[Discussion] Community

I have had a lot of my doubts about the game squashed by helping test A1. It is by far the best Alpha I've been a part of. Yet there are a few concerns I still have about the games possibility of success. The most notable is the community aspect.

Community is BY FAR the most important thing in an MMO. You could have the greatest game ever but have it completely decimated by a toxic community. For comparison references I'm going to use WoW since it is well known to all MMO players and it has also begun a second version of it's journey. To understand where I'm coming from know that I just turned 35 over the weekend and have been playing MMOs since Ultima Online. IMO there were no better communities than the UO and original WoW communities. I believe this is why they were so successful.

The original classic WoW had a variety of elements to bring people together. You had to manually from dungeons, there were a ton of group quests, and the buffing system also added to a friendly atmosphere. It was extremely easy to find new friends and the game brought people together. With the rerelease of Classic WoW I saw the polar opposite of this. People were antisocial, they paid for dungeon runs instead of running them, and buffing people 90% of the time resulted in no interaction. I was completely dumbfounded how bad the game was the second time around... and it's the same game! The difference in community made all the difference. I couldn't even finish leveling to 60 before I quit playing, and that is saying a lot considering how much I love classic and TBC. IT takes A LOT for me to not want to continue playing WoW in it's best state.

Now, the community aspect is something outside Intrepid's hands. They have been doing a great job promoting the positive people covering the game so far. Yet after witnessing the Discord I have my concerns. There are a lot of good people, but there are also a lot of bad people. Some so bad I've seen straight up bullying tactics being used in the Discord. This has me a bit concerned. If you did this stuff in WoW back in the day you would never get a guild and be an outcast. The second time around no one even bats an eye and considers it normal. Maybe it's just my age showing, but I feel as if that mentality can greatly harm the success chances to the game.

Granted it's too early to tell how things will play out, but Ashes is being designed as an extremely social game. Most MMOs are theme parks that require no socialization which may be the cause for the toxic and lazy behavior I've been witnessing in the second version of WoW. I'm curious what everyone else's thoughts are on this topic. Is anyone else concerned?

I plan to talk about this on the first episode of my talk show coming soon, so it would be nice to get some other opinions.

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Comments

Yuyukoyay

They would have to implement ways to avoid mass reporting because of 1 person for those kinds of systems to exist. Streamers often get people banned for laughs just because they tell a good quarter of the server to report a single person. Often for no reason. That is the problem with built in systems for this kind of thing.

It's more important to build the game around stopping abuse of systems than to build with the community in mind. If players don't have an avenue to essentially cheat then they won't. If they are able to cheat then they will take it 100% of the time. The game is already built to punish toxicity in many ways. Especially if there won't be server linking system and the only people you see are on your server. If they maintain the servers properly then there shouldn't be like 100 different servers. xD It may be wise to have more at the start and if it turns out you don't need them, then fuse them into other servers in the same regions.

I don't necessarily believe the mentality that players always only seek to benefit themselves with balance recommendations, but there will always be those with that in mind. Those are the kind of people that run around telling people they are playing the wrong build and not having fun in the right way. They are a plague to the genre because MMO's often aren't built so that min/maxing is the only way to beat the content. All it does is alienate people who want to play certain viable ways and makes them quit leaving the morons behind.

The problem with WoW's community is often that they chased all of the players people like away and all that was left was the toxic assholes. It's impossible to have a balanced community when they are all toxic assholes. A lot of the players that never say anything in WoW are actually nice players who learned to not talk because no one ever had anything good to say.

With classic WoW I also play a few days behind the min/maxing crowd on purpose because you get better interactions with the stragglers.

D3ATHSPARK

truelyyy wrote: »

I'm not sure what your point is. In games just like IRL you get toxic people, if you want to ignore them just block them, that's what I do. Not worth the hassle of someone trying to argue with you for no reason.

This is a beyond simplistic perspective. You can't just block a player sharing the same game as you as their actions still matter. I brought up the point that the culture in gaming is trending negative and people are just accepting that behavior. Saying "There are just bad people out there" is confirming that point. You've already accepted it and consider it normal.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

They would have to implement ways to avoid mass reporting because of 1 person for those kinds of systems to exist. Streamers often get people banned for laughs just because they tell a good quarter of the server to report a single person. Often for no reason. That is the problem with built in systems for this kind of thing.

