I can only speak to my limited MMO crafting experiance but:
[*] I like having clear quality levels of materials and reuse lower level materials in new ways for higher level processing/crafting.
[*] I like having ways to clearly sort stored mats.
[*] I don't like crafting being used to upgrade to finished items, especially systems like Neverwinter with an RNG fail chance that happens to have a cash shop chance improvement system advertised on the crafting screen.
[*] I do like componants to items to make a finished item, so a crafter can disassemble a sword that can receive a new blade, handle or guard to replace that component with a superior one. I also like socket systems for adding buffs to finished items.
[*] I hate having to break apart found items, especially highest end drops, to then break apart to RNG chance to learn the recipes. To reclaim mats sure but not for reverse engineering. I'd probably agree with this more if like the animal husbandry there was a system of researching X drop (Lets say sword with bleed attribute) with goal item (High end axe) to create goal with trait (High end axe with bleed attribute).
[*] I prefer to have a required tool to gather high end gear rather than level based. IE Nope, you're only level 29, you can't mine this high grade iron you found because you are not level 30. Maybe having to use a graded tools but the tool degrades more if character/tool are lower than the target level of the material being gathered would feel better. (Plus presumably there would be the local monsters of a level commensurate with high end gatherables nearby driving off too low leveled players unwilling to risk it).
[*] I'd prefer a system for processes and crafters that takes time (hours) but doesn't require presence as it still rewards heavy play and casuals, and gets the player back into the world to interact with other players.
[*] I like a variety of fields to specialize in crafting rather than a more pyramid of small number of high end powerful item recipes that heavily limit who can learn this level of crafting making monopolies.
[*] I like a variety of stats on items (Durability, Buffs, Resistances, stat bonuses, armor/dmg stat, crit chance/multiplier, speed/weight, length/size) that make a diversity of meta (and a sales/auction house system able to visually show this easily).
[*] I like the idea of a mini-games to refine better recipes but once mastered I fear repeition becomes busy work.
[*] I like the idea of having drop and node purchasable recipes but also having a system/minigame to do research on materials and goal target create new receipes. However this type of system would normally fail against the internet just listing all the recipes unless there was some kind of randomiser element/number attached to the individual character that had to be worked out by the game to crack the receipe.
I know a couple of these elements are present in the currently listed crafting plans on the wiki.
Ug I am long winded at night.
FFXIV's crafting system has been my favorite. It actually requires knowledge of the system and some skill/timing to get a good result instead of just clicking a button and waiting for something to craft. I spend a lot of time crafting in FFXIV, I think I've spent most of my time in that game fishing (which isn't crafting I know but it uses the same system as crafting)
Hands down the best crafting system to me was Star Wars Galaxies. The pursuit of the best possible components and the fact that every item crafted could be completely different in damage, durability, etc, was amazing. You could craft a economical version or a high end version. Enjoyed that a lot.
In most modern MMOs crafting feels like nothing more than additional character leveling. This isn't so much a question as a statement of what I feel were the best crafting systems I've seen even though I never really crafted. UO, EVE, SWG etc were kings in my book. You depended on crafted items from other players.
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KscoutbMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Mabinogi has my dream crafting and durability system.
1. Items can be repaired with a chance of max durability lost depending on the quality of the repairman. 2.Staple crafting materials have color variants that effect the color of the final models.
3.There are mini games that influence the final product quality.
4.Weapons have proficiency that is gained from weapon use to apply upgrades and potentially imbue them with a soul.
I don't know much about what was already said about the crafting system so I will just say I want specialization to matter and I would rather see it take many materials to make one interesting thing than a bunk of junk things.
So let's say you gather herbs first, you need to process them second, finally you turn them into potions. This three step process COULD be done by the same person, but would be more efficient if done by three, focusing in the different aspects. If you focus on the gathering part, you should be able to gather more, getting higher quality and have a chance of getting rare stuff. If you focus on processing, you can have a lower failure rates, high chances at better quality, and faster processing speeds. If you focus on finishing the process, you can have chance to create enhanced potions, chance to create multiple potions and a chance to learn new/altered potion recipes. In this system, you need others to be more efficient rather than doing it all solo.
Regarding the interesting item rather than trash... I mean that people remember crafting Sulfuras, people gathered in mass to watch it being crafted... no one cares about the trash random green gear that gets vendored. I would rather see it be, gather 100x ore (maybe 1hr of work), process them into 40 bars (2ore to 1 bar with some lost to failure), craft into 2 sets of gloves or one chest piece but either of these items should be meaningful to someone at the level requirement for them. (Like imagine a lvl10 green chest piece with 1% hit or crit on it, would be so much better than 100% chance at 2str/3stam or something like that)
To make crafting worth doing it has to have exclusive gear obviously but Another successful way to make it worth would be randomized stats, that way it's skill and a little bit of luck but also stops people from flooding the market with the same item. And it makes gathering resources to make the same weapon a little bit more enjoyable since the stats are always different. Though my favorite crafting system came from Albion, where you would master different equipment and had to work with the same type of weapon to grow higher in skill, then you'd specialize as well down the road to make even better weapons and gear.
Item management and crafting is the biggest pain. I love ESO for their endless crafting bag and being able to craft right from it. I get with Ashes you would need to be able to carry these supplies when you first harvest them. The risk for PvP needs to be real. But a deposit all when you get back to your house or bank would be awesome. Also, making it so you could only access them from your region would also make it fair for the caravan system. Crafting from your crafting bag would also have to be in the region you deposited it in. Would be nice if you could have a crafting vault like this in any region as long as you transported them there.
I also liked ESO on how crafting mats worked. You didnt out level mats, cloth was always used to make cloth items. But the added mats and skill made them more powerful. Having tones of low level crafting items filling up your banks is a pain. Make all mats useful no matter your level.
Item management and crafting is the biggest pain. I love ESO for their endless crafting bag and being able to craft right from it. I get with Ashes you would need to be able to carry these supplies when you first harvest them. The risk for PvP needs to be real. But a deposit all when you get back to your house or bank would be awesome. Also, making it so you could only access them from your region would also make it fair for the caravan system. Crafting from your crafting bag would also have to be in the region you deposited it in. Would be nice if you could have a crafting vault like this in any region as long as you transported them there.
