I agree, in a game that's supposedly doesn't cater to "care bears" and where the winning condition for many of the events is literally who does the most DPS it's kinda crazy to have people request having numbers on our tooltips.
Perspective is a funny thing. See, from my perspective damage meters are a form of carebear hand holding where you are receiving artificial feedback from a script about how your performance is. To me, it’s more hardcore to go out and figure it out through trial and error.
Combat trackers (or DPS meters, or damage meters) dont tell you much, all they do is answer a single question - what just happened?
Using a combat tracker is still trial and error, the only difference is a combat tracker gives you objective data on those trials.
As Adam Savage once said, the difference between science and goofing around, is writing things down.
If you are going out to try and come up with a good build without a damage meter, you are just goofing around. Add in the objective data from a combat tracker, and you are suddenly doing something that has at least a chance to be accurate.
That objective data allows you to perform the task you are performing (creating a good build) properly. Rather than being a case of carebear or not, it is a case of wanting to do the task properly vs not caring if it is done properly.
When I am creating a build, I want it to be objectively "correct" for its purpose.
I agree, in a game that's supposedly doesn't cater to "care bears" and where the winning condition for many of the events is literally who does the most DPS it's kinda crazy to have people request having numbers on our tooltips.
Perspective is a funny thing. See, from my perspective damage meters are a form of carebear hand holding where you are receiving artificial feedback from a script about how your performance is. To me, it’s more hardcore to go out and figure it out through trial and error.
The vast majority of arguments against being able to min-max isn't about being more "hardcore" it's about trying to limit toxicity b/c people have been so abused by WoW and how tied to the meta you end up being.
If you want a more hardcore experience by going into the wilds w/ a stopwatch then more power to you but there should be a balance between "hardcore" and needlessly exhausting and equipping a weapon to run out and test it while risking XP debt and everything else that's risked then running back to try a different weapon is very much on the needlessly exhausting side.
If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here.
Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for.
On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone.
Open world PvP... that is your argument...
Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens?
What level was the player you fought?
What level/grade gear did you have on?
What level/grade gear did your opponent have on?
What level/grade weapon did you have equipped?
What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped?
What Archetype/Class are you?
What Archetype/Class was your opponent?
What Augments were you using?
What Augments was your opponent using?
See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight.
When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like:
* Rotation A in gear set A
* Rotation B in gear set A
* Rotation A in gear set B
* Rotation B in gear set B
* etc
Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for.
It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool.
Sigh.... me and Noanni have had this convo. Seems that you both are cut from the same cloth so I will exit this convo before I have to listen to the same exact argument over and over again...
I say... I do not want them in game because of reasons A or B.
You say, I do not understand how they work and deny that reasons A or B even exist.
Got ya... lol, good luck in game I guess.
Before you completely leave the conversation what do you say to my comment above yours?
Most arguments against meters is based on a fear of being excluded and I just don't foresee that being as big of a problem simply due to the game naturally limiting your ability to build a "perfect" team.
I do not have a "fear" of meters, I just do not think they belong. Exclusion due to DPS is the least of my worries, I am either good enough, or I am not. If I am not, I will work on those issues through practice and time, not some outside program to tell me exactly what the issue is and speeding up my progress.
If an MMO is a world that your character supposedly lives in, where do spreadsheets exist? I have yet to see an MMO with a spreadsheet drop table... Basically I believe in playing with what the game gives you and not using addons from another developer or dedicated player who is just looking for a quick fix.
Maybe it is age on my part.. I lived at a time when things were not always instant, where as todays generation is used to having all the answers given to them at the push of a button. Do not get me wrong, I love technology and what it has given us, but there are times when doing things the hard way make the experience more joyful, It gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment.
@Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game.
Bruh how old do you think I am? The majority of AoC's fanbase lived at a time when things were not always instant.
As for the spreadsheets...you should look at bodybuilding throughout the years. Humans have always been min-maxers and this was even true all the way back in the old school games like Gaia. Also, no one is asking for third party addons we're asking for intrepid to give us their own DPS meter in game so when I hit a dummy over the course of 30 seconds I have an idea of what my performance was which is no different than working out at the gym and logging it.
If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game.
Did I though?
If you look at the general specifics of the argument for combat trackers being useful in PvP, the following is the reply I gave to Dygz, yet it applies to you.
We are saying that, generally speaking, the side that is best prepared for PvP will win. We are saying that along with developing teamwork, a good part of that preparedness is working with a combat tracker to develop individual players within their various different builds, and to develop synergies between players.
That is a solid, sound statement.
You are arguing against that.
Your answer to this is that DPS doesnt matter because you cant DPS when you're dead.
Who is it that is missed the target by a long shot?
I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here.
Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for.
On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone.
Open world PvP... that is your argument...
Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens?
What level was the player you fought?
What level/grade gear did you have on?
What level/grade gear did your opponent have on?
What level/grade weapon did you have equipped?
What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped?
What Archetype/Class are you?
What Archetype/Class was your opponent?
What Augments were you using?
What Augments was your opponent using?
See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight.
When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like:
* Rotation A in gear set A
* Rotation B in gear set A
* Rotation A in gear set B
* Rotation B in gear set B
* etc
Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for.
It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool.
Sigh.... me and Noanni have had this convo. Seems that you both are cut from the same cloth so I will exit this convo before I have to listen to the same exact argument over and over again...
I say... I do not want them in game because of reasons A or B.
You say, I do not understand how they work and deny that reasons A or B even exist.
Got ya... lol, good luck in game I guess.
Before you completely leave the conversation what do you say to my comment above yours?
Most arguments against meters is based on a fear of being excluded and I just don't foresee that being as big of a problem simply due to the game naturally limiting your ability to build a "perfect" team.
I do not have a "fear" of meters, I just do not think they belong. Exclusion due to DPS is the least of my worries, I am either good enough, or I am not. If I am not, I will work on those issues through practice and time, not some outside program to tell me exactly what the issue is and speeding up my progress.
If an MMO is a world that your character supposedly lives in, where do spreadsheets exist? I have yet to see an MMO with a spreadsheet drop table... Basically I believe in playing with what the game gives you and not using addons from another developer or dedicated player who is just looking for a quick fix.
Maybe it is age on my part.. I lived at a time when things were not always instant, where as todays generation is used to having all the answers given to them at the push of a button. Do not get me wrong, I love technology and what it has given us, but there are times when doing things the hard way make the experience more joyful, It gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment.
@Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game.
Bruh how old do you think I am? The majority of AoC's fanbase lived at a time when things were not always instant.
As for the spreadsheets...you should look at bodybuilding throughout the years. Humans have always been min-maxers and this was even true all the way back in the old school games like Gaia. Also, no one is asking for third party addons we're asking for intrepid to give us their own DPS meter in game so when I hit a dummy over the course of 30 seconds I have an idea of what my performance was which is no different than working out at the gym and logging it.
