Noaani wrote: » Guli wrote: » JamesSunderland wrote: » The problem with RNG CC vs Non-RNG CC is because they require different types of balancing and how good they work in a game depends alot in the pace of the game and it's killtime, that being said RNG CC is a powerful nerf to the natural powerlevel of Hard-CCs and Hard-CC locks. But i will have to add that its not only: "if its guaranteed = skills matter more than RNG if its not (like it is now in alpha) = if you have bad luck you will die to the on who has better luck." But also: if its guaranteed = it's predictable and your next skill is guaranteed which makes Hard CC lock a thing (Not considering Instant CC removal or CC immunity skills) if its not = if you have bad luck you have to improvise on the fly, maybe use another CC right after? follow-up? Disengage? Reposition? Do you try to build more CC chance or more CC resist? all im trying to say tbh is the game will be less frustrating the less rng there is. Less frustrating I can agree with. But - if the game gives players the means to increase the chances of there CC's landing, that gives players an avenue to deal with that frustration. I mean, it's frustrating when I don't have good enough gear to kill a mob I want to kill. Rather than complaining about that, I go out and get better gear, then kill the mob. If CC's not landing is often a source of frustration to you, go out and get better gear to make your CC's land, or create a better build for that than what you have. Player frustration isn't something to be designed out of a game, it is something to give players a means to progress around.
Guli wrote: » JamesSunderland wrote: » The problem with RNG CC vs Non-RNG CC is because they require different types of balancing and how good they work in a game depends alot in the pace of the game and it's killtime, that being said RNG CC is a powerful nerf to the natural powerlevel of Hard-CCs and Hard-CC locks. But i will have to add that its not only: "if its guaranteed = skills matter more than RNG if its not (like it is now in alpha) = if you have bad luck you will die to the on who has better luck." But also: if its guaranteed = it's predictable and your next skill is guaranteed which makes Hard CC lock a thing (Not considering Instant CC removal or CC immunity skills) if its not = if you have bad luck you have to improvise on the fly, maybe use another CC right after? follow-up? Disengage? Reposition? Do you try to build more CC chance or more CC resist? all im trying to say tbh is the game will be less frustrating the less rng there is.
JamesSunderland wrote: » The problem with RNG CC vs Non-RNG CC is because they require different types of balancing and how good they work in a game depends alot in the pace of the game and it's killtime, that being said RNG CC is a powerful nerf to the natural powerlevel of Hard-CCs and Hard-CC locks. But i will have to add that its not only: "if its guaranteed = skills matter more than RNG if its not (like it is now in alpha) = if you have bad luck you will die to the on who has better luck." But also: if its guaranteed = it's predictable and your next skill is guaranteed which makes Hard CC lock a thing (Not considering Instant CC removal or CC immunity skills) if its not = if you have bad luck you have to improvise on the fly, maybe use another CC right after? follow-up? Disengage? Reposition? Do you try to build more CC chance or more CC resist?
Guli wrote: » all im trying to say tbh is the game will be less frustrating the less rng there is.
Noaani wrote: » JamesSunderland wrote: » The problem with RNG CC vs Non-RNG CC is because they require different types of balancing and how good they work in a game depends alot in the pace of the game and it's killtime, that being said RNG CC is a powerful nerf to the natural powerlevel of Hard-CCs and Hard-CC locks. But i will have to add that its not only: "if its guaranteed = skills matter more than RNG if its not (like it is now in alpha) = if you have bad luck you will die to the on who has better luck." But also: if its guaranteed = it's predictable and your next skill is guaranteed which makes Hard CC lock a thing (Not considering Instant CC removal or CC immunity skills) if its not = if you have bad luck you have to improvise on the fly, maybe use another CC right after? follow-up? Disengage? Reposition? Do you try to build more CC chance or more CC resist? I've never been a subscriber to the notion that removing RNG makes player skill matter more. The only way this is accurate is if you consider "player skill" and "player ability to memorize one specific combination of abilities and then reproduce that" to be synonymous with each other. As you state above, with an element of RNG in combat, players need to think, re-evaluate, calculate. Any one of these demonstrates more player skill than repeating an ability combination. Involving an element of RNG in to the game also means players are given more options on how to create a build than without it, as I have yet to come across an RNG element in an RPG's combat system that both the attacker and defender couldn't influence. Games with hit chance RNG allow players to increase their chance to hit, and to increase their chance to avoid. Games with crits allow players to increase their crit chance, and often the amount of additional damage a crit does. Players often also have the ability to increase their resistance to crit hits, both in terms of reducing the chance they will take one, and reducing the additional damage they do when the player does get hit by one. The same is often the case for CC. This added RNG doesn't reduce the need for player skill at all. What it does is it enhances the value of player skill in building their character (do I want a higher chance of my CC's landing, a higher chance of others CC's not landing on me, more CC's to cast, more CC breaks, etc). In terms of RPG's, character build is a key aspect of player skill (even if in some popular games it is expected that you just follow someone else's build). However, that RNG, coupled with that build strategy, combine to give the player options in combat. With no RNG, the "option" is to cast their CC on the target. Not a lot of player skill in that. With RNG, they have the option of casting their CC on their target, but then need to have a backup plan in mind for if that fails. How people can say the no RNG situation elevates player skill is beyond me.
