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No Transmogs!

Decoupling the connection between what your character's appearance and the gear their wearing immersion breaking in a PvE game, but in a game like Ashes of Creation which is supposed to have an emphasis on emergent world PvP encounters, seeing your opponent's gear is an important step in sizing them up for a potential fight, and transmogs allow for players to effectively hide their sets or, worse, make it appear that they're wearing weaker gear than what they actually have on.

I'm okay with cosmetics, but it should be variations on existing sets, like how the game is already set to have racial variations on all the various armor pieces, just add in cosmetic variations of certain armor pieces that you can apply with the cash shop item to retain the link between your character's appearance and their gear.
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Comments

  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Welcome to the forums.

    I regret to inform you that immersion is not the focus of the game. Having fun is. I used to be anti-transmog myself so I understand your concern more than most people will.

    The fact is that the wheels of transmogs have been in motion for years now with Ashes, and there are more people spinning those wheels in the direction of more transmogs than away from them.

    Here is what I did to cope in FFXIV/WOW. I found one outfit I liked, and wore that very outfit for years on end.
    The upside is that when a ugly ass raid tier comes out. I ain't even worried about it. They are just stats to me.

    It's that or learn to stop worrying and love to play dress up... XD
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • pgt1027pgt1027 Member
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Welcome to the forums.

    I regret to inform you that immersion is not the focus of the game. Having fun is. I used to be anti-transmog myself so I understand your concern more than most people will.

    The fact is that the wheels of transmogs have been in motion for years now with Ashes, and there are more people spinning those wheels in the direction of more transmogs than away from them.

    Here is what I did to cope in FFXIV/WOW. I found one outfit I liked, and wore that very outfit for years on end.
    The upside is that when a ugly ass raid tier comes out. I ain't even worried about it. They are just stats to me.

    It's that or learn to stop worrying and love to play dress up... XD
    You didn't read my whole post.

    It's more than just immersion. It's basically a cheat in open world PvP, where being able to see your opponents' armor is an important aspect of sizing them up before deciding to engage in a fight.

    Cosmetics are fine. Want your armor to have a special be a particular color or to have a unique skin? Go for it. But you shouldn't be able to appear to be wearing a set of armor that you're not actually wearing in a game that is supposed to have open world PvP as a core mechanic.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    You won't be able to see levels and such unless your in their party.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP

    Threat assessment

    Players will have a buff on their nameplate that indicates the gear set they are wearing. Other players will be able to see this buff by targeting that player at a distance.[20][21][22]

    This will indicate the type of gear (cloth, leather, plate) that they are predominantly wearing.[21]
    The border will indicate the level and quality of the tier set.[20][21][23]
    This also indicates if the gear is enchanted.[21][23]
    The developers believe that inspecting gear to obtain an exact equipment list or gear score may lead to "unwelcome behavior".[24]

    When you see a player approaching you and they're wearing a transmog you know you don't know if that person is a high damage mitigation against physical damage or against magical damage and essentially the way we overcome that is through you being able to target a player at a distance and they will have a buff that's present on them that you will see, which indicates that essentially the piece set that they are wearing. It is important for players to be able to ascertain from a threat assessment standpoint you know what they're going up against if they're actively checking that and that will be available.[22] – Steven Sharif

    Being by default able to see a person's "gear score" / equipment list... may cause unwelcome behavior.[24]
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2021
    pgt1027 wrote: »
    You didn't read my whole post.

    I forgot to address part of your argument, sorry.
    pgt1027 wrote: »
    It's more than just immersion. It's basically a cheat in open world PvP, where being able to see your opponents' armor is an important aspect of sizing them up before deciding to engage in a fight.

    Cosmetics are fine. Want your armor to have a special be a particular color or to have a unique skin? Go for it. But you shouldn't be able to appear to be wearing a set of armor that you're not actually wearing in a game that is supposed to have open world PvP as a core mechanic.

    They plan on having a visible buff to show what armor people are wearing. I am hoping you will be able to toggle it so the icon is visible on the name plates too. Right now we don't have much information to go on.
    The information will be available in some form.