This is the issue right here.... This is not body building, and this is not Gaia... This is AoC, and Intrepid has said... "no meters". But yet here are the meter loving crew to try and bring what they loved from their last games to a new game, instead of just accepting the new game does not want to go that route. I get that you are desperate for a good and new MMO like the rest of us... But you cannot force mechanics into a game that are not wanted by the developing team.
There are mechanics not included in this game that I loved from past MMOs... but I am not in here screaming to get them added. I just take the game the way it is intended to be played and soldier on, or find a different game that has what I like.
EDIT: If Intrepid decides to add meters after the game is launched, I am not going to cry about it if they think they are needed. But as for now, they do not, and I side with them.
Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game.
Did I though?
If you look at the general specifics of the argument for combat trackers being useful in PvP, the following is the reply I gave to Dygz, yet it applies to you.
We are saying that, generally speaking, the side that is best prepared for PvP will win. We are saying that along with developing teamwork, a good part of that preparedness is working with a combat tracker to develop individual players within their various different builds, and to develop synergies between players.
That is a solid, sound statement.
You are arguing against that.
Your answer to this is that DPS doesnt matter because you cant DPS when you're dead.
Who is it that is missed the target by a long shot?
I agree, in a game that's supposedly doesn't cater to "care bears" and where the winning condition for many of the events is literally who does the most DPS it's kinda crazy to have people request having numbers on our tooltips.
Perspective is a funny thing. See, from my perspective damage meters are a form of carebear hand holding where you are receiving artificial feedback from a script about how your performance is. To me, it’s more hardcore to go out and figure it out through trial and error.
As Adam Savage once said, the difference between science and goofing around, is writing things down.
If you are going out to try and come up with a good build without a damage meter, you are just goofing around.
I agree, in a game that's supposedly doesn't cater to "care bears" and where the winning condition for many of the events is literally who does the most DPS it's kinda crazy to have people request having numbers on our tooltips.
Perspective is a funny thing. See, from my perspective damage meters are a form of carebear hand holding where you are receiving artificial feedback from a script about how your performance is. To me, it’s more hardcore to go out and figure it out through trial and error.
Ashes will have the highest stakes pvp wise in any mmorpg I have played , you stand to lose a lot. Do you really want to risk trail and error when comes to losing your node to a siege or having some guild swoop in and out damage your own guild for looting rights to a raid boss and lose the good drops from it? I would prefer knowing what my guild members are capable of doing then not knowing.
Perspective again. Ashes is pretty low to moderate stakes compared to say, Darkfall Online or Mortal Online. Both did just fine without meters. You learn to know who’s pulling their weight and who’s not, if that’s all you care about in your teammates.
Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game.
Did I though?
If you look at the general specifics of the argument for combat trackers being useful in PvP, the following is the reply I gave to Dygz, yet it applies to you.
We are saying that, generally speaking, the side that is best prepared for PvP will win. We are saying that along with developing teamwork, a good part of that preparedness is working with a combat tracker to develop individual players within their various different builds, and to develop synergies between players.
That is a solid, sound statement.
You are arguing against that.
Your answer to this is that DPS doesnt matter because you cant DPS when you're dead.
Who is it that is missed the target by a long shot?
How do I downvote this?
You dont.
You answer it.
Downvoting valid points made in opposition to your perspective when you dont have an actual answer is why down voting isnt a thing on many forums.
I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here.
Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for.
On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone.
Open world PvP... that is your argument...
Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens?
What level was the player you fought?
What level/grade gear did you have on?
What level/grade gear did your opponent have on?
What level/grade weapon did you have equipped?
What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped?
What Archetype/Class are you?
What Archetype/Class was your opponent?
What Augments were you using?
What Augments was your opponent using?
See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight.
When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like:
* Rotation A in gear set A
* Rotation B in gear set A
* Rotation A in gear set B
* Rotation B in gear set B
* etc
Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for.
It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool.
Sigh.... me and Noanni have had this convo. Seems that you both are cut from the same cloth so I will exit this convo before I have to listen to the same exact argument over and over again...
I say... I do not want them in game because of reasons A or B.
You say, I do not understand how they work and deny that reasons A or B even exist.
Got ya... lol, good luck in game I guess.
Before you completely leave the conversation what do you say to my comment above yours?
Most arguments against meters is based on a fear of being excluded and I just don't foresee that being as big of a problem simply due to the game naturally limiting your ability to build a "perfect" team.
I do not have a "fear" of meters, I just do not think they belong. Exclusion due to DPS is the least of my worries, I am either good enough, or I am not. If I am not, I will work on those issues through practice and time, not some outside program to tell me exactly what the issue is and speeding up my progress.
If an MMO is a world that your character supposedly lives in, where do spreadsheets exist? I have yet to see an MMO with a spreadsheet drop table... Basically I believe in playing with what the game gives you and not using addons from another developer or dedicated player who is just looking for a quick fix.
Maybe it is age on my part.. I lived at a time when things were not always instant, where as todays generation is used to having all the answers given to them at the push of a button. Do not get me wrong, I love technology and what it has given us, but there are times when doing things the hard way make the experience more joyful, It gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment.
@Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game.
Bruh how old do you think I am? The majority of AoC's fanbase lived at a time when things were not always instant.
As for the spreadsheets...you should look at bodybuilding throughout the years. Humans have always been min-maxers and this was even true all the way back in the old school games like Gaia. Also, no one is asking for third party addons we're asking for intrepid to give us their own DPS meter in game so when I hit a dummy over the course of 30 seconds I have an idea of what my performance was which is no different than working out at the gym and logging it.
This is the issue right here.... This is not body building, and this is not Gaia... This is AoC, and Intrepid has said... "no meters". But yet here are the meter loving crew to try and bring what they loved from their last games to a new game, instead of just accepting the new game does not want to go that route. I get that you are desperate for a good and new MMO like the rest of us... But you cannot force mechanics into a game that are not wanted by the developing team.
There are mechanics not included in this game that I loved from past MMOs... but I am not in here screaming to get them added. I just take the game the way it is intended to be played and soldier on, or find a different game that has what I like.
EDIT: If Intrepid decides to add meters after the game is launched, I am not going to cry about it if they think they are needed. But as for now, they do not, and I side with them.
I'm not "screaming" to get them added either. I think meters in a very specific location on appropriately leveled nodes is a very minor request to allow people who do want them to not feel like we're getting completely shafted. If the game doesn't have them it's fine but when someone says it's b/c of toxicity I'll point out how I disagree same if someone says it'll unfairly benefit PvE more than PvP.
It's not like I've not been on your side of the argument...I deeply don't want Arena ladders yet we seem to be getting them.
