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Fighter Desires Compilation and Analysis/Conversion
Azherae
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
This week's compilation is about Fighters, mainly because there's more time for it than usual. As always, data is taken only from this official thread and this unofficial(?) one, I didn't go back further to the other official one or trawl too hard for more.
Disclaimer: I am not a Fighter, but there are potential Fighters in my group and we've talked about what we think Fighters need. Since this is a compilation thread though, I am trying to keep those biases out of it and in their own thread. If you see anywhere I slip, call it out, please.
Things that Fighter-interested people want, pretty hard to sort properly, possibly some duplicate counts but I tried to avoid them:
Fighters are pretty challenging to compile because they seem to have strong detailed opinions less often than other classes other than 'lots of people wanting to Dual Wield' and 'lots of Orcish Dreadnoughts'. There are two potential reasons for this.
1. Fighters generally don't care or don't have a bunch of incredibly creative things they want.
2. Fighters expect things to be pretty obvious to designers based on prior things.
While #1 is always true to some extent for all classes, assuming Fighter stereotypes is classist, to say the least. But #2 doesn't seem to stand up to it either, since many still wanted previews or noted that they needed to see the class, and almost all the Spellswords had really vivid concepts. We'll go with 'Fighters are more hands-on' for the time being, at least in this thread (there are various reasons why that can't be assumed as an 'option 3' though)
Since a few players did have precise opinions, though, that means most of the things below are based on them.
1.Fighters want weapon choice to matter considerably, or to become a jack of all trades through abilities and weapons
2. Fighters want good HP and reasonable defenses that they can then choose to leverage
3. Fighters want their Augments to play a strong role in their combat style (and if it doesn't, many will switch to Fighter as secondary Archetype instead)
So let's take a swing at it...
There's a lot of it, and separating 'things people could get from their secondary' from 'things they want from their primary' took a while, but it can be done with the exception of two desires. So here's the data breakdown of things people wanted or seemed to want based on their secondaries.
Unlike Rogues who are more likely to 'just specialize and not take all abilities', most Fighters other than Highswords (and those moving toward Berserker concepts) seem very likely to unlock everything in order to have the maximum number of skills, to therefore apply their Augments to. Weaponmasters are likely to do the same for a different reason.
This pulls us back to that Reverse Engineered Augments List which I don't 'like' doing as it directly adds bias, but Fighters are not only strongly dependent on Augments, they seem to be extremely so, basically 'will switch the Primary and Secondary Archetypes if the Augment system doesn't work the way they want'.
Fortunately with the abilities listed above, the group with the highest 'need for a careful look at it' seems to be the Spellswords, and it might be the intention of Ashes to make those people become BattleMages, and quite a few seemed at least somewhat interested in that too, given the lack of restriction on the weapon system.
As always...
THIS POST IS IN NO WAY AN EXPLANATION OF WHAT INTREPID IS ACTUALLY DOING
But I really hope all Fighters get what they want whenever that Archetype is revealed. I'd say that right now, only 95% might, and the other 5% have to hope that the 'reversed' Archetype Combination does the job for them, and the number of 'hopefuls' will rise if the Augment system is not what most people seem to be expecting.
If you post in this thread, you don't need to note if you posted before in one of the other two. I had to make a whole list this time to verify all the duplicates. In the end it was only barely worth it, I only found two that I missed.
"I guess Fighters just look all the same to me."
"Yo that's classist."
"I know ;_;"
Disclaimer: I am not a Fighter, but there are potential Fighters in my group and we've talked about what we think Fighters need. Since this is a compilation thread though, I am trying to keep those biases out of it and in their own thread. If you see anywhere I slip, call it out, please.
Things that Fighter-interested people want, pretty hard to sort properly, possibly some duplicate counts but I tried to avoid them:
1. 8 Undecided + 1 Meta + Dual Wield if no fullstealth Rogue + Samurai + Favors Dreadnought, three Lancers (two explicit one implicit), one Fighter that wants their Monumental Ability and will decide based on what those are like, another wanted some grapples, nearly all of these wanted to Dual Wield. One that wanted to charge abilities and maybe move while charging them.
2. 1 Highsword was contingent on which way Augments work, four others wanted this class
3. Three Hunters didn't say too much, but had alternates within the Fighter Archetype and, of course, wanted ranged attacks. One other hoplite.
