Compromise for DPS Meters: Tooltip Numbers

So as we know Ashes of Creation will most likely not have any DPS meters. I am personally all for this as I think it becomes a form of Gatekeeping and actually forces a Meta rather than open discussions on how to improve. When it is easy to tell the exact best way to play the game, it ruins the fun and becomes about following the guide you have pulled up on another screen.

However, I would like to propose as a compromise that we do have Tooltip DPS and/or Raw Numbers on the Tooltip. That way it is easy to tell how much you gain or lose by putting on a new piece of gear. Somewhat similar to how Path of Exile does it.

What is everyone's thoughts on this?

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roost

Neurath wrote: »

You can't have proper competition unless the rules are fair. So far, your plans to have a DPS Meter whether IS sanctifies a DPS Meter or not is not competition, it is cheating.

DPS meters are not cheating. At all. They provide no in-game advantage, and only measure your current level of performance. You could do the exact same thing a dps meter does if you wanted to pour through your combat log and calculate it out yourself. This is like saying having a statboard in a basketball game is cheating.

ThexBlackxKnight

Maezriel wrote: »

Trax wrote: »

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

There will always be a meta and Ashes combat so far seems no different then other mmorpgs when it come to that. Pvp players will squeeze any advantage they can get in their builds to make sure they kill your character. Players not performing will be bench for better players because you wont be getting any good loot if you cant put out the most damage on a raid boss or you are going to be homeless because your node just got destroyed because the people defending the siege where underperforming when better players could of been in their spots to prevent that from happening. You can't take the competitiveness out of a competitive game.

Mostly true, all though in games with sandbox elements, and even without, communities do arise that have different goals than being competitive.

Regardless, games with more fierce competitiveness due to higher stakes have already existed, and done so without meters. I’m fact, the methodology employed to determine skill ranking (large scale communal dueling, tryouts by dueling, dueling tournaments, etc.) is more beneficial to the overall health of the game than adding a data parser which gives you the answer generically. In fact, you’ll derive more information about a players ability by dueling them than you will by looking at a meter. And more importantly, you’re spending your time playing the game instead of analyzing spreadsheets or looking at websites. Dueling is superior to meters. Meters are unnecessary.

I'm not sure I see where one cancels out the other. There's no reason that if @Noaani uses a DPS meter to assist in building his character that he won't be forced to back it up in an actual duel. It's not like in WoW where there will be a RaiderIO to determine skill...and hell there's already Achievements planned so if people really wanted to gatekeep Meters aren't going to be how it's done.

Also games like Darkfall and Mortal Online work on gear being recycled do to loss and being replaced. I can see statistics not mattering as much in those games. Ashes is going to have the traditional gearing system of trying to get the best in slot items to max out your stats and caps, players will be crutching numbers like they do in WoW and most other mmorpgs.

Trax

Maezriel wrote: »

Trax wrote: »

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

There will always be a meta and Ashes combat so far seems no different then other mmorpgs when it come to that. Pvp players will squeeze any advantage they can get in their builds to make sure they kill your character. Players not performing will be bench for better players because you wont be getting any good loot if you cant put out the most damage on a raid boss or you are going to be homeless because your node just got destroyed because the people defending the siege where underperforming when better players could of been in their spots to prevent that from happening. You can't take the competitiveness out of a competitive game.

Mostly true, all though in games with sandbox elements, and even without, communities do arise that have different goals than being competitive.

Regardless, games with more fierce competitiveness due to higher stakes have already existed, and done so without meters. I’m fact, the methodology employed to determine skill ranking (large scale communal dueling, tryouts by dueling, dueling tournaments, etc.) is more beneficial to the overall health of the game than adding a data parser which gives you the answer generically. In fact, you’ll derive more information about a players ability by dueling them than you will by looking at a meter. And more importantly, you’re spending your time playing the game instead of analyzing spreadsheets or looking at websites. Dueling is superior to meters. Meters are unnecessary.