If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
Perspective again. Ashes is pretty low to moderate stakes compared to say, Darkfall Online or Mortal Online. Both did just fine without meters. You learn to know who’s pulling their weight and who’s not, if that’s all you care about in your teammates.
Very true! Which is why I always said if Ashes is just going to be open world raid piñatas to fight over then DPS meters won't be very useful. Which to me is what the game looks like it is going to be.
Still, many are hopeful that good PvE will exist. I have just been extremely skeptical about good PvE. No DEV is going to tell you their PvE is not going to be good.
I agree, in a game that's supposedly doesn't cater to "care bears" and where the winning condition for many of the events is literally who does the most DPS it's kinda crazy to have people request having numbers on our tooltips.
Perspective is a funny thing. See, from my perspective damage meters are a form of carebear hand holding where you are receiving artificial feedback from a script about how your performance is. To me, it’s more hardcore to go out and figure it out through trial and error.
As Adam Savage once said, the difference between science and goofing around, is writing things down.
If you are going out to try and come up with a good build without a damage meter, you are just goofing around.
I will respond to this...
Buy a pen and paper.. happy sciencing!
As I said in the post, literally right where you cut it off, the pertinent part here is the collection of o objective data. That was the point Adam Savage was making, yet that seems to have gone over your head (it is easy for things to go over ones head, if one is purposely ducking to avoid them).
To paraphrase Mr. Savage, the difference between science and doodling is having objective data to write down.
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ThexBlackxKnightMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I agree, in a game that's supposedly doesn't cater to "care bears" and where the winning condition for many of the events is literally who does the most DPS it's kinda crazy to have people request having numbers on our tooltips.
Perspective is a funny thing. See, from my perspective damage meters are a form of carebear hand holding where you are receiving artificial feedback from a script about how your performance is. To me, it’s more hardcore to go out and figure it out through trial and error.
Ashes will have the highest stakes pvp wise in any mmorpg I have played , you stand to lose a lot. Do you really want to risk trail and error when comes to losing your node to a siege or having some guild swoop in and out damage your own guild for looting rights to a raid boss and lose the good drops from it? I would prefer knowing what my guild members are capable of doing then not knowing.
Perspective again. Ashes is pretty low to moderate stakes compared to say, Darkfall Online or Mortal Online. Both did just fine without meters. You learn to know who’s pulling their weight and who’s not, if that’s all you care about in your teammates.
You stand to lose a node that has been develop by the hard work of its citizens , you talking about higher tier crafting stations , resources , raiding spots and other pve content that was unlock in the node area , you can lose your freehold spots and housing. That is a lot to lose and you stand a better chance not lose it if you know who the best players to take to defend all of that in a siege battle.
I agree, in a game that's supposedly doesn't cater to "care bears" and where the winning condition for many of the events is literally who does the most DPS it's kinda crazy to have people request having numbers on our tooltips.
Perspective is a funny thing. See, from my perspective damage meters are a form of carebear hand holding where you are receiving artificial feedback from a script about how your performance is. To me, it’s more hardcore to go out and figure it out through trial and error.
Ashes will have the highest stakes pvp wise in any mmorpg I have played , you stand to lose a lot. Do you really want to risk trail and error when comes to losing your node to a siege or having some guild swoop in and out damage your own guild for looting rights to a raid boss and lose the good drops from it? I would prefer knowing what my guild members are capable of doing then not knowing.
Perspective again. Ashes is pretty low to moderate stakes compared to say, Darkfall Online or Mortal Online. Both did just fine without meters. You learn to know who’s pulling their weight and who’s not, if that’s all you care about in your teammates.
You stand to lose a node that has been develop by the hard work of its citizens , you talking about higher tier crafting stations , resources , raiding spots and other pve content that was unlock in the node area , you can lose your freehold spots and housing. That is a lot to lose and you stand a better chance not lose it if you know who the best players to take to defend all of that in a siege battle.
Well like I said in those other games you lose all that plus your bank. You lose everything you’re wearing every time your ganked with no corruption system. I’m not saying you’re not losing stuff in ashes, I’m just saying it’s a matter of perspective, and those games with bigger losses don’t have meters and it works just fine. You learn to figure it out. For example, lots of dueling takes place both for practice and assessment. It’s actually really fun and a more communal way to figure out who is a hotshot, who’s a meh, and who’s a noob. Much more emergent and meaningful then looking at a meter.
The most hardcore guilds have dueling tryouts. The necromonger way. There’s solutions that don’t require meters, and in fact are better than meters.
EDIT: If Intrepid decides to add meters after the game is launched, I am not going to cry about it if they think they are needed. But as for now, they do not, and I side with them.
So you admit you have no real opinion and only base how you feel about things based on what a developer says? Telling. There will be some way to find your DPS in this game. Full stop. Doesn't matter if it's supported by the devs or not, there will be a way. Whether that's through websites that sim optimal DPS, or combat log scrapers, or who knows, even a program that can read the numbers on your screen and calculate them into a readable number.
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ThexBlackxKnightMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
EDIT: If Intrepid decides to add meters after the game is launched, I am not going to cry about it if they think they are needed. But as for now, they do not, and I side with them.
So you admit you have no real opinion and only base how you feel about things based on what a developer says? Telling. There will be some way to find your DPS in this game. Full stop. Doesn't matter if it's supported by the devs or not, there will be a way. Whether that's through websites that sim optimal DPS, or combat log scrapers, or who knows, even a program that can read the numbers on your screen and calculate them into a readable number.
Exactly guilds are going to min/max no matter what , and the only reason we have been given for no damage meters is because of toxicity. This game will be a cesspool of toxicity with or without damage meters , its going to happen because that is just how pvp players are.
I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here.
Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for.
On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone.
Open world PvP... that is your argument...
Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens?
What level was the player you fought?
What level/grade gear did you have on?
What level/grade gear did your opponent have on?
What level/grade weapon did you have equipped?
What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped?
What Archetype/Class are you?
What Archetype/Class was your opponent?
What Augments were you using?
What Augments was your opponent using?
See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight.
When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like:
* Rotation A in gear set A
* Rotation B in gear set A
* Rotation A in gear set B
* Rotation B in gear set B
* etc
Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for.
It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool.
Sigh.... me and Noanni have had this convo. Seems that you both are cut from the same cloth so I will exit this convo before I have to listen to the same exact argument over and over again...
I say... I do not want them in game because of reasons A or B.
You say, I do not understand how they work and deny that reasons A or B even exist.
Got ya... lol, good luck in game I guess.
Before you completely leave the conversation what do you say to my comment above yours?
Most arguments against meters is based on a fear of being excluded and I just don't foresee that being as big of a problem simply due to the game naturally limiting your ability to build a "perfect" team.
