Never done the raids you're speaking of from any of those classic tab games, though I'm sure I probably have looked at gameplay from some.
I was going off PSO2 and BDO to make my assumption. I can't recall details behind any other "raid" content I've done in other games, besides Vindictus but that doesn't count here.
In BDO, world bosses typically spawned daily, but at semi random times. And in PSO2 there were daily (possibly more than once per day, but can't remember) emergencies (raids) that would require completion of prerequisite battles and then the actual raid would open up and at the very highest difficulty would take maybe 1 hour in total between the pre-reqs and the actual raid.
Important note: I'm also partially just throwing out my assumption based on what I'd like to see and what would be most logical. I think it would be silly to have a dozen bosses that can each only be done once per week. Even a once-per-day spawn would be sort of obnoxious considering how massive the world is. A guild or a party of friends potentially spending hours travelling across the world going to each spawn point and missing each one, thus wasting their entire evening, sound like bad game design. The time in the fight doesn't matter to me too much as long as it's reasonable, like 30 minutes to 2 hours min/max.
Once per week is the standard.
Games with instances use weekly lockout timers on raids. Games like EQ, EQ2 and Archeage have weekly spawn timers on actual boss encounters (shorter timers on lower tier encounters).
Even BDO has encounters that only spawn weekly (Vell being one, from memory). It has other mobs (Offin, Garmoth) that spawn three times a week. However, this game has such badly designed PvE content that it isn't really worth discussing, let alone thinking any other game would follow suit.
PSO2 is an ARPG, and so has a different game focus and pace.
Of all the games above, Archeage is the game that Ashes has the most similarity to in terms of the purpose of open world raid encounters. They are a thing to be fought over - and if they are just going to spawn again tomorrow, there is no need to fight over them. A guild could very quickly get all they need from an encounter if it spawns daily - whereas if it spawns weekly they may never get all they need, and thus keep up the fight.
While I would expect some raid encounters to respawn at least daily, the actual boss encounters - the ones people actually want to kill - will almost definitely be weekly by actual necessity of the content type.
While you may say you "would like to see" it differently, we have reason to assume weekly, and no reason to assume anything shorter - and so we must assume weekly unless/until we see otherwise.
@Cypher Lol I think it would be cool job. Also @Azherae would have to join us to fix any inconsistencies.
2- I think non-tank classes while using a shield would be about 85% front and 75% back pre-mitigation so that squishier classes won't be doing as good of a job as the actual Tank class. I can agree with the rest of your thoughts.
3 and 3.5- I can agree and actually think the possible counter function for daggers is a really cool idea and reminds me of timed blocking for the Orochi in For Honor.
In general, during design, one should do the absolute most you can to avoid any situation where two classes are 'playing a different game' in a passive sense. Now, obviously, this doesn't mean 'make everyone entirely the same', some diversity must exist, but whenever you find yourself adding diversity for 'flavor', you run the risk of creating an imbalance you didn't think of, and upsetting some niche player for effectively no reason.
"This class has X trait, but not Y trait, this other class has Y trait, but not X."
When the trait in question is 'a modification of something around an average' it works well. When it is 'you get to take this approach and the other doesn't' it tends to need to be limited to single player games.
That is, of course, if you want people to feel free and have variety. A situation that has the chance to lead to a player going 'I could help do this in this situation but I put all my skills into Dagger and my class can't use Daggers to block' feels bad without specifically adding anything to the game.
If your goal was 'to make classes more likely to choose certain weapons', sure, but that's almost explicitly not Intrepid's goal. Consider the Rogue who, for some reason, doesn't want to even take Stealth or whatever 'roll evade' skill is available. This is possible in Ashes. If there are good enough other reasons to choose Rogue over another Archetype, this is still valid.
Actually, it's because the Archetypes are likely to be so well defined with the structure of 'you not only aren't required to take every skill, you can't' (they might mean 'can't take all to max' though), that this happens. A Rogue has reasons to be Rogue that don't necessarily fit a given thing.
So our hypothetical 'no Stealth, no secondary Active Dodge' Rogue that still wants to use Dual Wielded Daggers for some reason has lost a mechanic that is 'available to many other classes' without getting the 'thing you figured was the reason the Rogue didn't need that mechanic'.
It's the same 'danger' as making it so that you need a Shield to block. In Ashes, this isn't great. Tanks don't all want to use Shields. Now Intrepid has to design encounters that either 'require Tanks that don't want to use Shields, to use them anyway', or 'possibly make Shield Tanking overpowered relative to anything else' (so that the Halberd Tank doesn't die constantly). Which then leads to 'Shield nerfs' in the next balance pass...
When you could just let everyone block (and for various PvP reasons this is better design anyway).
@Azherae hmm let me try to balance these hypothetical scenarios and mechanics based on what your telling me...