I'm not sure I see where one cancels out the other. There's no reason that if @Noaani uses a DPS meter to assist in building his character that he won't be forced to back it up in an actual duel. It's not like in WoW where there will be a RaiderIO to determine skill...and hell there's already Achievements planned so if people really wanted to gatekeep Meters aren't going to be how it's done.

I was responding to @ThexBlackxKnight and making the point that, for the purpose of ranking players in order of ability, there’s more meaningful ways to do that other than through the use of a meter, that are both more accurate, and better for community building within the game.

@Noaani’s argument seems to be, I’m general, and correct me if I’m wrong, that the use of a combat tracker allows an individual to optimize their build with thorough after action analysis. This is a different argument than the one @ThexBlackxKnight has put forward, which seems to be, and again correct me if I’m wrong, that he wants to use a meter to rank players for selection of raids and sieges. @Noaani’s argument holds more water from a technical perspective, but my objection to that argument is that it will reduce 64 classes to 4 much faster than will happen if that information is kept secret, both in meters and tool tips.

Songcaller

roost wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

You can't have proper competition unless the rules are fair. So far, your plans to have a DPS Meter whether IS sanctifies a DPS Meter or not is not competition, it is cheating.

DPS meters are not cheating. At all. They provide no in-game advantage, and only measure your current level of performance. You could do the exact same thing a dps meter does if you wanted to pour through your combat log and calculate it out yourself. This is like saying having a statboard in a basketball game is cheating.

Combat Trackers allow you to test rotations, pick the best rotations and then perform at a higher ratio. If you do not have the Combat Tracker, then you would have to test individual rotations and class setups before you settle on what is 'best'. The fact remains, with IS not wanting DPS Meters, the encounters won't require DPS Meters. If you want a DPS Meter in an environment where DPS Meters are stated not to be needed then you are actually a very bad player made better through the use of third party tools.

ThexBlackxKnight

@Trax

Not necessarily what I want , its what going to happen because guilds will do anything to maximize their potential to win because you kind of have to win , its not really a choice if you want to be successful in the game, its how its being designed.

roost

Neurath wrote: »

Combat Trackers allow you to test rotations, pick the best rotations and then perform at a higher ratio. If you do not have the Combat Tracker, then you would have to test individual rotations and class setups before you settle on what is 'best'. The fact remains, with IS not wanting DPS Meters, the encounters won't require DPS Meters. If you want a DPS Meter in an environment where DPS Meters are stated not to be needed then you are actually a very bad player made better through the use of third party tools.

So if I sat down, poured through my combat log, and did all the calculations by hand, you'd be fine with that? There is quite literally nothing wrong with trying to improve yourself as a player. You can whine and wax poetic about how "only bad players use tools to improve themselves" (a hilariously awful take by itself) all you want, but it won't change the fact that players want to perform at the highest level they can.

Considering the fact that there will be different difficulty levels in large scale raid encounters determined by speed of completion, I would say that there will absolutely be different levels of play. Different levels of play means that if not enough people are performing at a high enough level, then you won't be able to access the higher levels of content. And for you to suggest that people should lay down and not use objective measures to improve themselves... really speaks measures as to what kind of player you are, and the level of entitlement you have. You clearly have not only played in a game or at a level where people use DPS meters, but also have little to no understanding as to what a DPS meter actually tells you. It's not as simple as you think, and there is tons of theory crafting that goes into it. You are not as good of a player as you think you are.

It doesn't matter in the end, Steven Sharif has already confirmed that players will have access to a text-based combat log that we will be able to export and analyze for our own purposes. I look forward to the creation of asheslogs.com. Cope.

Maezriel

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

Trax wrote: »

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

There will always be a meta and Ashes combat so far seems no different then other mmorpgs when it come to that. Pvp players will squeeze any advantage they can get in their builds to make sure they kill your character. Players not performing will be bench for better players because you wont be getting any good loot if you cant put out the most damage on a raid boss or you are going to be homeless because your node just got destroyed because the people defending the siege where underperforming when better players could of been in their spots to prevent that from happening. You can't take the competitiveness out of a competitive game.

