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Tanking

SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
in General Discussion
I love the overall archetype class design that they're going for, and I know they have said that a tank archetype will be able to tank no matter what secondary class he chooses.
But does anyone know if any other classes if they choose a tank secondary will be able to tank?
For example a rogue/tank being able to do a Dodge evasion type build for tanking. Or a summoner focusing on tanky summons?

Or will the tank primary be the only tanking option?
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Comments

  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I don't believe x/tank will be able to tank. Only tank/x will be able to tank.
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  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    We really don't have much info on subclass other than the makes some changes to the base class, so best to wait and see
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  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Not enough information on this yet. But there is a lot of speculation about how the augments will work. Tank/tank will be the tankiest tank that ever tanked. But a lot of people think we will see other */tank classes be viable. Though to say at this point till we see the augment system and how far it can be used to"blur" the lines.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    IS said all Tank/X can tank and Tank/Tank can also Tank (They never said Tank/Tank was the best tank). This was when the question of whether X/Tank can tank was brought up on a Livestream. However, the game is still Alpha and the concepts can change. There is also a combat update in the works so we will see what changes occur in the long run.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    bloodprophet wrote: »
    Not enough information on this yet. But there is a lot of speculation about how the augments will work. Tank/tank will be the tankiest tank that ever tanked. But a lot of people think we will see other */tank classes be viable. Though to say at this point till we see the augment system and how far it can be used to"blur" the lines.
    Uh. No. It's Tank/x that will make viable tanks.
    x/Tank probably will not be able to main tank sufficiently because they won't have Tank abilities; only Tank augments.

  • KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    As a main tank and a guild leader....I really hope that I am not the only one who will end up being able to tank. Intrepid has an opportunity to do something unique with their current system. Just like I will be able to "evade" tank as a tank/rogue, I would hope rogue/tank will be able to do the same thing. As a tank/mage, I hope to be able to tank with magic mitigation. It would be cool if mages could do the same as a mage/tank.

    I throw the guild leader aspect in because I would LOVE to be able to theory craft with more than just "I TANK, YOU HEAL TANK, YOU PLAY GUITAR, ZUG ZUG". I want to feel rewarded for exploring several options with raid design.

    Obviously this is pure speculation but not something outside the realm of possibility. This would be very COOL and would give more purpose to certain classes. I also don't see this as overboard. Tank seems to be shaping up as a very viable pvper in both aoe damage and CC capabilities so why not share the love with tanking. Intrepid...the power....is YOURS. (Captain Planet for those of you young kids who don't care about the Earth haha).
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    A Rogue/Tank will not be able to do the same thing as a Tank/Rogue.
    A Tank/Rogue will be using Tank abilities to tank with some Rogue augments to help evade.
    A Rogue/Tank will be using Rogue abilities to evade with some Tank augments to help tank.

    The Nightshield would be main tank.
    The Shadow Guardian would be off-tank.
    Spellshield would be main tank.
    Spellstone would be off-tank.

    It's the Primary Archetype which dictates the combat role; not the Secondary Archetype.
  • ShoelidShoelid Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    My guess is that only tank/x classis will be able to really tank, and x/tank classes might have some additional threat generation or damage mitigation available through augments. I'd imagine an x/tank class to be similar to Enhancement Shaman in Classic WoW.
  • PercimesPercimes Member
    There's also the "level" of what need to be tanked in the first place. All tank/x will be able to tank raid content, but hopefully x/tank will be able to tank non-raid content, you know, normal group encounters. Nothing official on that as far as I know though.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • JamationJamation Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think once people start testing the classes and we get to see more of how well augments play out, I think there could be the possibility for some weird class interaction. Tank/X will probably have the easiest time tanking, but I think there could be some really interesting builds that will happen by some dedicated players. If anything I'd bet that X/Tank, or even just a skilled player on another class, could tank things that weren't bosses.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    Percimes wrote: »
    There's also the "level" of what need to be tanked in the first place. All tank/x will be able to tank raid content, but hopefully x/tank will be able to tank non-raid content, you know, normal group encounters. Nothing official on that as far as I know though.
    It's not just a raid thing.
    x\Tank does not have Tank abilities.
    It's not necessarily totally impossible but you shouldn't expect an x\Tank to main tank.
    You could probably survive some group content without a Tank\x. Especially if you have several x\Tanks in the group.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    It is going to be a fun process discovering it all, except for the part about people whining that one combo or another is overpowered.
  • PercimesPercimes Member
    If the tank subclass doesn't bring any degree of tanking to those who pick it I'm afraid we can simply ignore all the subclasses as they don't change the main one enough to be a significant choice in your character development. Just some extra flavour, subtle seasoning to the main dish. Instead of choosing between fries and onion rings to go with your burger you'll be choosing if you want ketchup or not in it.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    Tank subclass is an enigma because there will be 4 augment schools and we know 0 about all 4.
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  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    In order for a class to be able to tank they need some kind of threat generation in their kit. Without that they physically cannot tank. So in order for X/Tank to be able to tank they need to generate threat.

    Of course, even with that there may be content that is designed in such a way that only a primary Tank can deal with it, but we'll have to see what Intrepid come up with.
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  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Percimes wrote: »
    There's also the "level" of what need to be tanked in the first place. All tank/x will be able to tank raid content, but hopefully x/tank will be able to tank non-raid content, you know, normal group encounters. Nothing official on that as far as I know though.
    It's not just a raid thing.
    x\Tank does not have Tank abilities.
    It's not necessarily totally impossible but you shouldn't expect an x\Tank to main tank.
    You could probably survive some group content without a Tank\x. Especially if you have several x\Tanks in the group.