It's more important to build the game around stopping abuse of systems than to build with the community in mind. If players don't have an avenue to essentially cheat then they won't. If they are able to cheat then they will take it 100% of the time. The game is already built to punish toxicity in many ways. Especially if there won't be server linking system and the only people you see are on your server. If they maintain the servers properly then there shouldn't be like 100 different servers. xD It may be wise to have more at the start and if it turns out you don't need them, then fuse them into other servers in the same regions.

I don't necessarily believe the mentality that players always only seek to benefit themselves with balance recommendations, but there will always be those with that in mind. Those are the kind of people that run around telling people they are playing the wrong build and not having fun in the right way. They are a plague to the genre because MMO's often aren't built so that min/maxing is the only way to beat the content. All it does is alienate people who want to play certain viable ways and makes them quit leaving the morons behind.

The problem with WoW's community is often that they chased all of the players people like away and all that was left was the toxic assholes. It's impossible to have a balanced community when they are all toxic assholes. A lot of the players that never say anything in WoW are actually nice players who learned to not talk because no one ever had anything good to say.

With classic WoW I also play a few days behind the min/maxing crowd on purpose because you get better interactions with the stragglers.

I'd agree with pretty much all of this.

Cold 0ne FTB

I think the community is fine. I have yet to truly sen something that made me really question the toxicity or health of the community. At the end of the day this is a competitive game and we are all adults. Some people will lose and some will win. Move on. It's that simple. In my experience it's the more casually minded players that bring the most toxicity. They just label anybody who even remotely cares about doing stuff well an elitest and doesn't really listen to anybody else. But so far this game doesn't really have this demographic.

Cold 0ne FTB

Also aren't you the guy who blocked several guilds just because you didn't like people genuinely disagreeing with you? In my book that's kinda toxic.

Merek

Why is every recent thread basically, "I can't handle conflict in a competitive game!", or, "Saying stuff I don't like is toxic!". Toxicity is in the eye of the beholder, general banter to some is scathing abuse to others. If you don't like it, do what you would in the real world, ignore it.

tautau

.."some will lose and some will win." @Cold 0ne FTB

I am not sure about that because there is no one way to win in AoC. What is winning? Is everything that is not winning, therefore, losing?

I think 'winning' is having a good time playing the game. That will sometimes include not having a good time. I'll have lots of goals starting out and many others as I play. I will achieve some of them.

We might have a really nice thread about what different people call winning in a game without winners. Kind of like in 'real life' - at what point do you win?

Maezriel

tautau wrote: »

.."some will lose and some will win." @Cold 0ne FTB

I am not sure about that because there is no one way to win in AoC. What is winning? Is everything that is not winning, therefore, losing?

I think 'winning' is having a good time playing the game. That will sometimes include not having a good time. I'll have lots of goals starting out and many others as I play. I will achieve some of them.

We might have a really nice thread about what different people call winning in a game without winners. Kind of like in 'real life' - at what point do you win?

Winning in AoC is when I stand atop you all as the God-King of Verra

Cold 0ne FTB

tautau wrote: »

.."some will lose and some will win." @Cold 0ne FTB

I am not sure about that because there is no one way to win in AoC. What is winning? Is everything that is not winning, therefore, losing?

I think 'winning' is having a good time playing the game. That will sometimes include not having a good time. I'll have lots of goals starting out and many others as I play. I will achieve some of them.

We might have a really nice thread about what different people call winning in a game without winners. Kind of like in 'real life' - at what point do you win?

No? What are you even talking about? You either win or you lose the castle seige. You either get pked or you kill the pker. In Ashes alot of the systems are designed in away where if you don't succeed and somebody else succeeds. Where everybody doesn't just get a participation prize from showing up. Is everything that isn't a win a loss? No but there will be alot of things some people will never get to do, get to complete or get to have. That's okay. It's also not toxic to have this in a game.

Yuyukoyay

So the community will be goofy. Got it. xD

Dygz

Cold 0ne FTB wrote: »

You either win or you lose the castle siege. You either get pked or you kill the pker. In Ashes a lot of the systems are designed in away where if you don't succeed and somebody else succeeds. Where everybody doesn't just get a participation prize from showing up. Is everything that isn't a win a loss? No but there will be a lot of things some people will never get to do, get to complete or get to have. That's okay. It's also not toxic to have this in a game.