Mostly true, all though in games with sandbox elements, and even without, communities do arise that have different goals than being competitive.

Regardless, games with more fierce competitiveness due to higher stakes have already existed, and done so without meters. I’m fact, the methodology employed to determine skill ranking (large scale communal dueling, tryouts by dueling, dueling tournaments, etc.) is more beneficial to the overall health of the game than adding a data parser which gives you the answer generically. In fact, you’ll derive more information about a players ability by dueling them than you will by looking at a meter. And more importantly, you’re spending your time playing the game instead of analyzing spreadsheets or looking at websites. Dueling is superior to meters. Meters are unnecessary.

I'm not sure I see where one cancels out the other. There's no reason that if @Noaani uses a DPS meter to assist in building his character that he won't be forced to back it up in an actual duel. It's not like in WoW where there will be a RaiderIO to determine skill...and hell there's already Achievements planned so if people really wanted to gatekeep Meters aren't going to be how it's done.

Also games like Darkfall and Mortal Online work on gear being recycled do to loss and being replaced. I can see statistics not mattering as much in those games. Ashes is going to have the traditional gearing system of trying to get the best in slot items to max out your stats and caps, players will be crutching numbers like they do in WoW and most other mmorpgs.

Ashes gearing is based on decay and loss as well in order to continually fuel the economy. It's closer to Darkfall than WoW

Maezriel

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

@Trax

Not necessarily what I want , its what going to happen because guilds will do anything to maximize their potential to win because you kind of have to win , its not really a choice if you want to be successful in the game, its how its being designed.

Whereas I also would like to have some way of tracking my own stats in game I don't foresee guilds being this bad w/ the gatekeeping b/c even if you don't perform to the absolute highest standard that can be offset by having a high gathering level...also some DPS is better than no DPS and I don't foresee someone getting kicked b/c the other 39 members of the raid are insanely kitted to the teeth, even in Classic you had plenty of warm bodies carried through and there's nothing to indicate Ashes raids are going to be any harder than what people cleared during Wrath.

ThexBlackxKnight

Maezriel wrote: »

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

Ashes gearing is based on decay and loss as well in order to continually fuel the economy. It's closer to Darkfall than WoW

You just need resources to repair decay and losing actual gear is going to be rare , apparently you can have it fix by a crafter. It not a game that you lose everything when you die and have keep replacing gear , that is very different.

Songcaller

roost wrote: »

So if I sat down, poured through my combat log, and did all the calculations by hand, you'd be fine with that? There is quite literally nothing wrong with trying to improve yourself as a player. You can whine and wax poetic about how "only bad players use tools to improve themselves" (a hilariously awful take by itself) all you want, but it won't change the fact that players want to perform at the highest level they can.

Considering the fact that there will be different difficulty levels in large scale raid encounters determined by speed of completion, I would say that there will absolutely be different levels of play. Different levels of play means that if not enough people are performing at a high enough level, then you won't be able to access the higher levels of content. And for you to suggest that people should lay down and not use objective measures to improve themselves... really speaks measures as to what kind of player you are, and the level of entitlement you have. You clearly have not only played in a game or at a level where people use DPS meters, but also have little to no understanding as to what a DPS meter actually tells you. It's not as simple as you think, and there is tons of theory crafting that goes into it. You are not as good of a player as you think you are.

It doesn't matter in the end, Steven Sharif has already confirmed that players will have access to a text-based combat log that we will be able to export and analyze for our own purposes. I look forward to the creation of asheslogs.com. Cope.

I have played many games with DPS Meters in fact. I do not like to download third party tools if I can help it though. I've downloaded new UIs, other Add-ons too. In fact, I've raided in the tops raids but I am a PvPer at heart. In PvP the best rotation will not save you, in PvP the Combat Tracker can't save you, in PvP PvE centric skills will not save you. You are critical but you can't wait for a combat translator? We will have Combat Logs but I don't even read the combat logs unless there is a chat panel for the combat logs to flow through. Also, the contestation factor will be the height of the challenges, not an enrage timer or a DPS Meter check. Try running through a DPS Meter check when you face PvP at the same time. The game needs to be playable, not impossible.