I do not have a "fear" of meters, I just do not think they belong. Exclusion due to DPS is the least of my worries, I am either good enough, or I am not. If I am not, I will work on those issues through practice and time, not some outside program to tell me exactly what the issue is and speeding up my progress.
If an MMO is a world that your character supposedly lives in, where do spreadsheets exist? I have yet to see an MMO with a spreadsheet drop table... Basically I believe in playing with what the game gives you and not using addons from another developer or dedicated player who is just looking for a quick fix.
Maybe it is age on my part.. I lived at a time when things were not always instant, where as todays generation is used to having all the answers given to them at the push of a button. Do not get me wrong, I love technology and what it has given us, but there are times when doing things the hard way make the experience more joyful, It gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment.
@Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game.
Bruh how old do you think I am? The majority of AoC's fanbase lived at a time when things were not always instant.
As for the spreadsheets...you should look at bodybuilding throughout the years. Humans have always been min-maxers and this was even true all the way back in the old school games like Gaia. Also, no one is asking for third party addons we're asking for intrepid to give us their own DPS meter in game so when I hit a dummy over the course of 30 seconds I have an idea of what my performance was which is no different than working out at the gym and logging it.
This is the issue right here.... This is not body building, and this is not Gaia... This is AoC, and Intrepid has said... "no meters". But yet here are the meter loving crew to try and bring what they loved from their last games to a new game, instead of just accepting the new game does not want to go that route. I get that you are desperate for a good and new MMO like the rest of us... But you cannot force mechanics into a game that are not wanted by the developing team.
There are mechanics not included in this game that I loved from past MMOs... but I am not in here screaming to get them added. I just take the game the way it is intended to be played and soldier on, or find a different game that has what I like.
EDIT: If Intrepid decides to add meters after the game is launched, I am not going to cry about it if they think they are needed. But as for now, they do not, and I side with them.
I'm not "screaming" to get them added either. I think meters in a very specific location on appropriately leveled nodes is a very minor request to allow people who do want them to not feel like we're getting completely shafted. If the game doesn't have them it's fine but when someone says it's b/c of toxicity I'll point out how I disagree same if someone says it'll unfairly benefit PvE more than PvP.
It's not like I've not been on your side of the argument...I deeply don't want Arena ladders yet we seem to be getting them.
You keep saying they help out in PvP... they do not. They may help you gain confidence in PvP or against practice targets, but when the real PvP starts, they are worthless.... Unless you plan on standing outside of the main PvP fights and trying to just 1 v 1 every straggler that runs by.
... I can run around on a level 10 character in mass PvP, and so long as I do not get AoE'd and die ... I can due 1 dmg to targets and they will die just as fast due to the other 5+ level cap players that are burning them down. How do I know this? I did it Lineage 2... I ran around on a level 10 character at a castle siege because my main had Karma (Corruption) and I did not want to bring him to a siege just to lose gear. I died quite a few times, but I was there spamming my attack button and doing a small amount of damage to anything getting close.... and we captured the castle. It is not the individual DPS that wins fights, it is the collective. Obviously if I was on my main, those targets would have died .01% faster, but that is negligible. The only thing that would hurt your chances, is if a majority of your Army is too low level and doing very low damage. So you can get away with lower DPS in these instances, so long as a vast majority is doing damage close to or equal to the opponents. Where as in Raids, everyone has to meet general requirements to beat the encounter.
Getting shafted is when things are unfair... there is nothing unfair about every player, playing the game on equal ground. The only thing you see as unfair, is that you do not get to play the game, the way you want. And you can not use the argument that, if they put DPS meters in the game everyone will be on equal ground either. Because not everyone wants to use them, and they sure as hell dont want to be forced to use them to compete.
EDIT: If Intrepid decides to add meters after the game is launched, I am not going to cry about it if they think they are needed. But as for now, they do not, and I side with them.
So you admit you have no real opinion and only base how you feel about things based on what a developer says? Telling. There will be some way to find your DPS in this game. Full stop. Doesn't matter if it's supported by the devs or not, there will be a way. Whether that's through websites that sim optimal DPS, or combat log scrapers, or who knows, even a program that can read the numbers on your screen and calculate them into a readable number.
LOL.... I have given my opinion, so obviously I have one, it just does not jive with yours so you dismiss it... which is telling in of itself.
As for DPS meters being around anyway... everyone knows this, I have mentioned it quite a few times myself. But if it is against the EULA and people get caught, which again, I know not everyone will.. but if they do, they could be banned. This will not stop it, but it will slow their use.
I myself will have a pen and pad next to me while I play to write down things I notice damage wise so I can work on my own builds... I am just against a program doing it all for you.
EDIT: If Intrepid decides to add meters after the game is launched, I am not going to cry about it if they think they are needed. But as for now, they do not, and I side with them.
So you admit you have no real opinion and only base how you feel about things based on what a developer says? Telling. There will be some way to find your DPS in this game. Full stop. Doesn't matter if it's supported by the devs or not, there will be a way. Whether that's through websites that sim optimal DPS, or combat log scrapers, or who knows, even a program that can read the numbers on your screen and calculate them into a readable number.
Exactly guilds are going to min/max no matter what , and the only reason we have been given for no damage meters is because of toxicity. This game will be a cesspool of toxicity with or without damage meters , its going to happen because that is just how pvp players are.
If Steven gave 10 reasons on why meters will not be in the game, you would still be in here arguing every point you did not agree with. Why does he have to explain himself to every meter user on why he made his decision? It his his game, built by a majority of his money... You plopped down $500 bucks on alpha one, this gives you the right to test the game, not dictate the features you want in it.
I agree, in a game that's supposedly doesn't cater to "care bears" and where the winning condition for many of the events is literally who does the most DPS it's kinda crazy to have people request having numbers on our tooltips.
Perspective is a funny thing. See, from my perspective damage meters are a form of carebear hand holding where you are receiving artificial feedback from a script about how your performance is. To me, it’s more hardcore to go out and figure it out through trial and error.
Ashes will have the highest stakes pvp wise in any mmorpg I have played , you stand to lose a lot. Do you really want to risk trail and error when comes to losing your node to a siege or having some guild swoop in and out damage your own guild for looting rights to a raid boss and lose the good drops from it? I would prefer knowing what my guild members are capable of doing then not knowing.
Perspective again. Ashes is pretty low to moderate stakes compared to say, Darkfall Online or Mortal Online. Both did just fine without meters. You learn to know who’s pulling their weight and who’s not, if that’s all you care about in your teammates.
You stand to lose a node that has been develop by the hard work of its citizens , you talking about higher tier crafting stations , resources , raiding spots and other pve content that was unlock in the node area , you can lose your freehold spots and housing. That is a lot to lose and you stand a better chance not lose it if you know who the best players to take to defend all of that in a siege battle.
