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How will block / ignore / function over to general gameplay and trade?

Let´s say i run my tannery and leather armor shop in a node. During my hunts and trade routes, i encounter a very toxic player. This player ends up being blocked by me and put on ignore or whatever the feature is called.

Now...the question.

I have Blocked / Ignored Player X.
Player X comes to my stall. Can player X browse and shop even after i put him / her on block?

I would like to ask if a system as follows have been talked about, or considered?

* A player that owns / runs a store or stall, aka anything that sells items will have access to an ability to control their business. This by connecting their Block / ignore list to cross check the names of the player that want to shop.
* If the customer wanting to shop is blocked or ignored, the store will be closed to said player.


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Comments

  • ZeshioZeshio Member
    Would you want a system like that? You don't really say which way you lean on the issue.

    If you block someone from socials, I don't see how that would block someone from paying for your gear or buying an auction from you. I feel like it could get prohibitively burdensome on the server to check who you can buy from and who you can't before providing an updated list. It'd be much easier for the server to just have one list for all players that it can call.

    Additionally, imagine it the other way around- people could abuse this system to ban certain guilds from purchasing gear, or entire towns, etc. To me that creates a situation where you're reducing the fun and playability for other players when they haven't necessarily done anything wrong. Folks could use this to force people to join guilds (otherwise they can't progress with gear), block people from social interaction in certain areas, and create other levels of toxicity.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Ahhh, and embargo of a node as a negotiation tool in diplomacy, what an idea!

    The next step would be to try to stop all caravans into and out of the node. Which would give rise to smuggling, Rogues being hired to smuggle for the node...how fun!
  • GrihmGrihm Member
    Zeshio wrote: »
    Would you want a system like that? You don't really say which way you lean on the issue.

    If you block someone from socials, I don't see how that would block someone from paying for your gear or buying an auction from you. I feel like it could get prohibitively burdensome on the server to check who you can buy from and who you can't before providing an updated list. It'd be much easier for the server to just have one list for all players that it can call.

    Additionally, imagine it the other way around- people could abuse this system to ban certain guilds from purchasing gear, or entire towns, etc. To me that creates a situation where you're reducing the fun and playability for other players when they haven't necessarily done anything wrong. Folks could use this to force people to join guilds (otherwise they can't progress with gear), block people from social interaction in certain areas, and create other levels of toxicity.

    I don´t see an issue having to option to further block / ban people. If you act like an ****** in let´s say PVP or in general, why should i do you any favors and allow you to buy my items?

    Reducing the fun and playability? If people do not act poorly to begin with, that would not be an issue.
    And as for the banning guilds from purchasing gear... no i don´t see that being a problem.
    I feel it may be blown out of proportion for starters. It should be up to the player selling the items who he or she wishes to sell to. Also.. A specific market for vetted reputation could be used, and not only a server wide one. That way, you can always trade in the general version, but not in Guild A and B´s.

    I have not had access to the test yet, so i cant see or experience how any trade systems work or would work ahead, but i stand by that i feel the Seller should be the deciding factor of a sale or no sale.

    Actions have consequences, and behaving like a miss spelled duck overall, should not reward you.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    As a general concept, this wont really accomplish much.

    The block/ignire feature cant work account wide - as that would make detecting espionage far too easy.
    Thus, all the player needs to do to be able to purchase from your stall is use an alt.
  • GrihmGrihm Member
    Noaani wrote: »
    As a general concept, this wont really accomplish much.

    The block/ignire feature cant work account wide - as that would make detecting espionage far too easy.
    Thus, all the player needs to do to be able to purchase from your stall is use an alt.

    Why would a ban not function for alts as well? Any actual reason, or just a hunch?
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    Ignore should allow you to prevent your stalls/inn from servicing a blocked person but I don't think it should apply to the more anonymous marketplace/auctionhouse as it would probably be too much of a hassle.
  • GrihmGrihm Member
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Ignore should allow you to prevent your stalls/inn from servicing a blocked person but I don't think it should apply to the more anonymous marketplace/auctionhouse as it would probably be too much of a hassle.

