The immersion I totally understand. I personally don’t think having a dps meter on your screen in an open world PvP setting is going to be much use anyway.
As a tank I do actually want some tool to review combat as no tool tip is going to explain what’s killing me. This is why I’m trying to find a compromise.
Damage tracking is better used for preparation and character building. If my guild keeps losing looting rights to a raid boss to some other guild, I would like to know the reasons why and help players in guild improve their damage output , that way the guild will get better gear and will perform better in pvp.
For the immersion that's why I'm pushing for a DPS meter in a specific training zone opened at certain Node levels so you can wave it off as an NPC tracking stats for you.
For the gatekeeping part...in high enough content people will boot you if you're under a certain DPS b/c some WoW bosses are flat out DPS checks and it just can't be helped at a mathematical level. I doubt that'll be the case in AoC...however as you can see by the comment above yours....people will find other ways of gatekeeping regardless
Only way training dummy works is if you aren’t allowed to ask people for their dps number otherwise it’ll be used as a gatekeeping tool and not a self assessment. I’m aware dps isn’t as important in open world PvP as it is in instanced PvE.
We must have different ideas of gatekeeping. Anyone that got in to the group and couldn’t reach expectations, I don’t believe can claim gatekeeping. They made it in but just wasn’t good enough. But the reason they get booted is usually because they can be instantly replaced through group finder and instance teleporting. I don’t know how high you’re referring to so I have to guess.
The immersion I totally understand. I personally don’t think having a dps meter on your screen in an open world PvP setting is going to be much use anyway.
As a top tier raid DPS for almost 20 years, I've never run a combat tracker on screen during combat.
There is just no need.
I always run one, and will run one in Ashes, there just isn't a need for visual real time feedback from it.
The immersion I totally understand. I personally don’t think having a dps meter on your screen in an open world PvP setting is going to be much use anyway.
As a top tier raid DPS for almost 20 years, I've never run a combat tracker on screen during combat.
I’m sure not everyone uses a third party software that isn’t supported in game so can’t just plop it in the corner of the screen.
From my experience people that use meters use them from wipe to wipe to see what went wrong. The meters (addons) are left in the corner of the screen for convenience and not bed they’re looked at throughout the fight
Thing is I wasn’t talking about the third party systems you use and I certainly don’t care for you making my point about yourself.
For the immersion that's why I'm pushing for a DPS meter in a specific training zone opened at certain Node levels so you can wave it off as an NPC tracking stats for you.
For the gatekeeping part...in high enough content people will boot you if you're under a certain DPS b/c some WoW bosses are flat out DPS checks and it just can't be helped at a mathematical level. I doubt that'll be the case in AoC...however as you can see by the comment above yours....people will find other ways of gatekeeping regardless
Only way training dummy works is if you aren’t allowed to ask people for their dps number otherwise it’ll be used as a gatekeeping tool and not a self assessment. I’m aware dps isn’t as important in open world PvP as it is in instanced PvE.
We must have different ideas of gatekeeping. Anyone that got in to the group and couldn’t reach expectations, I don’t believe can claim gatekeeping. They made it in but just wasn’t good enough. But the reason they get booted is usually because they can be instantly replaced through group finder and instance teleporting. I don’t know how high you’re referring to so I have to guess.
I mean, gatekeeping will always happen to some degree regardless of what Intrepid does but I really think people overreact a little bit in terms of Meters for the exact reason you touched upon...there's no LFG, no teleports, none of the QoL stuff that made it possible for WoW groups to min-max their party to an obscene degree.
For AoC even those that "don't cut it" will likely still be taken along to the fight b/c just like in Vanilla raids some DPS is better than none and the bosses are meant to be tackled by massive teams not groups of 5 so that individual contribution is significantly less.
Overall would meters have a huge impact on the game? Likely not...that's why the arguments against them are kinda moot b/c they're literally just for those of us who like to dig into the numbers for the sake of the numbers there's no real reason to believe they'll make the game degenerate for others b/c there's no real downside to having non min-maxers in a group like there is in games as tightly wound as WoW or FF14
If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
The immersion I totally understand. I personally don’t think having a dps meter on your screen in an open world PvP setting is going to be much use anyway.
As a top tier raid DPS for almost 20 years, I've never run a combat tracker on screen during combat.
I’m sure not everyone uses a third party software that isn’t supported in game so can’t just plop it in the corner of the screen.
From my experience people that use meters use them from wipe to wipe to see what went wrong. The meters (addons) are left in the corner of the screen for convenience and not bed they’re looked at throughout the fight
Thing is I wasn’t talking about the third party systems you use and I certainly don’t care for you making my point about yourself.
