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The "Hearthstone" Dilemma - Potential Solution

KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
Making this a separate topic because I feel this may be a solution that is different from anything other games have offered while still sticking true to core values that AoC is promising.

Gliding mounts will be in game and offer players the ability glide or hover above the ground a few feet. For example, a gryphon (with clipped wings I guess? haha). If water mounts allow exceptional travel in water and ground mounts allow for sprints and other functions, why can't "gliding" mounts offer the ability to truly glide through the sky?

During a raid or roaming, your risk is always there with a potential counter raid. Do we really need the risk of traveling back home? Is it really that important for this game to still be fun and engaging and difficult?

My suggestion is this, give players the ability to launch into the air from specific locations in main cities and after a raid is cleared and glide freely until they hit the ground OR for X amount of time. There could be an npc that appears after the end boss is cleared giving you the option. The NPC can tie in to the lore/gods and offer assistance.

What this does it is gives a raid group (or any individual player) a boost from the city to head in the direction they need to go. I am not talking about being able to traverse vast distances....just a boost to clear the area without traveling back through the city. This also gives the raid a way to get some of the travel time back. A reward for defeating the last boss of a raid or dungeon. Maybe even a cool animation that sends us up. I don't see how this could hurt the core values or lower any real risk.

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Comments

  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    This seems like something that would best be served by a metropolis buff
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    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Maezriel wrote: »
    This seems like something that would best be served by a metropolis buff

    100% agree. Only having 5 of these static in the world would be very cool. Maybe only give this option during the end of a raid and not a dungeon. I don't see how this would hurt the game and any way and I see it as giving the game something unique to further set it apart from competition.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Khronus

    As all players drop a percentage of materials on death, it is still worthwhile to risk going red fighting another successful raid as they leave a dungeon. If you give successful raids an easy escape for winning, it takes away from the risk vs reward.

    It should not be enough just to fight your way into the boss and take its loot and magically fly back. I think you should actually have to go there and back again. I always hated the eagles at the end of Lord of the Rings.

    I would not care about Ashes at all if I did not see the excitement in Steven when he talks about risk vs reward and open world PvP in interviews. I prefer not to see any risk vs reward diminished with quick trips back to town.

    Just how I feel, though.
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  • ariatrasariatras Member, Founder
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    @Khronus

    As all players drop a percentage of materials on death, it is still worthwhile to risk going red fighting another successful raid as they leave a dungeon. If you give successful raids an easy escape for winning, it takes away from the risk vs reward.

    It should not be enough just to fight your way into the boss and take its loot and magically fly back. I think you should actually have to go there and back again. I always hated the eagles at the end of Lord of the Rings.

    I would not care about Ashes at all if I did not see the excitement in Steven when he talks about risk vs reward and open world PvP in interviews. I prefer not to see any risk vs reward diminished with quick trips back to town.

    Just how I feel, though.

    One of the main reasons I am against the family summon. "Alright lads. Everyone give the materials to Bob here. Bob's wife is waiting in town to summon him."
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  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    ariatras wrote: »
    One of the main reasons I am against the family summon. "Alright lads. Everyone give the materials to Bob here. Bob's wife is waiting in town to summon him."

    I hope it's not that bad.
    hKBVnLk.png
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member
    edited July 20
    ariatras wrote: »
    One of the main reasons I am against the family summon. "Alright lads. Everyone give the materials to Bob here. Bob's wife is waiting in town to summon him."

    "The summon ability in current design could not be used if the member being summoned was in combat, corrupted, or in an event (caravan battle, siege, war) and they would need to have their mats, gatherables, or certs in their warehouse/storage not in their inventory. Otherwise the summon would fail. But as I said, this will all be tested.[3] – Steven Sharif"
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Family_summon

    Pretty sure they're not wanting you to be able to family-summon while you have materials on you. But, I still think the summon is a shit idea. Part of a system that involves getting a "special" rested bonus when you're in bed with your spouse. Creepy. Just plain creepy. I can't remember what the age requirement is for this game, but kids already play 18+ games. It could get real dark, real quickly. Would be a shame if Ashes got a reputation for being the paedo's game of choice.
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  • AerlanaAerlana Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 20
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Pretty sure they're not wanting you to be able to family-summon while you have materials on you. But, I still think the summon is a shit idea. Part of a system that involves getting a "special" rested bonus when you're in bed with your spouse. Creepy. Just plain creepy. I can't remember what the age requirement is for this game, but kids already play 18+ games. It could get real dark, real quickly. Would be a shame if Ashes got a reputation for being the paedo's game of choice.