You do not have a decision on who to take to a Node Siege... Every citizen has a right to be there, no matter their Level, Armor, Weapons, DPS min/max ... whatever you want to name... You are already assuming the use the DPS meters will determine who gets to fight for a node or not, which is the toxic mindset Steven is trying to avoid... even though your example is not how the game is actually played.
Perspective again. Ashes is pretty low to moderate stakes compared to say, Darkfall Online or Mortal Online. Both did just fine without meters. You learn to know who’s pulling their weight and who’s not, if that’s all you care about in your teammates.
Very true! Which is why I always said if Ashes is just going to be open world raid piñatas to fight over then DPS meters won't be very useful. Which to me is what the game looks like it is going to be.
Still, many are hopeful that good PvE will exist. I have just been extremely skeptical about good PvE. No DEV is going to tell you their PvE is not going to be good.
This is a very popular opinion in the circles I run in. Open world bosses where PvP will be frequent, will be High HP, low Skill, loot bags in my honest opinion. You cannot have raid bosses be too complex if PvP is happening around them if you expect the people who enjoy that type of gameplay to keep attempting said boss.
The instanced bosses may be more complex, but then the PvE community is going to be pissed when there is a raid sized group waiting to PvP them when they leave the instance.
So what is the arguments against some form of combat analysis tool? I’d like to see some sort of list as I’m convinced there must be a compromise somewhere.
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ThexBlackxKnightMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You do not have a decision on who to take to a Node Siege... Every citizen has a right to be there, no matter their Level, Armor, Weapons, DPS min/max ... whatever you want to name... You are already assuming the use the DPS meters will determine who gets to fight for a node or not, which is the toxic mindset Steven is trying to avoid... even though your example is not how the game is actually played.
It would be in citizens of node best interest to take their star players and put them on a roaster to help defend in a siege. There is a player cap of some kind and it will be pretty dumb to not try to get your highest level and best geared players into that cap limit. Also toxicity and gatekeeping will happen with or without damage meters in the game.
I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here.
Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for.
On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone.
Open world PvP... that is your argument...
Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens?
What level was the player you fought?
What level/grade gear did you have on?
What level/grade gear did your opponent have on?
What level/grade weapon did you have equipped?
What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped?
What Archetype/Class are you?
What Archetype/Class was your opponent?
What Augments were you using?
What Augments was your opponent using?
See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight.
When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like:
* Rotation A in gear set A
* Rotation B in gear set A
* Rotation A in gear set B
* Rotation B in gear set B
* etc
Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for.
It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool.
Sigh.... me and Noanni have had this convo. Seems that you both are cut from the same cloth so I will exit this convo before I have to listen to the same exact argument over and over again...
I say... I do not want them in game because of reasons A or B.
You say, I do not understand how they work and deny that reasons A or B even exist.
Got ya... lol, good luck in game I guess.
Before you completely leave the conversation what do you say to my comment above yours?
Most arguments against meters is based on a fear of being excluded and I just don't foresee that being as big of a problem simply due to the game naturally limiting your ability to build a "perfect" team.
I do not have a "fear" of meters, I just do not think they belong. Exclusion due to DPS is the least of my worries, I am either good enough, or I am not. If I am not, I will work on those issues through practice and time, not some outside program to tell me exactly what the issue is and speeding up my progress.
If an MMO is a world that your character supposedly lives in, where do spreadsheets exist? I have yet to see an MMO with a spreadsheet drop table... Basically I believe in playing with what the game gives you and not using addons from another developer or dedicated player who is just looking for a quick fix.
Maybe it is age on my part.. I lived at a time when things were not always instant, where as todays generation is used to having all the answers given to them at the push of a button. Do not get me wrong, I love technology and what it has given us, but there are times when doing things the hard way make the experience more joyful, It gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment.
@Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game.
Bruh how old do you think I am? The majority of AoC's fanbase lived at a time when things were not always instant.
As for the spreadsheets...you should look at bodybuilding throughout the years. Humans have always been min-maxers and this was even true all the way back in the old school games like Gaia. Also, no one is asking for third party addons we're asking for intrepid to give us their own DPS meter in game so when I hit a dummy over the course of 30 seconds I have an idea of what my performance was which is no different than working out at the gym and logging it.
This is the issue right here.... This is not body building, and this is not Gaia... This is AoC, and Intrepid has said... "no meters". But yet here are the meter loving crew to try and bring what they loved from their last games to a new game, instead of just accepting the new game does not want to go that route. I get that you are desperate for a good and new MMO like the rest of us... But you cannot force mechanics into a game that are not wanted by the developing team.
There are mechanics not included in this game that I loved from past MMOs... but I am not in here screaming to get them added. I just take the game the way it is intended to be played and soldier on, or find a different game that has what I like.
EDIT: If Intrepid decides to add meters after the game is launched, I am not going to cry about it if they think they are needed. But as for now, they do not, and I side with them.
I'm not "screaming" to get them added either. I think meters in a very specific location on appropriately leveled nodes is a very minor request to allow people who do want them to not feel like we're getting completely shafted. If the game doesn't have them it's fine but when someone says it's b/c of toxicity I'll point out how I disagree same if someone says it'll unfairly benefit PvE more than PvP.
It's not like I've not been on your side of the argument...I deeply don't want Arena ladders yet we seem to be getting them.
You keep saying they help out in PvP... they do not. They may help you gain confidence in PvP or against practice targets, but when the real PvP starts, they are worthless.... Unless you plan on standing outside of the main PvP fights and trying to just 1 v 1 every straggler that runs by.
... I can run around on a level 10 character in mass PvP, and so long as I do not get AoE'd and die ... I can due 1 dmg to targets and they will die just as fast due to the other 5+ level cap players that are burning them down. How do I know this? I did it Lineage 2... I ran around on a level 10 character at a castle siege because my main had Karma (Corruption) and I did not want to bring him to a siege just to lose gear. I died quite a few times, but I was there spamming my attack button and doing a small amount of damage to anything getting close.... and we captured the castle. It is not the individual DPS that wins fights, it is the collective. Obviously if I was on my main, those targets would have died .01% faster, but that is negligible. The only thing that would hurt your chances, is if a majority of your Army is too low level and doing very low damage. So you can get away with lower DPS in these instances, so long as a vast majority is doing damage close to or equal to the opponents. Where as in Raids, everyone has to meet general requirements to beat the encounter.
Getting shafted is when things are unfair... there is nothing unfair about every player, playing the game on equal ground. The only thing you see as unfair, is that you do not get to play the game, the way you want. And you can not use the argument that, if they put DPS meters in the game everyone will be on equal ground either. Because not everyone wants to use them, and they sure as hell dont want to be forced to use them to compete.
You said meters only help PvE and I told you that by helping PvE it inherently helps PvP b/c it's the PvE guys that will be making the gear for the PvP ones.