A good combat tracker is not something you can just leave in the corner of the screen.
The point I was making is that even at the top end of MMORPG's, there is no place for the argument that a combat tracker has any effect at all on immersion.
It is not something that you need to interact with during the game, and if the game supports combat trackers, it is not even something you need to have running while you play - you can simply load the log file in to the tracker at a later time and go over things.
So again, the point I am making here is that there is simply no argument that a combat tracker has any impact on immersion.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I do not have a "fear" of meters, I just do not think they belong. Exclusion due to DPS is the least of my worries, I am either good enough, or I am not. If I am not, I will work on those issues through practice and time, not some outside program to tell me exactly what the issue is and speeding up my progress.
Right. I don't know why people tend to believe the people complaining are complaining about personally being kicked. It feels shitty to watch other people get kicked - especially when your philosophy is to find ways to succeed even with the weaknesses of some people in the group. That can be accomplished without relying on DPS, DPS meters and combat trackers.
If an MMO is a world that your character supposedly lives in, where do spreadsheets exist? I have yet to see an MMO with a spreadsheet drop table... Basically I believe in playing with what the game gives you and not using addons from another developer or dedicated player who is just looking for a quick fix.
Exactly.
Maybe it is age on my part.. I lived at a time when things were not always instant, where as today's generation is used to having all the answers given to them at the push of a button. Do not get me wrong, I love technology and what it has given us, but there are times when doing things the hard way make the experience more joyful, It gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment.
I dunno about age...it's always felt to me to be the gamer approach vs the RP approach.
Roll play v roleplay.
What I want out of MMORPG combat is to focus on synergizing the abilities people in the group like to use (according the characters they have individually crafted) rather than focusing on the numbers that will provide maximum efficiency). I'd rather strive to maximize Shadow abilities or Frost abilities for those characters who use those abilities rather than force a Feral Druid to switch to Restoration Druid or force a Shadow Guardian to switch to Guardian just because a combat tracker indicates Restoration Druid and Guardian result in the highest DPS.
It feels shitty to watch other people get kicked - especially when your philosophy is to find ways to succeed even with the weaknesses of some people in the group. That can be accomplished without relying on DPS, DPS meters and combat trackers.
I've not met anyone that enjoys watching others get kicked from groups - but I've also never seen or heard first hand from someone I know of someone getting kicked from a group.
However, I do agree with you in regards to work with weaknesses of people. We do it all the time in top end guilds. Some times it is in getting people to not have those weaknesses, other times it is in making sure they are not in a position where that weakness will cause issues, and sometimes we pass the task that the weakness in question prevents the player from doing on to someone else.
So I’m playing with the idea of a crafted combat tracking Crystal (made through some jewel and enchanting combo. Definitely not easy to make).
You place it on the ground (or just use) before each fight you want to “record”
Afterwards you can take said crystal(s) to a library to analyse the data.
What I’m thinking gets tracked is, but not limited to
Damage done (and to what)
Damage taken (and by what)
Healing done (and to who)
Deaths (by what)
Activity %
How far away is that from what both sides want?
0
Options
ThexBlackxKnightMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What I want out of MMORPG combat is to focus on synergizing the abilities people in the group like to use (according the characters they have individually crafted) rather than focusing on the numbers that will provide maximum efficiency). I'd rather strive to maximize Shadow abilities or Frost abilities for those characters who use those abilities rather than force a Feral Druid to switch to Restoration Druid or force a Shadow Guardian to switch to Guardian just because a combat tracker indicates Restoration Druid and Guardian result in the highest DPS.
There will always be a meta and Ashes combat so far seems no different then other mmorpgs when it come to that. Pvp players will squeeze any advantage they can get in their builds to make sure they kill your character. Players not performing will be bench for better players because you wont be getting any good loot if you cant put out the most damage on a raid boss or you are going to be homeless because your node just got destroyed because the people defending the siege where underperforming when better players could of been in their spots to prevent that from happening. You can't take the competitiveness out of a competitive game.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2021
LMAO.
I'm not super worried about what happens in battlegrounds.
Outside of battlegrounds, either Corruption works to my satisfaction or it doesn't and I won't play.
I don't really care who wins a PvP battle outside of battlegrounds.
But, your bravado means nothing to me. It's just bullshit bragging as far as I'm concerned.
Competitiveness really has nothing to do with this topic.
No has claimed that not supporting DPS meters will remove competitiveness or that competitiveness is toxic.