I also liked ESO on how crafting mats worked. You didnt out level mats, cloth was always used to make cloth items. But the added mats and skill made them more powerful. Having tones of low level crafting items filling up your banks is a pain. Make all mats useful no matter your level.
I find item management the thorn in my side. This is just what I would love to see in the game or something like it to make it so I don't spend 30 min + every night doing item management.
All crafted items should be either useable in another recipe or sellable to vendors, or recyclable. (Grinding a recipe to level up your profession and ending up with hundreds of worthless items is frustrating.)
There should be several ways to craft an everyday item. (If you can only make wood glue from one variety of pine tree and one variety of fish, that creates a bottleneck. Have a few options for ingredients so that finding the resources you need for frequently used items is easier.)
Materials should have different properties from other similar resources. (Using one type of resource may give better stats than a different kind. Using red wood might give you +3 to Crit and +5 to Damage on weapons and +3 to carry weight and +5 to item space when used to craft a backpack. Using blue wood might give you totally different stats.)
Gatherers and Crafters should not have to struggle with backpack space issues. (Either having resource or crafting bags outside of your main pack is essential. Crafters will often carry many different types of items that quickly fill up their main bag. Having harvestables and parts either not counted in the backpack slot or kept in separate bags is very helpful.)
Beginner Tools should be free. (Charge for higher level tools but make beginner tools free. We don't want to have to kill 30 mobs just to be able to afford one set of tools and a fishing pole. Make them free and we'll get started harvesting and adding to the economy. We'll fight the mobs while we travel.)
Don't put a bunch of mobs on top of low level resources. (Sure, you can have Goblins camped out on a resource patch because it is valuable, but give the solo or duo crafters a chance to gather their own supplies when the market doesn't have them. Having to have a five minute fight just to harvest a few trees is not fun.)
Games like SWG and "The Repopulation" have extensive crafting systems that crafters like. Thanks for listening!
I'd like to implore you guys on the forums to not use Abbreviations when referring to proper nouns relating to MMO's. Not all of us have played every game in existence so I just simply don't know some of them that are unique to some games. xD
For crafting I have 2 favorites. FF14 and Ragnarok Online. FF14 completely reinvented crafting at it's core and changed how it works on the micro level that no other game ever did before. How you craft in that game is what is interesting as it works the same on a macro level as every other MMO. You are limited by bag space so you want to mostly focus on one to 3 at a time. However crafting in that game is more like entire crafting classes.
Just like in Ragnarok online. Ragnarok online does not have crafting as a set part of every character. There are classes that do nothing but crafting and you have to level them just like any other class. They generally suck more in combat than other classes, but are able to do the crafting no other classes can do.
In the end crafting is always the same on a macro level. Take an item and turn them into usable items or equipment. I would like it a lot more if mini games were associated with them. Like instead of clicking on a tree and waiting 3 seconds to gather the wood from the tree. You could play a mini game as you chop the tree that prompts you to press a button on the screen. You press it and it fills a progress bar. Once it's full you get the wood.
Fishing you can do what WoW does. Except tie it to a keyboard key. Watch a bobber, it moves you reel it in.
What's important for crafting is if doing it results in fun in some way. I wouldn't say any game ever made crafting fun itself though. Most make the results of crafting fun, but crafting itself boring as hell.
I do crafting when it results in an item I want. So the percentage varies so much. I only really did it in WoW the most since it rewarded you the most. Since it gave you mounts, pets, and visuals you could not get in any other way. When I wanted something 100% of the time to crafting. When I didn't then only about like 20%. I would do it while doing other things just to keep it leveled.
Hands down the best crafting system was Vanguard. Many reasons however I think perhaps the fact you had “styles” of armor based on the region and type you were from was powerful.
The feel was you were fighting an epic battle each piece being built. To have rare crafting gear was an awesome concept.
EQ2 had a good feel as well, but Vanguard was special when someone was wearing a set of armor or wielding a sword, you knew it came from region ‘x’ and had that touch on it.
That one simple mechanic was powerful and then the crafter could master all regions. Additionally the actual crafting mechanic always was fun.
Finally, perhaps the most amazing thing, for me, was the creation of Wyrmsteel! EQ2 made it AMAZING to have to collect certain materials that were worthless elsewhere, then Have to go to a special forge in a dungeon to craft while your group defended you. Then those weapons mattered! It was an amazing mechanic. More of that!
The crafting process from FF14 is the best I've seen so far. I personally don't like games where one character can master all of the professions. Crafting in general should give you a benefit in terms of raw character power e.g. WOW ring enchantments exclusive for enchanters
The crafting system has to fit the game! This is a evolving world MMORPG that the player's actions directly effect how the world is shaped and played. Actions and chooses made by the players directly shape the history of the world. That means those chooses should be thought out and purposeful, such as picking which craft to dedicate your time and effort into. They should be an essential part of the game that requires guilds to recruit craftsmen the same way they recruit raiders.
-Players shouldn't be able to master every craft, it needs to be a focus.
-There should be interactions and skills needed to craft an item as there is to kill a creature.
-Some items should require items from other crafts to make, but should never roadblock a craftsman from increasing their skill. (i.e. leather from a leather worker to add padding to plate armor, nails from smiths for carpentry builds, ect.)
-Later game blueprints should require the assistance of multiple craftsmen from different crafts to make. Same way a raid boss takes a raid, a large or extremely powerful item should require multiple masters of different crafts to come together and interact with the blueprint to make it. (i.e. a trebuchet could require 2-3 carpenters, 1 smith, and a leatherworker. An elemental trebuchet should require an enchanter or alchemist to add the magic or chemicals needed for the element. Same concept can be applied to armor or weapons.)
-There should be close to unique (extremely rare) blueprints that are obtainable and highly coveted and makes craftsmen want to join guilds for those resources large social interactions can provide.
-Tie in the nodes and what is craft able where. (i.e. high tier military nodes have certain buildings that allow craftsmen to craft specialized items. Same for each type a node, have a specific benefit for the craftsmen depending on what high tier node they are able to work with.)