All weapons and classes can block using the rough damage mitigation formula I previously posted however all classes, except Tanks, blocking with a shield get about 85% front and 75% back pre-mitigation damage. All Weapons and classes have stamina/mana regeneration speed reduced while blocking.
Tanks would get about a 15% increase to front and back pre-mitigation from damage to all weapons except shields while blocking. Shields gives about 100% front and 85% back damage pre-mitigation. Stamina regeneration speed reduction while blocking is reduced by about 15%.
Rogues get about a 10% increase to pre-mitigation from damage when using light weapons, like a dagger, and about 20% increase to pre-mitigation from damage when dual wielding, while blocking. Rogues can gain a weapon skill that removes blocking but changes it to a parry when using a light weapon, such as daggers. This parry skill when timed correctly reflects X amount of damage based on X stat and increases by X% damage when dual wielding.
Just to add more scenarios, Mages get about a 15% increase to pre-mitigation from damage while using a wand or spell book. Mana regeneration speed reduction while blocking is reduced by about 15%.
Do these examples seem to be a reasonable way of balancing based on your feedback?
EDIT: I've finally finished editing and apologize for the confusions
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Cypher Lol I think it would be cool job. Also @Azherae would have to join us to fix any inconsistencies.
2- I think non-tank classes while using a shield would be about 85% front and 75% back pre-mitigation so that squishier classes won't be doing as good of a job as the actual Tank class. I can agree with the rest of your thoughts.
3 and 3.5- I can agree and actually think the possible counter function for daggers is a really cool idea and reminds me of timed blocking for the Orochi in For Honor.
If your goal was 'to make classes more likely to choose certain weapons', sure, but that's almost explicitly not Intrepid's goal. Consider the Rogue who, for some reason, doesn't want to even take Stealth or whatever 'roll evade' skill is available. This is possible in Ashes. If there are good enough other reasons to choose Rogue over another Archetype, this is still valid.
So our hypothetical 'no Stealth, no secondary Active Dodge' Rogue that still wants to use Dual Wielded Daggers for some reason has lost a mechanic that is 'available to many other classes' without getting the 'thing you figured was the reason the Rogue didn't need that mechanic'.
When you could just let everyone block (and for various PvP reasons this is better design anyway).
Well yeah, but that's where the "counter" idea came from. If this silly Rogue didn't want to spec into stealth or even their mobility for some reason, they can still rely on counter to bring something unique but useful to the table. It's like a block but a different flavor that makes sense for a Rogue. Each class should be distinct and since ALL classes can use ALL weapons, they need something to diversify them at least one further layer besides "different hot bar abilities". Adding a unique RMB move would do wonders. Tank's would be block, Rogue's would be counter. Who knows what the other ones would be but I can work on that answer if you'd like.
And specifically for the final sentence of letting everyone block for PvP reasons, I still disagree. I don't believe each class should have equal footing in a 1v1 PvP situation. And that's fine because 1v1s are probably going to be a lot more rare than the other PvP situations, and certainly not the focus. So for a group PvP, you'll need to know which classes you're strong against and which you're weak against.
And last note to reiterate: I do think everyone should be able to block IF they're holding a shield, two-hand sword, or maybe staff. This allows "anyone to have a block" but you don't just get one for no reason. It's always a trade off. Only person who always gets a block is a tank.
Greetings,
With all the talk about the player's movement and mechanics for combat, I had a realization that we also need to talk about how mobs (and bosses) will interact with the player in combat.
Currently, mobs will make a straight line toward you until in range, where they will stay firmly planted and swing at you. The server, as far as I can tell, always calculates whether or not you were hit based on RNG and stats rather than looking at whether or not the enemy strike made contact with your hitbox. It appears that strafing in circles around a mob for example has no effect on whether or not it hits you. If you’re near it, it hits you unless the server says you “evaded”. Gross. This leads to walking up to a mob, and doing exactly what it does: standing still and holding the attack key (and throwing some abilities at it). This is mind-numbingly boring.
Additionally, this results in a contest between who can withstand more damage. Plenty of examples of this exist but what sparked this thought was the intro to this video. Look at the very beginning, where he’s fighting a boss called Jermaine, Torment of Illwind. The fight takes place standing still, until the player realizes he is going to lose based on which health bar is going down faster, along with an AOE from the boss, and only then does he use any movement, to turn and run. Movement is pointless in combat currently (except for a few telegraphed AOE attacks shown on the ground).
I propose some solutions to counter the issue above, that I feel are very necessary for a good PvE experience:
1- The mobs should have some variety with how they engage the player (maybe they rush you, maybe they try to get around you to attack from the side or back, etc) including strafing or even dodging (some mobs maybe, not all) rather than sitting still and attacking unless the player steps back or turns to run.
