Max camera distance suggestion

Snekkers

In alpha one we have an option to zoom camera in game. This is bad cuz of two reasons. Firstly u lose a connection with ur character, u feel disconnected, but if u have it optional everyone will play on bigger zoom cuz it gives u advantage and that leads us to another issue. Max zoom allows you to check very deep corners without getting to danger, which is a big advantage for a player. I suggest to lock camera near max zoom-in to make more immersion and stop actions like that

ViBunja

Yeh, I agree with this. That advantage of zooming out removes danger. I think the balance should be around a third-person shooter where you can see your character, but you can't see more than your character see.

Teyloune

I've noticed something similar. Zooming in makes everything look better, because I'm closer to things, but playing like that puts you in a disadvantage when everyone plays in max-zoom, because of the advantage it gives, simply because it is an option.
I honestly liked the camera the most how it was in apoc.

Dygz

I prefer zoomed in rather than zoomed way out.

JustVine

Yeah, a lot of their texture work is probably going to go unappreciated due to their zoom being so pronounced. Maybe they will shrink it on release. I kind of hope so; the game looks too good to reward making it look bad on purpose with combat advantage.

Kionashi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHTWhIF5cqI&t=31s&ab_channel=AshesofCreation

man I'll never forget the first trailers.....and Im pretty sure the game now looks better than in this trailer... but with the camera so far you can't appreciate the details....third person camera needs to return!

CROW3

Uh... just zoom in. Why does this need to be a programmatic change?

Dygz

It's a little bit wonky in Alpha One.
There are times when I end up zoomed out way more than I want... but it's so trivial I don't even remember what causes that.
It's easy enough to zoom in and it stays like that most of the time.
A minor tweak to camera zoom would be nice. But, it's far from a deal breaker.

Vhaeyne

I play most games at near max zoom and/or increased FOV. I prefer as much situational awareness as possible so that myself and everyone I play with can be as effective as possible with the limited time we have to invest in games.

I could feasibly be calling to limit "min zoom" because I don't want to deal with other players purposely sabotaging themselves and their teammates by limiting their own situational awareness and thus their effectiveness. I see it as a selfish choice that can waste other players time for the sake of immersion.

I am not asking for that. Instead, I am just asking for a reasonably large amount of max zoom, like many other leading MMORPGs.

Some people are going to want to play the game zoomed out and others are not. As strongly as you may feel about limiting camera zoom. Many others prefer not to be forced to play with a limited prospective.

McShave

I enjoy playing my MMOs as zoomed-out as possible, since this is what I'm used to. I like to see as much as possible just so I know what's going on. When I'm zoomed in, i get a feeling of clostrophobia and I get easily confused, especially in large battles (boss fights or large group PvP). When I want to admire the details of something, I like the ability to zoom in and get a close up view of things, but not to stay like that all the time.

Enigmatic Sage

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I play most games at near max zoom and/or increased FOV. I prefer as much situational awareness as possible so that myself and everyone I play with can be as effective as possible with the limited time we have to invest in games.

I could feasibly be calling to limit "min zoom" because I don't want to deal with other players purposely sabotaging themselves and their teammates by limiting their own situational awareness and thus their effectiveness. I see it as a selfish choice that can waste other players time for the sake of immersion.

I am not asking for that. Instead, I am just asking for a reasonably large amount of max zoom, like many other leading MMORPGs.

Some people are going to want to play the game zoomed out and others are not. As strongly as you may feel about limiting camera zoom. Many others prefer not to be forced to play with a limited prospective.

I never really enjoyed the full zoom out personally. Some people go to the extreme and do the birds eye view making the game a 2D perspective which changes everything in the game play.

I for one prefer having that element of not being able to know who is exactly sneaking up behind you until you're like, oh shit! It's like have a virtual peripheral blindness while increasing immersive environmental ambient play.

Vhaeyne

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

I never really enjoyed the full zoom out personally. Some people go to the extreme and do the birds eye view making the game a 2D perspective which changes everything in the game play.

I for one prefer having that element of not being able to know who is exactly sneaking up behind you until you're like, oh shit! It's like have a virtual peripheral blindness while increasing immersive environmental ambient play.

Funny, you mention the 2D perspective. Shumps are one of my favorite game genres... Maybe that is why I enjoy it so much.

There is a really simple solution to peripheral blindness that no game devs seem to want to use. Allowing other entity models not to be rendered when they are both behind your character model and using sneak.

I don't care about immersion, but balancing sneaking to work with different perspectives should not be hard.

