Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
I appreciate this part of being bound more to a location for crafting. Having access to your materials from just anywhere is a sure way of killing off a large amount of gameplay. Example, in Age of Conan at first, we did actual travel around the areas and brought what we needed for the journey, and when fast travel came, the world basically died out. So many people always go for the fastest and easiest way possible, but that is horribly damaging in the long run.
Compare it to looking up a question on Google, or going to the library and putting some effort in. Sure, you may get an answer faster, but you miss out on a trip, meeting people, working to find the answer and more.
I want a heavy focus on damage types and resistances... I don't want a "best weapon in the game", I want enemies and crafted armor to have significant resistances and weakness, when crafting an armor piece you can use different materials in the recipe to add different properties to the armor for example, if I use steel ingots in the recipe, I get up to 200 of blunt damage resistance and 150 of pierce damage resistance, but if I use an alloy of steel and fire crystals you can get 100 blunt damage resistance, 50 pierce damage resistance and up to 200 Fire damage resistance....same with weapons and damage types.... I don't want a "best gear in the game" at any point...all depends on what endgame content are you playing..if you want to explore an Ice cave you need ice resitant gear and fire weapons, but if you switch to the swamp raid you need to switch to poison resistant gear and pierce damage weapons to defeat the giant bugs there... that would add a lot more flavor to the world and give the crafters something to do, since every endgame warrior will need several types of weapons and armors to tackle different situations...
SWG was the best crafting and resource gathering. You could pick the quality of ingredients plus the upgrades added to an item during the crafting process. Also I would to pay a Tailor to make outfits for my character and he would craft diff outfits and color combos then meet me to deliver the order. Then I would try on the outfits...it made the game fun and encouraged interaction with the players.
1) Importance - is it actually viable to make a living selling things people use?
2) Time - Is crafting sufficiently gate-kept by effort/time? (ie: I can't just go grind out max level in a day if I have infinite money)
3) Access - Are you able to craft basically everything in the game outside of special items?
All these combined is basically old runescape. I was fascinated at the time by the idea that I could actually create all my weapons and armor if I wanted to. It was also kinda fun to sell niche market like selling iron armor to newer players for a relatively small sum or to just give out a set and make a new player's day with some banked materials you had already.
The other thing I really enjoyed about runescape is the granularity in skills. There was a skill for everything it seems like and each one had their own series of efforts and rewards.
Another system I always thought would be a good add on to crafting would be a questline attached to the craft, to unlock end game crafter gear as well as boss drops that were specifically tuned to crafting, With crafter specific skills, perks, passives also having both quest and enemy requirements to unlock.
In Dark Age of Camelot an Armorer could craft an Armor with no Stats in it.
The Stats like +5 Strenght come from Gems, from an Gemcrafter, which must be imbued in the craftet Armor.
The Quality of the Armor says how much Statpoints can be imbued in it.
With luck, you could "overload" the possible quantity of Statpoints. Higher Quality of Armor and Gems gives higher chance of the "overload" process.
In Everquest i like the easy minigames in the crafting process, in FF XIV these are a bit to annoying and difficult for me.
Multiple professions should exist.
There should be inter-profession dependencies for materials and parts for better kit. This should include rare patterns.
There should be pattern drop systems for rarer parts.
Players should only be able to specialise in one profession, unlocking the ability to use said patterns. They may be able to dip into a second as a non specialist.
There should be at least 4 levels of collected goods. Collectors may be able to pick up basic ores for example or some herbs with minimal to no skill. Taking a "minor" secondary specialisation should unlock the next tier. Taking a primary specialisation , the third tier. Having a pattern or learnt skill AND primary specialisation, the final tier.
This provides greater diversity and value for specialist gatherers. Inter profession dependencies for other trades will maintain higher interaction too.
My favourite crafting system has been the one from FFXIV. Crafting where you have to be a bit involved, and where it actually takes a little bit of skill from the player to perform is very fun to me.
I think it's also important for me that crafting resources and bountiful and fun to work with (for example you don't just work with the generic item "Wood" for 250 recipes, but rather you have like... "Pine Core Wood" or "Rough Lumber", "Refined Lumber", "Cedar Wood Planks" etc.)