2- The player's hitbox should matter, just like the mob hitbox should. I believe we saw Steven demonstrate that when swinging a sword in a horizontal arc, all mobs within the arc are hit. This is good. We need the mob's attacks to operate the same way. If you’re in their attack arc, you’re hit, if you step out of the way of the swing, you’re not hit. Same goes for bosses. Imagine the fight I mentioned above (which you can witness with the video link), with the boss "Jermaine" but with the ability to side step the those sword strikes. Now you have a reason to be moving around AND actually watching what the boss is doing rather than mindlessly staring at both health bars and spamming all your hotkeys. If you could see the boss is winding up for an attack, you know it's time to dodge (and based on what type of attack is coming, you know whether to step left, right, back or dodge roll).
*And finally, a few things I thought of later in this thread that would be enough for me, and probably many others to feel good with the combat:
- Dedicated block (assigned to RMB for example) for weapons that make sense
- Light and heavy attacks for basic attacking. Click for light, hold and release (or use a modifier like shift+LMB) for heavy.
These add enough depth to combat, and enough player-choice in between ability cooldowns to be engaging for most players whether action or tab. It’s a little more than what tabby players are used to but not hard at all, and a lot less than what action players are used to. It’s a good compromise. Help me get this in front of intrepid if you agree.
I'm open to a better title for this thread by the way. Hard to come up with exactly what to call this specific topic.
Please share your thoughts and feel free to either agree with the points I made or completely rip them apart.
My issue is I don’t think you can have these action gameplay elements as suggested and also have a tab system, they don’t mix. You either go BDO, NW, dark souls or you go GW2 as broad stroke combat choices. That’s why I’m an advocate of enhanced tab. In terms of action this would still include dodge rolling, aoe targetting, cone effect targetting, reticle aimed instant skillshots i.e. a fireball shoots fast at the hit box of a player being near instant like a gun shot rather than like an arrow that has a slow travel time and reticle aimed channelled skillshots like prismatic beam.
@Azherae hmm let me try to balance these hypothetical scenarios and mechanics based on what your telling me...
All weapons and classes can block using the rough damage mitigation formula I previously posted however all classes, except Tanks, blocking with a shield get about 85% front and 75% back pre-mitigation damage. All Weapons and classes have stamina/mana regeneration speed reduced while blocking.
Tanks would get about a 15% increase to front and back pre-mitigation from damage to all weapons except shields while blocking. Shields gives about 100% front and 85% back damage pre-mitigation. Stamina regeneration speed reduction while blocking is reduced by about 15%.
Rogues get about a 10% increase to pre-mitigation from damage when using light weapons, like a dagger, and about 20% increase to pre-mitigation from damage when dual wielding, while blocking. Rogues can gain a weapon skill that removes blocking but changes it to a parry when using a light weapon, such as daggers. This parry skill when timed correctly reflects X amount of damage based on X stat and increases by X% damage when dual wielding.
Just to add more scenarios, Mages get about a 15% increase to pre-mitigation from damage while using a wand or spell book. Mana regeneration speed reduction while blocking is reduced by about 15%.
Do these examples seem to be a reasonable way of balancing based on your feedback?
EDIT: I've finally finished editing and apologize for the confusions
That's more a question for @Cypher, since you two have competing design goals at the moment.
You took up the stance of 'I'll design for all shields to be strong and for all weapons and classes to block' after what I said. Cypher wants only certain classes to block and is 'arguing' that side.
Let's bring in the hypothetical 'Dual Wield Spin-to-Win Fighter'. They definitely exist, there are at least 3 of them in my data collection if not more. We'll ignore the 'Rogue that wants to use a big 2H mace' for now, since I don't know if their name and request was a joke.
Let's assume for the sake of argument that Fighters can't block while using two swords. If the counterargument is 'well Fighters are a class that should be able to block' then I'll just say 'Bard' instead because I have "Dual Wield Bard" data too.
"Why can't I block?"
"Because you chose not to use a shield and classes should be different."
"But blocking is part of the base game PvP interaction. I just want to Dual Wield and block with my offhand."
"If you want to block, you should equip a shield."
"But I want to be a dual wielding Fighter and fight good in PvP and 1v1. Am I getting tons more damage because I Dual Wield, then?"
"No that would be bad for balance." OR "Sure, that's what helps make you different."
"But shields mitigate so much damage!" OR "Well that's fine shields basically don't do much anyway."
"Well, if you want that style, use a shield. Classes should be different to make the game more interesting."
"But now I'm not interested at all! You took away my ability to play the way I want to."
"Well, then this game isn't for you."
If the final answer in this chain is anything other than 'this game isn't for you', the designer has made a mistake. As long as the designer's goal is 'This is the way I want the game to be, and I have a good reason' then it's fine to tell a player 'find a different game'. I'm only concerned with when a designer doesn't realize they're doing this for no good reason.