    Edit: Or just read Bloodprophet's post above mine. It is perfectly explained there.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • pgt1027pgt1027 Member
    You won't be able to see levels and such unless your in their party.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP

    Threat assessment

    Players will have a buff on their nameplate that indicates the gear set they are wearing. Other players will be able to see this buff by targeting that player at a distance.[20][21][22]

    This will indicate the type of gear (cloth, leather, plate) that they are predominantly wearing.[21]
    The border will indicate the level and quality of the tier set.[20][21][23]
    This also indicates if the gear is enchanted.[21][23]
    The developers believe that inspecting gear to obtain an exact equipment list or gear score may lead to "unwelcome behavior".[24]

    When you see a player approaching you and they're wearing a transmog you know you don't know if that person is a high damage mitigation against physical damage or against magical damage and essentially the way we overcome that is through you being able to target a player at a distance and they will have a buff that's present on them that you will see, which indicates that essentially the piece set that they are wearing. It is important for players to be able to ascertain from a threat assessment standpoint you know what they're going up against if they're actively checking that and that will be available.[22] – Steven Sharif

    Being by default able to see a person's "gear score" / equipment list... may cause unwelcome behavior.[24]

    Oh well.

    Was fun.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    pgt1027 wrote: »
    You won't be able to see levels and such unless your in their party.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP

    Threat assessment

    Players will have a buff on their nameplate that indicates the gear set they are wearing. Other players will be able to see this buff by targeting that player at a distance.[20][21][22]

    This will indicate the type of gear (cloth, leather, plate) that they are predominantly wearing.[21]
    The border will indicate the level and quality of the tier set.[20][21][23]
    This also indicates if the gear is enchanted.[21][23]
    The developers believe that inspecting gear to obtain an exact equipment list or gear score may lead to "unwelcome behavior".[24]

    When you see a player approaching you and they're wearing a transmog you know you don't know if that person is a high damage mitigation against physical damage or against magical damage and essentially the way we overcome that is through you being able to target a player at a distance and they will have a buff that's present on them that you will see, which indicates that essentially the piece set that they are wearing. It is important for players to be able to ascertain from a threat assessment standpoint you know what they're going up against if they're actively checking that and that will be available.[22] – Steven Sharif

    Being by default able to see a person's "gear score" / equipment list... may cause unwelcome behavior.[24]

    Oh well.

    Was fun.

    Best answer is wait and see how it plays. We have very little data on how this will work in reality at this point.
    Try again closer to launch and see how it is.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • Noble VainNoble Vain Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I think transmogs should absolutely be allowed in non-pvp zones. In pvp-enabled areas they should be automatically disabled so you can keep your outfit the same without having to constantly change it. Runescape 3 does this effectively for example where your cosmetic items/gear de-activate when in a pvp environment but re-activate when you leave it. Just food for thought.
    "Man cannot remake himself without suffering, for he is both the marble and the sculptor" -Alexis Carrell
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member
    Do you wanna refund everyone that has bought a cosmetic skin?

    Didn't think so.

    Either way, as most have pointed out, there will be ways to assess threats regardless of how they appear to look to you at first.

    Or you can just take the gamble and have a good story to tell later.
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Do you wanna refund everyone that has bought a cosmetic skin?

    Didn't think so.

    Take that point on tour! Starting with this thread:
    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/49201/ashes-of-creation-fiery-chaos-freeholds-in-your-grassy-fields#latest
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Do you wanna refund everyone that has bought a cosmetic skin?

    Didn't think so.

    Take that point on tour! Starting with this thread:
    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/49201/ashes-of-creation-fiery-chaos-freeholds-in-your-grassy-fields#latest

    I went and read it and yeah... might go repost it there.
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2021
    I believe immersion is a key aspect of Ashes of Creation.
    But, Ashes of Creation is a high fantasy setting. And one with a high amount of magic.
    Ashes comes with tons of illusions available, so gear appearance will not necessarily be a primary method of sizing up opponents. Ashes has transmogs and skins.
    (Illusions auto-breaking when combat is initiated is more immersion-breaking and more of a cheat than transmogs. There should be something more specific that breaks an illusion than merely entering into combat. Maybe 10% or more damage. That's focusing more on game combat than on the RP. And Ashes is an RPG with combat rather than a combat game with a bit of RP.)