You might have 20% where the instanced content could be more difficult than open world bosses but even those will not require a DPS Meter. You would think that a game made by someone who has played the same games as me would have an inbuilt DPS Meter but no, we are in agreement that DPS Meters dictate the content which can be made and cause DPS Checks to become more frequent, Rage Mechanics to become more frequent and eventually LFR to become more frequent.

ThexBlackxKnight

Maezriel wrote: »

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

@Trax

Not necessarily what I want , its what going to happen because guilds will do anything to maximize their potential to win because you kind of have to win , its not really a choice if you want to be successful in the game, its how its being designed.

Whereas I also would like to have some way of tracking my own stats in game I don't foresee guilds being this bad w/ the gatekeeping b/c even if you don't perform to the absolute highest standard that can be offset by having a high gathering level...also some DPS is better than no DPS and I don't foresee someone getting kicked b/c the other 39 members of the raid are insanely kitted to the teeth, even in Classic you had plenty of warm bodies carried through and there's nothing to indicate Ashes raids are going to be any harder than what people cleared during Wrath.

We will see how long charity will last with some guilds if they keep losing loot to other guilds because they cant output enough damage on a raid boss. In WoW that wasnt much of concern, most raid bosses where in instance dungeons. Again not saying it what I want , but know how players behave when it come getting thier loot.

Maezriel

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

@Trax

Not necessarily what I want , its what going to happen because guilds will do anything to maximize their potential to win because you kind of have to win , its not really a choice if you want to be successful in the game, its how its being designed.

Whereas I also would like to have some way of tracking my own stats in game I don't foresee guilds being this bad w/ the gatekeeping b/c even if you don't perform to the absolute highest standard that can be offset by having a high gathering level...also some DPS is better than no DPS and I don't foresee someone getting kicked b/c the other 39 members of the raid are insanely kitted to the teeth, even in Classic you had plenty of warm bodies carried through and there's nothing to indicate Ashes raids are going to be any harder than what people cleared during Wrath.

We will see how long charity will last with some guilds if they keep losing loot to other guilds because they cant output enough damage on a raid boss. In WoW that wasnt much of concern, most raid bosses where in instance dungeons. Again not saying it what I want , but know how players behave when it come getting thier loot.

I still think you're putting to much faith in Intrepid to make raids that are actually that hard. These bosses will largely be out in the world where 80+ people smacking it and everyone else around is just going to turn it into a chaotic mess.

Honestly I'd have serious doubts about Intrepid's ability to make a game if they put a boss harder than Ragnaros in the middle of Alterac Valley

ThexBlackxKnight

Maezriel wrote: »

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

@Trax

Not necessarily what I want , its what going to happen because guilds will do anything to maximize their potential to win because you kind of have to win , its not really a choice if you want to be successful in the game, its how its being designed.

Whereas I also would like to have some way of tracking my own stats in game I don't foresee guilds being this bad w/ the gatekeeping b/c even if you don't perform to the absolute highest standard that can be offset by having a high gathering level...also some DPS is better than no DPS and I don't foresee someone getting kicked b/c the other 39 members of the raid are insanely kitted to the teeth, even in Classic you had plenty of warm bodies carried through and there's nothing to indicate Ashes raids are going to be any harder than what people cleared during Wrath.

We will see how long charity will last with some guilds if they keep losing loot to other guilds because they cant output enough damage on a raid boss. In WoW that wasnt much of concern, most raid bosses where in instance dungeons. Again not saying it what I want , but know how players behave when it come getting thier loot.

I still think you're putting to much faith in Intrepid to make raids that are actually that hard. These bosses will largely be out in the world where 80+ people smacking it and everyone else around is just going to turn it into a chaotic mess.