The flavor of the items we craft with I think is very important for my enjoyment of crafting systems. I've crafted a lot, and do Legendary crafting in GW2 as well, and even though the crafting system itself isn't as *fun* as in FFXIV, I still love that system just purely because the creativity, neuance, life and sometimes even humor that's put into the materials makes them fun to obtain and fun to work with.
Crafting also needs to feel like it matters. The way you guys presented crafting in the early days sounded appealing, where the crafting jobs are fairly specialized and that you will *need* different people with different specialized skills in a community. So long as crafting holds some importance and relevance even in the lategame, I think the crafting system will be successful.
Games that don't do well with crafting are often the games where crafting is made for, as some people have said, the people that hate crafting. Crafting should be impactful, drive the economy, have fun components to work with and be fun to physically perform. A variety of items to make in the lategame is often also important.
If the only items I can make in the lategame is "Potion of Strength" and Potion of Magic", the crafting system will hold very little value and it won't be very imterresting to level it. If on the other hand, crafters can make caravels, mount armour, cosmetic items, high level armour, weapons, boats, clothes, furniture etc, crafting immediately becomes a lot more fun and engaging to work with.
An endgame of being able to crafting items that are always useful regardless of level (like cosmetics and furniture) makes for endless longievety in the crafting system.
Hope this provides some insight, and excuse my sentence structuring, I'm not a native speaker! ^^'
Mountains can have pick-axes with a torchlight gem or something embedded into the top so people can explore caves. Things like that. If travel and markets become too easy and interconnected stuff loses it's charm and uniqueness. A trading caravan going from one end of Verra to the other should have lots of weird and exotic fun weapons and armor and trinkets! At least to those that live in a certain region. Stuff that makes them think, you know this mountain dwarf pickaxe could be useful in that dungeon we have out here! Or that elven magic resistance stave can help on that boss!
And let them actually become known for that, like have crafters gain some sort of specialty with that they often create so it's more desirable.
Contents:
TLDR[url][/url]
I've been thinking about Crafting in MMO's for a couple of years on and off, Here is a overview of how i'd like to see a Gathering/processing/Crafting System
TLDR:
Gathering:
-Gatherable resources should be available to all players, so long as they have access to the necessary tools. (No Resource Tiers)
-Unique or Exotic Resources should require an Players to have access to specialized tools to be harvestable.
- Resources should have Higher Qualities . I.E. Impure Iron ore, Standard Iron Ore, Quality Iron ore .... etc.
-Instead of a standard linear gathering system, allow players to earn point on a Talent tree that allows them to gain unique traits, such as increased harvesting yield, faster harvesting times, % chance of looting a higher quality resources...etc. Additionally have milestone points for each resource where players can more easily track that resource.
Refining/Processing:
-Try to move away from the current model of higher tier resources requiring lower tier resources to process/refine
-Certain Refined Resources should require multiple gathered resources to be able to Refine/Process.
- Using different reagents to Refine/Processes should have a chance to upgrade a resources Quality.
Crafting:
-Crafting Recipes do not require preset resources, instead require resource types.
-Each resource has unique attributes that influence the crafted item
-Resource quality improves the modifier that resource give to weapons
-Crafters can make repair kits that repair items, however the temporarily reduce an items durability, this can be fixed by letting a crafter repair the item in town
-All items are learnt by recipes that can be either bought from NPC's or learnt from dismantling items
Upgrading:
-All items have a Single upgrade slot. this can be used as to give an item additional stats, Gem sockets, or enchants
Instead of focusing on a linear progression system when it comes to gatherable resources, all resources should be able to be gathered by players at any skill level so long as they have the appropriate gathering tools. The only factor limiting a gatherable resource from being harvested, should be the progression of a Node, as an example. A Tier 1 Node can have a vendor that sells players an axe that allows the to cut down Pine, while there is oak trees surrounding the node the players are yet to unlock the tool necessary to harvest oak trees. Once the players have advanced the node to tier 2 a new recipe becomes available to the players. Players can then craft the newer version of the Axe allowing to harvest both Pine and Oak trees. This process continues as Nodes improve, granting players ever increasing access to new resources, while also ensuring that newer players will have a wider suite of resources available to them. Unique or Exotic resources however should require the players to have a specialized tool, in order to be harvestable.