Enigmatic Sage

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

I never really enjoyed the full zoom out personally. Some people go to the extreme and do the birds eye view making the game a 2D perspective which changes everything in the game play.

I for one prefer having that element of not being able to know who is exactly sneaking up behind you until you're like, oh shit! It's like have a virtual peripheral blindness while increasing immersive environmental ambient play.

Funny, you mention the 2D perspective. Shumps are one of my favorite game genres... Maybe that is why I enjoy it so much.

There is a really simple solution to peripheral blindness that no game devs seem to want to use. Allowing other entity models not to be rendered when they are both behind your character model and using sneak.

I don't care about immersion, but balancing sneaking to work with different perspectives should not be hard.

The good old days, lol (current too)

That could be interesting. Probably be something where you would want to have a more fixed camera distance and position.
But then again, they could just not have it as the head doesn't really move in the game for "over the shoulder" viewing so they had to allow for a larger field of view allowance.

It's definitely interesting to think about, lol.

Enigmatic Sage

@Vhaeyne
oooh but you could have a cone/wedge starting at the shoulder blades, and depending on the angle of it, you can create a blind spot that acts like an invisibility shape that anything passed through it would just become transparent until out of the cone/wedge.

But on a free camera with zoom for an MMO, it would probably be better to have the effects based on a radial of the perimeter in accordance with a zoom distance allowance.

Enigmatic Sage

but then if they allow the camera to have a free look mode where it's not anchored behind the character, would you still want it based where the character is facing, or the camera.

Vhaeyne

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

@Vhaeyne
oooh but you could have a cone/wedge starting at the shoulder blades, and depending on the angle of it, you can create a blind spot that acts like an invisibility shape that anything passed through it would just become transparent until out of the cone/wedge.

That is sort of what I was thinking. Humans have a large FoV if you include peripheral vision. I think it's something like 200ish degrees. Slightly more than 180 degrees, for sure. Just using that sort of cone would work.

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

but then if they allow the camera to have a free look mode where it's not anchored behind the character, would you still want it based where the character is facing, or the camera.

This is actually close to an issue new players encounter in FFXIV all the time. When your character model is facing a "look away" mechanic, they think that looking away with the camera will work, and it doesn't. The character must be looking away.

You just have to learn to be mindful of where your character is looking. Or you can just click the right mouse button to align your character's view with the camera like most MMOs.

Enigmatic Sage

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

@Vhaeyne
oooh but you could have a cone/wedge starting at the shoulder blades, and depending on the angle of it, you can create a blind spot that acts like an invisibility shape that anything passed through it would just become transparent until out of the cone/wedge.

That is sort of what I was thinking. Humans have a large FoV if you include peripheral vision. I think it's something like 200ish degrees. Slightly more than 180 degrees, for sure. Just using that sort of cone would work.

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

but then if they allow the camera to have a free look mode where it's not anchored behind the character, would you still want it based where the character is facing, or the camera.

This is actually close to an issue new players encounter in FFXIV all the time. When your character model is facing a "look away" mechanic, they think that looking away with the camera will work, and it doesn't. The character must be looking away.

You just have to learn to be mindful of where your character is looking. Or you can just click the right mouse button to align your character's view with the camera like most MMOs.

Very interesting.
There is definitely lots of options it could evolve from different camera tech for game design.

Example:
scale of transparency ( fade to complete transparency depending what part of the pie they're in. Different zones, different transparency)
locked camera vs free camera
range and distance of camera

Oh, then you can get into class specials that could decrease their presence allowing them to be less visible in the more detectable pie sections of the radius.

JustVine

Yeah Vhaeyne's comments renforced in me my perception that a lot of Intrepid's texture work is going to go to waste.

Kinda sad but mostly because they assumedly spent a lot of money on it as its continued development. Why spend a lot of resources on graphics when half your population is going to zoom out as far as possible and another quarter is always going to say your game looks terrible anyway (partially as a result of streamers also using max zoom.)

I am grateful they did personally as the look and feel is largely why I am invested. But I am probably a minority.

Vhaeyne

JustVine wrote: »

Yeah Vhaeyne's comments renforced in me my perception that a lot of Intrepid's texture work is going to go to waste.

Kinda sad but mostly because they assumedly spent a lot of money on it as its continued development. Why spend a lot of resources on graphics when half your population is going to zoom out as far as possible and another quarter is always going to say your game looks terrible anyway (partially as a result of streamers also using max zoom.)

I am grateful they did personally as the look and feel is largely why I am invested. But I am probably a minority.