4. One Spellsword specifically wanted 'Rune Stacking' from their Elemental augments, another was unsure which way to combine archetypes, based on Augments, a third was most interested in teleportation Augments and a fourth in Ice ones, two others wanted this class(to look sexy), yet four others were less obviously interested in the sexiness.
5. Two Weaponmasters wanted to have a tool for every situation including light CCs and defensive options, one of whom wanted a counter, eight others wanted this class, of which one was also willing to be a Tellsword, and one had specific concepts ( @Bladen - as 'Berserker/Barbarian' or Dreadnought)
6. One Dreadnought wanted enough HP to be an offtank (willing to be any Fighter tho), one other might be this or a ShadowLord, another had very specific wishes that might end up being on ShadowBlade, another had a specific list, seven others wanted this class
7. Three Shadowblades were unsure (two unsure about which way to combine archetypes), another wanted a few mobility and stealth options, another was considering Spellsword too, yet another was considering Bladecaller,
8. One Bladecaller wanted to be able to summon multiple floating swords, another wanted to be able to change their focus from AoE to single, and a third seemed to think it would probably be different in game than they were envisioning, a fourth wanted to transform, and a fifth wanted more specific 'reapplications of buffs from their gear', four others wanted this class
9. One Bladedancer has done this before, and is happy to do it again, another wasn't sure which direction to combine the Archetypes. Four others wanted this class.
2. 1 Highsword was contingent on which way Augments work, four others wanted this class
3. Three Hunters didn't say too much, but had alternates within the Fighter Archetype and, of course, wanted ranged attacks. One other hoplite.
4. One Spellsword specifically wanted 'Rune Stacking' from their Elemental augments, another was unsure which way to combine archetypes, based on Augments, a third was most interested in teleportation Augments and a fourth in Ice ones, two others wanted this class(to look sexy), yet four others were less obviously interested in the sexiness.
5. Two Weaponmasters wanted to have a tool for every situation including light CCs and defensive options, one of whom wanted a counter, eight others wanted this class, of which one was also willing to be a Tellsword, and one had specific concepts ( @Bladen - as 'Berserker/Barbarian' or Dreadnought)
6. One Dreadnought wanted enough HP to be an offtank (willing to be any Fighter tho), one other might be this or a ShadowLord, another had very specific wishes that might end up being on ShadowBlade, another had a specific list, seven others wanted this class
7. Three Shadowblades were unsure (two unsure about which way to combine archetypes), another wanted a few mobility and stealth options, another was considering Spellsword too, yet another was considering Bladecaller,
8. One Bladecaller wanted to be able to summon multiple floating swords, another wanted to be able to change their focus from AoE to single, and a third seemed to think it would probably be different in game than they were envisioning, a fourth wanted to transform, and a fifth wanted more specific 'reapplications of buffs from their gear', four others wanted this class
9. One Bladedancer has done this before, and is happy to do it again, another wasn't sure which direction to combine the Archetypes. Four others wanted this class.
Fighters are pretty challenging to compile because they seem to have strong detailed opinions less often than other classes other than 'lots of people wanting to Dual Wield' and 'lots of Orcish Dreadnoughts'. There are two potential reasons for this.
1. Fighters generally don't care or don't have a bunch of incredibly creative things they want.
2. Fighters expect things to be pretty obvious to designers based on prior things.
While #1 is always true to some extent for all classes, assuming Fighter stereotypes is classist, to say the least. But #2 doesn't seem to stand up to it either, since many still wanted previews or noted that they needed to see the class, and almost all the Spellswords had really vivid concepts. We'll go with 'Fighters are more hands-on' for the time being, at least in this thread (there are various reasons why that can't be assumed as an 'option 3' though)
Since a few players did have precise opinions, though, that means most of the things below are based on them.
1.Fighters want weapon choice to matter considerably, or to become a jack of all trades through abilities and weapons
2. Fighters want good HP and reasonable defenses that they can then choose to leverage
3. Fighters want their Augments to play a strong role in their combat style (and if it doesn't, many will switch to Fighter as secondary Archetype instead)
So let's take a swing at it...
Obviously anyone who read the classes and chose Fighter has at least some preference for the playstyle defined of 'gap closer with good damage' over others, or they're in the latter part of #3 above and not committed to Fighter as Main Archetype. The challenge then is to first make sure to give dedicated Fighters everything they need and then figure out how much inclusiveness can be balanced in.
