For the unfamiliar. Key elements of Rathalos as an opponent...
1. Breathes fireballs.
2. Charge-tramples you, but doesn't actually like staying on the ground much.
3. Big tail swing, can be poisonous
4. Hopping talon/claw attack, can be poisonous
5. Diving talon/claw attack, can be poisonous, can grab you
6. Diving charge attack.
7. Can obviously also just bite at you
Mechanics that are common when fighting monsters that one 'should' expect to be translated over from Monster Hunter, that players initiate or aim for:
1. The monster can be flinched by damage, usually to the head (a separate hurtbox)
2. The monster can be knocked over by damage to the feet (another separate hurtbox)
3. The monster can be brought down from flying using a flash attack (as long as it is facing the flash)
4. The monster can be staggered by enough damage to the tail eventually cutting it off (another separate hurtbox)
A Tab Target game could do some stuff here, certainly better than the long telegraphs it has, to be interesting. An Action Combat game... well, we know what that does, but an Action Combat MMO would probably not do it the same, because in Monster Hunter your goal is to never be hit, and that doesn't fit well into Action Combat MMOs because the enemy has to therefore hit really hard whenever it does.
But we're talking about Hybrid, which can get to the 50-50 mark, once you start considering the hitboxes and hurtboxes.
The formula is simple enough when converted to an MMO. The enemy's initial attack has a smaller windup, a big swing and attack arc, and a relatively long recovery. If you defend correctly, you get a chance to hit the opponent afterward. Certain attacks cause stagger if you don't block or dodge them, so that your chance to hit the opponent is much smaller. The result would be that you take damage, but not too much, and you get worn down because you're not doing much damage yourself. You know that if you do better you will get to do more damage, and if you do worse, you will die (healer's mana will run out, defensive abilities will have to be wasted early and not be there for big attacks, etc).
With just this, you could design a Rathalos fight in Ashes that played in Hybrid, was interesting, wasn't disproportionately about 'Tab Mechanics' or 'Action Mechanics', and was 16-player content. All without even caring about specifics of combos, light or heavy attacks, etc. (I'd write out the whole thing, but it would have all the intricacies in it, and be another long 'design document', so, uh... I'll break it up across posts as we discuss it)
For the unfamiliar. Key elements of Rathalos as an opponent...
1. Breathes fireballs.
2. Charge-tramples you, but doesn't actually like staying on the ground much.
3. Big tail swing, can be poisonous
4. Hopping talon/claw attack, can be poisonous
5. Diving talon/claw attack, can be poisonous, can grab you
6. Diving charge attack.
7. Can obviously also just bite at you
Mechanics that are common when fighting monsters that one 'should' expect to be translated over from Monster Hunter, that players initiate or aim for:
1. The monster can be flinched by damage, usually to the head (a separate hurtbox)
2. The monster can be knocked over by damage to the feet (another separate hurtbox)
3. The monster can be brought down from flying using a flash attack (as long as it is facing the flash)
4. The monster can be staggered by enough damage to the tail eventually cutting it off (another separate hurtbox)
A Tab Target game could do some stuff here, certainly better than the long telegraphs it has, to be interesting. An Action Combat game... well, we know what that does, but an Action Combat MMO would probably not do it the same, because in Monster Hunter your goal is to never be hit, and that doesn't fit well into Action Combat MMOs because the enemy has to therefore hit really hard whenever it does.
But we're talking about Hybrid, which can get to the 50-50 mark, once you start considering the hitboxes and hurtboxes.
The formula is simple enough when converted to an MMO. The enemy's initial attack has a smaller windup, a big swing and attack arc, and a relatively long recovery. If you defend correctly, you get a chance to hit the opponent afterward. Certain attacks cause stagger if you don't block or dodge them, so that your chance to hit the opponent is much smaller. The result would be that you take damage, but not too much, and you get worn down because you're not doing much damage yourself. You know that if you do better you will get to do more damage, and if you do worse, you will die (healer's mana will run out, defensive abilities will have to be wasted early and not be there for big attacks, etc).
With just this, you could design a Rathalos fight in Ashes that played in Hybrid, was interesting, wasn't disproportionately about 'Tab Mechanics' or 'Action Mechanics', and was 16-player content. All without even caring about specifics of combos, light or heavy attacks, etc. (I'd write out the whole thing, but it would have all the intricacies in it, and be another long 'design document', so, uh... I'll break it up across posts as we discuss it)
One thing you forgot to mention is the fact they can literally run away, which some find tedious, but it definitely makes finding and killing them all that much sweeter. If world bosses had certain positions that were there 'roosts', I think that would make general gameplay way more entertaining.
A great video I wanted to share regarding Tab Targeting and Action Combat for anyone interested. Split Body and Root Motion melee combat are not related to these systems, but visual differences of games using them are noticeable during gameplay footage of the system that is being explained. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sIgCD1f5x0&ab_channel=nerdSlayerStudios
A great video I wanted to share regarding Tab Targeting and Action Combat for anyone interested. Split Body and Root Motion melee combat are not related to these systems, but visual differences of games using them are noticeable during gameplay footage of the system that is being explained. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sIgCD1f5x0&ab_channel=nerdSlayerStudios
One of the best videos on the topic, very precise and insightful.
A great video I wanted to share regarding Tab Targeting and Action Combat for anyone interested. Split Body and Root Motion melee combat are not related to these systems, but visual differences of games using them are noticeable during gameplay footage of the system that is being explained. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sIgCD1f5x0&ab_channel=nerdSlayerStudios
Thanks @Ugoogee, this is the perfect primer for anyone who hasn't had all of the game experiences or doesn't know the games being referenced.
It also lets us skip some parts of discussion.
Things that could be added to Tab Target to make it more like Action without upsetting much:
Active Block
Dodge/Block followed by positional/status reaction to the situation
Some facing requirements, and/or strict-ish distance requirements on abilities
Things that could be added to Action Combat to make it more Tab without upsetting much:
Soft lock/Sticky Reticle targeting
Timing based strategy and 'more situations where the player is expected to take some damage'
Stat dependent Evasion and Accuracy that is assistive/secondary to the player's skill
People may not like these on principle, but we know these can be done because they've been done before in multiple games. Ashes can have all these. Ashes already has some.
