The main problem is that we have a faction with the idea that all */tank should have tank role, and the other said that */tank never can be a tank.
I’m my opinion that game have more flexibility than that. It’s not necessary to make all */tank as a tank, for example cleric/tank can change playstyle to direct heal to shield based or add the shields to the main heal. Because range tank it’s hard to implement less summoner, but in case of Roger/Tank can be a Tank with evasion as a main Raid Tank, or Summoner/Tank focused on buff, heal and manage a Tanky pet.
The same happens with Tank/*, if all of them will be a Main Raid tank with small differences it’s too static and it’s not necessary to have 64 different combinations, my thoughts:
Tank/Tank -> Defense Tank
Tank/Rogue -> Evasion Tank, chain become to go to from pull
Tank/Cleric -> Self-Healing Tank
Tank/Bard -> Shield and shield ally Tank
Other Tank/* should be DPS role, and the same happens with other classes, the second don’t define a role change necessary could help your main function as cleric (direct heal + shields/hots/heal summon/buff on heal) but in other cases could become DPS.
This is a great opportunity to avoid the typical classes, you could have class that you dream based in your playstyle:
Tank: Hard Tank, Evasion Tank, Self-Heal Tank, Support Tank, Summon a Badass tanky pet, Tank who shot with bow and go back to have distance and avoid hits.
Cleric: Direct heal, Shield base, Hots base, Summon Healers to retreat, Increase damage when healing.
That kind of personalization make the opportunity to won’t see the clone party composition, and hours and hours of research to find the party to fits with your friends better.
The last thing: Combine summons to have one pet of 4 Summoner/tank in Raid to tank all the raid in a row not only in the siege.
This system is more complicated to implement but It’s a wet dream of everyone in the MMORPG have 8 different options to play with our favorite class. It’s like wow, one class with 8 tree talents.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The main problem is that we have a faction with the idea that all */tank should have tank role, and the other said that */tank never can be a tank.
I'm going to respond to this quickly and then expand on it later but...
I will attempt be very clear again...
I have not said anything at all like an x/Tank can never be a Tank. Nor have I said anything like an x/Tank will never be able to tank.
An x/Tank is a Tank. It's right there in the name. There can be no reasonable argument that an x/Tank is not a Tank. An x/Tank has Tank augments, so very clearly will be able to tank. It's absurd to claim that an x/Tank won't be able to tank.
Tank/x is being balanced to be a valid main tank for an 8-person group.
X/Tank is not being balanced to be a valid main tank for an 8-person group.
X/Tank allows Primary Archetypes to dabble as a Tank via Tank augments.
A Primary Archetype Tank is a primary tank - it's right there in the name.
A Secondary Archetype Tank is a secondary tank - it's right there in the name.
It may be possible for individuals to craft a build of x/Tank that can main tank, but expect that to be the exception rather than the rule because Steven has stated that Cleric augments will not replace the need for a Cleric Primary Archetype in an 8-person group. We can expect that to also be true for Tank augments: Tank augments will not replace the need for a Tank Primary Archetype in an 8-person group.
Tank/Rogue augments is a great example of an Evasion Tank.
Tank/Py'Rai augments might also be excellent Evasion Tanks.
Tank/Nikua augments might also be excellent Evasion Tanks.
Tank/Thieves' Guild augments might also be great Evasion Tanks.
Rogue/Tank augments will also likely be great Evasion Tanks - but most commonly will not replace the need for a Primary Archetype Tank in an 8-person group.
Cleric/Tank augments will also be a Self-Healing Tank - but most commonly will not replace the need for a Primary Archetype Tank in an 8-person group.
Bard/Tank augments could also be a Shield and/or Shield Ally Tank - but most commonly will not replace the need for a Primary Archetype Tank in an 8-person group.
In a Raid, you could have multiple groups of Summoners creating multiple Group Summons.
We also need to consider that tanking is also a player skill rather than just the combination of archetypes and augments. If an x/tank player is better at tanking than a tank/x player then the x/tank player will play the primary tank and the tank/x player will play the secondary. The archetype names don’t necessarily limit the players to one specific role the way it’s being portrayed. The tank/x will just have more tools to work with.
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ThexBlackxKnightMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Why not make X/Tank viable for 8 player group content but you will need a Tank/X for raiding , it would solve the tank shortage that other mmos have. Viable dose not mean X/Tank will be better then Tank/X but you can use them to complete smaller group content.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited June 2021
Because that would double the work for the devs throughout the life of the game. Really more.