Maybe while doing crafting you could implement a little mini game that you have to complete to do the crafting successfully. It doesn't have to be all fancy and hard, but something simple, and fun like archeology in Elder scrolls Online could actually make crafting more fun. However, for those that are not interested playing the mini game, or not like crafting at all, could have the option to do AFK crafting, but with less successful rate or something.
I've always wished that someone would let themselves be inspired by the crafting systems in "A tale in the desert"
First couple of hours of gameplay won't introduce you to the depths of the crafting systems, but if you actually looked something up, like blacksmithing or gemcrafting you'd realize, how much better crafting could be in games.
I don't expect to have the exact same type of systems, but systems that actually rely on skills, knowledge and are logical as to what you are doing could be the biggest crafting revolution in AAA games. Crafting in every game is boiling down to the same system with some features on top of it. Think out of the box, make it interactive, intuitive, learnable and rewarding when you have established knowledge. This could in my opinion be revolutionary in terms of crafting in mmos.
Your visions are great and I have so high hopes for Ashes of Creation, this would make it brilliant in my honest opinion.
The best crafting systems I personally have seen are the ones where you can actually deconstruct past items, yes this usually leads to some form of mild abuse because you can craft then deconstruct at your hearts content (until RNGesus says no), but I personally preferred it to the run around and kill 10000 raptors for more leather because the boots you just made are now just to be sold to a random vendor.
Certainly I know it has flaws, but it was the one system that was just menu based I could get behind.
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zammwichMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Its hard to really pinpoint a crafting system Id say is exactly what I want out of one. But to me the big things are it needs to involve enough time investment and representation of that time investment so that 1 craft from another really stands out. I don't like simple watching a progress bar filling and getting an exact replica of the same "iron sword" every other blacksmith can make. A more skilled crafter should be able to make a better version of an "iron sword" even if they are using the same materials. I also don't believe skill needs to be purely based off of a level. There should be an actual interactive element that requires mastery to really get a high quality item. A lot like how combat generally works. Level makes a difference but player skill also factors in. Another important factor to me is that the skill/level cap should be at a high enough place that truly dedicated crafters can stand out from people who have just been power leveling it for a few days.
First off, my standard plea to all MMO developers:
Please create a crafting system for players that love crafting - not for players that hate crafting!
I’m here to suggest those things are ok. They’re ok because those who intend to pursue crafting as a primary gameplay style do not view those tasks as tedium… those tasks *are* our gameplay. It’s what defines us as dedicated crafters, so sanding off the rough edges just so non-crafters can enjoy it more is, in my opinion, not the way to go!
Backing up a step… ideally, if a player doesn’t like to do something, they shouldn’t feel compelled to have to do it. That means the system should also not “force” Joe Combat to feel like he *has to craft*. There should be a design that fosters the idea of interdependence between players. And part of that design means it’s ok that there are things in there that make it unappealing to non-crafters.
I can't agree with this more. Crafting (and professions in general) should not be left behind as more of an afterthought when compared to combat.
From a game play fantasy standpoint: Why should players be nearly forced into the combat system as their primary time sink? What if I want to make a name for myself being a weapon smith? (or cook, tamer, etc)
Currently, most MMOs on the market have no way of allowing a dedicated non-combat player/class to stand out for their skills. If adventurers specialize in combat, they shouldn't also be able to specialize in crafting.
I think one way to allow players to express their skills at non-combat game play, there should be more than just time put in to level a crafter. This is typically where the 'mini-game' argument comes into play...I personally think there should be something more than just clicking a button and waiting. Allow me to put my personal touch on an item based on that mini-game (reaction time, puzzle, discovery, etc).
For those that are against mini-game crafting....fine, put the mini-games in for only the higher end content. But as Lethality points out, if you don't like crafting, you shouldn't feel forced to do it.
Long term game play:
There should be a reason for a crafter to keep crafting items. (aka: item sink). How long does it take before the whole population has all the gear they want? The demand for non-consumable items typically always drops as the server progresses, I think this is part of the reason why most players don't consider non-combat game play styles. Once you can craft the best stuff and you have no clients...what do you do?
some thoughts on ways to mitigate the above crafter's dilemma:
- Temporary buffs for armor (resistances, special stats, particle effects, etc).
- Allow items to break and need to be fully replaced.
- Experimentation with stat builds. (crafting multiple sets of items to accommodate different play styles)
And typically, crafters enjoy making money in the economy systems, so there should be satisfying gold sinks to go along with this non-combat game play. (aka: why do I want to make money? what can I spend it on?)
Generally, I find myself engaged in crafting activities ~70% of the time. It is by far the most enjoyable part for me. I enjoyed parts of the Final Fantasy 14 way of crafting. Mainly just that there were different abilities and such to use while crafting. It made it so much more interesting to craft rather than the usual collect resources and press one button and it's done.
Furthermore, I think Lethality (on page 1) said it best - make a crafting system that is for crafters, not for those who don't like crafting. Crafting should be its own path that a player can pursue, just as involved and in depth as combat. Not just something that anyone can master on the side. Crafting should take a lot of time and effort. It makes no sense for someone who is a fighter 90% of the time to be as good at crafting as someone who crafts 90% of the time.
Crafting should also be highly relevant and important throughout - it is a supreme letdown when crafted gear is only used as a step to gear found through combat, which is almost always better than crafted gear.
Also, I don't think everyone should be able to be a master in every type of crafting and gathering. I'd even go as far to say as someone should only be able to master one or two crafts. That will reinforce inter-dependence between players and crafters and avoid the market being flooded with all types of gear of and material since everyone is a master crafter of every discipline. Specialization within a craft is another potential method to differentiate between different players who have the same craft and to create further inter-dependence.
I'd also like to see crafters have a large impact in node development - at least as much as people doing combat quests would have. It makes sense that to grow a settlement you need crafters and gatherers.
Ultimately, I want to see a crafting system that is relevant at all stages of the game and is just as legitimate of a path as combat is.
I'm looking forward to see what your team comes up with and thank you for involving the community!
