How will block / ignore / function over to general gameplay and trade?

Let´s say i run my tannery and leather armor shop in a node. During my hunts and trade routes, i encounter a very toxic player. This player ends up being blocked by me and put on ignore or whatever the feature is called.

Now...the question.

I have Blocked / Ignored Player X.
Player X comes to my stall. Can player X browse and shop even after i put him / her on block?

I would like to ask if a system as follows have been talked about, or considered?

* A player that owns / runs a store or stall, aka anything that sells items will have access to an ability to control their business. This by connecting their Block / ignore list to cross check the names of the player that want to shop.
* If the customer wanting to shop is blocked or ignored, the store will be closed to said player.

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Noaani

Grihm wrote: »

Is that really a valid way to find that out?

It is using a game system. How is that not valid?

Grihm wrote: »

A system does not simply stand or fall on one single consequence, so elaborate how this would ruin the espionage part of Ashes.

I have done this twice already. If I know you are a player that has a character in a rival guild, I know you are likely a spy.

If we have easy ways to detect spies like this, espionage isn't possible as a key aspect of spying on others is them not knowing you are doing it.

Grihm wrote: »

Since you are clearly this invested in seeing this system not being used, i would assume you have several examples of the reason to vote it away.

Why do I need several examples?

Intrepid have said they want espionage to be a key aspect of how players play this game (it is more important to Steven than RP, from what I can tell), and the suggestion of an account wide blacklist will prevent people from being able to spy on rival guilds.

As such, if Intrepid want to keep espionage in the game, they can't have that account wide blacklist. The two ideals are not compatible, Intrepid needs to pick one or the other, and have made it clear they want espionage.

Grihm

Then @Noaani i thank you for voicing your concern. I will consider how i could offer any options on alterations to lessen your spy vetting process if i feel it becomes of such a level of problem as you say.

But since you are not really elaborating on anything else, and i personally don´t see this as even half as problematic as you do, i thank you for the input. I feel the thread is becoming a bit stale with just back and forth on this singe subject, and i´m not here for that. You can always open a separate thread and voice how a system as this would ruin spy crafts and voice your own suggestions however.

Onward.

When it comes to reporting harassments in game, will the report box be a generic one, or does it include a selection set where we can add screenshots, timestamps, zones etc?

Also, will these reports be just in game, or will it cross over to the support part of your log in screen online?

Noaani

Grihm wrote: »

But since you are not really elaborating on anything else, and i personally don´t see this as even half as problematic as you do, i thank you for the input.

What is there to elaborate on?

Intrepid want espionage in Ashes.

In order to spy on my guild, you need a character in my guild.

If you join my guild with a character, I can see if you have a character in a guild I have identified as being a rival guild that may want to spy on my guild - using that blacklist.

If I can see you are from a rival guild, you won't be let in to my guild as that is a clear sign you are a sphy.

Again, what about that needs elaboration?

Grihm

Noaani wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

But since you are not really elaborating on anything else, and i personally don´t see this as even half as problematic as you do, i thank you for the input.

What is there to elaborate on?

Intrepid want espionage in Ashes.

In order to spy on my guild, you need a character in my guild.

If you join my guild with a character, I can see if you have a character in a guild I have identified as being a rival guild that may want to spy on my guild - using that blacklist.

If I can see you are from a rival guild, you won't be let in to my guild as that is a clear sign you are a sphy.

Again, what about that needs elaboration?

Last time now @Noaani and i hope you can respect my wish on my own thread NOT becoming just the two of us back and forth.

You are using an off game way to vett your spies, and i see that as just as off-putting as using a Youtube video guide of how to kill the boss or how to find this and that collectable.

I am focusing on a system to prevent harassment, off gamle blackmail and scammers. All in an ingame and player driven system.

I have heard your spy issue, and that´s the only one you present. I thank you for the final time for your input, and i am stating that if you wish, please open a new thread and counter this all you want to your hearts content. Not in here, because this is more than this single part you are stuck on.

So, thank you for your one contribution, i have it noted.

Noaani

Grihm wrote: »

You are using an off game way to vett your spies

It isn't off game, it would be a part of the game if it were added. Ashes is not a forced RP game (no games are), which is the only way this comment could ever make sense.

If Intrepid adds a feature to the game, it is fair to use it how ever players see fit. Why wouldn't that be the case?

Grihm wrote: »

I am focusing on a system to prevent harassment, off gamle blackmail and scammers. All in an ingame and player driven system.

Preventing harassment is good, but scamming is a part of the game.

Your proposal for a marketplace blacklist will have no impact on harassment, however.

tautau

Just have the potential spy come from your second (unblocked) account and you can circumvent the 'blocked account' mechanic.