    Just... never go in goldshire inn in mooguard-US / argent dawn -EU
    Never go in some many FFXIV houses (mainly in balmung but not only)

    It will be hard to reach such things.
    And i would never trust anyone saying me "yes yes all player in are 18+" nope i would never trust it
  • To be fair, it would SUCK to win a hard raid, get some rare materials from it, then have half of them stolen by "ambush" groups waiting for you to finish, just outside the raid.



  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    To be fair, it would SUCK to win a hard raid, get some rare materials from it, then have half of them stolen by "ambush" groups waiting for you to finish, just outside the raid.

    That's one of the risks in Verra. It's also a risk the ambushers are taking with the corruption system. If I were that raid leader, I would build 'getting home' into the raid, so that the raid isn't over until the group is back in town "safely".

    AoC+Dwarf+750.jpg
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    CROW3 wrote: »
    To be fair, it would SUCK to win a hard raid, get some rare materials from it, then have half of them stolen by "ambush" groups waiting for you to finish, just outside the raid.

    That's one of the risks in Verra. It's also a risk the ambushers are taking with the corruption system. If I were that raid leader, I would build 'getting home' into the raid, so that the raid isn't over until the group is back in town "safely".

    I mean, is it? A bit of Corruption in trade of some BiS mats isn't much of a risk IMO
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Maezriel wrote: »
    I mean, is it? A bit of Corruption in trade of some BiS mats isn't much of a risk IMO

    Yes. You just did a risk / reward analysis. That doesn't mean it's not a risk. That risk would also be increased if the party you think you're going to ambush is still in a raid mindset, completely buffed, and organized.

    AoC+Dwarf+750.jpg
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited July 20
    No guarantee you'll get BiS mats from that kill.
  • EyskalEyskal Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 20
    No unknown streamers will ever farm in this game. lol they aint got enough backup following.
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Maezriel wrote: »
    I mean, is it? A bit of Corruption in trade of some BiS mats isn't much of a risk IMO

    Yes. You just did a risk / reward analysis. That doesn't mean it's not a risk. That risk would also be increased if the party you think you're going to ambush is still in a raid mindset, completely buffed, and organized.

    No one coming out of a raid is going to be completely buffed and organized, you got people who died got people low on health/mana from fighting out of the raid area, and as for risk v reward there should be some sense of balance and the reward for jumping a raid for mats is FAR greater than the risk b/c it's unlikely that the raid is going to be carrying around a low level just to ensure you get a big chunk of Corruption.
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • And the group who've just cleared the raid are good enough to clear the raid, so they're unlikely to drop easily. Just cos the ambush group are going to ambush them, doesn't mean they're going to win.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Maezriel wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Maezriel wrote: »
    I mean, is it? A bit of Corruption in trade of some BiS mats isn't much of a risk IMO

    Yes. You just did a risk / reward analysis. That doesn't mean it's not a risk. That risk would also be increased if the party you think you're going to ambush is still in a raid mindset, completely buffed, and organized.

    No one coming out of a raid is going to be completely buffed and organized, you got people who died got people low on health/mana from fighting out of the raid area, and as for risk v reward there should be some sense of balance and the reward for jumping a raid for mats is FAR greater than the risk b/c it's unlikely that the raid is going to be carrying around a low level just to ensure you get a big chunk of Corruption.

    I'm all for the risk portion of raiding in Ashes being in the trip from the encounter back home. To me, this is the most logical way to have instanced raiding in a game like Ashes.

    The way I see it, give the raid a set amount of time once the encounter is killed (time to resurect, heal and rebuff), and perhaps three or four different exit points to take, and give them a time limit that they need to get the rewards back home.

    To me, this could (should) be similar to the Leviathan in Archeage. You get some rewards for the kill, but the major reward is when you take the head back to a specific location. Others can attempt to take the head off you and take it to where they get the reward rather than where you do.

    This turns an instanced raid kill in Ashes in to a potential server wide game similar to capture the flag.

    To me, that has the potential to make instanced raiding one of the most directly competitive content types in Ashes.
  • KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    To be fair, it would SUCK to win a hard raid, get some rare materials from it, then have half of them stolen by "ambush" groups waiting for you to finish, just outside the raid.




    This is a risk that I fully expect and am trying to find the balance between forcing that risk (which we should all want) and limiting the amount of time wasted so that this time can be enjoyable. When I play any game I look at a few key things and one of them is "does this add to the games value or is this purely a time sink to keep me playing". After this many years of gaming, I luckily am able to stop myself from the addiction of a shit MMO when I see the signs (not saying AoC is headed in this direction in any way so far because it isn't).