    Fully agreed. Any " general " vendors or trade houses that encompasses for all should be open for all, but if i own my own stall or trade shop, i should be able to decide if i want to sell or not. You don´t have to be able to /ignore an entire guild, but on a name by name base absolutely.
  • YuyukoyayYuyukoyay Member
    Would be nice to have a ban list for services that were in the game. This idea actually solves all the other issues I see the game having. That is if they act like douche bags then no one will sell to their entire guild. You can push players and guilds out of the community by doing this. I like the idea because it gives smaller groups of players power over guilds. Guilds should not be the absolute highest level of power in this game and this is a good step to making it that way. Communities as a whole should be the absolute highest level of power whether they include guilds or not.
    zZJyoEK.gif

    U.S. East
  • GrihmGrihm Member
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    Would be nice to have a ban list for services that were in the game. This idea actually solves all the other issues I see the game having. That is if they act like douche bags then no one will sell to their entire guild. You can push players and guilds out of the community by doing this. I like the idea because it gives smaller groups of players power over guilds. Guilds should not be the absolute highest level of power in this game and this is a good step to making it that way. Communities as a whole should be the absolute highest level of power whether they include guilds or not.

    Thank you for the adding of ideas.
    It is indeed a very good detail that a smaller guild will not become bullied or threatened into submission. Tons of OOC ( out of character ) and OOG ( out of game ) hate and threats exist since we have so many sources of media outside a game. Many may not dare say NO to a massive guild that forces their ways on everyone...and these guilds do really exist. Seen countless in my days, of all sizes. A majority needs only to be loud, not massive in numbers, and if they have little to no conscience, they have very few limits.

    Also, as stated before...you should be able to make a stand outside PVP, because this is not simply a matter of who can fight who, we have all kinds of gamers, and we all share one space.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Grihm wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    As a general concept, this wont really accomplish much.

    The block/ignire feature cant work account wide - as that would make detecting espionage far too easy.
    Thus, all the player needs to do to be able to purchase from your stall is use an alt.

    Why would a ban not function for alts as well? Any actual reason, or just a hunch?

    If I suspect a rival guild may attempt to spy on my guild, all I need to do is place every member of that rival guild on my ignore list. If anyone in my guild is then also ignored, I know they are in that rival guild and as such are a spy.

    This game needs espionage to be possible, and ignore working accountwide would make that not the case.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    IMO, block/ignore should only limit someone's ability to whisper you or you seeing what they say in chat.
    It should not do anything else.
    hKBVnLk.png
  • Someone sorta brought this up already, but it would be nice to have it as a separate feature.
    Blocking and ignoring is more of an ooc feature, while barring someone from buying from your stall or receiving services from you is more in character. You might not necessarily want to cut off contact with someone just because you don’t want to sell to them. If the game thrives off politics as much as we hope it will, this might be a nice feature without having to ruin any immersion.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »

    If I suspect a rival guild may attempt to spy on my guild, all I need to do is place every member of that rival guild on my ignore list. If anyone in my guild is then also ignored, I know they are in that rival guild and as such are a spy.

    This game needs espionage to be possible, and ignore working accountwide would make that not the case.

    Why does this game 'need' espionage? Genuine question, no sarc. I like the idea of it but 'need' indicates a design balance that 'needs' taken into account, so I am interested in what you think those are.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    JustVine wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    If I suspect a rival guild may attempt to spy on my guild, all I need to do is place every member of that rival guild on my ignore list. If anyone in my guild is then also ignored, I know they are in that rival guild and as such are a spy.

    This game needs espionage to be possible, and ignore working accountwide would make that not the case.

    Why does this game 'need' espionage? Genuine question, no sarc. I like the idea of it but 'need' indicates a design balance that 'needs' taken into account, so I am interested in what you think those are.

    Because Intrepid is not going to be spoon-feeding you a baby story to click through every six months. The games the best stories are going to be told through politics and social interaction. Espionage, is a big part of that.