Something that could add some asthetic flavor for crafting is give some choices for the player about how to craft: Maybe be capable to choose the flask form when creating a potion, or a recipient for you newest meal! This could give some personality for the crafts and crafters! Ofc i'm skipping clear probleams that this can create, like with codding and doing a varient... But I think still a good idea. (Maybe would be possible to create a variable that automatically would change the liquid color to match the potion/drink one? Don't know if this would work or not -.-)
Edit: Maybe this "cosmetics recipients" can be crafted/sold by other players with other professions, like wood mugs from woodcrafting. Just don't know if they should be just cosmetic or maybe give a tiny buff... This could be applied for more then cooking and alchemy ofc. Now how i don't know.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I really don`t want to see a system that allows top tier crafting to be achievable by the masses, keep a portion restricted to an elite few.
I would like to see scarcity / rarity to top tier so it has meaning and value, even go so far as to spread out the rarity to region based so one can hear rumours of elite weapons in distant lands and traverse expanses of conflict to get try to buy!
1. Find crafting recipes as drops from world bosses, raids, etc
2. Quest chains to find special ingredients/recipes to craft unique items
3. Don't make it too easy to get to max level or to craft top tier gear, like Guild Wars 2. Especially since everyone has to be a crafter to make the best gear, removing any reliance on other players. Making crafting kind of a pointless feature. Also worthless as a source of income. You literally lose money on fees selling crafted items as the material cost = final item price.
4. Have dedicated active crafting skills like EverQuest 2/FF14 with some kind of minigame/quicktime events. Nothing worse than just pressing "craft" and going afk while your progress bar fills up for your 200 iron swords. It doesn't need to be crazy complicated, just something for you to do. EQ2 you basically just use skill X when problem X appears. Maybe something a little more interesting, like a few problems appear at once and you have to make a decision which one to activate, each one with their Pros an Cons.
6. Only allow maybe 1 or 2 primary professions per character. Otherwise we again run into the problem where we have no need for interaction between players/crafters and no crafting economy. Doesn't have to be super crazy where you can't actually craft anything by yourself, but there should be some interaction between professions. If no profession limit, then it has to be difficult/long to master any one profession that going for all of them would not be worth it, unless you literally spend your entire life crafting.
5. Having to be at a crafting station with some nice animations. Immersion is important, I'd hate to be able to craft anything, anywhere, right out of your pocket. Rubbing my hands together while a progress bar fills up. Special crafting stations for unique items around the world would be cool too, like ESO.
8. Learning new styles/techniques from some master crafters around the world. Going to see the dwarves where they teach you how to process Mithril for example. You'd have to do some crafting writs/quests so they would share their knowledge with you. Maybe also some special books with unique skins or stats that you can only acquire with some special currency/reputation level.
9. Like some others have said, an RNG quality system would add some spice. Different quality tiers of the same item, with maybe some ways of doing it manually but requiring special rare materials.
-Don't do a recipe discovery system. It sounds cool on paper but rarely ends up being a good feature long term. It can be interesting in the first few weeks of the game, but when everything get discovered and put in a guide, it just becomes an annoying hinderance than a fun mechanic.
-People with money shouldn't be able to speedrun through crafting. It can help sure, but not just: Buy all mats from TP > afk craft to max level in 45mins > congratulations you are now a master crafter.
The best crafting I ever played was with pre-cu Star Wars Galaxies. With equipment wear and eventual breakdown it maintained a great economy. The average crafter could make average items of all sorts but with rare materials and unique add ons the variability was immense to tailor different items bespoke to a patron at top quality. That's what I want, a use for full time crafters.
3 crafting features that I have loved in other games are
1) Ingredients for crafting outside of standard gathering artisan classes. Obviously, not a majority of the ingredients should be obtainable outside of the gathering system, but having to slay some specific monsters to get specific materials for a recipe is a nice change of pace in the crafting grind. Or having to get something like an Ice Shard from a Glacier.
2) Specializations in certain artisan skills. For example, in the weaponsmith artisan class, it would be cool to get to choose a specialization in blades, or maces. It makes the crafting feel more personalized and keeps all weaponsmiths from seeming to be the same.
3) Lower level recipes retaining value to higher level players. Something I dislike mostly from crafting systems is that once you max out your skill, the early to mid level recipes lose value as you get closer to max level. Having some early recipes that are relatively useful to all levels means you get to use some of those old recipes and means you have to go back to lower level areas to get the lower level materials.
4) Niche items. I love being able to play with interesting items that come from crafting. An example would be a potion that allows water walking, or maybe a white fur cloak that can be activated in the snow and grant invisibility or something. These kinds of items are a nice change of pace from the standard crafting gear meant to improve character performance directly.
5) This is similar to niche items and specialized items, but interesting augments to caravans, ships, and maybe seige equipment. I am interested to see the way crafting augments the caravans, ships and seige stuff. But I hope it is more interesting than "+100 Armor" or "+10 Manuever". Something like "Sand Wheels - +50 Speed in Desert" or "Ice Breaker Hull - Allows travel through Icy Water". Seeing the same "Adds Armor", "Adds Speed" can be dull and not very exciting. But there could be a Desert Specialization for caravan crafting that can spice up the choices there.
I would love a crafting system where each player can only have one crafting skill.
While I have benefited greatly in games where I can master everything it takes away from player interaction. We need the professions to interact to help create an immersive world.
Crafters should be capable of crafting end game viable items. They shouldn’t be the best items but strong enough where a player can do all content with crafted gear.
Quality/Stats on Gear/Item Affects/Visual Appearance
I believe a crafter should be able to control what stats a piece of gear gets, along with set affects, and visual appearance. This should be controlled through crafter skill and materials used. So when crafting we would have a base material that determines armor value and number of stat slots and set bonuses or set affects that can be applied, material that determines what stats the piece gets, material that gives the piece affects or set bonuses, and finally the style piece.
I think this might be similar to ESO but it’s been a while since I played so I don’t remember.
Improvement/Enhancement System
I believe crafters should be able to not only make items but also improve items. Crafters should be able to improve both those dropped in the world and those crafted by players.
For example, I craft a bunch of healing potions but then I receive a shipment of more potent healing herbs that I can then use to improve slightly the effect of that healing potion. Or maybe the improvement is that in addition to the heal there is also an increase to defense. Likewise if my guild goes and clears a raid and a legendary armor piece drops my guild should be able to turn to me and have me improve that item to make it unique.