If we apply just these to our 'Rathalos'...
Assume a 16 man encounter, 2x of each Archetype (actual full classes vary and we may discuss multiple options). For convenience we'll imagine that one group plays Tab Target mainly/only and the other plays in Action mode mainly/only.
One tank stands in front of the monster, another under its body near the feet. The TT Ranger stands near/behind the front tank, the AC Ranger is off to the left side. Other positions don't matter as much for now, just the positions of these four are enough to explain this part, though you can also go ahead and assume that the Rogues are both behind the monster.
The Tanks intend to keep the monster from using its charge attack to run off. To keep it still, like one would in most Tab Target games. When 'Feet Tank' has its attention, it uses poison talon strikes on them, the Healer handles this. When 'Face Tank' has its attention, it uses fireballs or bites.
Face Tank can block, or even sidestep dodge the Fireball sometimes (Free Motion vs Rooted Motion doesn't matter here, the width of the fireball AoE is tuned to whatever, no ground telegraph is required if the fireball isn't super hard hitting, you'll learn it fast since it is focused on Face Tank). Then quickly get back into position so the rangers don't have to move, but either can. AC Ranger has a good shot at the head hurtbox whenever Fireball is happening. TT Ranger gets to shoot at 'head' only when it bites and for a short time when Fireball is done, since the projectile still travels even if Tab Target is on, so head would have to be 'down', but they can shoot more often and just help with damage.
Since they are a TT player, this is fine with them. AC Ranger probably doesn't mind 'not moving' either, because they're constantly adjusting their aim for where the head is (let's assume their chance of Blind Shot working goes up if they hit the head).
Face Tank can interrupt the Fireball outright instead, if they want to, by Action Targeting the head when it rears up to 'inhale' with Javelin, reducing total damage done and coordinating with TT Ranger's Blind Shot, especially if AC Ranger missed somehow. So sometimes the action aspect of their play isn't 'Move out of the way' of Fireball, it's 'Respond'. TT Ranger doesn't need to be told this. If Fireball is happening and Face Tank isn't dodging, it's probably because they're going to Javelin.
If Javelin misses, they take damage, and lose hate, and it somehow goes to AC Ranger, the monster will either try to Fireball over there, or use a running charge, maybe dependent on distance. AC Ranger could 'notice that FaceTank got hit and run closer to prevent the charge, but it might charge anyway. Assuming they 'do it right' and it goes for Fireball instead, they just dodge that to buy time for some other tank interaction. FaceTank missed their Javelin so they can't try to interrupt this Fireball, so now they have to get it back on them (we'll assume they were using Spear to let them stand further away from the body to do this all in the first place).
In the basic moment to moment stuff, whenever the Tank correctly blocks a bite, or a talon attack, the monster stays in a vulnerable position long enough for a few attacks. In either system a 'melee combo' is available. WASD Root Motion allows them to do these things from further away due to having a lunge, but that's easily achieved by higher natural ground mobility, e.g. Neverwinter (more ground mobility means that the AoE for the fireball has to be bigger, though).
If the Rogues do enough damage to get the attention instead, the monster doesn't necessarily turn around, immediately, it just readies a tail swing which they can dodge. Either Tank can respond by using an ability for threat to prevent it from turning after the Tail Swing, or the Rogues can take the damage and use their own 'drop some threat' ability, depending on their flow and the healers.
This is what I think of when I think 'mob behaviour' in Ashes, and this is 'the absolute basic mechanics of this battle before actual interesting things start to happen'.
That's a pretty good video for the most part. But his bias is instantly shown when he says "we still find ourselves held hostage by the tab target combat system." Aint no one being held hostage brother unless voluntarily. Both action and tab have their merits and are the better choice for individual games on a per case basis, and tab or tab enhanced will still be desired by some people even though tech is catching up to allow more action. No ones forcing you to play anything, break your chains, free yourself homie. You don't have to go to every single game and try to fundamentally change it to what you want, just play the games that ARE what you want and let other people do the same.
But I thought the analysis was pretty good, fair and thoughtful other than a couple things.
"Tab target games usually lack friendly fire, so are pro-zerg."
Like what. I cant think of many mmo's that even have friendly fire period. Mortal Online 1, Darkfall maybe, I played both, can't remember. Maybe there's some out there, really don't know. But my god does that sound horrible, the amount of griefing and trolling friendly fire in an mmo would cause. I am hugely anti zerg, anti murderball meta. That topic is the one and only topic I have started on this forum. There's all kinds of ways to fix that meta, friendly fire aint it for most games. For all the good analysis in the video, it's like his brain clicked off for that one.
"Due to the game being more knowledge dependent, a meta develops that can make prohibit variety."
You can't have it both ways. You already acknowledged that tab target games inherently have more variety in builds and classes previously in the video. There's always going to be a meta and overperforming/underperforming builds/classes. Same for action games. Look at New World, the vast majority of people we're running great axe/hammer. That's the job of the devs of a game to balance their shit, not a fault of tab.
"Being the most popular combat system means the market starts to get stale after awhile."
Well then we can assume the same thing would happen if action was the most popular combat system? Or is action divinely inspired and blessed by God himself. How many clips of 12 year olds hitting sick flick shots in Fortnite do you think I had to see before it got stale to me? Or clips of people lighting up like a disco ball in BDO zig zag dashing around and landing a shot on someone else who's also lit up like a disco ball zig zagging around. It all has the potential to get stale, action and tab included.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Okeydoke He says "held hostage" by the tab target system because there are almost no good action mmos. The 3 he lists are BDO, Vindictus, and Tera. The first two of those I actually like, but one is a PvP only game and the other is a dead game. So yes, we're held hostage by tab target because that's all there is on the market to be honest. MMOs come SOOOOOO far apart and good ones? Forget about it, you see one good one per decade it seems. That's part of why I, and others, are so passionate about getting a good representation of action in Ashes of Creation. It's all we've got really. And sure it's going to be hybrid but with a lot of what's in the OP on this thread we can have a system that'll feel good for us action players who really want a good MMO to play but can't stomach the combat of WoW, FF14, etc.