JamesSunderland wrote: » Noaani wrote: » JamesSunderland wrote: » The problem with RNG CC vs Non-RNG CC is because they require different types of balancing and how good they work in a game depends alot in the pace of the game and it's killtime, that being said RNG CC is a powerful nerf to the natural powerlevel of Hard-CCs and Hard-CC locks. But i will have to add that its not only: "if its guaranteed = skills matter more than RNG if its not (like it is now in alpha) = if you have bad luck you will die to the on who has better luck." But also: if its guaranteed = it's predictable and your next skill is guaranteed which makes Hard CC lock a thing (Not considering Instant CC removal or CC immunity skills) if its not = if you have bad luck you have to improvise on the fly, maybe use another CC right after? follow-up? Disengage? Reposition? Do you try to build more CC chance or more CC resist? I've never been a subscriber to the notion that removing RNG makes player skill matter more. The only way this is accurate is if you consider "player skill" and "player ability to memorize one specific combination of abilities and then reproduce that" to be synonymous with each other. As you state above, with an element of RNG in combat, players need to think, re-evaluate, calculate. Any one of these demonstrates more player skill than repeating an ability combination. Involving an element of RNG in to the game also means players are given more options on how to create a build than without it, as I have yet to come across an RNG element in an RPG's combat system that both the attacker and defender couldn't influence. Games with hit chance RNG allow players to increase their chance to hit, and to increase their chance to avoid. Games with crits allow players to increase their crit chance, and often the amount of additional damage a crit does. Players often also have the ability to increase their resistance to crit hits, both in terms of reducing the chance they will take one, and reducing the additional damage they do when the player does get hit by one. The same is often the case for CC. This added RNG doesn't reduce the need for player skill at all. What it does is it enhances the value of player skill in building their character (do I want a higher chance of my CC's landing, a higher chance of others CC's not landing on me, more CC's to cast, more CC breaks, etc). In terms of RPG's, character build is a key aspect of player skill (even if in some popular games it is expected that you just follow someone else's build). However, that RNG, coupled with that build strategy, combine to give the player options in combat. With no RNG, the "option" is to cast their CC on the target. Not a lot of player skill in that. With RNG, they have the option of casting their CC on their target, but then need to have a backup plan in mind for if that fails. How people can say the no RNG situation elevates player skill is beyond me. This, you got it! RNG isn't a detriment to player skill at all, but a test for player adaptability and fast judgement to unpredictable possibilities and outcomes, aswell as properly building your character to improve your odds. No RNG in MMORPGS is just bland and predictable.
mcstackerson wrote: » it's not like being hit by an rng stun means you get to change up your whole playstyle.
JustVine wrote: » Noaani's 'solution' of 'get better gear/builds' won't get you to 100%. .
Noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » it's not like being hit by an rng stun means you get to change up your whole playstyle. I have never seen a PvP game with an RNG stun. Every game I have played has had specific player actions cause stuns. There is RNG in terms of whether it lands on you or not, but that is not the same thing as being hit by an RNG stun (it is simply being hit by a stun that another player specifically used on you). I would agree that RNG stuns would be a poor game design choice, but as I said, I have not seen them.
mcstackerson wrote: » wow
For the purposes of balance, certain skill types will be either tab or action oriented skills. For example:[29] Hard CCs may be housed in action oriented skills because they are skill shots that are more difficult to land.[29][26] Softer CC's would be housed in tab-targeted abilities.[29]
Caeryl wrote: » I could have sworn we were promised no targeted hard CC, as healthy as a CC system can get, so where is this discussion coming from?