The thing Cypher wants is subjective. As a designer I would never do it, I don't consider it important compared to 'letting people express themselves more or less however within the balance structure'. There are people who definitely want their fantasy games to have 'strongly defined identities' and that's valid too. And which of those Ashes is, is up to Intrepid.
I do, however, fear that if the game pushes toward 'more defined identity' it will also 'have no good reason for engaging Action Combat' and therefore weaken the argument.
I have to study a lot of player psychology, particularly their weakpoints and frustration reactions (I teach/coach fighting games) and that's probably why I think this way.
So for you, @Ugoogee, if blocking does that much mitigation on all attacks, it's now incompatible with Cypher's will.
If you want my input, I would tie 'how much of an attack can be blocked' directly into the data for the attack itself. You can't 'block' a Black Hole, in my mind. You can block Divine Censure better than you can block Castigation, etc. And at that point we'd be into the type of balance tuning that is probably out of the scope of a forum discussion unless you want to crunch the entire whiteboard worth of numbers.
I'm down for that, I like doing that, but it is lots of speculation and I prefer to only do it to verify other people's perspectives. So let's verify Cypher's. If the final answer is 'well this game isn't for you, classes should have identity', that's an 'ender'. There's no way to agree and it's best to drop that part of the discussion. If Cypher shifts then you can discuss other aspects of blocking.
@Azherae you bring up some good points and I'm tempted to bring up ideas for you to number crunch...
I made my second theoretical blocking mechanic as a way of compromise for balance and also allowing class identity but as you said, let's try to verify and understand @Cypher 's thoughts and perspectives.
Well in the meantime, I figured out how to use a non-theoretical version of the 'whiteboard' for calibration. I'll put the relevant portion of it in text form since I don't figure most people want to look at an actual (or rather, Figma) whiteboard.
As of now the intended TTK in Ashes is between 30 and 60 seconds.
Abilities have cooldowns between 8 and 18 seconds. Therefore most abilities can be used twice in a fight before someone dies. (we'll ignore the fact that healing is 'too strong' for now).
If a player has 5 damage dealing abilities, and enough mana to use them all in one fight (likely, this is an 'input' from another part of the whiteboard), the opponent must be able to survive 5 damage dealing abilities through either defensive skills, consumables, buffs, evasion, or blocking. (this branches off into another part, if normal melee is possible, you have to be able to survive even being targeted by all 5 or no one will care about melee weapons anyway and we will have a pure shield meta).
Most people won't be satisfied if their Abilities do damage similar or less than their melee, regardless of Split Body, AC vs TT, anything. Abilities should be satisfying. If we assume any class that cannot block for any reason, abilities should do 15% of their health, and melee about 3-5%. These numbers can go up with either Evasion abilities, Evasion Stat, Damage mitigation, or Blocking stuff.
Now here's where we get to the problem.
The more you raise those numbers, the more you constrain the meta. If we give Shields a 50% damage mitigation, then Shield just 'makes you die 50% slower'. But your opponent still used their abilities. And their Mana. They now have to wait for cooldowns. It's your 'turn to attack'.
But they block with their shield too. Now the game is 'guessing when to block and waiting on cooldowns'. The unfortunate soul who didn't bring a shield against the Shield carrying Ranger better be really good at dodging compared to that Ranger's accuracy. And maybe that's intended...
This branches off into what I am tentatively calling 'Cypher's whiteboard'. Where 'classes that don't have blocking in certain cases get other defensive stuff'.
Except... they can still equip shields if they want to. And then the whole thing collapses.
If a Dual Wield Sword Rogue has enough natural Evasion to make up for not having a Shield, then they are broken as soon as they pick up a Shield, unless you 'restrict them from being good with shields' or 'only raised their Evasion when they were Dual Wielding' (also fine, as long as it suits your model, I only dislike these because making things complex for average players is dangerous for longevity).
You put a focus group in the room or give them the two different builds, let them feel it out, and see what they say. I don't know what they'd say. I find focus groups extremely hard to predict even when it's for something that seems obvious. I can count the times a focus group did not surprise me on one hand so now I just expect that there will be someone who is opposed to literally anything anyone says.
But that's the method I'm used to. Draw up one middle whiteboard, branch off into the two side ones, ask people which one gives the experience they want, and see what you can merge back into the middle one. You can just crunch numbers yourself with that, though. You can assume the TTK is unchanging and tweak the defensive stats, or 'tweak the stats to what you think is cool and just watch what it does to TTK'. It's all data, so it's all useful.
If your goal was 'to make classes more likely to choose certain weapons', sure, but that's almost explicitly not Intrepid's goal. Consider the Rogue who, for some reason, doesn't want to even take Stealth or whatever 'roll evade' skill is available. This is possible in Ashes. If there are good enough other reasons to choose Rogue over another Archetype, this is still valid.