    In addition to what Vhaeyne has already mentioned, another method of sizing up opponents in Ashes is by recognizing abilities and augments.
  • pgt1027pgt1027 Member
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Do you wanna refund everyone that has bought a cosmetic skin?

    Didn't think so.

    Either way, as most have pointed out, there will be ways to assess threats regardless of how they appear to look to you at first.

    Or you can just take the gamble and have a good story to tell later.

    You can do cosmetics without transmog. Armor sets are already supposed to have unique cosmetic skins based on the race that's wearing them. The same could be applied to cash shop cosmetics. A unique skin for armor sets that still correlates to a particular piece of gear.

    But, whatever, it's clear they've already planned to include transmogs to the point that they already have planned work around mechanics for a player's gear not appearing on their character. Alpha isn't even out yet and they're already beginning to compromise the consistency of the game world to hunt whales. What a shame.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    pgt1027 wrote: »
    You can do cosmetics without transmog. Armor sets are already supposed to have unique cosmetic skins based on the race that's wearing them. The same could be applied to cash shop cosmetics. A unique skin for armor sets that still correlates to a particular piece of gear.

    But, whatever, it's clear they've already planned to include transmogs to the point that they already have planned work around mechanics for a player's gear not appearing on their character. Alpha isn't even out yet and they're already beginning to compromise the consistency of the game world to hunt whales. What a shame.

    It has been this way since the Kickstarter. There were cosmetics in the Kickstarter. They have sold a cosmetics pack nearly every month since then. What is a shame is that the reality of the game having cosmetics is news to you.

    If anyone is getting into Ashes at this point and the fact that the game has cosmetics is a deal breaker. They were never really getting into Ashes to begin with.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • I'm in favour of things that bring money to IS. People like cosmetics.
    I mean, a warrior running in a dress is not my idea of immersion, but as long as I'm aware he's wearing plate, I'm good.
  • MrMilotMrMilot Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2021
    I will be Damocles in angel skin day one lv 1 riding a nightmare steed swinging my 12 metre flaming blade of death killing lv1 rabbits.
  • pgt1027pgt1027 Member
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    pgt1027 wrote: »
    You can do cosmetics without transmog. Armor sets are already supposed to have unique cosmetic skins based on the race that's wearing them. The same could be applied to cash shop cosmetics. A unique skin for armor sets that still correlates to a particular piece of gear.

    But, whatever, it's clear they've already planned to include transmogs to the point that they already have planned work around mechanics for a player's gear not appearing on their character. Alpha isn't even out yet and they're already beginning to compromise the consistency of the game world to hunt whales. What a shame.

    It has been this way since the Kickstarter. There were cosmetics in the Kickstarter. They have sold a cosmetics pack nearly every month since then. What is a shame is that the reality of the game having cosmetics is news to you.

    If anyone is getting into Ashes at this point and the fact that the game has cosmetics is a deal breaker. They were never really getting into Ashes to begin with.

    Why is it important to get "into" Ashes? I have no loyalty to any product or brand. Make something I want and I'll buy it, or don't and I won't.

    Already explained how cosmetics could work without the need for going to transmog, a mechanic introduced by Blizzard in the depths of their Cataclysm expansion, but whatever. They can hunt their whales.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    pgt1027 wrote: »
    Why is it important to get "into" Ashes? I have no loyalty to any product or brand. Make something I want and I'll buy it, or don't and I won't.

    Then don't buy Ashes if you don't want it.

    Easy day.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • RoelathRoelath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2021
    Wasn't it their intention to have a default asset be turned on for massive PvP battles to reduce the overall stress of rendering? Also with the shop selling skins not having a transmog for them would ultimately kill that as a revenue stream.
    pgt1027 wrote: »
    Why is it important to get "into" Ashes? I have no loyalty to any product or brand. Make something I want and I'll buy it, or don't and I won't.

    Already explained how cosmetics could work without the need for going to transmog, a mechanic introduced by Blizzard in the depths of their Cataclysm expansion, but whatever. They can hunt their whales.

    It might be whale hunting for the cosmetic collector but, with the no box price and only a sub required I'm sure they're looking towards having a revenue based stream off of both. With cosmetics being absolutely benign I don't really care.