A resource aspect I have very much enjoyed is the internal tier system in Albion online. This system allows for players to mine various different tiers of a same resource, however there are many shortcomings i feel with the system, such as the fact that players are incapable of receiving a higher internal tier resource that the one that they are currently harvesting. Allowing players to harvest/gather a higher internal tier resource from their Gathering Node gives players a reason to mine lower internal tiered resources, instead of just ignoring them.
https://i.imgur.com/ty7QkQQ.jpg
(Multiple Tiers of a single Resource)
And lastly for the Gatherable Resource section. While almost all the resources are available to the players from the moment they are able to acquire the correct tool, that should not stop players from being able to gain proficiency with the Gathering/Harvesting Skill. Players should be able to earn experience in the relevant Gathering/Harvesting skill, allowing them to utilize a talent tree like system whereby they can purchase upgrades to their Gathering/Harvesting skill. Such as, increased amount of resources mined from each Resource Node, Increase the speed that they harvest resources, a % increased chance of mining a improved tier. If a Player Harvests/Gathers a specific node enough times they should be able to more easily track the resource either on their minimap or on their UI.
REFINING/PROCESSING:
Currently in most MMORPG's the Refining/Processing system is lacking. Many systems have Refining/Processing simply as a system that exists to simply transform Gathered/Harvested resources into used in crafting materials. Most Refining/Processing systems suffer from the effects of a linear progression system, as such they do not promote players trying out different methods of processing/refining their gathered/harvested resources, and due to their linear structure, many players do not have a need for lower tier resources once they have progressed their crafting skill beyond. Now many games have implemented a system that aims to make lower tier resources valuable by making them components required to create the next tier. As an example in Albion online to create an Iron bar a tier 4 resource, crafters must use 1 bronze bar a tier 3 resource.
https://i.imgur.com/vblPJBj.jpg
(Creating a Tier 4 Resource requires 1 Tier 3 Resource)
https://i.imgur.com/EDgw0eI.jpg
(Creating Tier 3 Fabric requires, Tier 2 Fabric)
While this system does create a demand for lower tier resources, it does not make the resource feel valuable, instead it make the resource feel like an artificially placed within their crafting recipe.
Instead of forcing players to use an item to refine a gathered/harvested resource, players should be able to choose the resource that they wish to use in conjunction to the resource that they wish to refine. Depending on the node level required the secondary resource can have a % increased chance to improve the quality of a Gathered/Harvested resource.
https://i.imgur.com/D5lfuRO.jpg
(Image of how the refining system screen would Look)
CRAFTING
Crafting in MMORPG's is the aspect of the game that generally feels as if it was worked on after every other aspect of the game was fleshed out, and is there simply to serve as a vector to allow players to create level equivalent gear. Additionally most crafting system in games limit the players to a single resource type fore their current level equivalent gear. In MMORPG's like world of Warcraft this nullifies older tier resources, in other games such as lineage II or the upcoming Amazon MMO New World, the older tiers resources are used in the creation of current tier resources, giving the older tiers some value.
An alternative to this old and in my honest opinion archaic system is to have all resources be viable for crafting, irrespective of the characters level. This can be achieved by giving each resource a modifier, which is transferred to the item crafted. As an example if a player wishes to make a level 10 greatsword, when they open up the recipe the greatsword has 3 components, Metal ingots, wood, and leather straps. Unlike most MMO crafting systems each individual component is left up to the crafter, this allows them the ability to truly create a custom weapon. continuing on with the example the crafter decides to use Copper ingots, Iron bark for the wood, and studded leather straps. each of these components has a unique modifier that they add to the weapon transforming it from its default state to a new and unique weapon.