So our hypothetical 'no Stealth, no secondary Active Dodge' Rogue that still wants to use Dual Wielded Daggers for some reason has lost a mechanic that is 'available to many other classes' without getting the 'thing you figured was the reason the Rogue didn't need that mechanic'.
When you could just let everyone block (and for various PvP reasons this is better design anyway).
I think that's practically like a Tank choosing not to use abilities that generate Threat or Damage Mitigation or a Mage choosing not to use Elemental Damage.
It might be possible for a Rogue to not use any Stealth abilities, but most likely all their other abilities would add either Evasion or Bleeds.
Anyway...
Seems like Active Block should probably be more a Weapon Skill than an Archetype Active Skill.
Typically, there are other weapons that can Active Block besides just Shields.
Seems like Dual Wield will probably be a Weapon Skill rather than an Archetype Active Skill.
Where any class can use any weapon, I don't think Active Block and Dual-Wielding will be defined by class.
If your goal was 'to make classes more likely to choose certain weapons', sure, but that's almost explicitly not Intrepid's goal. Consider the Rogue who, for some reason, doesn't want to even take Stealth or whatever 'roll evade' skill is available. This is possible in Ashes. If there are good enough other reasons to choose Rogue over another Archetype, this is still valid.
So our hypothetical 'no Stealth, no secondary Active Dodge' Rogue that still wants to use Dual Wielded Daggers for some reason has lost a mechanic that is 'available to many other classes' without getting the 'thing you figured was the reason the Rogue didn't need that mechanic'.
When you could just let everyone block (and for various PvP reasons this is better design anyway).
I think that's practically like a Tank choosing not to use abilities that generate Threat or Damage Mitigation or a Mage choosing not to use Elemental Damage.
It might be possible for a Rogue to not use any Stealth abilities, but most likely all their other abilities would add either Evasion or Bleeds.
Anyway...
Seems like Active Block should probably be more a Weapon Skill than an Archetype Active Skill.
Typically, there are other weapons that can Active Block besides just Shields.
Seems like Dual Wield will probably be a Weapon Skill rather than an Archetype Active Skill.
Where any class can use any weapon, I don't think Active Block and Dual-Wielding will be defined by class.
I'm saying that if you want PvP to be interesting in every matchup (regardless of exact balance), all classes must be able to Active Block with all weapons. The specifics of how much that Active Block helps, can be tweaked by class or weapon, but you have to avoid 'people playing a different game' under that condition.
If one doesn't care about every PvP matchup being interesting, and perceive that the game benefits from 'things that you can do/design because you chose not to give everyone Active Block', then great. I personally dislike it, but that's a decision that could be made quite reasonably. It's not to enable balance though. Because the more similar everyone is, the more balanced things are.
I feel that making any given interaction less interesting is suboptimal. I design card games with this in mind so I have a bias. Some card games are about 'building your deck to be perfect at what it does'. It crushes the opponent if their deck is weak to it. The interesting part of the game is 'building'. Some are about 'decks having constraints that make them similar, and you must therefore react and know what you are doing in every game. The interesting part of the game is 'playing'.
What happens in card games is what I fear. When you have a game where 'the interesting part is building', a meta evolves around the most successful build. Then everyone who likes other builds, leaves. Then the players who like, or are willing to play the strong build, claim 'see, the interesting part of the game is playing'. Because the now decks are similar again.
I prefer when the underlying mechanics are similar without all the meta pigeonholing. More people are happier.
I love the idea of having a group figma to help visualize some of these underlying mechanics for our discussions.
So... tempting.
But then we'd have to worry about 'group management', and all the drama from 'vandalism of the whiteboard' and 'people feeling excluded', and if not those 'who is in charge of updating the whiteboard' and 'clique bias'... ugh...
On the other hand, some of this stuff really makes more sense on a board...
Greetings,
With all the talk about the player's movement and mechanics for combat, I had a realization that we also need to talk about how mobs (and bosses) will interact with the player in combat.
Currently, mobs will make a straight line toward you until in range, where they will stay firmly planted and swing at you. The server, as far as I can tell, always calculates whether or not you were hit based on RNG and stats rather than looking at whether or not the enemy strike made contact with your hitbox. It appears that strafing in circles around a mob for example has no effect on whether or not it hits you. If you’re near it, it hits you unless the server says you “evaded”. Gross. This leads to walking up to a mob, and doing exactly what it does: standing still and holding the attack key (and throwing some abilities at it). This is mind-numbingly boring.