    Now if it were something similar to a TBC boost to 30/58 that is something I can't accept. If the content is so wretched that a new player has to be ferried to the next piece it's time to fix the garbage. That's just a death of the community and the abandonment of early areas in favor expedience when the game itself in all aspects should be the point of playing.

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    There's a threshold for that, yes.
    But, probably at that point, we won't be paying much attention to what people are wearing.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    We have finally pushed through their 3rd line of defense. We only have to get past the defenses set up by their mages, and then the keep-

    HOLY CRAP LOOK HOW CUTE HER BOOTS ARE!!!
     
    Hhak63P.png
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited May 2021
    I am not against such views. I miss the times when people looked forward to craft higher lv gear. We looked awesome and threatening, with an instant projection of our class and playstyle.

    But it's 2021 and people have become comfortable in the concept of changing their appearance with the push of a button, so it's difficult for a studio to move away from customization. Plus, cosmetics bring on big money.

    Not gonna happen.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Also, there is an incredible number of people with bad taste. But what can you do? It's here to stay so better get over it.
  • rayleghraylegh Member
    Well, one thing I didn't liked about vanilla Wow is the fact that all the players had the exactly SAME set in late game. All the players seemed the same, and I always thought that people should wear what they want because the most important thing should be your permformance not the gear.

    I just wanted a bit of diversity, and personalization for the player. At least in a mmorpg I think it's important to have the option to decide. If you are tied directly to an speciffic set, only one for any class, for me breaks the immerssion. There shouldn't be a big problem if there were a lot of options and different late game sets, (in fact we are talking about a big world, there should be "a lot" of good and different ones) but it's understandable that from game design is a lot of work.

    So, for me transmog is not a bad thing. Otherwise give me the chance to choose from a few amount of sets not just one or two.
  • KesarakkKesarakk Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited May 2021
    pgt1027 wrote: »
    Decoupling the connection between what your character's appearance and the gear their wearing immersion breaking in a PvE game, but in a game like Ashes of Creation which is supposed to have an emphasis on emergent world PvP encounters, seeing your opponent's gear is an important step in sizing them up for a potential fight, and transmogs allow for players to effectively hide their sets or, worse, make it appear that they're wearing weaker gear than what they actually have on.

    I'm okay with cosmetics, but it should be variations on existing sets, like how the game is already set to have racial variations on all the various armor pieces, just add in cosmetic variations of certain armor pieces that you can apply with the cash shop item to retain the link between your character's appearance and their gear.


    I understand your frustration and not wanting transmog to be allowed. However, there are a couple of things that you have overlooked:

    1. When you remove the ability for players to customize their characters how they see fit, that in itself breaks immersion. Uniqueness is what many players strive for, not only to show off new gear but how they want to present themselves in-game. No one wants to look like other players, even in recolors. And certainly, no player wants to look at a character for 3-6 hours a day with nothing on but mixed-up questing and dungeon gear like they shopped at the Node's Good Will kiosk.

    2. This game focuses on Risk VS Reward. If you wish to fight with another player you are risking your own death, and even items. The flavor of organic pvp is enhanced because you don't know what the other player has up their sleeves. If you're the type of player that jumps on someone because you believe they are low level or an easy kill, then you have what is coming to you when that isn't the case. Likewise, if you dress "above your station", then you can't complain when someone wants to challenge you in a feat of strength.

    3. Being ok with cosmetics and variations of existing sets defeats the whole argument of allowing transmogs. If I'm able to change my appearance to look like a plague doctor on my Archwizard, is that not, in essence, hiding my sets, or worse, making it appear that I'm wearing weaker gear than what I actually have on? If that is the case, then following this logic, there would be no transmog of any type or cosmetics that could be applied to equipped gear.

    Again, I understand your frustration and see exactly why you dislike transmog. However, that opinion isn't shared with the majority of players. Most of us are grown adults who live busy lives and want to play games like this to forget about real life for a couple of hours. We would much rather dress our characters up as we see fit, with the looks we enjoy in a fantasy setting, and not bother with keeping visual references on how well a player can fight based off what gear they have on. Steven himself has stated he wants players to play with each other based on how they vibe together and their skill with their class, not a gear score.
  • KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    raylegh wrote: »
    Well, one thing I didn't liked about vanilla Wow is the fact that all the players had the exactly SAME set in late game. All the players seemed the same, and I always thought that people should wear what they want because the most important thing should be your permformance not the gear.

