two reasons to assume Ashes will be different to many other such games.
The first is the progress they are showing.
The second is the fact that Steven put his own money in to the game (I can never remember of it was $30,000,000 or $40,000,000).
For me, there is also the developers they have on staff, I have played many of the games they have produced, and am personally familiar with their specific work in many of those games - but I don't expect this to matter to anyone that hasn't played those games.
I think they are one of the biggest reasons. I would rather pay 30 dollars a month to preserve the integrity of the game than 15 and a cash shop. I also would prefer they add a box cost.
The call of the whales is too strong for many studios from many genres.
FPS's and many other genres have adopted the lootbox system and hero/gun cosmetics, and you see so many games coming out that are lootbox opening games encased in an addicting gameplay loop. And they always slowly ramp up the ridiculousness of it.
I'm willing to put my trust into Intrepid for now, but I'm expecting them to fall to it too. At worst I won't be disappointed, at best I'll be pleasantly surprised.
100% agree with you on that. Loot boxes are a blight
$30 a month sub would go down well lol
I have no idea who in their right mind would pay that much for a subscription
But you're ready to pay hundreds of dollars at the cash shop.
Well to be fair no one said that lol
As someone who hasn't spent a single dime on cosmetics, I have no issue with them existing.
Currently the higher prices on the cosmetics aren't necessarily because of the cosmetics. If we're honest, the real value lies in the access to Alpha and Beta keys and the free game time earned through that spending.
Which is optional and has no effect on the game A subscription on the other hand is needed to play the game
And that fosters in-game socialization.
That's a fair point, and I also enjoy those kinds of perks, hell I put stuff like that in the game I made for my beta testers.
Would you at least agree that a special title or even nameplate or nameplate border could accomplish the same thing while not detracting from the visual fidelity/immersive fidelity of the game?
Oh I would love to have a title in-game to show how old I am
I think that's reaching a bit far to find a positive. But, i have less of a problem with the kick starter cosmetics and then the cash shop in the future. Limited time cosmetics for supporting the game at it's earliest makes sense to me, but again they have soooo many cosmetic packages now that it's kind of ruined the charm already and we aren't even at launch.
But, since I am fashion over function - the more fashion available, the better.
I will say that since I am fashion over function - cosmetic shop does feel like P2W to me. And I don't really see the difference.
Everyone knows end game in MMOs is the fashion game
It is if there's hard to get great looking sets from in game achievements that aren't undermined by a cash shop! Also that's usually an attitude people who don't actually like playing the game have.