Additionally, this results in a contest between who can withstand more damage. Plenty of examples of this exist but what sparked this thought was the intro to this video. Look at the very beginning, where he’s fighting a boss called Jermaine, Torment of Illwind. The fight takes place standing still, until the player realizes he is going to lose based on which health bar is going down faster, along with an AOE from the boss, and only then does he use any movement, to turn and run. Movement is pointless in combat currently (except for a few telegraphed AOE attacks shown on the ground).
I propose some solutions to counter the issue above, that I feel are very necessary for a good PvE experience:
1- The mobs should have some variety with how they engage the player (maybe they rush you, maybe they try to get around you to attack from the side or back, etc) including strafing or even dodging (some mobs maybe, not all) rather than sitting still and attacking unless the player steps back or turns to run.
2- The player's hitbox should matter, just like the mob hitbox should. I believe we saw Steven demonstrate that when swinging a sword in a horizontal arc, all mobs within the arc are hit. This is good. We need the mob's attacks to operate the same way. If you’re in their attack arc, you’re hit, if you step out of the way of the swing, you’re not hit. Same goes for bosses. Imagine the fight I mentioned above (which you can witness with the video link), with the boss "Jermaine" but with the ability to side step the those sword strikes. Now you have a reason to be moving around AND actually watching what the boss is doing rather than mindlessly staring at both health bars and spamming all your hotkeys. If you could see the boss is winding up for an attack, you know it's time to dodge (and based on what type of attack is coming, you know whether to step left, right, back or dodge roll).
*And finally, a few things I thought of later in this thread that would be enough for me, and probably many others to feel good with the combat:
- Dedicated block (assigned to RMB for example) for weapons that make sense
- Light and heavy attacks for basic attacking. Click for light, hold and release (or use a modifier like shift+LMB) for heavy.
These add enough depth to combat, and enough player-choice in between ability cooldowns to be engaging for most players whether action or tab. It’s a little more than what tabby players are used to but not hard at all, and a lot less than what action players are used to. It’s a good compromise. Help me get this in front of intrepid if you agree.
I'm open to a better title for this thread by the way. Hard to come up with exactly what to call this specific topic.
Please share your thoughts and feel free to either agree with the points I made or completely rip them apart.
My issue is I don’t think you can have these action gameplay elements as suggested and also have a tab system, they don’t mix. You either go BDO, NW, dark souls or you go GW2 as broad stroke combat choices. That’s why I’m an advocate of enhanced tab. In terms of action this would still include dodge rolling, aoe targetting, cone effect targetting, reticle aimed instant skillshots i.e. a fireball shoots fast at the hit box of a player being near instant like a gun shot rather than like an arrow that has a slow travel time and reticle aimed channelled skillshots like prismatic beam.
The topic of having action and tab elements working side by side as been discussed in previous pages and it could work fine for both types of players, but you've just reminded me that I need to add those bullet points to the OP. Thank you.
I agree with your first sentence, even though I'm also very open to a hybrid compromise. But what really perplexes me is your final sentence. Could you explain please? BDO was PvP focused and had no dungeon or raid content and that, in my opinion, is why it lost a lot of it's audience fairly fast. I for one made it through 1 year in the game and realized "holy crap this game has no point to it besides staying relevant in PvP".
PvE in Ashes is not going to be instanced, for the most part.
This means that any PvE worth a damn is open world.
In Ashes, that means it is subject to PvP.
So, any PvE encounter in the game has to be designed where you can take it on while also taking on other players in PvP.
Any raid encounter that can be killed while you are also engaged in PvP is by necessity fairly boring if you are able to take it on without that PvP.
Basically, in an open world PvP game, the challenge with PvE mobs is the PvP around them.
The only way to add in PvE mobs that are good as PvE mobs is to remove that PvP element, which is not likely to be something Ashes does.
The fact PVE encounters are open-world should add an even stricter requirement that they have more depth. Along with this, I think that bosses shouldn't be seen as chests with legs, to even consider taking your attention off it to focus on players should result in people dying very quickly to it. They should be a walking hazard.
It will be akin to content from Archeage (one of Stevens biggest influences for this game). I spent many hours taking on a specific red dragon in that game, at times with hundred of players from each faction around, and often with everyone leaving without anyone having killed said dragon.
I've also killed it in a few minutes with a handful of players simply because there was no opposition.
It's funny you mention that specific boss because I really looked forward to it, but, it would have to be one of the most disappointing open-world encounters I've experienced in my life. It felt so close to being good, so close to greatness, but alas...
It's probably one of the better looking dragons in an MMO, but it lacked weight, aggression and it feels like you're fighting an entity rather than an actual creature and it shouldn't feel like that. Eventually, people will learn the tells because it is a game, but there should be more depth to bosses than what games in the genre currently bring to the table.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Azherae hmm let me try to balance these hypothetical scenarios and mechanics based on what your telling me...