Venessa

I agree that the most block/ignore should do is stop the person's messages from reaching you.

Let's say it did also work as stopping them from purchasing your items, I can see why it can be both wanted and unwanted, since you can easily prevent individuals who've done nothing wrong from purchasing your things. But that just means less customers for you and taking longer to sell something, it's not absolutely terrible as it's similar to simply reserving your items for sale to those you know.

But I agree with what @Zeshio said, and overall it just creates an unnecessary system that can be abused/monopolised and cause other unnecessary issues or levels of toxicity. Also what are the chances that the toxic player will find you in a city and want to buy what you're selling from you when they might be able to get it from other sellers that they haven't been annoying? I understand not wanting to sell to them but it's likely not going to be as much of an issue you think it might be.

I definitely don't think it should be an account wide ban, considering the espionage comments as well, would you be able to view the list of names you've blocked? In that case, blocking on person will allow you to see all the alts they own because they'd be blocked too right? That would be a bit messy, it's easier to just block the account bothering you and leave it as that. If they come harassing you on your alt, then at that point block them too, it's quick and easy to do so.

Grihm

Venessa wrote: »

I agree that the most block/ignore should do is stop the person's messages from reaching you.

Let's say it did also work as stopping them from purchasing your items, I can see why it can be both wanted and unwanted, since you can easily prevent individuals who've done nothing wrong from purchasing your things. But that just means less customers for you and taking longer to sell something, it's not absolutely terrible as it's similar to simply reserving your items for sale to those you know.

But I agree with what @Zeshio said, and overall it just creates an unnecessary system that can be abused/monopolised and cause other unnecessary issues or levels of toxicity. Also what are the chances that the toxic player will find you in a city and want to buy what you're selling from you when they might be able to get it from other sellers that they haven't been annoying? I understand not wanting to sell to them but it's likely not going to be as much of an issue you think it might be.

I definitely don't think it should be an account wide ban, considering the espionage comments as well, would you be able to view the list of names you've blocked? In that case, blocking on person will allow you to see all the alts they own because they'd be blocked too right? That would be a bit messy, it's easier to just block the account bothering you and leave it as that. If they come harassing you on your alt, then at that point block them too, it's quick and easy to do so.

I was recently told about the escrow system, and i did not know of this at all. That system alone reduces the issues by a lot, as if a person is blocked, that person cannot converse with you, so in the end, this will do wonders alone.

Noaani

Grihm wrote: »

I was recently told about the escrow system, and i did not know of this at all. That system alone reduces the issues by a lot, as if a person is blocked, that person cannot converse with you, so in the end, this will do wonders alone.

Is this your way of saying that I was right when I said there were other ways of dealing with the issues you were trying to deal with, and that an account wide blacklist is indeed not the right system for Ashes?

Not that the escrow system will prevent the types of harassment that you were talking about - although neither would a blacklist.

Grihm

Noaani wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

I was recently told about the escrow system, and i did not know of this at all. That system alone reduces the issues by a lot, as if a person is blocked, that person cannot converse with you, so in the end, this will do wonders alone.

Is this your way of saying that I was right when I said there were other ways of dealing with the issues you were trying to deal with, and that an account wide blacklist is indeed not the right system for Ashes?

Not that the escrow system will prevent the types of harassment that you were talking about - although neither would a blacklist.

No, and at this point bud, it´s getting a bit much. As i said..i had never heard about that system before, and no one mentioned it to me either, including you. This system will help with some, since you cannot trade with me if you are blocked.

Noaani

Grihm wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Grihm wrote: »

I was recently told about the escrow system, and i did not know of this at all. That system alone reduces the issues by a lot, as if a person is blocked, that person cannot converse with you, so in the end, this will do wonders alone.

Is this your way of saying that I was right when I said there were other ways of dealing with the issues you were trying to deal with, and that an account wide blacklist is indeed not the right system for Ashes?

Not that the escrow system will prevent the types of harassment that you were talking about - although neither would a blacklist.

No, and at this point bud, it´s getting a bit much. As i said..i had never heard about that system before, and no one mentioned it to me either, including you. This system will help with some, since you cannot trade with me if you are blocked.

In terms of player-to-player trade, no.

But in most games, you can't trade with players that you have ignored anyway.

The escrow system has no impact at all on selling via the marketplace, and if you go back to the examples you gave of things you want to prevent

Grihm wrote: »

* Harassed and forced to hang around their abusers
* Targeted and forced to sell to rivals for low sums, unless they will keep getting ganked
* Threatened and or blackmailed into submission and free workforce for the abusers

Neither the blacklist you propose nor the escrow system will stop any of this.