That's a pretty good video for the most part. But his bias is instantly shown when he says "we still find ourselves held hostage by the tab target combat system." Aint no one being held hostage brother unless voluntarily. Both action and tab have their merits and are the better choice for individual games on a per case basis, and tab or tab enhanced will still be desired by some people even though tech is catching up to allow more action. No ones forcing you to play anything, break your chains, free yourself homie. You don't have to go to every single game and try to fundamentally change it to what you want, just play the games that ARE what you want and let other people do the same.
But I thought the analysis was pretty good, fair and thoughtful other than a couple things.
"Tab target games usually lack friendly fire, so are pro-zerg."
Like what. I cant think of many mmo's that even have friendly fire period. Mortal Online 1, Darkfall maybe, I played both, can't remember. Maybe there's some out there, really don't know. But my god does that sound horrible, the amount of griefing and trolling friendly fire in an mmo would cause. I am hugely anti zerg, anti murderball meta. That topic is the one and only topic I have started on this forum. There's all kinds of ways to fix that meta, friendly fire aint it for most games. For all the good analysis in the video, it's like his brain clicked off for that one.
"Due to the game being more knowledge dependent, a meta develops that can make prohibit variety."
You can't have it both ways. You already acknowledged that tab target games inherently have more variety in builds and classes previously in the video. There's always going to be a meta and overperforming/underperforming builds/classes. Same for action games. Look at New World, the vast majority of people we're running great axe/hammer. That's the job of the devs of a game to balance their shit, not a fault of tab.
"Being the most popular combat system means the market starts to get stale after awhile."
Well then we can assume the same thing would happen if action was the most popular combat system? Or is action divinely inspired and blessed by God himself. How many clips of 12 year olds hitting sick flick shots in Fortnite do you think I had to see before it got stale to me? Or clips of people lighting up like a disco ball in BDO zig zag dashing around and landing a shot on someone else who's also lit up like a disco ball zig zagging around. It all has the potential to get stale, action and tab included.
Bias or not, there's no need to defend it or critique it, really. We're not trying to use it to declare something that must be. Your response of 'just play the game type that suits you', I will assume was at the video's creator.
Ashes said Hybrid was a thing, people got interested, now we're discussing what would be acceptable to all.
So, since no one is trying to hold anyone hostage here, wanna add the "Mage" part of a boss fight for us?
After 70+ hours of leveling, 50 more hours of running small time dungeons, all of the trials and tribulations, the mage has finally made it to end game. THE 40 MAN RAID. ITS GO TIME.
The mage stands on top of 12 other mages and presses tab. It tabs to an add. Presses tab again, gotttt em, boss targeted. frost bolt frost bolt frost bolt frost bolt frost bolt frost bolt frost bolt
The mage stands on top of 12 other mages and presses tab. It tabs to an add. Presses tab again, gotttt em, boss targeted. frost bolt frost bolt frost bolt frost bolt frost bolt frost bolt frost bolt
lol I like that gif. It's not bait though, I'm serious. I played Tera and BDO, not Vindictus.
But I've played Darkfall, and there's been 3 or so separate games in that series. I played Mortal Online 1, and now there's a Mortal Online 2. I played Crowfall, talk about absolutely garbage action combat. I played Atlas, pretty sure that's action but yeah more mmo/survival, and there's Ark: Survival Evolved or whatever. It get's nitty gritty and depends on how you define things...but other games I see in this "action mmo" list are Lost Ark, Revelation Online, Gloria Victis, Neverwinter, Blade and Soul. If you include hybrid there's ESO and Wildstar. I'm not listing all this, there's more.
Edit: Bless Online/Unleashed
lol new world
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
When I look up a list of action mmos it's a lot longer than those 3 you listed Cypher. And it get's even longer if you include hybrid mmos.
I mean just based on your list of 3 action mmos, I've played way more action mmos than you.
That's not *my* list. I said those were the 3 action games the video creator listed. Not sure what list of action mmos you're looking up but when I do a google search for that exact term I get a list that includes purely tab target mmos. Now then, in addition to the 3 the video mentioned, I also tried ESO, PSO2, Blade and Soul, and I'm sure others that I'm not remembering.
Of those 6, I've enjoyed BDO, Vindictus and PSO2. But BDO is basically PvP only as I said, Vindictus is pretty much dead, and PSO2 is a shell of what PSU was. I'm just not a fan of it. It's also stupidly easy no matter what difficulty of boss you do.
EDIT: Okay you have a seriously LOOSE definition of what an MMO is. I guess we should have been specifying MMORPG because then surely you wouldn't have said Ark Survival Evolved...
Also, Lost Ark is an isometric ARPG aka Diablo.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Bless Unleashed isn't good, I've already played it in beta and it was so hollow to me that I forgot to even include it in my list. And I JUST watched a video about it's release today too.
New World I haven't tried however it's not out yet...and is very anti-play-with-your-friends from what I could tell. You're grasping. I'm not gonna keep following you further down this insane rabbit hole. Let's stick to the goal here of making Ashes a GOOD game with combat that both sides can enjoy.
You're right I'm sorry you were referencing the guy in the video's list.
But no I don't really consider Ark survival evolved or Atlas real mmo's. Some people do, mmo websites cover them. But I agree more with you on that. Don't know anything about Lost Ark, don't care, looks bad. I was just saying there's lots of action mmo's out there. But we've been in a drought for mmo's period for years now so yeah it sucks.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Lol we agree on a lot, I don't know how we managed to get into all of that in the first place.
You're right this drought does suck. At least we have one more night of Alpha One
I'm not grasping or going down an insane rabbit hole. I was just saying there's lots of action mmos out there. And going forward there's going to be even more. We might be near parity now as far as how many action vs tab mmos come out.