All weapons and classes can block using the rough damage mitigation formula I previously posted however all classes, except Tanks, blocking with a shield get about 85% front and 75% back pre-mitigation damage. All Weapons and classes have stamina/mana regeneration speed reduced while blocking.
Tanks would get about a 15% increase to front and back pre-mitigation from damage to all weapons except shields while blocking. Shields gives about 100% front and 85% back damage pre-mitigation. Stamina regeneration speed reduction while blocking is reduced by about 15%.
Rogues get about a 10% increase to pre-mitigation from damage when using light weapons, like a dagger, and about 20% increase to pre-mitigation from damage when dual wielding, while blocking. Rogues can gain a weapon skill that removes blocking but changes it to a parry when using a light weapon, such as daggers. This parry skill when timed correctly reflects X amount of damage based on X stat and increases by X% damage when dual wielding.
Just to add more scenarios, Mages get about a 15% increase to pre-mitigation from damage while using a wand or spell book. Mana regeneration speed reduction while blocking is reduced by about 15%.
Do these examples seem to be a reasonable way of balancing based on your feedback?
EDIT: I've finally finished editing and apologize for the confusions
Let's assume for the sake of argument that Fighters can't block while using two swords. If the counterargument is 'well Fighters are a class that should be able to block' then I'll just say 'Bard' instead because I have "Dual Wield Bard" data too.
"Why can't I block?"
"Because you chose not to use a shield and classes should be different."
"But blocking is part of the base game PvP interaction. I just want to Dual Wield and block with my offhand."
"If you want to block, you should equip a shield."
"But I want to be a dual wielding Fighter and fight good in PvP and 1v1. Am I getting tons more damage because I Dual Wield, then?"
"No that would be bad for balance." OR "Sure, that's what helps make you different."
"But shields mitigate so much damage!" OR "Well that's fine shields basically don't do much anyway."
"Well, if you want that style, use a shield. Classes should be different to make the game more interesting."
"But now I'm not interested at all! You took away my ability to play the way I want to."
"Well, then this game isn't for you."
You're approaching this from the view that I "only" believe a shield, two-handed sword or staff can block. I don't have the weapons list in front of me and I think for the sake of brevity it worked fine to say "these weapons make sense to block with, subject to change". So sure, I would have no problem with Dual Weild swords to be able to block but then what exactly is the point of the shield? This is where my idea and @Ugoogee 's ideas mesh perfectly fine.
Let me try to really clear this up the best I can right now. Preface: It's already confirmed by Intrepid that even though all classes *can* use all weapons, they won't be as effective with weapons that don't suit their class.
Next: Active block should be available to the Tank class on all weapons. Active block should be available to non-tank classes on certain weapons. The shield specifically would have the highest damage mitigation. I am not here to discuss which weapons should be above or below other weapons on the mitigation ladder. That is a non-issue for now. If a Tank uses a shield, and uses active block, they have the highest possible damage mitigation in the game. If a Rogue uses a shield, not only do they have the active "Counter" but they also have active "Block" now. These would be two different keys bound to whatever you want, call them "active skill 1" and "active skill 2". If they use block, they will not have the same damage mitigation that the Tank w/shield has. It's not how their class is meant to be played but it's totally possible to go against the grain and do it. Again, being able to do anything you want, but not be as effective if it's not what you're meant to be doing is already confirmed for the game.
Another reiteration on PvP: All classes, with my model, would "fight good" in PvP. It makes for a much better PvP experience if your weapon sandbox actually has variety. You take a shield as an offhand if you want to block really well, or you take a sword offhand if you want to output more damage. You'd take a Two-Handed if you want to do big slow damage and kinda block, or a pair of daggers if you want to do real fast small damage and not block, presumably because you know how to use your mobility instead. Not everyone wants to block, and not everyone should have one. It's a tradeoff. I'm not sure what the argument to that is. You should have tradeoffs based on your class and weapon choice.
You can't 'block' a Black Hole, in my mind. You can block Divine Censure better than you can block Castigation, etc. And at that point we'd be into the type of balance tuning that is probably out of the scope of a forum discussion unless you want to crunch the entire whiteboard worth of numbers.
I agree with this. Some abilities just don't make sense to block, or should at least be less mitigated by a block. I could take it or leave it though, and we probably don't need to get into the weeds on this just yet, but if you want to then feel free.
If a Dual Wield Sword Rogue has enough natural Evasion to make up for not having a Shield, then they are broken as soon as they pick up a Shield, unless you 'restrict them from being good with shields' or 'only raised their Evasion when they were Dual Wielding' (also fine, as long as it suits your model, I only dislike these because making things complex for average players is dangerous for longevity).
Not necessarily broken. We aren't talking about giving them a raw evasion stat that will just magically "evade" damage even if they didn't move a muscle. That's like the game basically playing itself at that point. If you recall, I'm against that and instead favor crit chance, crit damage, (and/or) balance stats to give you some RNG stats if you want. You'll have to dodge for yourself, or block, or counter, or move your body in some way to get away from damage.