The only thing the escrow system will really stop that wouldn't already be stopped is scams where a crafter asks the player to supply materials and then doesn't return the desired item.

If the situations you listed earlier are indeed what you want to see prevented, the escrow system will not assist with them - which is why I never bought it up.

Basically, the escrow system will appear much like a crafting UI window, the main difference being that two players have access to it. A player (likely the crafter) selects the desired outcome, the purchaser of the service/item selects the amount of coin to go to the crafter, and both players add components and materials to the window from their own inventory until all components and materials are accounted for (or the purchaser adds components and materials, and what is not supplied is assumed to come from the crafter).

There will likely also be provision here for stat allocation.

Then the crafter creates the item using the materials added to the UI element, on completion the item goes directly to the purchaser, and the coin goes directly to the crafter.

None of this is any use to a player that is being forced against their will to hang around with harassers - which is one of the situations you thought a blacklist would solve.

Dygz

Venessa wrote: »

What are the chances that the toxic player will find you in a city and want to buy what you're selling from you when they might be able to get it from other sellers that they haven't been annoying? I understand not wanting to sell to them but it's likely not going to be as much of an issue you think it might be.

I think it would be just as likely as people tracking down your Freehold.
However much of an issue it might be to find a player character's trade stall, still seems like that should have the same kind of Permissions as on your Freehold.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

However much of an issue it might be to find a player character's trade stall, still seems like that should have the same kind of Permissions as on your Freehold.

Why?

A shop and a persons house a very different things. While not true everywhere, in most of the world it is illegal to refuse to sell an item to any person willing to pay the advertised price for an item offered up for general sale.

Grihm

@Dygz Are you to be in the test for the next phase as well?

Dygz

Yes. And I'll be taking suggestions for what people want me to test once the visual NDA is lifted.

Grihm

Dygz wrote: »

Yes. And I'll be taking suggestions for what people want me to test once the visual NDA is lifted.

Fantastic. Very kind of you.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

A shop and a persons house a very different things. While not true everywhere, in most of the world it is illegal to refuse to sell an item to any person willing to pay the advertised price for an item offered up for general sale.

I was going to bring this up too, but I did not think it was super relevant. Turning down service is something you can do, but it is often difficult to implement face to face.

You can't really block people face to face in the real world, the best you can get is a restraining order, but if people want to "Flag Red" they can physically get to you and ruin your day if they want.

I feel like Ashes may have plenty of people willing to throw down over shop refusal. "Okay, you want to block my guild from buying your wears? Welcome to the KOS list." All of your caravans now get sieged (Cutting down your supply), and you have to constantly watch your back twice as hard. Even around your shop. You can't go out to farm or craft more because you just die.

I could see things escalating to the point that you end up with a drastic loss in profit/time and in the end you drop the block and maybe even have to offer a discount for your life to go back to normal.

In open world situations like IRL and Ashes I don't see blocking people as a power move that makes problems go away. I see it as a move that only makes you weaker by creating a potential enemy. In blocking someone you make it far less likely that they will ever be helpful to you in the future. With good diplomacy, you could potentially turn a problem player into a trusted client. Ain't no diplomacy being done when a block is in effect.

Dygz

"Right to Refuse Service Signs give restaurants, stores, schools, clubs, and other service providers an authority to refuse their services to patrons, unless they are doing it on the basis of race, color, religion, or natural origin, which is against law."

Cart before the horse. The reason to refuse service to a guild is because they KOS your caravans.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

"Right to Refuse Service Signs give restaurants, stores, schools, clubs, and other service providers an authority to refuse their services to patrons, unless they are doing it on the basis of race, color, religion, or natural origin, which is against law."

Apple before the cart. The reason to refuse service to a guild is because they KOS your caravans.

While this is the case in about the same number of places in the world as those that don't use the metric system, in most of the world you are given a list of valid reasons you can refuse service, rather than reasons you can not refuse service.

Intoxication is one such reason, as is specific restrictions placed on the items you are selling.

I also would strongly suggest you don't rely too heavily on what is essentially a signwriting company (where you got the above quote from) for legal advice. Not that it seems you are doing that right now - just more of a general piece of free advice.

Vhaeyne

Dygz wrote: »

Cart before the horse. The reason to refuse service to a guild is because they KOS your caravans.

Yes, and the reason you are on KOS is that you refused service in this hypothetical situation.

Leaving a channel for diplomacy open is always going to be a stronger option than blocking people.
Like, I said blocking people is not a feature in the real world. You can take steps to reduce the channels people can go through to interact with you, but you can't prevent interaction.

Ashes is going to be much more dangerous than the real world because the punishment for murder is much less harsh. Even if you got your block feature for sales, you might find that it is not worth using for these reasons.

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