There will always be a meta and Ashes combat so far seems no different then other mmorpgs when it come to that. Pvp players will squeeze any advantage they can get in their builds to make sure they kill your character. Players not performing will be bench for better players because you wont be getting any good loot if you cant put out the most damage on a raid boss or you are going to be homeless because your node just got destroyed because the people defending the siege where underperforming when better players could of been in their spots to prevent that from happening. You can't take the competitiveness out of a competitive game.
Mostly true, all though in games with sandbox elements, and even without, communities do arise that have different goals than being competitive.
Regardless, games with more fierce competitiveness due to higher stakes have already existed, and done so without meters. I’m fact, the methodology employed to determine skill ranking (large scale communal dueling, tryouts by dueling, dueling tournaments, etc.) is more beneficial to the overall health of the game than adding a data parser which gives you the answer generically. In fact, you’ll derive more information about a players ability by dueling them than you will by looking at a meter. And more importantly, you’re spending your time playing the game instead of analyzing spreadsheets or looking at websites. Dueling is superior to meters. Meters are unnecessary.
Wow its so cool to see that everyone was able to finally come to an understanding on DPS meters
I admit that I was a little pessimistic on the fifth or so compromise proposal thread, but I'm happy to say I've eaten my words. I just needed to give it time. People really started to listen to each other and not polarize based on slippery slope conjecture.
Noanni and Dygz finally seeing eye to eye I see and dare I say, even blossoming a friendship?
I don't really want DPS Dummies, I'd rather have a DPS Meter or no DPS Meter. The reason is down to threat generation and how threat generation matches or fails when faced with Min/Maxed DPS. I would like some indication of my threat generation and Personal Dummies will only give me a number, not a correlation.
Edit: If the Devs gives Tanks a goad I won't care for a DPS Meter because I can simply Goad off the min/maxed DPS.
0
Options
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
should we merge this with the DPS thread at this point?
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
It won't matter Nagash because the compromise threads always end up with debates over parsers. That is why the older threads get left behind, as soon as a new thread opens the arguments can repeat with the same arguments from both sides.
Edit: Spelling mistakes.
1
Options
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It won't matter Nagash because the compromise threads always end up with debates over parsers. That is why the older threads get left behind, as soon as a new thread opens the arguments can repeat with the same arguments from both sides.
Edit: Spelling mistakes.
It just makes it easier to ignore if its all in one place
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Yeah, I've asked before why the threads don't get merged into the mega thread but I think the Devs have given up on the argument or even trying to curtail the argument. The Devs will just do what they want and the game will launch lol.
0
Options
ThexBlackxKnightMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
LMAO.
I'm not super worried about what happens in battlegrounds.
Outside of battlegrounds, either Corruption works to my satisfaction or it doesn't and I won't play.
I don't really care who wins a PvP battle outside of battlegrounds.
But, your bravado means nothing to me. It's just bullshit bragging as far as I'm concerned.
Competitiveness really has nothing to do with this topic.
No has claimed that not supporting DPS meters will remove competitiveness or that competitiveness is toxic.
Bravado has nothing to do with pointing out that guilds will calculating their damage one way or another because that is what they do in most mmorpgs. This is a pvp centric game so yeah competition is kind of the the fabric of what game is being built on. Corruption is not pvp immunity and your going to be attack by players so not sure why you really care that much about damage meters if you are not even going to play the game over pvp.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2021
Of course you don't understand.
Because all you care about is direct PvP combat.
Which is why you think that a PvX game is PvP-centric.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yeah, I've asked before why the threads don't get merged into the mega thread but I think the Devs have given up on the argument or even trying to curtail the argument. The Devs will just do what they want and the game will launch lol.
That's all the devs would be doing if they had to merge the threads every time someone makes a new one.
0
Options
ThexBlackxKnightMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Of course you don't understand.
Because all you care about is direct PvP combat.
Which is why you think that a PvX game is PvP-centric.
More pvp centric then pve , in fact all pve content will be contested by pvp. Steven gave a reason for the corruption system so that you can remove unwanted groups from pve farming spots.
0
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It is PvX.
"More PvP-centric" is your own bias.
0
Options
ThexBlackxKnightMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What can you do in this game that pvp wont interfere with? You can spend all your time in a city tell pvp destroys your city through a siege , travel around the world gathering flowers tell some corrupted rogue kills you for the fun of it. Most carebears wont even touch this game because you have no immunity to being attack in pvp.
Competitiveness really has nothing to do with this topic.
It has literally everything to do with this topic.
People that want combatvtrackers want them because it allows them to compete better - whether that is in PvE or PvP.