    @Noaani I actually really like that idea. Also being a tank, this would add another level of depth if tanks were to be the top choice to carry the head.
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    Maezriel wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Maezriel wrote: »
    I mean, is it? A bit of Corruption in trade of some BiS mats isn't much of a risk IMO

    Yes. You just did a risk / reward analysis. That doesn't mean it's not a risk. That risk would also be increased if the party you think you're going to ambush is still in a raid mindset, completely buffed, and organized.

    No one coming out of a raid is going to be completely buffed and organized, you got people who died got people low on health/mana from fighting out of the raid area, and as for risk v reward there should be some sense of balance and the reward for jumping a raid for mats is FAR greater than the risk b/c it's unlikely that the raid is going to be carrying around a low level just to ensure you get a big chunk of Corruption.

    I'm all for the risk portion of raiding in Ashes being in the trip from the encounter back home. To me, this is the most logical way to have instanced raiding in a game like Ashes.

    The way I see it, give the raid a set amount of time once the encounter is killed (time to resurect, heal and rebuff), and perhaps three or four different exit points to take, and give them a time limit that they need to get the rewards back home.

    To me, this could (should) be similar to the Leviathan in Archeage. You get some rewards for the kill, but the major reward is when you take the head back to a specific location. Others can attempt to take the head off you and take it to where they get the reward rather than where you do.

    This turns an instanced raid kill in Ashes in to a potential server wide game similar to capture the flag.

    To me, that has the potential to make instanced raiding one of the most directly competitive content types in Ashes.

    Honestly I'd rather see those who are participating in the raid (open or instanced) get a buff that last for X amount of time (maybe an hour or so?) that makes them immune to death penalties so that you can concentrate on the raid itself.

    If raids in Ashes are meant to be hard the last thing you should have to do after a battle is fight all the way back against fresh people...There's limits to the level of "risk" that's actually fun in a game and having a gauntlet on the way, during, and after a raid just sounds exhausting.
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Maezriel I agree. We all want to enjoy this game but also have something that is difficult and rewarding for the risks we decide to take. There is a fine line between fun and exhausting imo. This game will not succeed without the subscription numbers to support it.

    I do think the risk should be there before, during and after the raid but my main issue was the amount of time I am going to have to waste on travel while organizing a group and keeping them entertained and engaged. I'm not sure if people have even explored the idea of not doing content on the other side of the world because it is simply too far. Would all raids end up dropping the same gear (which would be pretty shitty content at that point if we can simply farm the same raid instead of needing to do several). organize the raid for 15-20 minutes, head out of town (2-5 minutes because of city size), run to the shore and get into the ship (will there still be a ferry to take?), traverse the water, travel on land to the dungeon....I mean how much time has passed just to start the content?

    If it's taking 30 minutes to get to a dungeon and 30 minutes to get back.....this isn't a risk vs reward issue, this is my game turning into a part time job where I commute and don't get paid for it. This doesn't sit well with me.

    On the flip side (because I do honestly try to see the blessings in every curse), this could open up for the potential to focus on sieging the enemy instead of raiding the content thus allowing the opportunities for nodes to evolve closer to you.

    A final thought, the direction seems to be heading to a place where PvE is going to be real bad in AoC and require minimal skill if there is no player to counter you. Quick mindless boss fights just to keep the materials flowing and an atmosphere that is heavily weighted on sieges, caravans, and PvP. I hope I am wrong here. I want the PvP in Ashes very much but I also want to enjoy organizing the guild, exploring difficult boss fights, min/maxing with the group and actual progression.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Maezriel wrote: »
    If raids in Ashes are meant to be hard the last thing you should have to do after a battle is fight all the way back against fresh people...There's limits to the level of "risk" that's actually fun in a game and having a gauntlet on the way, during, and after a raid just sounds exhausting.
    Something to keep in mind with this - it is extremely unlikely in Ashes that any raids that may he instanced would be multi-encounter.

    The exhaustion after a raid is due to the time spent in the zone, not just the last encounter.

    Also, since there should be multiple directions to leave the instance, and each guild would have multiple places they could take the reward to, it isnt as much about fighting your way back as it is making your way back.

    Instanced raids in Ashes simply wont happen without some means of PvP being added to the mix. Since that PvP cant happen during the encounter (obviously), there needs to be some added risk of PvP after the encounter.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    :D
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Maezriel wrote: »
    No one coming out of a raid is going to be completely buffed and organized...

    Honestly I'd rather see those who are participating in the raid (open or instanced) get a buff that last for X amount of time (maybe an hour or so?) that makes them immune to death penalties…

    If raids in Ashes are meant to be hard the last thing you should have to do after a battle is fight all the way back against fresh people...

