ThexBlackxKnight wrote: » Dygz wrote: » You don't have to kill them. You may have to survive them - if they are there. The character with the high Sneak does not have to be the one to kill them. And, the defenders don't have to be killed - distracting them long enough can also work. High CC could work for that instead of high damage. And, again, all of that is really about points allotted to the skill trees. As someone who has pvped in a lot of mmorpgs I can tell you it wont play out that way , pvp will always be about killing the opposition , no defender will be remaining alive around the relic if the attackers win.
Dygz wrote: » You don't have to kill them. You may have to survive them - if they are there. The character with the high Sneak does not have to be the one to kill them. And, the defenders don't have to be killed - distracting them long enough can also work. High CC could work for that instead of high damage. And, again, all of that is really about points allotted to the skill trees.
Recluse74 wrote: » DPS meters in PvP are useless when in comes to mass or even large group PvP. It might be slightly useful in some smaller scale PvP like 1 v 1 or 2 v 2, but the PvP that will matter the most in this game will be mass PvP. The amount of focused killing that will go on... I don't care if you are playing the hardest hitting character on the server, if you get focused, you wont last 2 seconds. So as some of you can see, meters are not needed for the PvP content.
Recluse74 wrote: » DPS meters in PvP are useless when in comes to mass or even large group PvP. It might be slightly useful in some smaller scale PvP like 1 v 1 or 2 v 2, but the PvP that will matter the most in this game will be mass PvP. The amount of focused killing that will go on... I don't care if you are playing the hardest hitting character on the server, if you get focused, you wont last 2 seconds. So as some of you can see, meters are not needed for the PvP content. So what you end up having is one group (PvE players) having the advantage of addons assisting them with in game content while PvP players get no benefit at all. There was a suggestion that when guilds reach a certain level, instead of getting a buff, the PvE guilds would get a meter instead. What would PvP players get as a buff that would equal an addon that tells you how to build your character perfectly to obtain maximum damage? Seriously, what buff could you offer the PvP community that would equal what PvE players are getting in a meter? If raid bosses have the best drops, and the PvE community gets a tool to help them topple this content, what do we get? Any legitimate suggestions?
Recluse74 wrote: » DPS meters in PvP are useless when in comes to mass or even large group PvP.
Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » DPS meters in PvP are useless when in comes to mass or even large group PvP. It might be slightly useful in some smaller scale PvP like 1 v 1 or 2 v 2, but the PvP that will matter the most in this game will be mass PvP. The amount of focused killing that will go on... I don't care if you are playing the hardest hitting character on the server, if you get focused, you wont last 2 seconds. So as some of you can see, meters are not needed for the PvP content. So what you end up having is one group (PvE players) having the advantage of addons assisting them with in game content while PvP players get no benefit at all. There was a suggestion that when guilds reach a certain level, instead of getting a buff, the PvE guilds would get a meter instead. What would PvP players get as a buff that would equal an addon that tells you how to build your character perfectly to obtain maximum damage? Seriously, what buff could you offer the PvP community that would equal what PvE players are getting in a meter? If raid bosses have the best drops, and the PvE community gets a tool to help them topple this content, what do we get? Any legitimate suggestions? The original intent of the thread wasn't to vouch for meters but to at least show numbers on the tooltip rather than the "small heal" they currently have. Do we need full meters? Realistically no, minmaxers can survive w/ a small stopwatch and a few minutes on a training dummy. Hell AoC could even go so far as to simply have training areas w/ meters but disable them outside...I honestly think this would make most everyone happy. The biggest issue I've seen from this topic is that the game isn't supposed to be "care bear friendly" yet people are bending over backwards to eliminate any type of min-maxing in a weird attempt to curb toxicity and the mindset just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here.
Dygz wrote: » Objective-based PvP combat isn't necessarily about those who build and play the "stronger" character. Especially the way Ashes is designed with rock-paper-scissors to have groups working together. RPGs are intended to be more about the team work - the group maximizing whatever individual strengths to create group strength while shoring up each other's weaknesses. In Ashes, a Rogue having strong Stealth may be more important than having high DPS.
Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » DPS meters in PvP are useless when in comes to mass or even large group PvP. In combat, yes. Before combat though, when you are working out the best builds, a combat tracker is still invaluable to PvP situations. Also, comparing what a PvE player gets vs what a PvP player gets (based on my suggestion that a combat tracker be added to the game as a guild perk) is a flawed concept. If a PvE player wants to raid, they have no choice but to pick the combat tracker. Rather than being a boon for PvE raiding, it is an essential. It is like saying "well, if the guy in a car has four tires, what do we give the guy on the bike that only has 2?". Assuming Intrepid want to support a top end raid scene, a combat tracker is an outright necessity for those players. As such, literally anything a PvP player opts to take in it's place is better. If there is a choice between a combat tracker and 5 additional HP, those 5 HP are literally free to someone that has no use for a combat tracker, and are literally unavailable to a top end raider.
Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone.
Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » DPS meters in PvP are useless when in comes to mass or even large group PvP. In combat, yes. Before combat though, when you are working out the best builds, a combat tracker is still invaluable to PvP situations. Also, comparing what a PvE player gets vs what a PvP player gets (based on my suggestion that a combat tracker be added to the game as a guild perk) is a flawed concept. If a PvE player wants to raid, they have no choice but to pick the combat tracker. Rather than being a boon for PvE raiding, it is an essential. It is like saying "well, if the guy in a car has four tires, what do we give the guy on the bike that only has 2?". Assuming Intrepid want to support a top end raid scene, a combat tracker is an outright necessity for those players. As such, literally anything a PvP player opts to take in it's place is better. If there is a choice between a combat tracker and 5 additional HP, those 5 HP are literally free to someone that has no use for a combat tracker, and are literally unavailable to a top end raider. I can work out the best PvP damage for character all I want... in Mass PvP, it matters none, because your DPS output is a big fat ZERO when you are dead from getting focused down by multiple people. PvP comes down to group synergy, and having a good driver or shot caller. Also you are assuming your idea of a top end raiding scene and Intrepid's idea are one in the same. I can almost bet, they are not even close. Analogy = Bad, like.... real bad. When we both log into AoC for the first time, our vehicles (characters) are not different... they are the same. You are asking for tools that will ultimately give your character access to better drops, which in turn helps you in the economic realm, and we get 5 HP... thanks... lmao. Guild Leader: " Ok everyone, we have a choice to make. Do you want to take the DPS meter that will help us max out our damage and enable us to kill all of the top tier raid bosses in the world, giving us access to the best drops in the game. Ooooooor.... Do you wan to go the PvP route and get 5 extra HP that calculates to .000000000022117 extra time you have to live in Mass PvP?" In before "The 5 HP was just an example".......... Stop giving examples if they are not even close to helpful. 5 extra HP in PvP... all I can do is laugh.
Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight.
Tragnar wrote: » Dont forget that if aoe is either restricted or massively stronger on 1 archetype then serious pvp players will just relog on aoe alt for sieges or if there is an item that does big aoe then those people will use that instead however to balance the pvp around massive pvp battles is not healthy for the game - those battles are promoted as "peak pvp experience" and not how all of pvp will work
Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight. When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like: * Rotation A in gear set A * Rotation B in gear set A * Rotation A in gear set B * Rotation B in gear set B * etc Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for. It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool.