The knowledge and insights gained while using a combat tracker to create a build will always be of use to the person that understands, no matter what the build.
If it turns out that the meta of sieges is stealth, a combat tracker can be used to help you build the best stealth build - if you know the right things to look for.
I am not at all sure how you can claim this topic is not about competitiveness, when that is literally the heart of it.
You can't have proper competition unless the rules are fair. So far, your plans to have a DPS Meter whether IS sanctifies a DPS Meter or not is not competition, it is cheating.
There will always be a meta and Ashes combat so far seems no different then other mmorpgs when it come to that. Pvp players will squeeze any advantage they can get in their builds to make sure they kill your character. Players not performing will be bench for better players because you wont be getting any good loot if you cant put out the most damage on a raid boss or you are going to be homeless because your node just got destroyed because the people defending the siege where underperforming when better players could of been in their spots to prevent that from happening. You can't take the competitiveness out of a competitive game.
Mostly true, all though in games with sandbox elements, and even without, communities do arise that have different goals than being competitive.
Regardless, games with more fierce competitiveness due to higher stakes have already existed, and done so without meters. I’m fact, the methodology employed to determine skill ranking (large scale communal dueling, tryouts by dueling, dueling tournaments, etc.) is more beneficial to the overall health of the game than adding a data parser which gives you the answer generically. In fact, you’ll derive more information about a players ability by dueling them than you will by looking at a meter. And more importantly, you’re spending your time playing the game instead of analyzing spreadsheets or looking at websites. Dueling is superior to meters. Meters are unnecessary.
I'm not sure I see where one cancels out the other. There's no reason that if @Noaani uses a DPS meter to assist in building his character that he won't be forced to back it up in an actual duel. It's not like in WoW where there will be a RaiderIO to determine skill...and hell there's already Achievements planned so if people really wanted to gatekeep Meters aren't going to be how it's done.
If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
Comments
Damage tracking is better used for preparation and character building. If my guild keeps losing looting rights to a raid boss to some other guild, I would like to know the reasons why and help players in guild improve their damage output , that way the guild will get better gear and will perform better in pvp.
Only way training dummy works is if you aren’t allowed to ask people for their dps number otherwise it’ll be used as a gatekeeping tool and not a self assessment. I’m aware dps isn’t as important in open world PvP as it is in instanced PvE.
We must have different ideas of gatekeeping. Anyone that got in to the group and couldn’t reach expectations, I don’t believe can claim gatekeeping. They made it in but just wasn’t good enough. But the reason they get booted is usually because they can be instantly replaced through group finder and instance teleporting. I don’t know how high you’re referring to so I have to guess.
There is just no need.
I always run one, and will run one in Ashes, there just isn't a need for visual real time feedback from it.
I’m sure not everyone uses a third party software that isn’t supported in game so can’t just plop it in the corner of the screen.
From my experience people that use meters use them from wipe to wipe to see what went wrong. The meters (addons) are left in the corner of the screen for convenience and not bed they’re looked at throughout the fight
Thing is I wasn’t talking about the third party systems you use and I certainly don’t care for you making my point about yourself.
I mean, gatekeeping will always happen to some degree regardless of what Intrepid does but I really think people overreact a little bit in terms of Meters for the exact reason you touched upon...there's no LFG, no teleports, none of the QoL stuff that made it possible for WoW groups to min-max their party to an obscene degree.
For AoC even those that "don't cut it" will likely still be taken along to the fight b/c just like in Vanilla raids some DPS is better than none and the bosses are meant to be tackled by massive teams not groups of 5 so that individual contribution is significantly less.
Overall would meters have a huge impact on the game? Likely not...that's why the arguments against them are kinda moot b/c they're literally just for those of us who like to dig into the numbers for the sake of the numbers there's no real reason to believe they'll make the game degenerate for others b/c there's no real downside to having non min-maxers in a group like there is in games as tightly wound as WoW or FF14
The point I was making is that even at the top end of MMORPG's, there is no place for the argument that a combat tracker has any effect at all on immersion.
It is not something that you need to interact with during the game, and if the game supports combat trackers, it is not even something you need to have running while you play - you can simply load the log file in to the tracker at a later time and go over things.
So again, the point I am making here is that there is simply no argument that a combat tracker has any impact on immersion.
Exactly.
I dunno about age...it's always felt to me to be the gamer approach vs the RP approach.
Roll play v roleplay.