Repair System
We should have to repair items over time. Having a repair system adds an additional layer of interaction to the player base and realism to the game.
I don’t want to see a system where the items can break or lose stats over time but after so many hits or uses a player has to return to a crafter to have additional materials added to the item so it is useable again.
Appearance System
I have loved customizing my characters in games that allowed me to do so. When capable I find that I change my style frequently. Therefore I believe that cosmetic changes should be allowed to happen post item creation as well as during item creation.
I would like a crafting system in place for cosmetic items. One of the professions should be able to make dyes and magic scrolls that transform an item into a new appearance
Must Haves
I believe some of these below are already intended to be a part of the crafting system.
Players should have to chose a single profession, i.e. I am an Alchemist and only that, I am not also my own master Herbalist
Low level materials should be used all the way up to the highest levels of crafting in conjunction with more rare materials.
Being a master of a profession should be a labor that requires time, and effort.
Absolutely zero RNG should exist in crafting.
Items should NEVER break, maybe the improvement fails but you should not lose the item when trying to improve it.
I spend almost all my time in crafting or its related activities and I love that part of the game however the way current MMOs are designed crafting after a certain period of time alienates you from the other aspects of the game. The raids,the pvp and all the other stuff take one direction and you end up grinding and grinding and have to constantly choose between one or the other.
Not to mention when world bosses drop an item which is better that best craftable items..all that time spend feels like a side hobby or just a way to make money from new players in the game who eventually will again look for the legendary items from bosses. Crafting need to be an important primetime activity!
My suggestion : Integrating certain aspects of crafting with pvp/dungeons/world bosses/events.
- legendary material drops instead of fully made pieces of gear
- taking a high level crafter in your party increases your chance of higher level drops
- some items which can be gathered in dungeons only by a crafter
- after killing a boss-it drops an ore which can be gathered by a crafter of a certain level only.
Benefits : Increased integration of ingame mechanics, maintain relevance of professions and reducing the monotony of mini games for crafting because now to be the highest tier crafter you have to play the dungeons and the bosses etc. which are obviously more exciting that the mini games and also nudges crafters to try out other aspects of the game or at the very least wear their own gear to become somewhat powerful
Thank you for opening this discussion, a lot of great ideas to read!
A really cool 'crafting system I saw was in a small game called Vintage Story that I played. It was an extremely cool and interactive way to be able to forge tools, weapons, and armor on an anvil and it allowed room for people to become better at it and do it faster, granted it did become tedious when you started to forge large quantities of items but it was pretty cool.
It would be cool for you guys to look at it and maybe get some inspiration for crafting in a way that makes it engaging and not just gathering a list of items to click a big CRAFT button and have it be done. Add some sort of minigame that you can do that will affect the outcome of the item and its stats. Don't make it impossibly hard though so that its extremely hard to achieve the best stats for an item. Cause it would feel awful to have someone craft a high tier weapon for you just for it to turn out below average relative to the same item. Idk just throwin out some ideas.
While on the topic of crafting and the benefits that come along with it, I wanted to throw some ideas out on how you could deal with repairs when it came to equipment. Equipment should be worn down and broken as its used obviously and I'm almost positive you already have that in mind, but how would you go about it when it comes to the actual process? I'd rather that it also wasn't just a list of items you would grab and throw onto it and call it a day, its repair effectiveness should be determined by how high the skill level of the crafter is, and maybe it shouldn't even be repairable unless the crafter has a high enough level to work the material. This would cause for master crafters and what not to be sought after so that they could get a better repair on their weapon and reward players for being proficient in their skill.
To finish this off I want to talk about crafting/repair times. I don't want things to be practically instant like being done after doing a minigame or clicking craft/repair, but they also shouldn't take days to finish. That is always a kick in the gut when you finally gather the stuff you need for something and you're gated on time.
Comments
[*] I like having clear quality levels of materials and reuse lower level materials in new ways for higher level processing/crafting.
[*] I like having ways to clearly sort stored mats.
[*] I don't like crafting being used to upgrade to finished items, especially systems like Neverwinter with an RNG fail chance that happens to have a cash shop chance improvement system advertised on the crafting screen.
[*] I do like componants to items to make a finished item, so a crafter can disassemble a sword that can receive a new blade, handle or guard to replace that component with a superior one. I also like socket systems for adding buffs to finished items.
[*] I hate having to break apart found items, especially highest end drops, to then break apart to RNG chance to learn the recipes. To reclaim mats sure but not for reverse engineering. I'd probably agree with this more if like the animal husbandry there was a system of researching X drop (Lets say sword with bleed attribute) with goal item (High end axe) to create goal with trait (High end axe with bleed attribute).
[*] I prefer to have a required tool to gather high end gear rather than level based. IE Nope, you're only level 29, you can't mine this high grade iron you found because you are not level 30. Maybe having to use a graded tools but the tool degrades more if character/tool are lower than the target level of the material being gathered would feel better. (Plus presumably there would be the local monsters of a level commensurate with high end gatherables nearby driving off too low leveled players unwilling to risk it).
[*] I'd prefer a system for processes and crafters that takes time (hours) but doesn't require presence as it still rewards heavy play and casuals, and gets the player back into the world to interact with other players.
[*] I like a variety of fields to specialize in crafting rather than a more pyramid of small number of high end powerful item recipes that heavily limit who can learn this level of crafting making monopolies.
[*] I like a variety of stats on items (Durability, Buffs, Resistances, stat bonuses, armor/dmg stat, crit chance/multiplier, speed/weight, length/size) that make a diversity of meta (and a sales/auction house system able to visually show this easily).
[*] I like the idea of a mini-games to refine better recipes but once mastered I fear repeition becomes busy work.
[*] I like the idea of having drop and node purchasable recipes but also having a system/minigame to do research on materials and goal target create new receipes. However this type of system would normally fail against the internet just listing all the recipes unless there was some kind of randomiser element/number attached to the individual character that had to be worked out by the game to crack the receipe.
I know a couple of these elements are present in the currently listed crafting plans on the wiki.
Ug I am long winded at night.
1. Items can be repaired with a chance of max durability lost depending on the quality of the repairman. 2.Staple crafting materials have color variants that effect the color of the final models.