I don't know, maybe Azherae can run a statistical comparison data compilation analysis for us on it.
I'm not grasping or going down an insane rabbit hole. I was just saying there's lots of action mmos out there. And going forward there's going to be even more. We might be near parity now as far as how many action vs tab mmos come out.
I don't know, maybe Azherae can run a statistical comparison data compilation analysis for us on it.
It really depends on how you define Action Combat MMO and if you want to include "dead" or extremely low population games on your list.
As an action combat fan, I can honestly say the only thing worth my time right now with Action Combat that I enjoy is Smite and that is a MOBA not an MMO.
The current outlook for Action Combat MMORPGs from my prospective is extremely low. Ashes maybe the only game on the horizon that looks promising for me in the realm of Action Combat. I don't include Mortal Online 2 in my definition of Action Combat because while it is "Action" based combat. It is its own unique thing that is great, but not the combat style I have learned to love in games like Tera and Wildstar.
I'm not saying the options are great Vhaeyne. They're not for me and I play them all, tab/action/hybrid. I have a slight tab preference, like 60/40, 55/45, nothing crazy I love good action too. But what am I supposed to do with WoW or FF, there's no good pvp to speak of in either. Were all in similar boats for different reasons.
Lmao to get things back on topic let me include a rough video reference for how some of us think combat should work against Jermaine, Torment of Illwind in the video that OP mentioned.
This Is somebody solo running a boss with a great sword in the Action MMORPG Vindictus. Replace the boss in Vindictus with Jermaine, Torment of Illwind and our player's character from AoC with the one wielding the orange glowing great sword: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0wmhVAUmqE&ab_channel=EnchantedCushion
This may be an over the top example of how this scenario would play in AoC, but I think it's a good base to understanding our vision of good Root Motion Melee Combat for PVE (and PVP but PVE is more of the focus here in the OP)
Imagine pulling off all of your basic attacks like in the video by just pressing a combination of LMB, RMB and your dodge keybind. This is what I think most of us want to see in AoC.
DISCLAIMER: The only MMORPG I've played is ESO to Lvl 20 on PC with an Xbox controller. I have a very small and limited understanding of how MMO's play on keyboard so take my suggestions for key bindings with a grain of salt. I'm in these forums because I want to find a better experience of the MMORPG genre and I think posting here will help add some new perspectives.
I'm not saying the options are great Vhaeyne. They're not for me and I play them all, tab/action/hybrid. I have a slight tab preference, like 60/40, 55/45, nothing crazy I love good action too. But what am I supposed to do with WoW or FF, there's no good pvp to speak of in either. Were all in similar boats for different reasons.
It feels bad, man. MOBAs kind of ruined MMORPG pvp. If you look at when LOL and DOTA2 hit the scene, that is right about the time PvP player populations seemed to die in MMORPGs. Now with battle royal games, there is even less people looking for good MMORPG PvP. I don't blame people for this. MOBAs and Battle Royals get you into a good, fair fight quickly.
The problem is, this makes MMORPG designers not want to compete with these genres as much. Every new MMORPG seems to be afraid of the Risk vs Reward dynamic that comes with open world PvP. MMORPGs with arenas and battlegrounds have really que times. When you do get into a match, PvP balance is not always the developer's priority and that feels bad too.
So, I end up just logging into Smite and playing that here and there to get my PvP fix. Which only makes me a apart of the problem. Another random guy playing MOBAs instead of MMORPG PvP. There is just nowhere to go. Which is why Ashes is so important to me. Putting "Risk vs Reward" on the front page is a sign that Ashes is different and may have the balls to not ruin PvP.
Tell you what, I'm all in. Ashes could go 100% that action type Ugoogee and I'm playing it no matter what. There is nothing that Ashes could do to make me not play it other than going pve carebear game.
But holyyyyyyyy fuk dude, that video. Maybe I just need a more modern Western version of it. I made it 2:30 in and that was a wrap.
@Vhaeyne Yeah mmo's died off for awhile but I think the tides are turning. Do you realize that JoshOG played Ashes when alpha 1 started for like 12 hours straight. JOSHOG. Not someone I really watch, but I was a little surprised to see his stream time that day and it was all Ashes. People are craving a good mmo.
Saw it with New World too. I think people are going to realize how shallow New World is after a month or two, but the huge interest in it is a good sign for mmos.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Tell you what, I'm all in. Ashes could go 100% that action type Ugoogee and I'm playing it no matter what. There is nothing that Ashes could do to make me not play it other than going pve carebear game.
But holyyyyyyyy fuk dude, that video. Maybe I just need a more modern Western version of it. I made it 2:30 in and that was a wrap.
Lol that's totally fair, Hurk (the character that's being played in that video) is pretty silly. One of my least favorite characters but the game as a whole is fantastic. Several of the characters (classes) are incredibly fun.
I honestly still think a big part of the problem is developers (or more likely, people directing developers) keep trying to make an MMO to suit everyone.
Action and tab target are not compatible. If you try and make one that appeals to both, you will make one that neither will like.
Same with PvP and PvE.
If a developer came out and said we are going to make a fully action based PvP MMORPG, and another fully tab based PvE focused MMORPG, then they are the company that is going to get the bulk of subscriptions - if both games live up to their potential.
Trying to pander to a larger crowd by merging product identities always results in capturing a smaller one.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2021
That's untrue Noaani. Action and tab can work together in a system that incorporates what both types of players are used to. Auto aimers vs skill aimers is what it really boils down to and we can have both.
We can also have some abilities that are made to aim and others that are made to place on the ground or auto target. That one is already something Intrepid is doing, has been from the start.
Both tab and action fans alike are asking for dodges, so there's that. And the majority of players on both sides have said they would like more out of a boss fight than playing "where is the safe spot to stand in while I spam my rotation".
We're honestly so much closer to a proper hybrid than you give credit for. It's only a matter of "Is Steven / Intrepid taking notes of these things in these top two recent hybrid threads"?