    Shit like this is way more real than any story a dev could ever write:
    hKBVnLk.png
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Well I am glad I wasn't asking you because that really doesn't answer my question. There are a lot of social systems already. What about these systems is lacking that requires a mechanism from the game to facilitate it. I'll take my answer from Noaani.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    JustVine wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    If I suspect a rival guild may attempt to spy on my guild, all I need to do is place every member of that rival guild on my ignore list. If anyone in my guild is then also ignored, I know they are in that rival guild and as such are a spy.

    This game needs espionage to be possible, and ignore working accountwide would make that not the case.

    Why does this game 'need' espionage? Genuine question, no sarc. I like the idea of it but 'need' indicates a design balance that 'needs' taken into account, so I am interested in what you think those are.

    Basically what Vhaeyne said above.

    Ashes isn't about a world with deep lore and content that tells a story. We are basically walking in to a world that is lore-less, story-less, and the game is about us making those stories.

    Espionage on a guild and node level are absolutely key to that, and Steven has even said as much in the past. Conflict like this is where good stories are born.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited June 9
    @Noaani how do you propose we deal with harassing players in this case. Live gm's should not be involved in petty squabbles, that too is story. But most games have some sort of block feature to handle this. Its a fine balance between social interactivity and anti social behaviors traditionally benefitting from a instanced ban.

    Perhaps there is a middle ground we aren't considering to make the proposed ban mechanic still workable. For example private guild member lists available only to guild leaders/lieutenants?
  • GrihmGrihm Member
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    JustVine wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    If I suspect a rival guild may attempt to spy on my guild, all I need to do is place every member of that rival guild on my ignore list. If anyone in my guild is then also ignored, I know they are in that rival guild and as such are a spy.

    This game needs espionage to be possible, and ignore working accountwide would make that not the case.

    Why does this game 'need' espionage? Genuine question, no sarc. I like the idea of it but 'need' indicates a design balance that 'needs' taken into account, so I am interested in what you think those are.

    Because Intrepid is not going to be spoon-feeding you a baby story to click through every six months. The games the best stories are going to be told through politics and social interaction. Espionage, is a big part of that.

    Shit like this is way more real than any story a dev could ever write:

    Newcomers are reading these suggestions, and things like that is not helping bud. Feel free to post a constructive post instead, and ease down the attitude. Spoon feeding a baby story?

    Behaviour like this is exactly what i was referring to, when mentioning a typ of characteristic that claws their way to the top and it´s THEIR way or nothing. The players i want to be able to refuse my sales to.





  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    JustVine wrote: »
    Noaani how do you propose we deal with harassing players in this case.

    I'm not proposing anything.

    Intrepid want espionage to be a thing in Ashes, and they know this means they need to avoid any system that allows a player to connect two characters to one account.

    It is up to them to avoid these systems, and to deal with anything that may happen from them being avoided.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Grihm wrote: »

    Newcomers are reading these suggestions, and things like that is not helping bud. Feel free to post a constructive post instead, and ease down the attitude. Spoon feeding a baby story?

    Behaviour like this is exactly what i was referring to, when mentioning a typ of characteristic that claws their way to the top and it´s THEIR way or nothing. The players i want to be able to refuse my sales to.

    It is not a suggestion. It is the way the game is intended to be. The whole point of a robust node system, castle sieges, and risk vs reward is the unique stories that are created per-server in the process of betrayal, in-fighting and drama.

    If you think my behavior is harsh, get thicker skin. You are going to have bigger problems then who can buy your wares and who said something that sounded harsh in Verra.
    hKBVnLk.png
  • GrihmGrihm Member
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Grihm wrote: »

    Newcomers are reading these suggestions, and things like that is not helping bud. Feel free to post a constructive post instead, and ease down the attitude. Spoon feeding a baby story?

    Behaviour like this is exactly what i was referring to, when mentioning a typ of characteristic that claws their way to the top and it´s THEIR way or nothing. The players i want to be able to refuse my sales to.

    It is not a suggestion. It is the way the game is intended to be. The whole point of a robust node system, castle sieges, and risk vs reward is the unique stories that are created per-server in the process of betrayal, in-fighting and drama.

    If you think my behavior is harsh, get thicker skin. You are going to have bigger problems then who can buy your wares and who said something that sounded harsh in Verra.