3.There are mini games that influence the final product quality.
4.Weapons have proficiency that is gained from weapon use to apply upgrades and potentially imbue them with a soul.
So let's say you gather herbs first, you need to process them second, finally you turn them into potions. This three step process COULD be done by the same person, but would be more efficient if done by three, focusing in the different aspects. If you focus on the gathering part, you should be able to gather more, getting higher quality and have a chance of getting rare stuff. If you focus on processing, you can have a lower failure rates, high chances at better quality, and faster processing speeds. If you focus on finishing the process, you can have chance to create enhanced potions, chance to create multiple potions and a chance to learn new/altered potion recipes. In this system, you need others to be more efficient rather than doing it all solo.
Regarding the interesting item rather than trash... I mean that people remember crafting Sulfuras, people gathered in mass to watch it being crafted... no one cares about the trash random green gear that gets vendored. I would rather see it be, gather 100x ore (maybe 1hr of work), process them into 40 bars (2ore to 1 bar with some lost to failure), craft into 2 sets of gloves or one chest piece but either of these items should be meaningful to someone at the level requirement for them. (Like imagine a lvl10 green chest piece with 1% hit or crit on it, would be so much better than 100% chance at 2str/3stam or something like that)
I also liked ESO on how crafting mats worked. You didnt out level mats, cloth was always used to make cloth items. But the added mats and skill made them more powerful. Having tones of low level crafting items filling up your banks is a pain. Make all mats useful no matter your level.
I find item management the thorn in my side. This is just what I would love to see in the game or something like it to make it so I don't spend 30 min + every night doing item management.
There should be several ways to craft an everyday item. (If you can only make wood glue from one variety of pine tree and one variety of fish, that creates a bottleneck. Have a few options for ingredients so that finding the resources you need for frequently used items is easier.)
Materials should have different properties from other similar resources. (Using one type of resource may give better stats than a different kind. Using red wood might give you +3 to Crit and +5 to Damage on weapons and +3 to carry weight and +5 to item space when used to craft a backpack. Using blue wood might give you totally different stats.)
Gatherers and Crafters should not have to struggle with backpack space issues. (Either having resource or crafting bags outside of your main pack is essential. Crafters will often carry many different types of items that quickly fill up their main bag. Having harvestables and parts either not counted in the backpack slot or kept in separate bags is very helpful.)
Beginner Tools should be free. (Charge for higher level tools but make beginner tools free. We don't want to have to kill 30 mobs just to be able to afford one set of tools and a fishing pole. Make them free and we'll get started harvesting and adding to the economy. We'll fight the mobs while we travel.)
Don't put a bunch of mobs on top of low level resources. (Sure, you can have Goblins camped out on a resource patch because it is valuable, but give the solo or duo crafters a chance to gather their own supplies when the market doesn't have them. Having to have a five minute fight just to harvest a few trees is not fun.)
Games like SWG and "The Repopulation" have extensive crafting systems that crafters like. Thanks for listening!
For crafting I have 2 favorites. FF14 and Ragnarok Online. FF14 completely reinvented crafting at it's core and changed how it works on the micro level that no other game ever did before. How you craft in that game is what is interesting as it works the same on a macro level as every other MMO. You are limited by bag space so you want to mostly focus on one to 3 at a time. However crafting in that game is more like entire crafting classes.
Just like in Ragnarok online. Ragnarok online does not have crafting as a set part of every character. There are classes that do nothing but crafting and you have to level them just like any other class. They generally suck more in combat than other classes, but are able to do the crafting no other classes can do.
In the end crafting is always the same on a macro level. Take an item and turn them into usable items or equipment. I would like it a lot more if mini games were associated with them. Like instead of clicking on a tree and waiting 3 seconds to gather the wood from the tree. You could play a mini game as you chop the tree that prompts you to press a button on the screen. You press it and it fills a progress bar. Once it's full you get the wood.
Fishing you can do what WoW does. Except tie it to a keyboard key. Watch a bobber, it moves you reel it in.
What's important for crafting is if doing it results in fun in some way. I wouldn't say any game ever made crafting fun itself though. Most make the results of crafting fun, but crafting itself boring as hell.
I do crafting when it results in an item I want. So the percentage varies so much. I only really did it in WoW the most since it rewarded you the most. Since it gave you mounts, pets, and visuals you could not get in any other way. When I wanted something 100% of the time to crafting. When I didn't then only about like 20%. I would do it while doing other things just to keep it leveled.
U.S. East
The feel was you were fighting an epic battle each piece being built. To have rare crafting gear was an awesome concept.
EQ2 had a good feel as well, but Vanguard was special when someone was wearing a set of armor or wielding a sword, you knew it came from region ‘x’ and had that touch on it.
That one simple mechanic was powerful and then the crafter could master all regions. Additionally the actual crafting mechanic always was fun.
Finally, perhaps the most amazing thing, for me, was the creation of Wyrmsteel! EQ2 made it AMAZING to have to collect certain materials that were worthless elsewhere, then Have to go to a special forge in a dungeon to craft while your group defended you. Then those weapons mattered! It was an amazing mechanic. More of that!
-Players shouldn't be able to master every craft, it needs to be a focus.
-There should be interactions and skills needed to craft an item as there is to kill a creature.
-Some items should require items from other crafts to make, but should never roadblock a craftsman from increasing their skill. (i.e. leather from a leather worker to add padding to plate armor, nails from smiths for carpentry builds, ect.)
-Later game blueprints should require the assistance of multiple craftsmen from different crafts to make. Same way a raid boss takes a raid, a large or extremely powerful item should require multiple masters of different crafts to come together and interact with the blueprint to make it. (i.e. a trebuchet could require 2-3 carpenters, 1 smith, and a leatherworker. An elemental trebuchet should require an enchanter or alchemist to add the magic or chemicals needed for the element. Same concept can be applied to armor or weapons.)
-There should be close to unique (extremely rare) blueprints that are obtainable and highly coveted and makes craftsmen want to join guilds for those resources large social interactions can provide.
-Tie in the nodes and what is craft able where. (i.e. high tier military nodes have certain buildings that allow craftsmen to craft specialized items. Same for each type a node, have a specific benefit for the craftsmen depending on what high tier node they are able to work with.)