Honestly I'd have serious doubts about Intrepid's ability to make a game if they put a boss harder than Ragnaros in the middle of Alterac Valley

Its not about if the bosses are hard or not , you still have to do out damage any guild trying to steal the kill from you to get the loot.

roost

Maezriel wrote: »

I still think you're putting to much faith in Intrepid to make raids that are actually that hard. These bosses will largely be out in the world where 80+ people smacking it and everyone else around is just going to turn it into a chaotic mess.

Honestly I'd have serious doubts about Intrepid's ability to make a game if they put a boss harder than Ragnaros in the middle of Alterac Valley

Where does this idea come from that world bosses should be easy encounters? Why should they be? It's far more epic and engaging to have an extremely difficult dragon hanging out in a cave or something that only the strongest adventurers can handle. Maybe even getting 40 people close enough to the thing is hard enough by itself. World bosses should have varying levels of difficulty imo, especially if the majority of content will be world bosses

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

You can't have proper competition unless the rules are fair. So far, your plans to have a DPS Meter whether IS sanctifies a DPS Meter or not is not competition, it is cheating.

If we all have the same access to them, and some people chose to not use them, they cant complain of an unfair advantage.

From there though, assuming Intrepid maintain their current stance, you have the conundrum of trying to work out if it is an unfair advantage for me to use a tool I created myself. If that is the case, does that mean anyone assembling a spreadsheet with data on classes, or crafting, or sales, or what ever else is also cheating?

I mean, is it unfair if you put your own abilities to good use?

Dygz

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

What can you do in this game that pvp wont interfere with? You can spend all your time in a city tell pvp destroys your city through a siege , travel around the world gathering flowers tell some corrupted rogue kills you for the fun of it. Most carebears wont even touch this game because you have no immunity to being attack in pvp.

What can I do in life that death can't interfere with?
Just because death can interfere with my life, that doesn't mean it's a death-centric world.

Whether carebears play the game depends on whether Corruption truly is the deterrent the devs believe it will be.

ThexBlackxKnight

Dygz wrote: »

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

What can you do in this game that pvp wont interfere with? You can spend all your time in a city tell pvp destroys your city through a siege , travel around the world gathering flowers tell some corrupted rogue kills you for the fun of it. Most carebears wont even touch this game because you have no immunity to being attack in pvp.

What can I do in life that death can't interfere with?
Just because death can interfere with my life, that doesn't mean it's a death-centric world.

Whether carebears play the game depends on whether Corruption truly is the deterrent the devs believe it will be.

I will keep those words in mind when I am being spawn camp by a group of players , each taking turns to kill me to reduce the amount of corruption they are taking.

Dygz

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

We will see how long charity will last with some guilds if they keep losing loot to other guilds because they cant output enough damage on a raid boss. In WoW that wasnt much of concern, most raid bosses where in instance dungeons. Again not saying it what I want , but know how players behave when it come getting thier loot.

Killing the boss will be more important than loot. Loot is just a nice bonus.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

We will see how long charity will last with some guilds if they keep losing loot to other guilds because they cant output enough damage on a raid boss. In WoW that wasnt much of concern, most raid bosses where in instance dungeons. Again not saying it what I want , but know how players behave when it come getting thier loot.

Killing the boss will be more important than loot. Loot is just a nice bonus.

If there is any form of raid progression, loot is the key that that progression.

Anyone that thinks loot is a bonus has no idea of gaming at all, any genre.

Loot is either a reward or a key.

ThexBlackxKnight

Dygz wrote: »

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

We will see how long charity will last with some guilds if they keep losing loot to other guilds because they cant output enough damage on a raid boss. In WoW that wasnt much of concern, most raid bosses where in instance dungeons. Again not saying it what I want , but know how players behave when it come getting thier loot.

Killing the boss will be more important than loot. Loot is just a nice bonus.

Maybe for you which is fine and I can assure you most players are not going to like another guild swooping in and kill stealing the last boss in a open world dungeon taking the other guilds rewards away from them after they spent a few hours clearing a path there.

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