The devs are actually balancing 8 Primary Archetypes rather than 64 classes.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
We also need to consider that tanking is also a player skill rather than just the combination of archetypes and augments. If an x/tank player is better at tanking than a tank/x player then the x/tank player will play the primary tank and the tank/x player will play the secondary. The archetype names don’t necessarily limit the players to one specific role the way it’s being portrayed. The tank/x will just have more tools to work with.
Sure, but this discussion is about having the augments change the abilities drastically enough that Secondaries can switch their role such that a Tank/Rogue could be primary rogue or a Rogue/Tank could be primary tank.
A Cleric can do DPS. That doesn't mean that a Cleric/Rogue will replace the need for a Primary Archetype Rogue or should be expected to be main DPS. A Cleric/Mage not replace the need for a Primary Archetype Mage nor should they be expected to be main ranged DPS.
Sure, but this discussion is about having the augments change the abilities drastically enough that Secondaries can switch their role such that a Tank/Rogue could be primary rogue or a Rogue/Tank could be primary tank.
A Cleric can do DPS. That doesn't mean that a Cleric/Rogue will replace the need for a Primary Archetype Rogue or should be expected to be main DPS. A Cleric/Mage not replace the need for a Primary Archetype Mage nor should they be expected to be main ranged DPS.
I've never said anything about a tank rogue being able to be a rogue....
The reason my question came about was because there's nothing that indicates that a tank/rogue will play any different than a tank with any other secondary... Nothing says that it will play like an evasion tank, that's why I asked if a rogue/tank would be more of an evasion tank type build. I wanted to see if I had missed any details on how secondary traits will change the primary one
I still haven't found any hard evidence of what augments do... Just a lot of plans and ideas... No actual in game stuff yet... So I brought up the question to see if anyone else had found anything that I missed... doesn't look like it...
Also you got a good point there with racial or religion augments, I didn't think they would change abilities that much... I pictured them being more of aesthetics or changes to quest types...
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited June 2021
I never said that you said anything about a Tank/Rogue being able to be a Primary Archetype Rogue.
Here is one of your quotes: "The system is either not going to change it enough to really be a different play style or it should change it enough to where it makes X/tanks viable tanks.
If the system only provides minor changes such as turning charge into a teleport charge or a shadow step charge the base archetype ability will still be charge and won't be changing the play style just a method... Now I agree that a rogue tank won't have a charge ability but that's what makes him a different playstyle tank than the tank archetype... And again I didn't say every X/tank or X/cleric option should be able to tank or heal for some it doesn't make sense. But having a few different combinations out there outside of tank and cleric would prevent take and cleric from being mandatory archetypes for every dungeon group."
If that's true for x/Tank and x/Cleric that should also be true for x/Rogue.
But, by design, Tank, Cleric, and Rogue augments do not replace the need for those Primary Archetypes in an 8-person group.
A Tank/Rogue will very likely be able to play as an Evasion Tank.
We can infer that because Steven confirmed that is possible even with racial augments. It seems likely there will be a Rogue Evasion School of augments.
Rogue/Tank will also likely be an Evasion Tank - but probably will not be main tank.
Augments are not in the game yet, so there is no hard evidence besides the game design.
And the knowledge that the devs are balancing for 8 Archetypes; not 64 classes.
Comments
I’m my opinion that game have more flexibility than that. It’s not necessary to make all */tank as a tank, for example cleric/tank can change playstyle to direct heal to shield based or add the shields to the main heal. Because range tank it’s hard to implement less summoner, but in case of Roger/Tank can be a Tank with evasion as a main Raid Tank, or Summoner/Tank focused on buff, heal and manage a Tanky pet.
The same happens with Tank/*, if all of them will be a Main Raid tank with small differences it’s too static and it’s not necessary to have 64 different combinations, my thoughts:
Tank/Tank -> Defense Tank
Tank/Rogue -> Evasion Tank, chain become to go to from pull
Tank/Cleric -> Self-Healing Tank
Tank/Bard -> Shield and shield ally Tank
Other Tank/* should be DPS role, and the same happens with other classes, the second don’t define a role change necessary could help your main function as cleric (direct heal + shields/hots/heal summon/buff on heal) but in other cases could become DPS.
This is a great opportunity to avoid the typical classes, you could have class that you dream based in your playstyle:
Tank: Hard Tank, Evasion Tank, Self-Heal Tank, Support Tank, Summon a Badass tanky pet, Tank who shot with bow and go back to have distance and avoid hits.
Cleric: Direct heal, Shield base, Hots base, Summon Healers to retreat, Increase damage when healing.