    You keep saying they don't have tank abilities but what are you expecting? All the augments need to do is add more threat/hate generation and more survivability (probably in exchange for more some damage)

    With those two changes a x/tank could do the same job, just differently.

    And as someone else said, if they aren't getting some degree of tank capability, then that will probably always be ignored as a secondary...
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    I wonder what you think Secondary Archetype means other than secondary?
    Secondaries cannot fulfill primary roles because the don't have primary abilities - they have primary augments and augments are not as powerful as abilities.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Secondaries cannot fulfill primary roles because the don't have primary abilities.

    Not with that attitude...
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    This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I dunno what you mean by attitude - that is the game design.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    I dunno what you mean by attitude - that is the game design.

    The defeatist... you can't do it because "Primary roles" attitude. You gave up before you even tried it.
    Who knows what crazy ass builds will be possible.
    TVMenSP.png
    This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    I wonder what you think Secondary Archetype means other than secondary?
    Secondaries cannot fulfill primary roles because the don't have primary abilities - they have primary augments and augments are not as powerful as abilities.

    I don't need to change the ability, just the flavor to change the role

    Example
    A rogue has a fan of knives ability.
    A rogue/tank generates threat with any knife ability. Now every time he spams fan of knives he is generating AOE threat too.
    That could literally be all that augment does.
    Another augment could lead to increased dodge/evasion every time they cast something, or as long as they keep moving?

    I mean half the tank archetype abilities just have this generates threat tacked on the end... Why not make that part of the augments?
  • BiccusBiccus Member
    All tanking comes down to is threat(hate) generation and survivability. It’s really not that hard to add those aspects to other archetype abilities.
  • PercimesPercimes Member
    Biccus wrote: »
    All tanking comes down to is threat(hate) generation and survivability. It’s really not that hard to add those aspects to other archetype abilities.

    ^This^
    In the context of a small group, like 2-3 friends questing together, it might be enough to make things go smoothly. Or enough to give the hardiness to survive the attack of another player.

    In a full group context it might be a nice tool to take charge of an unexpected add without stressing to much about it, or protect another member of the party until the main tank regain the aggro. Splitting groups of mobs by pulling some off the main tanks and dealing with them first/last as the group decide.

    X/tanks won't turk ther jerbs.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Back in L2 I built an archer with an evasion build, maximizing evasion every way that I could figure out how to.

    She was great at dropping trains on bots and gold farmers, which was my original intention for her. I found that she was a decent tank under limited circumstances...particularly against smaller bosses. When she had the vampiric rage buff (returning part of the damage she did as healing on herself), she could solo all kinds of things.

    So I agree with @Vhaeyne that innovative experimentation might allow a player to discover all kinds of interesting possibilities. And there isn't any particular reason that you have to share your discovery with others!
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    SirChancelot11 wrote: »
    I don't need to change the ability, just the flavor to change the role

    Example
    A rogue has a fan of knives ability.
    A rogue/tank generates threat with any knife ability. Now every time he spams fan of knives he is generating AOE threat too.
    That could literally be all that augment does.
    Another augment could lead to increased dodge/evasion every time they cast something, or as long as they keep moving?

    I mean half the tank archetype abilities just have this generates threat tacked on the end... Why not make that part of the augments?
    Nope. That is not how it works.
    Primary Archetype determines the class role. Secondary archetype adds "flavor".
    A Rogue/Tank could generate some threat but not as much threat as a Tank/Rogue - not as much threat as any Tank/x.
    Which is why Tank/Rogue would be main tank while Rogue/Tank could be an off-tank.

    You're asking "why not make that part of augments" when I already explained to you that augments are purposefully designed to not be as powerful as abilities.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    I dunno what you mean by attitude - that is the game design.

    The defeatist... you can't do it because "Primary roles" attitude. You gave up before you even tried it.
    Who knows what crazy ass builds will be possible.
    It's not a defeatist attitude. That is the game design.
    Doesn't mean you can't try. Just because you try something doesn't mean it's possible for it to work.
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Nope. That is not how it works.

    Bruh. There's so little information on augments and secondary effects, that you saying it's not possible with such black and white conviction carries almost zero weight. This is all speculation until more information about it comes out...

    As far as my opinion goes
    If tank/x is the only option for a tank
    and cleric/x is the only option for a healer
    Their party builds are going to get very stale very fast. Opening it up to where x/tank or x/cleric can tank and heal would be an excellent move.

    Keep in mind I'm not saying every x/tank should be a good option... Example I don't think a Bard/tank should be able to tank anything, that's very out of wheelhouse and doesn't make sense lore wise.
  • BlackfordBlackford Member
    I just hope that Tank/Tank is as good a tank as Tank/Cleric or Tank/Bard but that their not "better". Unless their balanced theres going to be a glut of the meta tanks and outliers might be shunned.
  • PercimesPercimes Member
    edited May 2021
    SirChancelot11 wrote: »
    Keep in mind I'm not saying every x/tank should be a good option... Example I don't think a Bard/tank should be able to tank anything, that's very out of wheelhouse and doesn't make sense lore wise.

    The bard/tank grabs the mob by the hand and force it to dance with him, the rest of the party slash and throw spells at it on every forcefully imposed spin !

    And nothing taunts as much as a kazoo, we all know that.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    When we say Tank/X can tank everything we are quoting the Devs. The Devs literally said that. We are not sure how the secondary schools will work. You could build a tank from scratch and take threat generation from the secondary archetype, if there is a threat school but you could lack the oh shit button (Ultimate Defence), possibly lack charges, lack grapples, lack Hard CC. There is more to the Tank/X than threat generation.
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