    That´s your opinion, it´s not a fact. If it was a fact, wee would not have these threads.
    Every single time i hear the " oh it´s the risk vs reward / the hardcore setting " etc etc... warning bells go off. Especially with the " get thicker skin " addition.

    This is not a one sided PVP only setting. There are lots of parts needed to function in sync with each other. I get it, you like pvp, but it´s just one part of it all.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Grihm wrote: »
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Grihm wrote: »

    Newcomers are reading these suggestions, and things like that is not helping bud. Feel free to post a constructive post instead, and ease down the attitude. Spoon feeding a baby story?

    Behaviour like this is exactly what i was referring to, when mentioning a typ of characteristic that claws their way to the top and it´s THEIR way or nothing. The players i want to be able to refuse my sales to.

    It is not a suggestion. It is the way the game is intended to be. The whole point of a robust node system, castle sieges, and risk vs reward is the unique stories that are created per-server in the process of betrayal, in-fighting and drama.

    If you think my behavior is harsh, get thicker skin. You are going to have bigger problems then who can buy your wares and who said something that sounded harsh in Verra.

    That´s your opinion, it´s not a fact. If it was a fact, wee would not have these threads.
    Every single time i hear the " oh it´s the risk vs reward / the hardcore setting " etc etc... warning bells go off. Especially with the " get thicker skin " addition.

    This is not a one sided PVP only setting. There are lots of parts needed to function in sync with each other. I get it, you like pvp, but it´s just one part of it all.

    Go to:

    https://ashesofcreation.com/

    Scroll down.

    Read first key feature. (Risk Vs Reward)

    Scroll down again.

    Read second key feature. (An Open World)
    hKBVnLk.png
  • GrihmGrihm Member
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Grihm wrote: »
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Grihm wrote: »

    Newcomers are reading these suggestions, and things like that is not helping bud. Feel free to post a constructive post instead, and ease down the attitude. Spoon feeding a baby story?

    Behaviour like this is exactly what i was referring to, when mentioning a typ of characteristic that claws their way to the top and it´s THEIR way or nothing. The players i want to be able to refuse my sales to.

    It is not a suggestion. It is the way the game is intended to be. The whole point of a robust node system, castle sieges, and risk vs reward is the unique stories that are created per-server in the process of betrayal, in-fighting and drama.

    If you think my behavior is harsh, get thicker skin. You are going to have bigger problems then who can buy your wares and who said something that sounded harsh in Verra.

    That´s your opinion, it´s not a fact. If it was a fact, wee would not have these threads.
    Every single time i hear the " oh it´s the risk vs reward / the hardcore setting " etc etc... warning bells go off. Especially with the " get thicker skin " addition.

    This is not a one sided PVP only setting. There are lots of parts needed to function in sync with each other. I get it, you like pvp, but it´s just one part of it all.

    Go to:

    https://ashesofcreation.com/

    Scroll down.

    Read first key feature. (Risk Vs Reward)

    Scroll down again.

    Read second key feature. (An Open World)


    What´s your point in this, in regards to my OP?
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Grihm wrote: »
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Grihm wrote: »
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Grihm wrote: »

    Newcomers are reading these suggestions, and things like that is not helping bud. Feel free to post a constructive post instead, and ease down the attitude. Spoon feeding a baby story?

    Behaviour like this is exactly what i was referring to, when mentioning a typ of characteristic that claws their way to the top and it´s THEIR way or nothing. The players i want to be able to refuse my sales to.

    It is not a suggestion. It is the way the game is intended to be. The whole point of a robust node system, castle sieges, and risk vs reward is the unique stories that are created per-server in the process of betrayal, in-fighting and drama.

    If you think my behavior is harsh, get thicker skin. You are going to have bigger problems then who can buy your wares and who said something that sounded harsh in Verra.

    That´s your opinion, it´s not a fact. If it was a fact, wee would not have these threads.
    Every single time i hear the " oh it´s the risk vs reward / the hardcore setting " etc etc... warning bells go off. Especially with the " get thicker skin " addition.

    This is not a one sided PVP only setting. There are lots of parts needed to function in sync with each other. I get it, you like pvp, but it´s just one part of it all.