Lmao to get things back on topic let me include a rough video reference for how some of us think combat should work against Jermaine, Torment of Illwind in the video that OP mentioned.
This Is somebody solo running a boss with a great sword in the Action MMORPG Vindictus. Replace the boss in Vindictus with Jermaine, Torment of Illwind and our player's character from AoC with the one wielding the orange glowing great sword: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0wmhVAUmqE&ab_channel=EnchantedCushion
This maybe be an over the top example of how this scenario would play in AoC, but I think it's a good base to understanding our vision of good Root Motion Melee Combat for PVE (and PVP but PVE is more of the focus here in the OP)
Imagine pulling off all of your basic attacks like in the video by just pressing a combination of LMB, RMB and your dodge keybind. This is what I think most of us want to see in AoC.
DISCLAIMER: The only MMORPG I've played is ESO to Lvl 20 on PC with an Xbox controller. I have a very small and limited understanding of how MMO's play on keyboard so take my suggestions for key bindings with a grain of salt. I'm in these forums because I want to find a better experience of the MMORPG genre and I think posting here will help add some new perspectives.
Unfortunately because it's so over the top, it's likely to get a pretty negative reaction. Ashes literally can't work if it's like that. Almost every aspect of it is tuned wrong relative to any of Ashes' goals.
(it's actually really useful that you let us know that you haven't played many MMOs, because it lets me know what parts to highlight, and might help others to understand that certain things aren't 'assumed shared knowledge').
The note in the previous video is that Action MMOs can become 90% dashing 10% actual fighting, pretty fast. And it would be a really hard sell on most people who want to be able to play Tab, for this to be appealing, because of some other aspects of gameplay it changes. Specifically, it's an 'encounter leniency' problem.
If the enemy can only hit a good player 20% of the time, then they have to hit 5x as hard than they would have to hit if they could hit 100% of the time, for the game to be equally challenging. That's a massive jump. In a Tab Target MMO you can balance this by making Rogues evade 80% of attacks, and a Tank have around 80% damage reduction relative to what a Rogue would have, but in a Hybrid one you have to do more work. It's not hard work, necessarily, it's just 'more'.
In a Hybrid game, the player has to get hit. Some part of the encounter has to be tuned so that even if you are good at the execution, you still take some damage when the enemy's focus is on you. The benefit of blocking or dodging correctly has to be 'damage reduction' or 'avoiding a status that lowers your damage output'. In the case of our 'Rathalos', for example, correctly dodging or blocking a Tail Swipe would prevent 'being staggered by a knockback effect'. The knockback part lessens one's damage output somewhat. But the idea would be that most of the time, the swipe still hits you if you're just using some 'basic, commonly available evade' (i.e. not the Dodge roll, but any sidestep)
The primary 'way to prevent losing damage from DDs getting hit' is... the Tank. It's hitting the Tank, not you, so you're not being staggered or having to back off due to poison ticking down your health or being set on fire when you're not the one wearing fire resistance. If this isn't the dynamic, you didn't need the Tank, and that's not how Ashes works.
This means that the 'base' I gave before isn't enough to be interesting to the Rogues. They just 'get into position, do damage, and try not to do so much damage when the Tank is having trouble that the enemy turns'. In an open world PvP game, they might have other things to do, driving off other players or similar, but that's not the part we care about. The enemy has to give the Rogue some reason to care, to be there, to 'do their job and be a Rogue'.
If the Cleric comes under attack, though, this is where they have to move, to put down Smokebomb or whatever they have that outright lessens the Cleric's threat or makes the enemy less likely to attack them. And this means they have to be looking that way, or possibly moving that way (if a distance requirement is in place). Then getting back into position to restart the attack.
The thing is, all of these things are 'things that happen in Tab Target games'. Action movement and Targeting just help out with the feeling, and with the 'closing back in and doing your combo (both definitions of that word work here) at the right time'. Reactive stuff breaks up any 'rotation'. The AC Rogue might be able to re-target the tail more easily with some leaping stab ability and end up exactly where they want to, doing slightly more damage. The TT Rogue can just tab target the enemy and use the ability, ending up somewhere closer to its feet, then moving back into position, and can therefore make the decision to do this with a lot less consideration.
By the nature of a 'holy Trinity' game, it just can't be as 'high octane' as Vindictus, but the 'having to react' part can be built in, using the style that Tab Target games do. Putting it into the enemy encounter structure.
That's untrue Noaani. Action and tab can work together in a system that incorporates what both types of players are used to. Auto aimers vs skill aimers is what it really boils down to and we can have both.
This is only true if you take a surface only look at the combat systems, and ignore what each combat system does in the context of content.
@Noaani I do understand developers need to balance between listening to their player base and having a focus in their development team. Personally I think if they hired diverse talents familiar with different game systems, planning a cohesive and satisfying game wouldn't be an issue.
Intrepid Studios needs to hire creative talents that have backgrounds in games like Guild Wars 2, FF14 AND games like PS4 God of War, Monster Hunter series. The trick is to somehow make those kinds of games cohesive and satisfying for the players to experience.
People who enjoy Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwiches enjoy it for exactly how it sounds. Those same people may not enjoy it as much if it was a Peanut Butter OR Jelly Sandwich. I like PB&Js
Comments
1. Breathes fireballs.
2. Charge-tramples you, but doesn't actually like staying on the ground much.
3. Big tail swing, can be poisonous
4. Hopping talon/claw attack, can be poisonous
5. Diving talon/claw attack, can be poisonous, can grab you
6. Diving charge attack.
7. Can obviously also just bite at you
Mechanics that are common when fighting monsters that one 'should' expect to be translated over from Monster Hunter, that players initiate or aim for:
1. The monster can be flinched by damage, usually to the head (a separate hurtbox)
2. The monster can be knocked over by damage to the feet (another separate hurtbox)
3. The monster can be brought down from flying using a flash attack (as long as it is facing the flash)
4. The monster can be staggered by enough damage to the tail eventually cutting it off (another separate hurtbox)
A Tab Target game could do some stuff here, certainly better than the long telegraphs it has, to be interesting. An Action Combat game... well, we know what that does, but an Action Combat MMO would probably not do it the same, because in Monster Hunter your goal is to never be hit, and that doesn't fit well into Action Combat MMOs because the enemy has to therefore hit really hard whenever it does.