It's not a waste. I do zoom in for a second if I see something I like or need to see something up close.

Example: One time I walked up to a node and thought it was an elf node, but was not sure because elves and humans have the same silhouette in Ashes currently. I zoomed in to look at the ears of the guards and sure enough they had a slight point to them. It was an elf node, as I thought. I then zoomed out and went on my way.

I also zoom in when I get a new armor or just want to see something cool. When I am actually playing the game, I tend to hover around max zoom because situational awareness is vital in competitive arenas or high-end gameplay. It is going to be even more vital when we get out of these test phases and competitive people start to no life the game.

JustVine

Im glad you feel the resources are worth improving 1% of your experience. You never struck me as that kind of person.

Vhaeyne

JustVine wrote: »

Im glad you feel the resources are worth improving 1% of your experience. You never struck me as that kind of person.

If I am zoomed out 99% of the time, that does not mean having good textures improves only 1% of my experience. You can still see the difference between bad textures and good textures at a distance.

Being zoomed out 99% of the time means I can only see the full detail, the 1% of the time I am actually zooming in to focus on details. The 1% of the time the detail is most important.

I also don't advocate for changes that only improve my personal experience. I normally seek compromise unless someone is calling for a change that is really silly or goes against core gameplay pillars. This is something I have already done in this thread.

szelesbt

I like to play with super zoomed out camera when fighting and and zoomed in when questing, traveling or im in towns.
Im coming from a RTS, MOBA background so thats why i like that perspective when things happen. In a fight i want more information and i like the MOBA like aim vs the FPS one. But when the gameplay is calmed down i like the extra immersion from the zoomed in camera.

So i would like to get both option in the game.

Happymeal2415

I think the zoom should lean towards the closer side. In a game like this where people will be ambushing caravans etc. you should have to be aware of your surroundings by having players on watch or scouting etc. Having a view of your character from essentially the top of a small mountain really negates any of this.

Happymeal2415

Example:
scale of transparency ( fade to complete transparency depending what part of the pie they're in. Different zones, different transparency)


I would like to see something like this incorporated into stealth mechanics. No more complete invisibility standing in the middle of a lit road

Snekkers

i definitly agree that some players like to play with max zoom-out but that gives u those advantages and without systems to make it equal, everybody will be forced to paly max zoomed-out cuz of battle awarness

mcstackerson

I also feel the same.

TomaszJaworski wrote: »

i definitly agree that some players like to play with max zoom-out but that gives u those advantages and without systems to make it equal, everybody will be forced to paly max zoomed-out cuz of battle awarness

This is how i feel. I'd prefer cam distance restrained.

Denahi

Whilst I do recognize that some players wants to play max zoomed out, it really does give them an advantage over players who don't. And as someone mentioned before the aspect of sneaking up on someone, setting an ambush for a caravan etc, those elements are far more difficult if not impossible to carry out unless you're a rogue, you'd see anyone coming from a mile away, this includes bounty hunters as well, if a corrupted player has zoomed maxed out, they'd be able to spot any bounty hunters a mile away and just mount up. I definetly would have preferred, as others in this thread, that zooming out would be more limited than it is now. As it does ruin these aspects of the game

Dygz

If the devs determine from testing that zoomed out camera gives too much advantage during caravan attacks, they will nerf the camera zoom out.

TeamVASH

TomaszJaworski wrote: »

In alpha one we have an option to zoom camera in game. This is bad cuz of two reasons. Firstly u lose a connection with ur character, u feel disconnected, but if u have it optional everyone will play on bigger zoom cuz it gives u advantage and that leads us to another issue. Max zoom allows you to check very deep corners without getting to danger, which is a big advantage for a player. I suggest to lock camera near max zoom-in to make more immersion and stop actions like that

I agree 100%, I discussed this in my video "The Most Important Video I'll Ever Make" and mentioned the same points you did. I really hope they listen to this.

CROW3

TeamVASH wrote: »

I agree 100%, I discussed this in my video "The Most Important Video I'll Ever Make" and mentioned the same points you did. I really hope they listen to this.

If you feel disconnect then you can zoom in. If you feel cosmetics are the most important aspect of being zoomed in, then you can zoom in.

Watched your video and you make your opinions clear (some I agree with and some I don't), but just my 2 cents on your argumentation. If you frame your opinions such that 'real mmo players' will agree with you, otherwise they're 'COD players,' you're creating an unnecessary division in a space that's already rife with a range of silly to serious tribalisms. Just state your opinion and be ok with your opinion being your opinion.

Guli

hell no, being super zoomed in is annoying