    It’s just going to be a different model. Raiding is going to be challenging. The raid starts when you leave town, the raid ends when the party is back safely. Adjust accordingly.

    If that’s asking too much of you, that’s ok.
    AoC+Dwarf+750.jpg
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Maezriel wrote: »
    No one coming out of a raid is going to be completely buffed and organized...

    Honestly I'd rather see those who are participating in the raid (open or instanced) get a buff that last for X amount of time (maybe an hour or so?) that makes them immune to death penalties…

    If raids in Ashes are meant to be hard the last thing you should have to do after a battle is fight all the way back against fresh people...

    It’s just going to be a different model. Raiding is going to be challenging. The raid starts when you leave town, the raid ends when the party is back safely. Adjust accordingly.

    If that’s asking too much of you, that’s ok.

    "If thAt’s AskIng tOO mUch Of yOU, thAt’s Ok"

    C'mon man what an insulting and lazy non-argument that far too many people here fall back on.

    I'm not saying we should get teleported in and out, but that if the raid is the focus let the raid be the focus just like it is for Caravans and Sieges. Plenty of time to PvP on the way to the raid to shave away at other guild's buffs and to fight at the raid over who gets the loot but once the battle is done it should be done.

    We've all heard Steven's story of fighting over an objective for over 24 hours...we know that's the kind of game he's looking to make. So lets assume Raids won't be loot piñatas and will take a good chunk of time for the boss to die. Under that circumstance, kindly explain how fighting all the way to a raid and then getting hunted half way across the map until you're home isn't a system that sounds more fun on paper than practice.

    Also think of the balance aspect, if all I have to do in order to get the mats that dropped from the boss is wait and gank the guy holding them then there's WAY more risk on the victors than will ever be on the guy getting a bit of Corruption.
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Maezriel wrote: »
    if the raid is the focus let the raid be the focus.
    The raid isn't the focus.

    The PvP is.

    As a raider myself, that is simply the reality of Ashes.

    Ashes claims to be a PvX game, but no one has defined what PvX means - so the notion needs to be dismissed until it is defined.

    If we then look at everything we know of in Ashes, every aspect of the game is subject to PvP. As such, if instanced raiding is to be a thing, there needs to be a factor of it that is directly subject to PvP. Without that aspect, instanced raiding simply won't exist.

    So, the conclusion here is - the raid is not the focus, the PvP is.
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    Maezriel wrote: »
    if the raid is the focus let the raid be the focus.
    The raid isn't the focus.

    The PvP is.

    As a raider myself, that is simply the reality of Ashes.

    Ashes claims to be a PvX game, but no one has defined what PvX means - so the notion needs to be dismissed until it is defined.

    If we then look at everything we know of in Ashes, every aspect of the game is subject to PvP. As such, if instanced raiding is to be a thing, there needs to be a factor of it that is directly subject to PvP. Without that aspect, instanced raiding simply won't exist.

    So, the conclusion here is - the raid is not the focus, the PvP is.

    Which is why my question for the Q&A will be asking for an official answer on whether or not Death Penalties will be applied to raids and city attack events so we can finally know once and for all.

    I know all too well that you're aware that if PvP is the focus in a raid that the bosses will just turn into piñatas.
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited July 22
    Maezriel wrote: »
    I know all too well that you're aware that if PvP is the focus in a raid that the bosses will just turn into piñatas.
    Yeah, for sure.

    That's why I want instanced raids - as you know. Thing is, instancing them takes that PvP away (which is the point). This allows the raids themselves to be harder, but that PvP component still needs to be put back in somewhere - at least in Ashes it does.

    To me, the above is the best solution I have seen. It is not the only method, just the best that I have seen active in a game (even though the implementation in question wasn't on instanced content).

    I'm actually for them introducing a variety of ways to add PvP back in to the mix in regards to instanced content - not just the one above.

    The key point is - all content in Ashes will need to be subject to PvP in some manner, so raiders will need an entirely different mindset in Ashes (assuming the game even supports raiders at all).
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Maezriel wrote: »
    "If thAt’s AskIng tOO mUch Of yOU, thAt’s Ok"

    C'mon man what an insulting and lazy non-argument that far too many people here fall back on.