truely wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » I could have sworn we were promised no targeted hard CC, as healthy as a CC system can get, so where is this discussion coming from? It exists in alpha 1 so not sure where you are getting your info from
truely wrote: » JamesSunderland wrote: » Noaani wrote: » JamesSunderland wrote: » The problem with RNG CC vs Non-RNG CC is because they require different types of balancing and how good they work in a game depends alot in the pace of the game and it's killtime, that being said RNG CC is a powerful nerf to the natural powerlevel of Hard-CCs and Hard-CC locks. But i will have to add that its not only: "if its guaranteed = skills matter more than RNG if its not (like it is now in alpha) = if you have bad luck you will die to the on who has better luck." But also: if its guaranteed = it's predictable and your next skill is guaranteed which makes Hard CC lock a thing (Not considering Instant CC removal or CC immunity skills) if its not = if you have bad luck you have to improvise on the fly, maybe use another CC right after? follow-up? Disengage? Reposition? Do you try to build more CC chance or more CC resist? I've never been a subscriber to the notion that removing RNG makes player skill matter more. The only way this is accurate is if you consider "player skill" and "player ability to memorize one specific combination of abilities and then reproduce that" to be synonymous with each other. As you state above, with an element of RNG in combat, players need to think, re-evaluate, calculate. Any one of these demonstrates more player skill than repeating an ability combination. Involving an element of RNG in to the game also means players are given more options on how to create a build than without it, as I have yet to come across an RNG element in an RPG's combat system that both the attacker and defender couldn't influence. Games with hit chance RNG allow players to increase their chance to hit, and to increase their chance to avoid. Games with crits allow players to increase their crit chance, and often the amount of additional damage a crit does. Players often also have the ability to increase their resistance to crit hits, both in terms of reducing the chance they will take one, and reducing the additional damage they do when the player does get hit by one. The same is often the case for CC. This added RNG doesn't reduce the need for player skill at all. What it does is it enhances the value of player skill in building their character (do I want a higher chance of my CC's landing, a higher chance of others CC's not landing on me, more CC's to cast, more CC breaks, etc). In terms of RPG's, character build is a key aspect of player skill (even if in some popular games it is expected that you just follow someone else's build). However, that RNG, coupled with that build strategy, combine to give the player options in combat. With no RNG, the "option" is to cast their CC on the target. Not a lot of player skill in that. With RNG, they have the option of casting their CC on their target, but then need to have a backup plan in mind for if that fails. How people can say the no RNG situation elevates player skill is beyond me. This, you got it! RNG isn't a detriment to player skill at all, but a test for player adaptability and fast judgement to unpredictable possibilities and outcomes, aswell as properly building your character to improve your odds. No RNG in MMORPGS is just bland and predictable. Got to disagree. If you go in and commit yourself to a Cc and it fails, you are left out of position through nothing but rng. The skilful gameplay is if the Cc Ed targets gets shielded/healed/ Cc break by ally or the target dodged the Cc
Noaani wrote: » truely wrote: » JamesSunderland wrote: » Noaani wrote: » JamesSunderland wrote: » The problem with RNG CC vs Non-RNG CC is because they require different types of balancing and how good they work in a game depends alot in the pace of the game and it's killtime, that being said RNG CC is a powerful nerf to the natural powerlevel of Hard-CCs and Hard-CC locks. But i will have to add that its not only: "if its guaranteed = skills matter more than RNG if its not (like it is now in alpha) = if you have bad luck you will die to the on who has better luck." But also: if its guaranteed = it's predictable and your next skill is guaranteed which makes Hard CC lock a thing (Not considering Instant CC removal or CC immunity skills) if its not = if you have bad luck you have to improvise on the fly, maybe use another CC right after? follow-up? Disengage? Reposition? Do you try to build more CC chance or more CC resist? I've never been a subscriber to the notion that removing RNG makes player skill matter more. The only way this is accurate is if you consider "player skill" and "player ability to memorize one specific combination of abilities and then reproduce that" to be synonymous with each other. As you state above, with an element of RNG in combat, players need to think, re-evaluate, calculate. Any one of these demonstrates more player skill than repeating an ability combination. Involving an element of RNG in to the game also means players are given more options on how to create a build than without it, as I have yet to come across an RNG element in an RPG's combat system that both the attacker and defender couldn't influence. Games with hit chance RNG allow players to increase their chance to hit, and to increase their chance to avoid. Games with crits allow players to increase their crit chance, and often the amount of additional damage a crit does. Players often also have the ability to increase their resistance to crit hits, both in terms of reducing the chance they will take one, and reducing the additional damage they do when the player does get hit by one. The same is often the case for CC. This added RNG doesn't reduce the need for player skill at all. What it does is it enhances the value of player skill in building their character (do I want a higher chance of my CC's landing, a higher chance of others CC's not landing on me, more CC's to cast, more CC breaks, etc). In terms of RPG's, character build is a key aspect of player skill (even if in some popular games it is expected that you just follow someone else's build). However, that RNG, coupled with that build strategy, combine to give the player options in combat. With no RNG, the "option" is to cast their CC on the target. Not a lot of player skill in that. With RNG, they have the option of casting their CC on their target, but then need to have a backup plan in mind for if that fails. How people can say the no RNG situation elevates player skill is beyond me. This, you got it! RNG isn't a detriment to player skill at all, but a test for player adaptability and fast judgement to unpredictable possibilities and outcomes, aswell as properly building your character to improve your odds. No RNG in MMORPGS is just bland and predictable. Got to disagree. If you go in and commit yourself to a Cc and it fails, you are left out of position through nothing but rng. The skilful gameplay is if the Cc Ed targets gets shielded/healed/ Cc break by ally or the target dodged the Cc If you are playing a game that has RNG for CC, dont do something stupid that would get you killed if your CC fails. The problem is in people playing games with RNG on CC playing those games as if they didnt have RNG on CC. If you play the game as it is in front of you, issues like that dont happen.
Noaani wrote: » truely wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » I could have sworn we were promised no targeted hard CC, as healthy as a CC system can get, so where is this discussion coming from? It exists in alpha 1 so not sure where you are getting your info from A thing existing in alpha does not mean it will end up in the game in that same form. Caeryl is right in that they did say that hard CC is more likely to be targeted and soft CC more likely to be tab target based.