First couple of hours of gameplay won't introduce you to the depths of the crafting systems, but if you actually looked something up, like blacksmithing or gemcrafting you'd realize, how much better crafting could be in games.
I don't expect to have the exact same type of systems, but systems that actually rely on skills, knowledge and are logical as to what you are doing could be the biggest crafting revolution in AAA games. Crafting in every game is boiling down to the same system with some features on top of it. Think out of the box, make it interactive, intuitive, learnable and rewarding when you have established knowledge. This could in my opinion be revolutionary in terms of crafting in mmos.
Your visions are great and I have so high hopes for Ashes of Creation, this would make it brilliant in my honest opinion.
Certainly I know it has flaws, but it was the one system that was just menu based I could get behind.
I can't agree with this more. Crafting (and professions in general) should not be left behind as more of an afterthought when compared to combat.
From a game play fantasy standpoint: Why should players be nearly forced into the combat system as their primary time sink? What if I want to make a name for myself being a weapon smith? (or cook, tamer, etc)
Currently, most MMOs on the market have no way of allowing a dedicated non-combat player/class to stand out for their skills. If adventurers specialize in combat, they shouldn't also be able to specialize in crafting.
I think one way to allow players to express their skills at non-combat game play, there should be more than just time put in to level a crafter. This is typically where the 'mini-game' argument comes into play...I personally think there should be something more than just clicking a button and waiting. Allow me to put my personal touch on an item based on that mini-game (reaction time, puzzle, discovery, etc).
For those that are against mini-game crafting....fine, put the mini-games in for only the higher end content. But as Lethality points out, if you don't like crafting, you shouldn't feel forced to do it.
Long term game play:
There should be a reason for a crafter to keep crafting items. (aka: item sink). How long does it take before the whole population has all the gear they want? The demand for non-consumable items typically always drops as the server progresses, I think this is part of the reason why most players don't consider non-combat game play styles. Once you can craft the best stuff and you have no clients...what do you do?
some thoughts on ways to mitigate the above crafter's dilemma:
- Temporary buffs for armor (resistances, special stats, particle effects, etc).
- Allow items to break and need to be fully replaced.
- Experimentation with stat builds. (crafting multiple sets of items to accommodate different play styles)
And typically, crafters enjoy making money in the economy systems, so there should be satisfying gold sinks to go along with this non-combat game play. (aka: why do I want to make money? what can I spend it on?)
Furthermore, I think Lethality (on page 1) said it best - make a crafting system that is for crafters, not for those who don't like crafting. Crafting should be its own path that a player can pursue, just as involved and in depth as combat. Not just something that anyone can master on the side. Crafting should take a lot of time and effort. It makes no sense for someone who is a fighter 90% of the time to be as good at crafting as someone who crafts 90% of the time.
Crafting should also be highly relevant and important throughout - it is a supreme letdown when crafted gear is only used as a step to gear found through combat, which is almost always better than crafted gear.
Also, I don't think everyone should be able to be a master in every type of crafting and gathering. I'd even go as far to say as someone should only be able to master one or two crafts. That will reinforce inter-dependence between players and crafters and avoid the market being flooded with all types of gear of and material since everyone is a master crafter of every discipline. Specialization within a craft is another potential method to differentiate between different players who have the same craft and to create further inter-dependence.
I'd also like to see crafters have a large impact in node development - at least as much as people doing combat quests would have. It makes sense that to grow a settlement you need crafters and gatherers.
Ultimately, I want to see a crafting system that is relevant at all stages of the game and is just as legitimate of a path as combat is.
I'm looking forward to see what your team comes up with and thank you for involving the community!
Edit: Maybe this "cosmetics recipients" can be crafted/sold by other players with other professions, like wood mugs from woodcrafting. Just don't know if they should be just cosmetic or maybe give a tiny buff... This could be applied for more then cooking and alchemy ofc. Now how i don't know.
I would like to see scarcity / rarity to top tier so it has meaning and value, even go so far as to spread out the rarity to region based so one can hear rumours of elite weapons in distant lands and traverse expanses of conflict to get try to buy!
2. Quest chains to find special ingredients/recipes to craft unique items
3. Don't make it too easy to get to max level or to craft top tier gear, like Guild Wars 2. Especially since everyone has to be a crafter to make the best gear, removing any reliance on other players. Making crafting kind of a pointless feature. Also worthless as a source of income. You literally lose money on fees selling crafted items as the material cost = final item price.
4. Have dedicated active crafting skills like EverQuest 2/FF14 with some kind of minigame/quicktime events. Nothing worse than just pressing "craft" and going afk while your progress bar fills up for your 200 iron swords. It doesn't need to be crazy complicated, just something for you to do. EQ2 you basically just use skill X when problem X appears. Maybe something a little more interesting, like a few problems appear at once and you have to make a decision which one to activate, each one with their Pros an Cons.
6. Only allow maybe 1 or 2 primary professions per character. Otherwise we again run into the problem where we have no need for interaction between players/crafters and no crafting economy. Doesn't have to be super crazy where you can't actually craft anything by yourself, but there should be some interaction between professions. If no profession limit, then it has to be difficult/long to master any one profession that going for all of them would not be worth it, unless you literally spend your entire life crafting.
5. Having to be at a crafting station with some nice animations. Immersion is important, I'd hate to be able to craft anything, anywhere, right out of your pocket. Rubbing my hands together while a progress bar fills up. Special crafting stations for unique items around the world would be cool too, like ESO.
8. Learning new styles/techniques from some master crafters around the world. Going to see the dwarves where they teach you how to process Mithril for example. You'd have to do some crafting writs/quests so they would share their knowledge with you. Maybe also some special books with unique skins or stats that you can only acquire with some special currency/reputation level.
9. Like some others have said, an RNG quality system would add some spice. Different quality tiers of the same item, with maybe some ways of doing it manually but requiring special rare materials.
-Don't do a recipe discovery system. It sounds cool on paper but rarely ends up being a good feature long term. It can be interesting in the first few weeks of the game, but when everything get discovered and put in a guide, it just becomes an annoying hinderance than a fun mechanic.