https://i.imgur.com/zgLoAB9.jpg
(Image of how the Crafting system screen would Look)
Another common problem facing crafting in MMORPG's is that after a period of time crafting becomes redundant, outside of a few Crafting skills, which are commonly used to help augment a players strength. TO help alleviate this problem, players should no longer be able to repair their equipment at vendors, and instead can have their items repaired in 1 of 2 ways, the first way is by giving a crafter the base materials of the item and allowing them to repair it at a workshop. The second method is to allow crafters to create repair kits for character equipment, these repair kits come in 3-5 qualities. Whenever a player uses a repair kit on their item, the item suffers a temporary durability loss, equivalent to the quality of the repair kit. Lower quality repair kits will repair the item entirely but will cost an item a large portion of its durability, while a high quality repair kit will also repair an item to full durability, but will only reduce an items temporary durability by 1%. This temporary durability loss can be removed by allowing a crafter to repair the item in town. Crafter however will have access to a special craters only repair kit, this repair kit fully repairs an item, whilst costing the item no durability loss.
Finally recipes, when it comes to most MMO's recipes are learnt en masse from the Crafting skill trainer, instead the Crafting Skill trainer will gave several items available on them for players to learn however, the manner in which players are able to learn crafting recipes, is by taking various items found in the suhc as armor/weapons/potion, and paying the appropriate NPC to dismantle the item, gifting the player the recipe in return.
UPGRADING:
This is a personal thought, based on observing how many games continue to adds ever growing steps on how players may augment their items. All items when crafted have a single upgrade slot, this slot can be used to install a wide variety of upgrades. from simple one s such as using red dragons scales to improve a characters fire resistance. to more complicated ones, like allowing specialized crafters to install Rune housings into an item, (Jewels/Sockets) the number of sockets in the item is determined by the quality of materials used in the crafting of the upgrade. or alternatively players could choose to have the item enchanted, giving them access to a powerful upgrade, that lacks the flexibility of other upgrades. Characters could remove upgrades, after procuring a crafter with the appropriate item to remove the upgrade, the player who had the upgrade removed keeps the upgrade in their inventory, this is to reduce players needing to have multiple sets of gear.
Question.
I can see the issues of 2-3 hours only for gaming that many many live with. However, with many people having the limitations on how much they can play, would you not agree it would damage the game overall in the end, if all settings and systems are composed for people with a very limited amount of time to play?
Solution : Perhaps do some of the gathering IF you like it of course, but what about joining a guild where active crafters do the gathering for you, and you can explore the world instead or do sieges, and not burn valuable game time just grinding to get somewhere? I would have NO problem helping a guildmember get his materials, and i have done so on multiple occasions. I would love for you to get the value of YOUR time, as i would get by gathering, as it is part of a high value for me.
As in Hides and teeth/claws from animals, and not a leather helmet and a dagger.
1 feels like you earn it, the other feels like its given to you. Crafting needs to keep its relevance and can't be dropped with expansions, patches, or new content. Adding content is good, as long as it doesnt devalue old content to the point of irrelevance.
I like the idea of new content building from old content to maintain its relevance. Copper is important, and so is Tin - Hey now you can make bronze... but this mythril is made from a new mythril ore that didnt exist before. No - it needs to have existed, or it must be extremly rare, or you need to combine it with copper as well.
I love crafting, I enjoy what i have been hearing so far. Keep the repairing requirements etc. Please keep it relevant.
We've gone ahead and updated the original post in the thread here with some of your top feedback for our team!
I very much support the ideas in Toast's summary.
Some additional thoughts.
Key draws for me are a crafting system that offers:
1. relevance and utility - crafters want to be useful - as opposed to making vendor trash nobody needs (see WOW);
2. complexity - the more useful items we can produce and the more we can customise those items (eg. by using different material combinations or processes) the better - see the crafting in Mortal Online 2 as an example;
3. discovery - discovering a new recipe or a better way to make something is exciting. This is where I see a role for RNG. In addition to finding recipes in the world or as a result of crafting, this can also be achieved through allowing some experimentation with materials and processes - effectively unlocking hidden recipes through research. Crafters love experimenting and collecting useful info! - again see Mortal Online 2;
4. a sense of progress - grind is fine, but there has to be a sense of progress, even if gradual. I liked the UO system of improving through doing.
5. specialisation and the need to make choices - I would love to see a crafting system that allows skill gain both for a broad skill category (eg. blacksmithing) but also for narrower categories (eg. bladed weapons, and more specifically, say, daggers) - Albion Online has a version of this idea. Postponing the evil day when everyone has an alt that can make anything and everything is important.