But we're talking about Hybrid, which can get to the 50-50 mark, once you start considering the hitboxes and hurtboxes.
The formula is simple enough when converted to an MMO. The enemy's initial attack has a smaller windup, a big swing and attack arc, and a relatively long recovery. If you defend correctly, you get a chance to hit the opponent afterward. Certain attacks cause stagger if you don't block or dodge them, so that your chance to hit the opponent is much smaller. The result would be that you take damage, but not too much, and you get worn down because you're not doing much damage yourself. You know that if you do better you will get to do more damage, and if you do worse, you will die (healer's mana will run out, defensive abilities will have to be wasted early and not be there for big attacks, etc).
With just this, you could design a Rathalos fight in Ashes that played in Hybrid, was interesting, wasn't disproportionately about 'Tab Mechanics' or 'Action Mechanics', and was 16-player content. All without even caring about specifics of combos, light or heavy attacks, etc. (I'd write out the whole thing, but it would have all the intricacies in it, and be another long 'design document', so, uh... I'll break it up across posts as we discuss it)
One thing you forgot to mention is the fact they can literally run away, which some find tedious, but it definitely makes finding and killing them all that much sweeter. If world bosses had certain positions that were there 'roosts', I think that would make general gameplay way more entertaining.
One of the best videos on the topic, very precise and insightful.
Aren't we all sinners?
Thanks @Ugoogee, this is the perfect primer for anyone who hasn't had all of the game experiences or doesn't know the games being referenced.
It also lets us skip some parts of discussion.
Things that could be added to Tab Target to make it more like Action without upsetting much:
Active Block
Dodge/Block followed by positional/status reaction to the situation
Some facing requirements, and/or strict-ish distance requirements on abilities
Things that could be added to Action Combat to make it more Tab without upsetting much:
Soft lock/Sticky Reticle targeting
Timing based strategy and 'more situations where the player is expected to take some damage'
Stat dependent Evasion and Accuracy that is assistive/secondary to the player's skill
People may not like these on principle, but we know these can be done because they've been done before in multiple games. Ashes can have all these. Ashes already has some.
If we apply just these to our 'Rathalos'...
Assume a 16 man encounter, 2x of each Archetype (actual full classes vary and we may discuss multiple options). For convenience we'll imagine that one group plays Tab Target mainly/only and the other plays in Action mode mainly/only.
One tank stands in front of the monster, another under its body near the feet. The TT Ranger stands near/behind the front tank, the AC Ranger is off to the left side. Other positions don't matter as much for now, just the positions of these four are enough to explain this part, though you can also go ahead and assume that the Rogues are both behind the monster.
The Tanks intend to keep the monster from using its charge attack to run off. To keep it still, like one would in most Tab Target games. When 'Feet Tank' has its attention, it uses poison talon strikes on them, the Healer handles this. When 'Face Tank' has its attention, it uses fireballs or bites.
Face Tank can block, or even sidestep dodge the Fireball sometimes (Free Motion vs Rooted Motion doesn't matter here, the width of the fireball AoE is tuned to whatever, no ground telegraph is required if the fireball isn't super hard hitting, you'll learn it fast since it is focused on Face Tank). Then quickly get back into position so the rangers don't have to move, but either can. AC Ranger has a good shot at the head hurtbox whenever Fireball is happening. TT Ranger gets to shoot at 'head' only when it bites and for a short time when Fireball is done, since the projectile still travels even if Tab Target is on, so head would have to be 'down', but they can shoot more often and just help with damage.
Since they are a TT player, this is fine with them. AC Ranger probably doesn't mind 'not moving' either, because they're constantly adjusting their aim for where the head is (let's assume their chance of Blind Shot working goes up if they hit the head).
Face Tank can interrupt the Fireball outright instead, if they want to, by Action Targeting the head when it rears up to 'inhale' with Javelin, reducing total damage done and coordinating with TT Ranger's Blind Shot, especially if AC Ranger missed somehow. So sometimes the action aspect of their play isn't 'Move out of the way' of Fireball, it's 'Respond'. TT Ranger doesn't need to be told this. If Fireball is happening and Face Tank isn't dodging, it's probably because they're going to Javelin.
If Javelin misses, they take damage, and lose hate, and it somehow goes to AC Ranger, the monster will either try to Fireball over there, or use a running charge, maybe dependent on distance. AC Ranger could 'notice that FaceTank got hit and run closer to prevent the charge, but it might charge anyway. Assuming they 'do it right' and it goes for Fireball instead, they just dodge that to buy time for some other tank interaction. FaceTank missed their Javelin so they can't try to interrupt this Fireball, so now they have to get it back on them (we'll assume they were using Spear to let them stand further away from the body to do this all in the first place).
In the basic moment to moment stuff, whenever the Tank correctly blocks a bite, or a talon attack, the monster stays in a vulnerable position long enough for a few attacks. In either system a 'melee combo' is available. WASD Root Motion allows them to do these things from further away due to having a lunge, but that's easily achieved by higher natural ground mobility, e.g. Neverwinter (more ground mobility means that the AoE for the fireball has to be bigger, though).
If the Rogues do enough damage to get the attention instead, the monster doesn't necessarily turn around, immediately, it just readies a tail swing which they can dodge. Either Tank can respond by using an ability for threat to prevent it from turning after the Tail Swing, or the Rogues can take the damage and use their own 'drop some threat' ability, depending on their flow and the healers.
This is what I think of when I think 'mob behaviour' in Ashes, and this is 'the absolute basic mechanics of this battle before actual interesting things start to happen'.
But I thought the analysis was pretty good, fair and thoughtful other than a couple things.