    It IS a non-argument, cause there’s no argument there. It’s your choice and I’m not interested in making your choices for you. If you find that insulting or lazy, ok - those are your bags to carry.
    Maezriel wrote: »
    kindly explain how fighting all the way to a raid and then getting hunted half way across the map until you're home isn't a system that sounds more fun on paper…

    Also think of the balance aspect, if all I have to do in order to get the mats that dropped from the boss is wait and gank the guy holding them then there's WAY more risk on the victors than will ever be on the guy getting a bit of Corruption.

    Well, I’ve known for years that this is the system Intrepid is creating, I’m paying money to play in that system, and going to log in and play that system with eyes wide open. I’m not going to accidentally discover that raids or exploration or gathering is going to have some risk (sometimes higher, sometimes lower) just by setting foot in the world.

    So, again - plan, prepare, and play accordingly.

    AoC+Dwarf+750.jpg
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Maezriel wrote: »
    "If thAt’s AskIng tOO mUch Of yOU, thAt’s Ok"

    C'mon man what an insulting and lazy non-argument that far too many people here fall back on.

    It IS a non-argument, cause there’s no argument there. It’s your choice and I’m not interested in making your choices for you. If you find that insulting or lazy, ok - those are your bags to carry.
    Maezriel wrote: »
    kindly explain how fighting all the way to a raid and then getting hunted half way across the map until you're home isn't a system that sounds more fun on paper…

    Also think of the balance aspect, if all I have to do in order to get the mats that dropped from the boss is wait and gank the guy holding them then there's WAY more risk on the victors than will ever be on the guy getting a bit of Corruption.

    Well, I’ve known for years that this is the system Intrepid is creating, I’m paying money to play in that system, and going to log in and play that system with eyes wide open. I’m not going to accidentally discover that raids or exploration or gathering is going to have some risk (sometimes higher, sometimes lower) just by setting foot in the world.

    So, again - plan, prepare, and play accordingly.

    Caravans and Sieges have been part of development for years and yet plenty aren't aware that death penalties don't apply to them b/c the risk and reward are based on their objectives not on the punishment of death.

    There's absolutely nothing stating that the same can't or won't be done for PvE raids.

    It's not like I'm demanding flying mounts for everyone, my argument is very much rooted in exactly the systems and goals Intrepid already has built out.
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    edited July 22
    Maezriel wrote: »
    Caravans and Sieges have been part of development for years and yet plenty aren't aware that death penalties don't apply to them b/c the risk and reward are based on their objectives not on the punishment of death.

    There's absolutely nothing stating that the same can't or won't be done for PvE raids.

    From the Ashes wiki (go down to the 'Open World' sub-section):
    There will be open world dungeons and raids. The aspiration is to maintain the open world feel while being able to capitalize on the benefits of instanced mechanics.[48]

    - Instancing is only going to happen in certain dungeons where the desire is to have greater narrative appeal. Outside of these and arenas there will not be too much instancing anywhere else.[47]
    - There will be an 80/20 split between open world vs instanced encounters.[46][49][50]
    - There is no instancing in Alpha-1.[51]

    "We're probably going to do instancing only in certain dungeons and in arenas. You probably won't see instancing too much anywhere else. What you see is gonna be what you get.[47]" – Jeffrey Bard

    The PvP flagging system presents an opportunity for open conflict.[52]

    I know you want to be safe from PvP as a raider, but that's explicitly not a thing in Ashes.

    AoC+Dwarf+750.jpg
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Maezriel wrote: »
    Caravans and Sieges have been part of development for years and yet plenty aren't aware that death penalties don't apply to them b/c the risk and reward are based on their objectives not on the punishment of death.

    There's absolutely nothing stating that the same can't or won't be done for PvE raids.

    From the Ashes wiki (go down to the 'Open World' sub-section):
    There will be open world dungeons and raids. The aspiration is to maintain the open world feel while being able to capitalize on the benefits of instanced mechanics.[48]

    - Instancing is only going to happen in certain dungeons where the desire is to have greater narrative appeal. Outside of these and arenas there will not be too much instancing anywhere else.[47]
    - There will be an 80/20 split between open world vs instanced encounters.[46][49][50]
    - There is no instancing in Alpha-1.[51]

    "We're probably going to do instancing only in certain dungeons and in arenas. You probably won't see instancing too much anywhere else. What you see is gonna be what you get.[47]" – Jeffrey Bard

    The PvP flagging system presents an opportunity for open conflict.[52]

    What you quoted has nothing to do w/ Death Penalties which is what I've been talking about. I'm fine w/ being flagged, fine w/ PvP, but I do not in anyway think Death Penalties should apply to Raids which includes dropping loot.

    The focus of the raid should be on being the last one standing against the boss and getting the 40% damage to loot it—not ganking someone for the BiS mats on their way back from the fight.
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
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