Did someone in this thread refer to any of that as toxic or is that just something you made up in your own head about what people refer to as toxic??

Maezriel

Dygz wrote: »

Cold 0ne FTB wrote: »

You either win or you lose the castle siege. You either get pked or you kill the pker. In Ashes a lot of the systems are designed in away where if you don't succeed and somebody else succeeds. Where everybody doesn't just get a participation prize from showing up. Is everything that isn't a win a loss? No but there will be a lot of things some people will never get to do, get to complete or get to have. That's okay. It's also not toxic to have this in a game.

Did someone in this thread refer to any of that as toxic or is that just something you made up in your own head about what people refer to as toxic??

I mean the entire thread is about general toxicity in the community and a not insignificant number of people believe the forced PvP parts of the game will be the primary source of that toxicity.

PrincessKenny

Sunshine and rainbows. I see no toxic here. Aoc is most carebear game ever.

Cold 0ne FTB

Maezriel wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Cold 0ne FTB wrote: »

You either win or you lose the castle siege. You either get pked or you kill the pker. In Ashes a lot of the systems are designed in away where if you don't succeed and somebody else succeeds. Where everybody doesn't just get a participation prize from showing up. Is everything that isn't a win a loss? No but there will be a lot of things some people will never get to do, get to complete or get to have. That's okay. It's also not toxic to have this in a game.

Did someone in this thread refer to any of that as toxic or is that just something you made up in your own head about what people refer to as toxic??

I mean the entire thread is about general toxicity in the community and a not insignificant number of people believe the forced PvP parts of the game will be the primary source of that toxicity.

This is so true.

PrincessKenny wrote: »

Ok this is real rich coming from OP. Bro you blocked entire guilds because you disagreed with what people were saying. Maybe I'm wrong, but people who can't stomach being challenged on an idea and call everyone who disagrees with them "toxic" are the toxic people. OP is toxic imo, and you can't prove me wrong because the burden of proof is on the accused. See how that works? Yeah good luck with your "talkshow" since you're just in here farming for subject matter to blather on about for 3 hours.

At some point you need to wonder, is it really all these other people or is it just me?

Kodu

i will be tuning in to this great talkshow.

ThexBlackxKnight

This thread kind of proves toxicity will be alive and well in Ashes. A few old school mmo players talking in the forums is not reflection of what the community will be like and pvp games will draw in more toxic players.

Yuyukoyay

MMO's are guaranteed to have a base level of toxicity, but whatever I saw in the threads isn't real toxicity yet. Go play League of Legends for 1 day and then you can say if this is toxic or not. xD

Dygz

Maezriel wrote: »

I mean the entire thread is about general toxicity in the community and a not insignificant number of people believe the forced PvP parts of the game will be the primary source of that toxicity.

Forced PvP is toxic. Which is why, in Ashes, forced PvP is penalized with Corruption.

D3ATHSPARK

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

MMO's are guaranteed to have a base level of toxicity, but whatever I saw in the threads isn't real toxicity yet. Go play League of Legends for 1 day and then you can say if this is toxic or not. xD

PrincessKenny wrote: »

Sunshine and rainbows. I see no toxic here. Aoc is most carebear game ever.

IF you just observe the Ashes Discord you will see what I'm talking about. (most commonly the guild chat channel). The forums are very civil and miles better than the first impression the Discord gives off. I've talked to a lot of people in the community and the majority won't even use the Ashes Discord for this reason.

Someone also pointed out to me that there are thousands of people in there and probably 99.99% of them don't talk, so the level of toxicity may be small. The ones who do are usually the loud mouthed toxic players, and anyone who tried to start a conversation will usually get discouraged as one or more of the toxic players will belittle that person and try to shun them away.

Dygz

The Discord Guild channel is pretty toxic from what I recall, but...
I rarely hang out in Discord and when I do, it's never in the Guild channel.
The Questions channel seems fine. And the General channel is typically OK.

Phantom5533

Hello everyone!

Guys, let's be honest with each other: toxicity is the part of every game. Well, almost every game. For instance, I came here from Arma 2 DayZ Epoch and I can say that people who are playing shooters -- can also be toxic. However, I still have a dream of some kind of gaming utopia with zero tolerance to toxicity.

I've been bullied by my guild just because I was reading a book https://amazon.com/dp/B094NMRWPJ and they were not. Simple book! Can you imagine that?

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