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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
But that kind of what I've been trying to say. The system is either not going to change it enough to really be a different play style or it should change it enough to where it makes X/tanks viable tanks.
If the system only provides minor changes such as turning charge into a teleport charge or a shadow step charge the base archetype ability will still be charge and won't be changing the play style just a method... Now I agree that a rogue tank won't have a charge ability but that's what makes him a different playstyle tank than the tank archetype...
And again I didn't say every X/tank or X/cleric option should be able to tank or heal for some it doesn't make sense. But having a few different combinations out there outside of tank and cleric would prevent take and cleric from being mandatory archetypes for every dungeon group.
Could you imagine if every WoW dungeon required you to have a warrior and a priest because those are the only options for tank and heals, sure holy priest is different than disc priest and they play different.... But every group is still going to have a warrior and a priest... That would get dull very fast.
You're counting tank/tank twice
Steven said, "indirectly there are some augments when applied to certain skills that can do this. But it would not replace a Cleric archetype."
So expect the same thing for Tank. x/Tank will have augments that indirectly allow for some tanking but will not replace a Tank/x.
That is the design. And that is the way the combat will be balanced.
Some individual players of x/Tank may find a way to main tank, sure. But, that is not the way the game is designed and is not the dev expectation - as in...the devs are not going to re-balance the game just because x/Tanks can't main tank and think they should be able..
There are already a few different combinations of main tank. And there are a few different combinations of secondary tank. Steven has said x/Cleric will not replace the Cleric Primary Archetype, so expect that x/Tank will not replace the Tank Primary archetype.
There are 8 types of Tank/x. There are 8 types of Cleric/x. The game is designed such that every group will want one of each Primary Archetype.
If you think that is dull - I guess you will find Ashes dull. But, that doesn't change the game design.
Yep. It might be 15 because I am not actually counting. Same difference.
It is difficult to understand the argument for X/Tank because we know very little about the dungeons and raids at this time. In my opinion 8 Tank options is plenty of tank options, the only problem will be is if Guardian will be ahead of the other 7 making the other 7 redundant for end game iterations. One would hope the Devs will build 8 distinct Tanks and all 8 will be viable. I don't need there to be 15 Viable Tanks, just 8 viable Tanks will be enough after augments.
It's not impossible that an individual player could cobble together an x/Tank that could main tank - but that is not a dev goal.
And, I dunno how happy the group would be that an x/Tank is trying to main tank rather than do whatever their Primary role is.
If @Dygz has his version of AoC the answer is I don't play AoC. I don't like that answer. I'm not asking for anything that is overpowered (I can only do one role at a time). I'm not doing anything that impacts other people's play (you can still choose the role you want).
Dygz... do you hate me?
I recommend archtype impacts your playstyle through what your core abilities actually are. It also drives your initial role in the lower levels. Augments should be powerful enough to modify your abilities to a degree that could change your role through buffs/debuffs. This would give the game so much more. This is true meaningful choice.
Oh and don't answer "alts" to my question about what class to play. I will do alts anyways, but there isn't the same time dedication for an alt vs a main. This game also doesn't look like it is going to be very alt friendly given how grindy it sounds like it may be. That's a separate problem of course.
You don't know what combat will end looking like at launch , none of us do, as it is going through a lot changes already. Just because Steven has a design idea doesn't mean it won't change and he already shown that he willing to change things.
WoW had tank/heal/dps in vanilla WoW. They actually met that player need. This is not a key driver in their attrition over time. If anything it was probably one of the key reasons for their initial success.
Over time they have made it easier to switch between roles and I think this has probably helped with the longevity of the game, not hurt it. I generally do not see players complaining about this part of the game as it benefits all player types (even those who only like one role benefit from the flexibility others can bring to the group).
It's other issues like raidfinder and borrowed power systems that are causing the WoW problems in recent years.
It doesn't have to be done through skill trees. It could be done through some augments that have highly impactful changes. Some augments might just increase something by a moderate amount (e.g adds a fire damage dot to the ability). Others might bring trade-offs to the ability (e.g. reduce the damage of the ability by 50%, but create a buff that reduces damage taken for 12 seconds by 30%... i.e. a meaningful choice).
Choice of weapons could further impact the role specialization. E.g. equipping a shield makes you more tanky at the cost of dps.
WoW did this early on with its talent system. They evolved it into role selection first and then a smaller set if talents. Both systems worked well and have their pros/cons. I don't think AoC should do it through the talents. I think AoC should do it through augments + weapons + armor. This would make a very exciting system with lots of anti-meta meaningful choice (and the fun of continuously trying out different things. This is way more exciting/engaging than making the single Archtype once at the start. It also gives increased flexibility long term and more playability over time).