    Go to:

    https://ashesofcreation.com/

    Scroll down.

    Read first key feature. (Risk Vs Reward)

    Scroll down again.

    Read second key feature. (An Open World)


    What´s your point in this, in regards to my OP?

    I was answering Justvine's question. Justvine did not like that I answerd for noaani, but noaani agreed.

    I gave my opinion to the OP earlier in the thread:
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    IMO, block/ignore should only limit someone's ability to whisper you or you seeing what they say in chat.
    It should not do anything else.

    Limiting things with block/ignore outside of chat in a open world PvX game is a mistake. It opens the door to all sorts of abuse methods.

    The only reason you should be able to block or ignore people is chat spam. Not because you don't like them. You are still going to have to deal with people you don't like in the game. That is part of the intrigue and drama.
    hKBVnLk.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited June 10
    But, I think we will already of some of that with permissions for our Freeholds.

    I think it would be cool if some NPCs blocked sales from their stalls for players characters they don't like.
    But, that is more challenging to program.

    Since we have an NPC manning our stalls -possibly even with the appearances of our player characters- it makes some sense that we should be able to refuse service to characters on our block lists.
    Just because the game is open world, does not mean our player characters should be obligated to sell to anyone who comes to our stall.
    But, it really depends on what the devs are able to implement.


    Sathrago wrote: »
    Ignore should allow you to prevent your stalls/inn from servicing a blocked person but I don't think it should apply to the more anonymous marketplace/auctionhouse as it would probably be too much of a hassle.
    Tavern/Inn, Auction House and Stall are different services, so I would expect they might have different mechanics for blocking.
    I would think it should be OK for your character or minion to not sell items from your stall to someone you've blocked, but items at an Auction House probably would not come with instructions like - "Don't sell to these people."
    A tavern/inn is a Freehold, so...permissions might effectively ban people. Best if we could put specific players on a KOS list for the NPC guards we hire. But, that seems like a hefty programming challenge.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dygz wrote: »
    But, I think we will already of some of that with permissions for our Freeholds.

    I think it would be cool if some NPCs blocked sales from their stalls for players characters they don't like.
    But, that is more challenging to program.

    Since we have an NPC manning our stalls -possibly even with the appearances of our player characters- it makes some sense that we should be able to refuse service to characters on our block lists.
    Just because the game is open world, does not mean our player characters should be obligated to sell to anyone who comes to our stall.
    But, it really depends on what the devs are able to implement.

    Personally, I would never in a million years block sales from someone I hate. Greed is more useful of an emotion than hate to me.

    That said, I could see people creating anticompetitive trade blacklists. Which could be good for drama and political intrigue. I just would worry that there is other possible abuse methods that are more destructive to the game.

    At a minimum, the trade blacklist would have to be separate from normal chat block/ignore. Otherwise, it removes the whole block/ignore feature from the game for guys like me who only block people when they spam.

    I also agree that it is extra crap to implement. The feature creep is real.
    hKBVnLk.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Some people are more greedy than others, but we have plenty of history of people being banned from stores for a variety of reasons. Especially known thieves.

  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dygz wrote: »
    Some people are more greedy than others, but we have plenty of history of people being banned from stores for a variety of reasons. Especially known thieves.

    Right, but that is when you have to deal with them in person. If it was as easy as: (Here is the product, thank you for the money). People would only get banned out of dislike.

    Which to me is a waste of money. I can understand banning the person who steals, or breaks things in a store.

    I can't understand banning someone from a vending machine because they said something or did something you don't like. It is just a waste of money to me.
    hKBVnLk.png
  • MerekMerek Member
    Sounds like a tool for a griefer. Anyway, if you did block me and stop me from using the only leather armor store in my node, you wouldn't be able to get mats, that's all I'll say.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Feature creep is valid concern. This system could be buggy af. No one likes losing out on a sale due to bugs and that's one of the potential things they'd need to run even more extensive qa than other features to prevent huge backlash. Otoh itd probably be part of the block system anyway if one of those systems is implemented. But tats a separate discussion.
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