-People with money shouldn't be able to speedrun through crafting. It can help sure, but not just: Buy all mats from TP > afk craft to max level in 45mins > congratulations you are now a master crafter.
1) Ingredients for crafting outside of standard gathering artisan classes. Obviously, not a majority of the ingredients should be obtainable outside of the gathering system, but having to slay some specific monsters to get specific materials for a recipe is a nice change of pace in the crafting grind. Or having to get something like an Ice Shard from a Glacier.
2) Specializations in certain artisan skills. For example, in the weaponsmith artisan class, it would be cool to get to choose a specialization in blades, or maces. It makes the crafting feel more personalized and keeps all weaponsmiths from seeming to be the same.
3) Lower level recipes retaining value to higher level players. Something I dislike mostly from crafting systems is that once you max out your skill, the early to mid level recipes lose value as you get closer to max level. Having some early recipes that are relatively useful to all levels means you get to use some of those old recipes and means you have to go back to lower level areas to get the lower level materials.
4) Niche items. I love being able to play with interesting items that come from crafting. An example would be a potion that allows water walking, or maybe a white fur cloak that can be activated in the snow and grant invisibility or something. These kinds of items are a nice change of pace from the standard crafting gear meant to improve character performance directly.
5) This is similar to niche items and specialized items, but interesting augments to caravans, ships, and maybe seige equipment. I am interested to see the way crafting augments the caravans, ships and seige stuff. But I hope it is more interesting than "+100 Armor" or "+10 Manuever". Something like "Sand Wheels - +50 Speed in Desert" or "Ice Breaker Hull - Allows travel through Icy Water". Seeing the same "Adds Armor", "Adds Speed" can be dull and not very exciting. But there could be a Desert Specialization for caravan crafting that can spice up the choices there.
While I have benefited greatly in games where I can master everything it takes away from player interaction. We need the professions to interact to help create an immersive world.
Crafters should be capable of crafting end game viable items. They shouldn’t be the best items but strong enough where a player can do all content with crafted gear.
Quality/Stats on Gear/Item Affects/Visual Appearance
I believe a crafter should be able to control what stats a piece of gear gets, along with set affects, and visual appearance. This should be controlled through crafter skill and materials used. So when crafting we would have a base material that determines armor value and number of stat slots and set bonuses or set affects that can be applied, material that determines what stats the piece gets, material that gives the piece affects or set bonuses, and finally the style piece.
I think this might be similar to ESO but it’s been a while since I played so I don’t remember.
Improvement/Enhancement System
I believe crafters should be able to not only make items but also improve items. Crafters should be able to improve both those dropped in the world and those crafted by players.
For example, I craft a bunch of healing potions but then I receive a shipment of more potent healing herbs that I can then use to improve slightly the effect of that healing potion. Or maybe the improvement is that in addition to the heal there is also an increase to defense. Likewise if my guild goes and clears a raid and a legendary armor piece drops my guild should be able to turn to me and have me improve that item to make it unique.
Repair System
We should have to repair items over time. Having a repair system adds an additional layer of interaction to the player base and realism to the game.
I don’t want to see a system where the items can break or lose stats over time but after so many hits or uses a player has to return to a crafter to have additional materials added to the item so it is useable again.
Appearance System
I have loved customizing my characters in games that allowed me to do so. When capable I find that I change my style frequently. Therefore I believe that cosmetic changes should be allowed to happen post item creation as well as during item creation.
I would like a crafting system in place for cosmetic items. One of the professions should be able to make dyes and magic scrolls that transform an item into a new appearance
Must Haves
I believe some of these below are already intended to be a part of the crafting system.
Players should have to chose a single profession, i.e. I am an Alchemist and only that, I am not also my own master Herbalist
Low level materials should be used all the way up to the highest levels of crafting in conjunction with more rare materials.
Being a master of a profession should be a labor that requires time, and effort.
Absolutely zero RNG should exist in crafting.
Items should NEVER break, maybe the improvement fails but you should not lose the item when trying to improve it.
Not to mention when world bosses drop an item which is better that best craftable items..all that time spend feels like a side hobby or just a way to make money from new players in the game who eventually will again look for the legendary items from bosses. Crafting need to be an important primetime activity!
My suggestion : Integrating certain aspects of crafting with pvp/dungeons/world bosses/events.
- legendary material drops instead of fully made pieces of gear
- taking a high level crafter in your party increases your chance of higher level drops
- some items which can be gathered in dungeons only by a crafter
- after killing a boss-it drops an ore which can be gathered by a crafter of a certain level only.
Benefits : Increased integration of ingame mechanics, maintain relevance of professions and reducing the monotony of mini games for crafting because now to be the highest tier crafter you have to play the dungeons and the bosses etc. which are obviously more exciting that the mini games and also nudges crafters to try out other aspects of the game or at the very least wear their own gear to become somewhat powerful
Thank you for opening this discussion, a lot of great ideas to read!
It would be cool for you guys to look at it and maybe get some inspiration for crafting in a way that makes it engaging and not just gathering a list of items to click a big CRAFT button and have it be done. Add some sort of minigame that you can do that will affect the outcome of the item and its stats. Don't make it impossibly hard though so that its extremely hard to achieve the best stats for an item. Cause it would feel awful to have someone craft a high tier weapon for you just for it to turn out below average relative to the same item. Idk just throwin out some ideas.
While on the topic of crafting and the benefits that come along with it, I wanted to throw some ideas out on how you could deal with repairs when it came to equipment. Equipment should be worn down and broken as its used obviously and I'm almost positive you already have that in mind, but how would you go about it when it comes to the actual process? I'd rather that it also wasn't just a list of items you would grab and throw onto it and call it a day, its repair effectiveness should be determined by how high the skill level of the crafter is, and maybe it shouldn't even be repairable unless the crafter has a high enough level to work the material. This would cause for master crafters and what not to be sought after so that they could get a better repair on their weapon and reward players for being proficient in their skill.
To finish this off I want to talk about crafting/repair times. I don't want things to be practically instant like being done after doing a minigame or clicking craft/repair, but they also shouldn't take days to finish. That is always a kick in the gut when you finally gather the stuff you need for something and you're gated on time.