On top of that you just said how you'll be at your computer w/ a pen and paper to build your character so we're not even arguing about the usefulness of this knowledge! Just whether or not you want the tool in the game.
The majority of the people in this thread have repeatedly said that all they want is the game to give us the data so that we don't have to guess and check as much b/c knowing for sure is part of the fun for min/maxers.
Simply parking an NPC by a training area where they "write down" your DPS should in no way prevent you from doing things how you want to while not utterly shafting those that enjoy something a bit more objective. If it doesn't make a difference then there's no downside to you and if guilds do start trying to use it to gatekeep content then they'll likely see themselves be passed by other guilds seeing as how small the communities will likely be in game.
Like, by your own argument you literally lose nothing by there being a DPS meter in a training area.
If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
So what is the arguments against some form of combat analysis tool? I’d like to see some sort of list as I’m convinced there must be a compromise somewhere.
Largely it comes down to the fear of gatekeeping as happens in WoW
For others it's an immersion thing where they prefer to go out into the world and wack on mobs w/ one build, return to respec/gear and then go back to wack on mobs again to see if it's a bit better.
What's fun about this particular thread is that it was originally started by @Bardtic to ask for numbers on the tooltips and of course even that was met w/ opposition b/c some players really seem to hate anything that could remotely be construed as min/maxing.
If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
You keep saying they help out in PvP... they do not. They may help you gain confidence in PvP or against practice targets, but when the real PvP starts, they are worthless.... Unless you plan on standing outside of the main PvP fights and trying to just 1 v 1 every straggler that runs by.
... I can run around on a level 10 character in mass PvP, and so long as I do not get AoE'd and die ... I can due 1 dmg to targets and they will die just as fast due to the other 5+ level cap players that are burning them down. How do I know this? I did it Lineage 2... I ran around on a level 10 character at a castle siege because my main had Karma (Corruption) and I did not want to bring him to a siege just to lose gear. I died quite a few times, but I was there spamming my attack button and doing a small amount of damage to anything getting close.... and we captured the castle. It is not the individual DPS that wins fights, it is the collective. Obviously if I was on my main, those targets would have died .01% faster, but that is negligible. The only thing that would hurt your chances, is if a majority of your Army is too low level and doing very low damage. So you can get away with lower DPS in these instances, so long as a vast majority is doing damage close to or equal to the opponents. Where as in Raids, everyone has to meet general requirements to beat the encounter.
Getting shafted is when things are unfair... there is nothing unfair about every player, playing the game on equal ground. The only thing you see as unfair, is that you do not get to play the game, the way you want. And you can not use the argument that, if they put DPS meters in the game everyone will be on equal ground either. Because not everyone wants to use them, and they sure as hell dont want to be forced to use them to compete.
You're making up imaginary scenarios about things that "could happen" in order to support your narrative. Using large, aggregated data such as parses or DPS meters is in no way mutually exclusive to using strategy in pvp. It's simply asinine to suggest otherwise. Who is better, the player that can strategize in real time during a battle? Or the player who can do that exact same thing but also has a better optimized build/rotation? You're stuck in a bygone era, people don't play games that way anymore. I honestly respect you for figuring out builds and data on your own, but that is not how people play games anymore. To try and hold modern day players to a standard set by games 20 years ago just won't work.
Also, I think it's funny that you end your post with "Because not everyone wants to use them, and they sure as hell dont want to be forced to use them to compete.". Which is it? Are DPS meters "worthless" in pvp? Or will people be "forced to use them to compete"? Both of those cannot be true at the same time.
I honestly respect you for figuring out builds and data on your own
I don't.
Simply because I have no doubt that the builds were unoptimized in some way or another.
I played Archeage for a few years, and that game had a really low combat tracker use. Every version of the game had basically the same meta (Darkrunners, Daggerspells etc).
I naturally had a combat tracker for the game, and looked over the common builds - they were all average at best in comparison to the builds I was able to make. Thing is, they were the builds people demanded others use - and as far as I know they still are.
Someone that says "this is a good build" and is unable to provide objective data to back that claim up is nothing more than a charlatan, not someone to be respected.
I honestly respect you for figuring out builds and data on your own
I don't.
Simply because I have no doubt that the builds were unoptimized in some way or another.
Respectable in a "self starter" kind of way. What's funny is that he's so against using meters to track your own progress, when he's doing the same thing on pen/pad. He's just scared and threatened by the technology that does it for you.
Regardless, after reading through the section on UI in the Ashes wiki, it looks as though we will be provided combat logs. Based on that, tools to scan/parse/sim aggregate data shouldn't be hard to implement. Final Fantasy 14 also "bans" DPS meters, but only really in the context of using them to trash on other players during encounters. Sure, if you're harassing other players then absolutely take action, but "harassment" is already it's own bannable category in the ToS. I find that trying to chase "gatekeeping" and "toxicity" is a never ending goal that will never be attainable, and always negatively impacts a game more than it improves it. "Gatekeeping" isn't even really a bad thing, it's just used as an excuse for trash players to continue to be trash and brush off any suggestion of self improvement as "toxicity". It's destroying MMOs in my opinion. Back in the day if you were told you were trash at a game, you'd work hard, do the research, and improve yourself. These days you can just whine to a GM about "gatekeeping" and bully other people into getting to keep a spot in a raid (since other players will be too worried to remove you out of fear of being banned), even if you're actively bringing the group down. I shouldn't be forced to take along players that don't bother trying to learn what they're doing out of fear of being banned for some nebulous concept like "toxicity".
Largely it comes down to the fear of gatekeeping as happens in WoW
For others it's an immersion thing where they prefer to go out into the world and wack on mobs w/ one build, return to respec/gear and then go back to wack on mobs again to see if it's a bit better.
Thanks!
I think the gatekeeping argument is a little unfair to put on dps meters. Gatekeeping was used by achievements, raiderio (previous success) and item level. Nobody I ever met in WoW /w people asking for their dps.
I’ll add that gatekeeping will always be a thing when the number of dps players vastly outnumbers the tanks/healers.
The immersion I totally understand. I personally don’t think having a dps meter on your screen in an open world PvP setting is going to be much use anyway.
As a tank I do actually want some tool to review combat as no tool tip is going to explain what’s killing me. This is why I’m trying to find a compromise.
Largely it comes down to the fear of gatekeeping as happens in WoW
For others it's an immersion thing where they prefer to go out into the world and wack on mobs w/ one build, return to respec/gear and then go back to wack on mobs again to see if it's a bit better.
Thanks!
I think the gatekeeping argument is a little unfair to put on dps meters. Gatekeeping was used by achievements, raiderio (previous success) and item level. Nobody I ever met in WoW /w people asking for their dps.
I’ll add that gatekeeping will always be a thing when the number of dps players vastly outnumbers the tanks/healers.