That kind of personalization make the opportunity to won’t see the clone party composition, and hours and hours of research to find the party to fits with your friends better.
The last thing: Combine summons to have one pet of 4 Summoner/tank in Raid to tank all the raid in a row not only in the siege.
This system is more complicated to implement but It’s a wet dream of everyone in the MMORPG have 8 different options to play with our favorite class. It’s like wow, one class with 8 tree talents.
I will attempt be very clear again...
I have not said anything at all like an x/Tank can never be a Tank. Nor have I said anything like an x/Tank will never be able to tank.
An x/Tank is a Tank. It's right there in the name. There can be no reasonable argument that an x/Tank is not a Tank. An x/Tank has Tank augments, so very clearly will be able to tank. It's absurd to claim that an x/Tank won't be able to tank.
Tank/x is being balanced to be a valid main tank for an 8-person group.
X/Tank is not being balanced to be a valid main tank for an 8-person group.
X/Tank allows Primary Archetypes to dabble as a Tank via Tank augments.
A Primary Archetype Tank is a primary tank - it's right there in the name.
A Secondary Archetype Tank is a secondary tank - it's right there in the name.
It may be possible for individuals to craft a build of x/Tank that can main tank, but expect that to be the exception rather than the rule because Steven has stated that Cleric augments will not replace the need for a Cleric Primary Archetype in an 8-person group. We can expect that to also be true for Tank augments: Tank augments will not replace the need for a Tank Primary Archetype in an 8-person group.
Tank/Rogue augments is a great example of an Evasion Tank.
Tank/Py'Rai augments might also be excellent Evasion Tanks.
Tank/Nikua augments might also be excellent Evasion Tanks.
Tank/Thieves' Guild augments might also be great Evasion Tanks.
Rogue/Tank augments will also likely be great Evasion Tanks - but most commonly will not replace the need for a Primary Archetype Tank in an 8-person group.
Cleric/Tank augments will also be a Self-Healing Tank - but most commonly will not replace the need for a Primary Archetype Tank in an 8-person group.
Bard/Tank augments could also be a Shield and/or Shield Ally Tank - but most commonly will not replace the need for a Primary Archetype Tank in an 8-person group.
In a Raid, you could have multiple groups of Summoners creating multiple Group Summons.
The devs are actually balancing 8 Primary Archetypes rather than 64 classes.
A Cleric can do DPS. That doesn't mean that a Cleric/Rogue will replace the need for a Primary Archetype Rogue or should be expected to be main DPS. A Cleric/Mage not replace the need for a Primary Archetype Mage nor should they be expected to be main ranged DPS.
I've never said anything about a tank rogue being able to be a rogue....
The reason my question came about was because there's nothing that indicates that a tank/rogue will play any different than a tank with any other secondary... Nothing says that it will play like an evasion tank, that's why I asked if a rogue/tank would be more of an evasion tank type build. I wanted to see if I had missed any details on how secondary traits will change the primary one
I still haven't found any hard evidence of what augments do... Just a lot of plans and ideas... No actual in game stuff yet... So I brought up the question to see if anyone else had found anything that I missed... doesn't look like it...
Also you got a good point there with racial or religion augments, I didn't think they would change abilities that much... I pictured them being more of aesthetics or changes to quest types...
Here is one of your quotes: "The system is either not going to change it enough to really be a different play style or it should change it enough to where it makes X/tanks viable tanks.
If the system only provides minor changes such as turning charge into a teleport charge or a shadow step charge the base archetype ability will still be charge and won't be changing the play style just a method... Now I agree that a rogue tank won't have a charge ability but that's what makes him a different playstyle tank than the tank archetype...
And again I didn't say every X/tank or X/cleric option should be able to tank or heal for some it doesn't make sense. But having a few different combinations out there outside of tank and cleric would prevent take and cleric from being mandatory archetypes for every dungeon group."
If that's true for x/Tank and x/Cleric that should also be true for x/Rogue.
But, by design, Tank, Cleric, and Rogue augments do not replace the need for those Primary Archetypes in an 8-person group.
A Tank/Rogue will very likely be able to play as an Evasion Tank.
We can infer that because Steven confirmed that is possible even with racial augments. It seems likely there will be a Rogue Evasion School of augments.
Rogue/Tank will also likely be an Evasion Tank - but probably will not be main tank.
Augments are not in the game yet, so there is no hard evidence besides the game design.
And the knowledge that the devs are balancing for 8 Archetypes; not 64 classes.