6. personal journeys - let's say you want to improve your alchemy skills - or become the world's best lumberjack - or become an expert in using a particular type of wood, supporting these objectives with quests that unlock on reaching a crafting or gathering milestone - and lead you to a new recipe or skill or training would be great. Whilst basic skills should be accessible, there should be a sense of exploration and following your own path for higher skills.
Things to avoid.
In WOW for example, crafting has devolved into a race requiring all guild members to feed mats to a handful of crafters so that they can max out their crafting and produce high end stuff for the guild. Just about everything a crafter produces prior to reaching the high end is useless and the high end items are few, a cinch to make once you have the mats, and are quickly rendered redundant. It's a boring grind for everyone.
Maybe not so easy to avoid this entirely when guilds are trying to maximise progression, but maybe specialisation is part of the solution - as is keeping lower level crafted/gathered items relevant. The idea that any crafter can discover a new and more effective way to make something also might level the field a bit.
As 5 other people have already mentioned, the crafting system from Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is the most rewarding I have ever played. It makes crafting a skill that players can learn to do well, instead of just being a number in a character sheet.
If you don't know how it was, here is a video from 2012 that shows how it works (sound is not too good though):
if there is a family system in the game
why not a master disciple system in the game
a craftsman who is a blacksmith is different from another blacksmith
one blacksmith has the ability to create and the other craftsman to fix
the craft that is pyramidal
1 Royal Engineer
3 Master Engineers
9 Engineers
27 Foremen
81 Miner
to produce certain equipment more craftsmen and disciples are needed
hidden or very small professions
Please make a dynamic system that encourages at least a modicum of creative freedom in the crafting system, whether that be with the materials used in set recipes, or, if so inclined to go the extra mile, even implementing more advanced concepts where instead of a limited number of recipes, a more open-ended system that allows a craftsman to display their own unique products on the market adding another layer of complexity and enjoyment for both the crafters and their patrons.
There are countless ways crafting can be explored in games and so far I have been thoroughly disappointed at how rigid crafting systems in most games have been, I am looking forward to seeing what is brought in AOC and I hope it can revolutionize one of the more underrated, and yet enjoyable, aspects of gaming, especially in MMO's.
also the end crafting has no tailoring to make robes,sails,bags etc?
On one hand i feel like it can get too complex to quickly with the sheer number of professions.
On the other hand it trying to get players to interact with the market/each other but i feel if its too complex its just gonna force alts to fill the gaps because it is cheaper/easier/faster then relying on other players that could be inconsistent/unreliable.
Having said this dont make it mandatory as in, if you are a jewerel you have access to X type of jewels more powerfull than the remaining players and only you can use 'em etc etc..
Regarding crafting systems I've enjoyed I mainly had experience in two MMORPGS beeing WOW and FFXIV and I liked FFXIV more.. WOW like many said feels boring and not rewarding..
In this game I'm hoping to be a trader/crafter but still want to have some combat and adventure I think we should be able to do both.. although I dont disagree with some people when they say that to really hit top tier in crafting you kinda have to "let go" of combat buuuut if that was to happen I feel they should be kinda dependent on the players that actual fight to give them mats and work
For the tailoring, armor smithing, or other similar classes they can add their own pattern on the armor and can also add the dye, this can help promote their name/brand among players and attract more customers. The better their proficiency at their craft the better the product. And finally as they reach higher level they can add their own buffs to the weapons and the armor not making them overpowered but giving them special or unique look among others (idea is from overgeared manhwa). Weapons and armor created by a players can have their own description, a fun way of marketing.
Artisan classes are something which many games tend to ignore or not focus as much as they should. These classes bring a much needed immersion to games, not all people want to keep going to dungeons and get their butts kicked (definitely not speaking from experience).
And please let there not be the mind numbing grinding of wood and other materials/items, it's not a farming sim (I'd still play it even if it's a farming sim).
Love the work till now though, no complains. This is obviously the most ambitious project and the most awaited yet, you guys at interpid are working hard to accomplish something amazing and I which y'all the best of luck.