What I want out of MMORPG combat is to focus on synergizing the abilities people in the group like to use (according the characters they have individually crafted) rather than focusing on the numbers that will provide maximum efficiency). I'd rather strive to maximize Shadow abilities or Frost abilities for those characters who use those abilities rather than force a Feral Druid to switch to Restoration Druid or force a Shadow Guardian to switch to Guardian just because a combat tracker indicates Restoration Druid and Guardian result in the highest DPS.
However, I do agree with you in regards to work with weaknesses of people. We do it all the time in top end guilds. Some times it is in getting people to not have those weaknesses, other times it is in making sure they are not in a position where that weakness will cause issues, and sometimes we pass the task that the weakness in question prevents the player from doing on to someone else.
You know what makes this process easier?
Knowing what is actually going on.
You place it on the ground (or just use) before each fight you want to “record”
Afterwards you can take said crystal(s) to a library to analyse the data.
What I’m thinking gets tracked is, but not limited to
Damage done (and to what)
Damage taken (and by what)
Healing done (and to who)
Deaths (by what)
Activity %
How far away is that from what both sides want?
There will always be a meta and Ashes combat so far seems no different then other mmorpgs when it come to that. Pvp players will squeeze any advantage they can get in their builds to make sure they kill your character. Players not performing will be bench for better players because you wont be getting any good loot if you cant put out the most damage on a raid boss or you are going to be homeless because your node just got destroyed because the people defending the siege where underperforming when better players could of been in their spots to prevent that from happening. You can't take the competitiveness out of a competitive game.
I'm not super worried about what happens in battlegrounds.
Outside of battlegrounds, either Corruption works to my satisfaction or it doesn't and I won't play.
I don't really care who wins a PvP battle outside of battlegrounds.
But, your bravado means nothing to me. It's just bullshit bragging as far as I'm concerned.
Competitiveness really has nothing to do with this topic.
No has claimed that not supporting DPS meters will remove competitiveness or that competitiveness is toxic.
The classes are so early and combat so incredibly far from remotely set up that we really don't know yet.
Mostly true, all though in games with sandbox elements, and even without, communities do arise that have different goals than being competitive.
Regardless, games with more fierce competitiveness due to higher stakes have already existed, and done so without meters. I’m fact, the methodology employed to determine skill ranking (large scale communal dueling, tryouts by dueling, dueling tournaments, etc.) is more beneficial to the overall health of the game than adding a data parser which gives you the answer generically. In fact, you’ll derive more information about a players ability by dueling them than you will by looking at a meter. And more importantly, you’re spending your time playing the game instead of analyzing spreadsheets or looking at websites. Dueling is superior to meters. Meters are unnecessary.
I admit that I was a little pessimistic on the fifth or so compromise proposal thread, but I'm happy to say I've eaten my words. I just needed to give it time. People really started to listen to each other and not polarize based on slippery slope conjecture.
Noanni and Dygz finally seeing eye to eye I see and dare I say, even blossoming a friendship?
Edit: If the Devs gives Tanks a goad I won't care for a DPS Meter because I can simply Goad off the min/maxed DPS.
Edit: Spelling mistakes.
It just makes it easier to ignore if its all in one place
Bravado has nothing to do with pointing out that guilds will calculating their damage one way or another because that is what they do in most mmorpgs. This is a pvp centric game so yeah competition is kind of the the fabric of what game is being built on. Corruption is not pvp immunity and your going to be attack by players so not sure why you really care that much about damage meters if you are not even going to play the game over pvp.
Because all you care about is direct PvP combat.
Which is why you think that a PvX game is PvP-centric.
More pvp centric then pve , in fact all pve content will be contested by pvp. Steven gave a reason for the corruption system so that you can remove unwanted groups from pve farming spots.
"More PvP-centric" is your own bias.
What can you do in this game that pvp wont interfere with? You can spend all your time in a city tell pvp destroys your city through a siege , travel around the world gathering flowers tell some corrupted rogue kills you for the fun of it. Most carebears wont even touch this game because you have no immunity to being attack in pvp.
People that want combatvtrackers want them because it allows them to compete better - whether that is in PvE or PvP.
The knowledge and insights gained while using a combat tracker to create a build will always be of use to the person that understands, no matter what the build.
If it turns out that the meta of sieges is stealth, a combat tracker can be used to help you build the best stealth build - if you know the right things to look for.
I am not at all sure how you can claim this topic is not about competitiveness, when that is literally the heart of it.
I'm not sure I see where one cancels out the other. There's no reason that if @Noaani uses a DPS meter to assist in building his character that he won't be forced to back it up in an actual duel. It's not like in WoW where there will be a RaiderIO to determine skill...and hell there's already Achievements planned so if people really wanted to gatekeep Meters aren't going to be how it's done.