The immersion I totally understand. I personally don’t think having a dps meter on your screen in an open world PvP setting is going to be much use anyway.
As a tank I do actually want some tool to review combat as no tool tip is going to explain what’s killing me. This is why I’m trying to find a compromise.
For the immersion that's why I'm pushing for a DPS meter in a specific training zone opened at certain Node levels so you can wave it off as an NPC tracking stats for you.
For the gatekeeping part...in high enough content people will boot you if you're under a certain DPS b/c some WoW bosses are flat out DPS checks and it just can't be helped at a mathematical level. I doubt that'll be the case in AoC...however as you can see by the comment above yours....people will find other ways of gatekeeping regardless
If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
Comments
Combat trackers (or DPS meters, or damage meters) dont tell you much, all they do is answer a single question - what just happened?
Using a combat tracker is still trial and error, the only difference is a combat tracker gives you objective data on those trials.
As Adam Savage once said, the difference between science and goofing around, is writing things down.
If you are going out to try and come up with a good build without a damage meter, you are just goofing around. Add in the objective data from a combat tracker, and you are suddenly doing something that has at least a chance to be accurate.
That objective data allows you to perform the task you are performing (creating a good build) properly. Rather than being a case of carebear or not, it is a case of wanting to do the task properly vs not caring if it is done properly.
When I am creating a build, I want it to be objectively "correct" for its purpose.
The vast majority of arguments against being able to min-max isn't about being more "hardcore" it's about trying to limit toxicity b/c people have been so abused by WoW and how tied to the meta you end up being.
If you want a more hardcore experience by going into the wilds w/ a stopwatch then more power to you but there should be a balance between "hardcore" and needlessly exhausting and equipping a weapon to run out and test it while risking XP debt and everything else that's risked then running back to try a different weapon is very much on the needlessly exhausting side.
Bruh how old do you think I am? The majority of AoC's fanbase lived at a time when things were not always instant.
As for the spreadsheets...you should look at bodybuilding throughout the years. Humans have always been min-maxers and this was even true all the way back in the old school games like Gaia. Also, no one is asking for third party addons we're asking for intrepid to give us their own DPS meter in game so when I hit a dummy over the course of 30 seconds I have an idea of what my performance was which is no different than working out at the gym and logging it.
If you look at the general specifics of the argument for combat trackers being useful in PvP, the following is the reply I gave to Dygz, yet it applies to you.
Your answer to this is that DPS doesnt matter because you cant DPS when you're dead.
Who is it that is missed the target by a long shot?
This is the issue right here.... This is not body building, and this is not Gaia... This is AoC, and Intrepid has said... "no meters". But yet here are the meter loving crew to try and bring what they loved from their last games to a new game, instead of just accepting the new game does not want to go that route. I get that you are desperate for a good and new MMO like the rest of us... But you cannot force mechanics into a game that are not wanted by the developing team.
There are mechanics not included in this game that I loved from past MMOs... but I am not in here screaming to get them added. I just take the game the way it is intended to be played and soldier on, or find a different game that has what I like.
EDIT: If Intrepid decides to add meters after the game is launched, I am not going to cry about it if they think they are needed. But as for now, they do not, and I side with them.
How do I downvote this?
I will respond to this...
Buy a pen and paper.. happy sciencing!
Perspective again. Ashes is pretty low to moderate stakes compared to say, Darkfall Online or Mortal Online. Both did just fine without meters. You learn to know who’s pulling their weight and who’s not, if that’s all you care about in your teammates.
You dont.
You answer it.
Downvoting valid points made in opposition to your perspective when you dont have an actual answer is why down voting isnt a thing on many forums.
I'm not "screaming" to get them added either. I think meters in a very specific location on appropriately leveled nodes is a very minor request to allow people who do want them to not feel like we're getting completely shafted. If the game doesn't have them it's fine but when someone says it's b/c of toxicity I'll point out how I disagree same if someone says it'll unfairly benefit PvE more than PvP.
It's not like I've not been on your side of the argument...I deeply don't want Arena ladders yet we seem to be getting them.
Very true! Which is why I always said if Ashes is just going to be open world raid piñatas to fight over then DPS meters won't be very useful. Which to me is what the game looks like it is going to be.
Still, many are hopeful that good PvE will exist. I have just been extremely skeptical about good PvE. No DEV is going to tell you their PvE is not going to be good.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
As I said in the post, literally right where you cut it off, the pertinent part here is the collection of o objective data. That was the point Adam Savage was making, yet that seems to have gone over your head (it is easy for things to go over ones head, if one is purposely ducking to avoid them).
To paraphrase Mr. Savage, the difference between science and doodling is having objective data to write down.
You stand to lose a node that has been develop by the hard work of its citizens , you talking about higher tier crafting stations , resources , raiding spots and other pve content that was unlock in the node area , you can lose your freehold spots and housing. That is a lot to lose and you stand a better chance not lose it if you know who the best players to take to defend all of that in a siege battle.
Well like I said in those other games you lose all that plus your bank. You lose everything you’re wearing every time your ganked with no corruption system. I’m not saying you’re not losing stuff in ashes, I’m just saying it’s a matter of perspective, and those games with bigger losses don’t have meters and it works just fine. You learn to figure it out. For example, lots of dueling takes place both for practice and assessment. It’s actually really fun and a more communal way to figure out who is a hotshot, who’s a meh, and who’s a noob. Much more emergent and meaningful then looking at a meter.
The most hardcore guilds have dueling tryouts. The necromonger way. There’s solutions that don’t require meters, and in fact are better than meters.
Exactly guilds are going to min/max no matter what , and the only reason we have been given for no damage meters is because of toxicity. This game will be a cesspool of toxicity with or without damage meters , its going to happen because that is just how pvp players are.
You keep saying they help out in PvP... they do not. They may help you gain confidence in PvP or against practice targets, but when the real PvP starts, they are worthless.... Unless you plan on standing outside of the main PvP fights and trying to just 1 v 1 every straggler that runs by.
... I can run around on a level 10 character in mass PvP, and so long as I do not get AoE'd and die ... I can due 1 dmg to targets and they will die just as fast due to the other 5+ level cap players that are burning them down. How do I know this? I did it Lineage 2... I ran around on a level 10 character at a castle siege because my main had Karma (Corruption) and I did not want to bring him to a siege just to lose gear. I died quite a few times, but I was there spamming my attack button and doing a small amount of damage to anything getting close.... and we captured the castle. It is not the individual DPS that wins fights, it is the collective. Obviously if I was on my main, those targets would have died .01% faster, but that is negligible. The only thing that would hurt your chances, is if a majority of your Army is too low level and doing very low damage. So you can get away with lower DPS in these instances, so long as a vast majority is doing damage close to or equal to the opponents. Where as in Raids, everyone has to meet general requirements to beat the encounter.