"Tab target games usually lack friendly fire, so are pro-zerg."
Like what. I cant think of many mmo's that even have friendly fire period. Mortal Online 1, Darkfall maybe, I played both, can't remember. Maybe there's some out there, really don't know. But my god does that sound horrible, the amount of griefing and trolling friendly fire in an mmo would cause. I am hugely anti zerg, anti murderball meta. That topic is the one and only topic I have started on this forum. There's all kinds of ways to fix that meta, friendly fire aint it for most games. For all the good analysis in the video, it's like his brain clicked off for that one.
"Due to the game being more knowledge dependent, a meta develops that can make prohibit variety."
You can't have it both ways. You already acknowledged that tab target games inherently have more variety in builds and classes previously in the video. There's always going to be a meta and overperforming/underperforming builds/classes. Same for action games. Look at New World, the vast majority of people we're running great axe/hammer. That's the job of the devs of a game to balance their shit, not a fault of tab.
"Being the most popular combat system means the market starts to get stale after awhile."
Well then we can assume the same thing would happen if action was the most popular combat system? Or is action divinely inspired and blessed by God himself. How many clips of 12 year olds hitting sick flick shots in Fortnite do you think I had to see before it got stale to me? Or clips of people lighting up like a disco ball in BDO zig zag dashing around and landing a shot on someone else who's also lit up like a disco ball zig zagging around. It all has the potential to get stale, action and tab included.
Bias or not, there's no need to defend it or critique it, really. We're not trying to use it to declare something that must be. Your response of 'just play the game type that suits you', I will assume was at the video's creator.
Ashes said Hybrid was a thing, people got interested, now we're discussing what would be acceptable to all.
So, since no one is trying to hold anyone hostage here, wanna add the "Mage" part of a boss fight for us?
After 70+ hours of leveling, 50 more hours of running small time dungeons, all of the trials and tribulations, the mage has finally made it to end game. THE 40 MAN RAID. ITS GO TIME.
The mage stands on top of 12 other mages and presses tab. It tabs to an add. Presses tab again, gotttt em, boss targeted. frost bolt frost bolt frost bolt frost bolt frost bolt frost bolt frost bolt
I mean just based on your list of 3 action mmos, I've played way more action mmos than you.
I understand your name a lot better now...
But I've played Darkfall, and there's been 3 or so separate games in that series. I played Mortal Online 1, and now there's a Mortal Online 2. I played Crowfall, talk about absolutely garbage action combat. I played Atlas, pretty sure that's action but yeah more mmo/survival, and there's Ark: Survival Evolved or whatever. It get's nitty gritty and depends on how you define things...but other games I see in this "action mmo" list are Lost Ark, Revelation Online, Gloria Victis, Neverwinter, Blade and Soul. If you include hybrid there's ESO and Wildstar. I'm not listing all this, there's more.
Edit: Bless Online/Unleashed
lol new world
That's not *my* list. I said those were the 3 action games the video creator listed. Not sure what list of action mmos you're looking up but when I do a google search for that exact term I get a list that includes purely tab target mmos. Now then, in addition to the 3 the video mentioned, I also tried ESO, PSO2, Blade and Soul, and I'm sure others that I'm not remembering.
Of those 6, I've enjoyed BDO, Vindictus and PSO2. But BDO is basically PvP only as I said, Vindictus is pretty much dead, and PSO2 is a shell of what PSU was. I'm just not a fan of it. It's also stupidly easy no matter what difficulty of boss you do.
EDIT: Okay you have a seriously LOOSE definition of what an MMO is. I guess we should have been specifying MMORPG because then surely you wouldn't have said Ark Survival Evolved...
Also, Lost Ark is an isometric ARPG aka Diablo.
Bless Unleashed isn't good, I've already played it in beta and it was so hollow to me that I forgot to even include it in my list. And I JUST watched a video about it's release today too.
New World I haven't tried however it's not out yet...and is very anti-play-with-your-friends from what I could tell. You're grasping. I'm not gonna keep following you further down this insane rabbit hole. Let's stick to the goal here of making Ashes a GOOD game with combat that both sides can enjoy.
But no I don't really consider Ark survival evolved or Atlas real mmo's. Some people do, mmo websites cover them. But I agree more with you on that. Don't know anything about Lost Ark, don't care, looks bad. I was just saying there's lots of action mmo's out there. But we've been in a drought for mmo's period for years now so yeah it sucks.
You're right this drought does suck. At least we have one more night of Alpha One
I don't know, maybe Azherae can run a statistical comparison data compilation analysis for us on it.
It really depends on how you define Action Combat MMO and if you want to include "dead" or extremely low population games on your list.
As an action combat fan, I can honestly say the only thing worth my time right now with Action Combat that I enjoy is Smite and that is a MOBA not an MMO.
The current outlook for Action Combat MMORPGs from my prospective is extremely low. Ashes maybe the only game on the horizon that looks promising for me in the realm of Action Combat. I don't include Mortal Online 2 in my definition of Action Combat because while it is "Action" based combat. It is its own unique thing that is great, but not the combat style I have learned to love in games like Tera and Wildstar.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
This Is somebody solo running a boss with a great sword in the Action MMORPG Vindictus. Replace the boss in Vindictus with Jermaine, Torment of Illwind and our player's character from AoC with the one wielding the orange glowing great sword:
This may be an over the top example of how this scenario would play in AoC, but I think it's a good base to understanding our vision of good Root Motion Melee Combat for PVE (and PVP but PVE is more of the focus here in the OP)
Imagine pulling off all of your basic attacks like in the video by just pressing a combination of LMB, RMB and your dodge keybind. This is what I think most of us want to see in AoC.
DISCLAIMER: The only MMORPG I've played is ESO to Lvl 20 on PC with an Xbox controller. I have a very small and limited understanding of how MMO's play on keyboard so take my suggestions for key bindings with a grain of salt. I'm in these forums because I want to find a better experience of the MMORPG genre and I think posting here will help add some new perspectives.