Things that multiple people explicitly said they wanted which don't depend on secondary:
AoE 'Whirlwind', 'Rush', 'Leap', 'Counter', AoE 'Stomp', AoE Fear/Slow control skill
Things that specific people explicitly said they wanted that don't depend on secondary (skills only):
Bloodlust, Warcry, Rampage, Contention (Regen of some damage taken)
Things that multiple people explicitly said they wanted which don't depend on secondary:
AoE 'Whirlwind', 'Rush', 'Leap', 'Counter', AoE 'Stomp', AoE Fear/Slow control skill
Things that specific people explicitly said they wanted that don't depend on secondary (skills only):
Bloodlust, Warcry, Rampage, Contention (Regen of some damage taken)
There's a lot of it, and separating 'things people could get from their secondary' from 'things they want from their primary' took a while, but it can be done with the exception of two desires. So here's the data breakdown of things people wanted or seemed to want based on their secondaries.
The Hunters generally didn't have specific concepts other than the obvious 'Accuracy and ranged attacks'. Almost all the Spellswords really wanted to be able to use different elements with different abilities, or even 'abilities that basically acted as small offhand spellcasting'. The Bladedancers weren't terribly particular about which buffs they wanted to be giving.
Weapon Masters wanted lots of different skills to solve problems, and Bladecallers were universally thematic in their summoning of multiple blades. Highswords tended to want to participate in party content similar to tanks.
Weapon Masters wanted lots of different skills to solve problems, and Bladecallers were universally thematic in their summoning of multiple blades. Highswords tended to want to participate in party content similar to tanks.
Unlike Rogues who are more likely to 'just specialize and not take all abilities', most Fighters other than Highswords (and those moving toward Berserker concepts) seem very likely to unlock everything in order to have the maximum number of skills, to therefore apply their Augments to. Weaponmasters are likely to do the same for a different reason.
This pulls us back to that Reverse Engineered Augments List which I don't 'like' doing as it directly adds bias, but Fighters are not only strongly dependent on Augments, they seem to be extremely so, basically 'will switch the Primary and Secondary Archetypes if the Augment system doesn't work the way they want'.
Fortunately with the abilities listed above, the group with the highest 'need for a careful look at it' seems to be the Spellswords, and it might be the intention of Ashes to make those people become BattleMages, and quite a few seemed at least somewhat interested in that too, given the lack of restriction on the weapon system.
As always...
THIS POST IS IN NO WAY AN EXPLANATION OF WHAT INTREPID IS ACTUALLY DOING
But I really hope all Fighters get what they want whenever that Archetype is revealed. I'd say that right now, only 95% might, and the other 5% have to hope that the 'reversed' Archetype Combination does the job for them, and the number of 'hopefuls' will rise if the Augment system is not what most people seem to be expecting.
If you post in this thread, you don't need to note if you posted before in one of the other two. I had to make a whole list this time to verify all the duplicates. In the end it was only barely worth it, I only found two that I missed.
"I guess Fighters just look all the same to me."
"Yo that's classist."
"I know ;_;"
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
0
Comments
The strongest "fighter" identity that sticks out in my mind is the Berserker style:
I had the opposite problem for this Compilation. Avoiding bias and references to my own models required holding back on a lot of stuff.
In Cardinal, 'fighters' are split into Monks (Martial Artists) and Lancers (gap closers), with 'Berserker' actually folded into Paladin.
I don't doubt that 'Fighter as just one Archetype' can do the job, but I can't write about it, because it will definitely become just 'writing the equivalent of a 10 page design document'. It would be impossible to keep bias out, and probably start arguments between the four different types of Fighter if there was any engagement.
I think it would be really cool if he had mechanics promoting more weapon swapping during a fight.
Obviously not the same weapon but similar to the switch axe in monster hunter. Being able to swap back and forth between a two-hander or a sword and shield or dual wielding swords.
And when he weapon swaps he can get a buff and if he keeps weapon swapping throughout the fight he can maintain the buff so rather than just having weapon combos off of one weapon he would have to string combos with multiple weapons...
The fighter should not summon javelins of light/thunder like in ESO bdo or the cleric of AoC A1.
The fighter should not summon energy weapons like the samurai/musa in bdo or naruto.
The fighter should use weapon swings, slashes, smashes and piercing attacks.
Maybe shoulder charges, leaps, sparta kicks and battlecries.
I dont want to see any magic on the fighter archetype.
I dont care if the fighter uses MP or stamina or rage.
The fighter, the rogue and the tank should have visually different attacking animations on their class abilities.