Getting shafted is when things are unfair... there is nothing unfair about every player, playing the game on equal ground. The only thing you see as unfair, is that you do not get to play the game, the way you want. And you can not use the argument that, if they put DPS meters in the game everyone will be on equal ground either. Because not everyone wants to use them, and they sure as hell dont want to be forced to use them to compete.
LOL.... I have given my opinion, so obviously I have one, it just does not jive with yours so you dismiss it... which is telling in of itself.
As for DPS meters being around anyway... everyone knows this, I have mentioned it quite a few times myself. But if it is against the EULA and people get caught, which again, I know not everyone will.. but if they do, they could be banned. This will not stop it, but it will slow their use.
I myself will have a pen and pad next to me while I play to write down things I notice damage wise so I can work on my own builds... I am just against a program doing it all for you.
If Steven gave 10 reasons on why meters will not be in the game, you would still be in here arguing every point you did not agree with. Why does he have to explain himself to every meter user on why he made his decision? It his his game, built by a majority of his money... You plopped down $500 bucks on alpha one, this gives you the right to test the game, not dictate the features you want in it.
You do not have a decision on who to take to a Node Siege... Every citizen has a right to be there, no matter their Level, Armor, Weapons, DPS min/max ... whatever you want to name... You are already assuming the use the DPS meters will determine who gets to fight for a node or not, which is the toxic mindset Steven is trying to avoid... even though your example is not how the game is actually played.
This is a very popular opinion in the circles I run in. Open world bosses where PvP will be frequent, will be High HP, low Skill, loot bags in my honest opinion. You cannot have raid bosses be too complex if PvP is happening around them if you expect the people who enjoy that type of gameplay to keep attempting said boss.
The instanced bosses may be more complex, but then the PvE community is going to be pissed when there is a raid sized group waiting to PvP them when they leave the instance.
It would be in citizens of node best interest to take their star players and put them on a roaster to help defend in a siege. There is a player cap of some kind and it will be pretty dumb to not try to get your highest level and best geared players into that cap limit. Also toxicity and gatekeeping will happen with or without damage meters in the game.
You said meters only help PvE and I told you that by helping PvE it inherently helps PvP b/c it's the PvE guys that will be making the gear for the PvP ones.
On top of that you just said how you'll be at your computer w/ a pen and paper to build your character so we're not even arguing about the usefulness of this knowledge! Just whether or not you want the tool in the game.
The majority of the people in this thread have repeatedly said that all they want is the game to give us the data so that we don't have to guess and check as much b/c knowing for sure is part of the fun for min/maxers.
Simply parking an NPC by a training area where they "write down" your DPS should in no way prevent you from doing things how you want to while not utterly shafting those that enjoy something a bit more objective. If it doesn't make a difference then there's no downside to you and if guilds do start trying to use it to gatekeep content then they'll likely see themselves be passed by other guilds seeing as how small the communities will likely be in game.
Like, by your own argument you literally lose nothing by there being a DPS meter in a training area.
Largely it comes down to the fear of gatekeeping as happens in WoW
For others it's an immersion thing where they prefer to go out into the world and wack on mobs w/ one build, return to respec/gear and then go back to wack on mobs again to see if it's a bit better.
What's fun about this particular thread is that it was originally started by @Bardtic to ask for numbers on the tooltips and of course even that was met w/ opposition b/c some players really seem to hate anything that could remotely be construed as min/maxing.
You're making up imaginary scenarios about things that "could happen" in order to support your narrative. Using large, aggregated data such as parses or DPS meters is in no way mutually exclusive to using strategy in pvp. It's simply asinine to suggest otherwise. Who is better, the player that can strategize in real time during a battle? Or the player who can do that exact same thing but also has a better optimized build/rotation? You're stuck in a bygone era, people don't play games that way anymore. I honestly respect you for figuring out builds and data on your own, but that is not how people play games anymore. To try and hold modern day players to a standard set by games 20 years ago just won't work.
Also, I think it's funny that you end your post with "Because not everyone wants to use them, and they sure as hell dont want to be forced to use them to compete.". Which is it? Are DPS meters "worthless" in pvp? Or will people be "forced to use them to compete"? Both of those cannot be true at the same time.
Hilariously ironic
Simply because I have no doubt that the builds were unoptimized in some way or another.
I played Archeage for a few years, and that game had a really low combat tracker use. Every version of the game had basically the same meta (Darkrunners, Daggerspells etc).
I naturally had a combat tracker for the game, and looked over the common builds - they were all average at best in comparison to the builds I was able to make. Thing is, they were the builds people demanded others use - and as far as I know they still are.
Someone that says "this is a good build" and is unable to provide objective data to back that claim up is nothing more than a charlatan, not someone to be respected.
Regardless, after reading through the section on UI in the Ashes wiki, it looks as though we will be provided combat logs. Based on that, tools to scan/parse/sim aggregate data shouldn't be hard to implement. Final Fantasy 14 also "bans" DPS meters, but only really in the context of using them to trash on other players during encounters. Sure, if you're harassing other players then absolutely take action, but "harassment" is already it's own bannable category in the ToS. I find that trying to chase "gatekeeping" and "toxicity" is a never ending goal that will never be attainable, and always negatively impacts a game more than it improves it. "Gatekeeping" isn't even really a bad thing, it's just used as an excuse for trash players to continue to be trash and brush off any suggestion of self improvement as "toxicity". It's destroying MMOs in my opinion. Back in the day if you were told you were trash at a game, you'd work hard, do the research, and improve yourself. These days you can just whine to a GM about "gatekeeping" and bully other people into getting to keep a spot in a raid (since other players will be too worried to remove you out of fear of being banned), even if you're actively bringing the group down. I shouldn't be forced to take along players that don't bother trying to learn what they're doing out of fear of being banned for some nebulous concept like "toxicity".
Thanks!
I think the gatekeeping argument is a little unfair to put on dps meters. Gatekeeping was used by achievements, raiderio (previous success) and item level. Nobody I ever met in WoW /w people asking for their dps.
I’ll add that gatekeeping will always be a thing when the number of dps players vastly outnumbers the tanks/healers.
The immersion I totally understand. I personally don’t think having a dps meter on your screen in an open world PvP setting is going to be much use anyway.
As a tank I do actually want some tool to review combat as no tool tip is going to explain what’s killing me. This is why I’m trying to find a compromise.
For the immersion that's why I'm pushing for a DPS meter in a specific training zone opened at certain Node levels so you can wave it off as an NPC tracking stats for you.
For the gatekeeping part...in high enough content people will boot you if you're under a certain DPS b/c some WoW bosses are flat out DPS checks and it just can't be helped at a mathematical level. I doubt that'll be the case in AoC...however as you can see by the comment above yours....people will find other ways of gatekeeping regardless