It feels bad, man. MOBAs kind of ruined MMORPG pvp. If you look at when LOL and DOTA2 hit the scene, that is right about the time PvP player populations seemed to die in MMORPGs. Now with battle royal games, there is even less people looking for good MMORPG PvP. I don't blame people for this. MOBAs and Battle Royals get you into a good, fair fight quickly.
The problem is, this makes MMORPG designers not want to compete with these genres as much. Every new MMORPG seems to be afraid of the Risk vs Reward dynamic that comes with open world PvP. MMORPGs with arenas and battlegrounds have really que times. When you do get into a match, PvP balance is not always the developer's priority and that feels bad too.
So, I end up just logging into Smite and playing that here and there to get my PvP fix. Which only makes me a apart of the problem. Another random guy playing MOBAs instead of MMORPG PvP. There is just nowhere to go. Which is why Ashes is so important to me. Putting "Risk vs Reward" on the front page is a sign that Ashes is different and may have the balls to not ruin PvP.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
But holyyyyyyyy fuk dude, that video. Maybe I just need a more modern Western version of it. I made it 2:30 in and that was a wrap.
Saw it with New World too. I think people are going to realize how shallow New World is after a month or two, but the huge interest in it is a good sign for mmos.
Lol that's totally fair, Hurk (the character that's being played in that video) is pretty silly. One of my least favorite characters but the game as a whole is fantastic. Several of the characters (classes) are incredibly fun.
@Ugoogee Heck yeah dude, another Vindi fan =D
Action and tab target are not compatible. If you try and make one that appeals to both, you will make one that neither will like.
Same with PvP and PvE.
If a developer came out and said we are going to make a fully action based PvP MMORPG, and another fully tab based PvE focused MMORPG, then they are the company that is going to get the bulk of subscriptions - if both games live up to their potential.
Trying to pander to a larger crowd by merging product identities always results in capturing a smaller one.
We can also have some abilities that are made to aim and others that are made to place on the ground or auto target. That one is already something Intrepid is doing, has been from the start.
Both tab and action fans alike are asking for dodges, so there's that. And the majority of players on both sides have said they would like more out of a boss fight than playing "where is the safe spot to stand in while I spam my rotation".
We're honestly so much closer to a proper hybrid than you give credit for. It's only a matter of "Is Steven / Intrepid taking notes of these things in these top two recent hybrid threads"?
Unfortunately because it's so over the top, it's likely to get a pretty negative reaction. Ashes literally can't work if it's like that. Almost every aspect of it is tuned wrong relative to any of Ashes' goals.
(it's actually really useful that you let us know that you haven't played many MMOs, because it lets me know what parts to highlight, and might help others to understand that certain things aren't 'assumed shared knowledge').
The note in the previous video is that Action MMOs can become 90% dashing 10% actual fighting, pretty fast. And it would be a really hard sell on most people who want to be able to play Tab, for this to be appealing, because of some other aspects of gameplay it changes. Specifically, it's an 'encounter leniency' problem.
If the enemy can only hit a good player 20% of the time, then they have to hit 5x as hard than they would have to hit if they could hit 100% of the time, for the game to be equally challenging. That's a massive jump. In a Tab Target MMO you can balance this by making Rogues evade 80% of attacks, and a Tank have around 80% damage reduction relative to what a Rogue would have, but in a Hybrid one you have to do more work. It's not hard work, necessarily, it's just 'more'.
In a Hybrid game, the player has to get hit. Some part of the encounter has to be tuned so that even if you are good at the execution, you still take some damage when the enemy's focus is on you. The benefit of blocking or dodging correctly has to be 'damage reduction' or 'avoiding a status that lowers your damage output'. In the case of our 'Rathalos', for example, correctly dodging or blocking a Tail Swipe would prevent 'being staggered by a knockback effect'. The knockback part lessens one's damage output somewhat. But the idea would be that most of the time, the swipe still hits you if you're just using some 'basic, commonly available evade' (i.e. not the Dodge roll, but any sidestep)
The primary 'way to prevent losing damage from DDs getting hit' is... the Tank. It's hitting the Tank, not you, so you're not being staggered or having to back off due to poison ticking down your health or being set on fire when you're not the one wearing fire resistance. If this isn't the dynamic, you didn't need the Tank, and that's not how Ashes works.
This means that the 'base' I gave before isn't enough to be interesting to the Rogues. They just 'get into position, do damage, and try not to do so much damage when the Tank is having trouble that the enemy turns'. In an open world PvP game, they might have other things to do, driving off other players or similar, but that's not the part we care about. The enemy has to give the Rogue some reason to care, to be there, to 'do their job and be a Rogue'.
If the Cleric comes under attack, though, this is where they have to move, to put down Smokebomb or whatever they have that outright lessens the Cleric's threat or makes the enemy less likely to attack them. And this means they have to be looking that way, or possibly moving that way (if a distance requirement is in place). Then getting back into position to restart the attack.
The thing is, all of these things are 'things that happen in Tab Target games'. Action movement and Targeting just help out with the feeling, and with the 'closing back in and doing your combo (both definitions of that word work here) at the right time'. Reactive stuff breaks up any 'rotation'. The AC Rogue might be able to re-target the tail more easily with some leaping stab ability and end up exactly where they want to, doing slightly more damage. The TT Rogue can just tab target the enemy and use the ability, ending up somewhere closer to its feet, then moving back into position, and can therefore make the decision to do this with a lot less consideration.
By the nature of a 'holy Trinity' game, it just can't be as 'high octane' as Vindictus, but the 'having to react' part can be built in, using the style that Tab Target games do. Putting it into the enemy encounter structure.
Intrepid Studios needs to hire creative talents that have backgrounds in games like Guild Wars 2, FF14 AND games like PS4 God of War, Monster Hunter series. The trick is to somehow make those kinds of games cohesive and satisfying for the players to experience.
People who enjoy Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwiches enjoy it for exactly how it sounds. Those same people may not enjoy it as much if it was a Peanut Butter OR Jelly Sandwich. I like PB&Js