    I just wanted a bit of diversity, and personalization for the player. At least in a mmorpg I think it's important to have the option to decide. If you are tied directly to an speciffic set, only one for any class, for me breaks the immerssion. There shouldn't be a big problem if there were a lot of options and different late game sets, (in fact we are talking about a big world, there should be "a lot" of good and different ones) but it's understandable that from game design is a lot of work.

    So, for me transmog is not a bad thing. Otherwise give me the chance to choose from a few amount of sets not just one or two.

    Wow....it's been years since I played vanilla and reading your post reminded me that we did all look the same and I did hate that shit at the time. Seeing T1 and T2 pieces on other hunters was cool at first. Then seeing full T2 sets on everyone was trash.

    @pgt1027 The easy route is to just tell you not to play AoC but I that's not fair. You will end up enjoying this game with or without transmogs and you deserve to enjoy it. The main thing to remember is that there will be a way to strategically identify our enemies. While they may be wearing a bright pink mushroom helmet at level 1, they can still die. Intrepid has toned down pay to win all the way down to zero... I think we as a community can afford to give them a little leeway with cosmetics.
  • RoussynatorRoussynator Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Transmog is good for the fashionista out there, and since you can buy fashion cosmetic therefore there is going to be transmog option, we need to wait and see how it is in the game, for now with what steven said , the gear score in pvp is a good indicator.

    Plus everyone wants to be unique so transmog can help people not feeling like another 1 out of a million pawn wearing the same old ugly outfit. Tera shot themself in the leg when they didn't put transmog as an option which came later in the future.
  • GboltGbolt Member
    edited May 2021
    I agree with OP. I don't really care about transmogs, but I have problem that they gonna make PvP worse experience. As you can cheat with transmogs to make yourself look like you have powerful (or weak) or different type of gear than you are actually wearing.

    And that icon or whatever that will show your type of gear is kind of lame way to indicate what you are wearing (like robe/heavy/light and its tier or something).

    In a heat of a battle, the last thing you need is to click on every enemy and check his gear icon to see who you are fighting against..
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Sounds like risk vs reward to me.
    It's not the 1950's anymore. The biggest strongest guy on the field is not always the one to fear.
    Knowledge and skill trumps straight up strength.
    Personally I am against any kind of hints.
    Is they guy your about to jump a level 10 in transmog gear or 50 in top end gear.
    Roll the dice and find out.

    As others have said at first having the top gear in a game and showing it off is a cool flex on those that don't have it. But after a while everyone looks the same and it gets boring.

    Was one of my biggest issues with WoW couple of expansions back. You get the really cool one of a kind named weapon. Then turn the corner and a hundred other people have the exact same weapon and everyone looks exactly a like.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2021
    Yeah, when thousands of people are wearing the exact same BiS gear for their class... that doesn't really help with the flex.
    Especially now that reaching max level takes a several weeks rather than several months.
    Back in the day, it could take some people a year or more to reach max, so the flex was strong.

    Much better when characters look fairly unique. Or at least, are wearing gear that is indicative of the stories the players wish to tell.
  • RoussynatorRoussynator Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Sounds like risk vs reward to me.
    It's not the 1950's anymore. The biggest strongest guy on the field is not always the one to fear.
    Knowledge and skill trumps straight up strength.
    Personally I am against any kind of hints.
    Is they guy your about to jump a level 10 in transmog gear or 50 in top end gear.
    Roll the dice and find out.

    As others have said at first having the top gear in a game and showing it off is a cool flex on those that don't have it. But after a while everyone looks the same and it gets boring.

    Was one of my biggest issues with WoW couple of expansions back. You get the really cool one of a kind named weapon. Then turn the corner and a hundred other people have the exact same weapon and everyone looks exactly a like.

    I fully agree with that, numerous time i've outplayed better geared ennemies because I used the distance and environment to my advantage.
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