Cleric*Tank will be able to tank. Self healing and tank armor
We don't know much about the augments from the classes, little less the augments from Societies and Religion. There definitely will be radical changes from augments but the Hard Counters will remain. You can blend the Primary to lessen the gap but the gap will still remain. If you want to heal though, choose a Healing Class (Cleric or Bard), if you want to Tank, choose tank, if you want to DPS then you have the widest options there could be. The game does not have to cater to those people who want all roles on one toon. There is no reason to put all roles onto one toon. The idea is to group with others, not to make a one toon army.
Imagine if a Cleric/Tank could use some augments that amplifies the threat generated by their heals and other augments that beefs up their survivability, but at the cost of their healing output. That could lead to some interesting gameplay. What about the whip having an augment that taunts and pulls the target to you?
Probably more of an off-tank/get all the adds rounded up type of spec than say a Shadow Guardian (Rogue/Tank) that could tank the boss through strong evasion, etc.
It could also be interesting in pvp where maybe you don't take the threat modify augment but you do take the augments to buff up your survivability.
Not every single */Tank needs to be a boss tank, but more than Tank/* should be (and some of the Tank/* should be better suited for a DPS role than a tank role so the tank has options).
Now imagine a Cultist (Rogue/Cleric) does less DPS than any of the Rogue/DPS classes, but has augments that causes the Rogue's damaging abilities to heal party members. Maybe some augments that directly heal only the rogue. You have the combat playstyle of the rogue abilities, but the outcome of your actions is different (less DPS with the tradeoff a group healing). Or maybe some of the augments changes one of your abilities to target a friendly instead of an enemy and heals/buffs them instead of damaging them (this might work better with a mage... e.g. turn your fireball that damages an enemy into a something that surrounds an ally in holy fire that protects them while damaging nearby enemies)...
So much possibility... so much meaningful choice...if the Augments are truly powerful.
We'll just have to wait and judge the whole role and meta possibilities once they're actually measurable in game.
This is the bit I’m talking about. The x augments from tank/x need to really change the abilities a lot or it won’t feel like 8 tanks, it’ll just feel like 1 and that’s what I worry about.
So for example take resounding smash from tank.
Tank/rogue removes the secondary hit and creates a smoke cloud that increases dodge chance.
Tank/ranger makes it a ranged ability
Tank/cleric again removes the second hit but puts down a healing patch on their location
Tank/mage makes it a larger radius and adds an elemental debuff .
Tank/fighter removes the initial hit but gives it a gap closer.
I mean augments that feels like actually change in the abilities.
With your logic, we may as well discuss Ashes combat as if it will be exactly like WoW combat.
Again, willing to change fundamentals at this point really means Steven is willing for the game to vaporware.
If they get combat to be as polished as wow combat , it will be a very successful game. I would wouldn't mind having wow's combat in a game that has the features of Ashes. I don't mind tab target. Players might want more options for tanking , its open for change.
The devs are are balancing the 8 versions of Primary Tank to make sure they can all main tank because the role of a Primary Archetype Tank is to primarily tank.
They are not going to balance the game such that a Primary Archetype Cleric can primarily tank because the primary role of a Primary Archetype Cleric is not tank. A Cleric/Tank does Celric stuff primarily, with a bit of tanking.
I understand that you wish it would be different, but just because you wish something does not mean that's the way it will be. Your wish is not what the game design actually is.
I didn’t say anything about x/tank filling the tanking role so don’t quote me and pretend that’s what I said, if you don’t mind.
I think you can choose any of the augments you have in your arsenal and you won't just be stuck with using only augments from one school.
@Biccus
There is not only one Tank playstyle but you can only use Tank abilities; you can't use abilities from other Archetypes.
There are 8 different versions of Primary Tank. So, at least 8 different versions of Primary Archetype Tank playstyles. Probably more with the 4 augment schools of each Secondary archetype. And all the other augments you get: social, naval, religious, racial, etc.
I covered several things in one post. If the shoe doesn't fit don't wear it...if you don't mind.
You really didn’t. You misquoted me and you just won’t admit to it. Unless it was intentional..
I don’t know if you just can’t comprehend other people arguments but again.. I didn’t say anything about being given other archetype abilities, this is you trying to twist my words AGAIN.
What I want to see is the abilities being changed to incorporate the augmenting classes identity so it feels like almost like a hybrid of the 2 classes.
How can you argue that there will be 8 different play styles and then say the abilities of the 8 play styles are all identical.
U.S. East
It'll take a lot of micro management to main tank with a pet. looking at the recent boss vids, I'm not sure how they'd do main tanking when I'm seeing mechanics that need active avoidance. (like that jumping mechanic)