Also probably important to note that the DPS with a sword/shield would be lower than dual swords, so the Rogue is giving up DPS for blocking, not just gaining block without losing anything. Furthermore, a Rogue with a shield wont mitigate as much damage with their active block as a Tank with shield would. To compensate, the Rogue could of course have the active "counter" we've discussed. This Rogue would have a very tanky build which would result in less DPS, for another avenue to avoid damage. Do I personally understand why they'd do it? No. But it's not broken in a good or bad way.
I'm saying that if you want PvP to be interesting in every matchup (regardless of exact balance), all classes must be able to Active Block with all weapons. The specifics of how much that Active Block helps, can be tweaked by class or weapon, but you have to avoid 'people playing a different game' under that condition.
Why do you feel PvP would be more interesting if everyone can block? Knowing which opponents can or can't block you, counter you, dodge you, out damage you, etc makes it far more interesting. We can't all be on the same playing field in this kind of game. This isn't Halo, where all players have the same starting weapon and the exact same movement options.
Some class/weapon kits will be better off blocking, some will be better off countering, or dodging, or stealthing, or being a glass cannon, etc. If I have a greatsword and I'm coming after the mage who has a spell book or a wand, I should not be expecting a block when I make a big heavy swing, I should win that fight easily up close, or lose it at a distance. That's where group gameplay comes in. Another player could/should be near that mage to help stop me when I charge at them. If not, the mage dies for being caught totally alone and exposed. That's good gameplay. Don't let them block with their book so they can survive just enough to obliterate me with their high damage spells. They were unfortunate enough to be alone, and I seized the opportunity to close the gap. Assuming I succeed in closing the gap, I win.
What happens in card games is what I fear. When you have a game where 'the interesting part is building', a meta evolves around the most successful build. Then everyone who likes other builds, leaves. Then the players who like, or are willing to play the strong build, claim 'see, the interesting part of the game is playing'. Because the now decks are similar again.
I prefer when the underlying mechanics are similar without all the meta pigeonholing. More people are happier.
Deck diversity is always there. What kills it is when cards come out that are so unbelievably broken that you would be a fool to play without them, and thus you end up with a tiny pool of viable decks. And that's when, hopefully, card bans come out in a reasonable amount of time. I get how these "decks" apply to the "classes" of AoC. But we're already going to have a totally different deck with each class that we pick. No getting around that. We can all share from a pool of similar cards (weapons) and even share a few similar cards from eachother's decks (secondary class), but we're all going to have different core decks. And some WILL beat others. However, unlike in the card game example, being good or bad at your class and weapon will make a difference as well. Great players can make bad kits work, or average kits great. And bad players, well, they'll either have fun doing whatever the heck they want to do, or they'll use a good kit. But they'll already be doing that regardless of whether they do or don't have access to an active block.
Hopefully, these posts will suffice and allow us to reach an agreement or be closer to one.
I don't think we'll reach any agreement, but that's not necessary. We fundamentally disagree on 'what makes things interesting' at a point where there's not likely to be any middle ground, but that's no issue, we can have two 'whiteboards'.
If I thought you were 'wrong' I would try to convince you, but I believe your position is just 'different' and I disprefer it, which makes it a decision for Intrepid. In short, the numbers don't work to create an experience I would expect to enjoy, but that's me.
I believe all weapons should be able to block. I believe all classes should be able to block. I don't personally see a need to make that ability be part of diversity, as I don't see the benefit of it. And by that I mean, I can see there is a thing it does, and I disagree that the thing it does, is a benefit.
From what I've seen on forums there are definitely some people who believe that higher distinguishing between classes is good, so you should continue to represent those people.
EDIT: I almost forgot the main part, now you and @Ugoogee can move to discussing 'how much mitigation a Shield is'.
On 'my' whiteboard it is only 20-25%, and 'my' whiteboard is the one with the RNG evasion chance and all that stuff, so you can ignore it.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm saying that if you want PvP to be interesting in every matchup (regardless of exact balance), all classes must be able to Active Block with all weapons. The specifics of how much that Active Block helps, can be tweaked by class or weapon, but you have to avoid 'people playing a different game' under that condition.
If one doesn't care about every PvP matchup being interesting, and perceive that the game benefits from 'things that you can do/design because you chose not to give everyone Active Block', then great. I personally dislike it, but that's a decision that could be made quite reasonably. It's not to enable balance though. Because the more similar everyone is, the more balanced things are.
I feel that making any given interaction less interesting is suboptimal. I design card games with this in mind so I have a bias. Some card games are about 'building your deck to be perfect at what it does'. It crushes the opponent if their deck is weak to it. The interesting part of the game is 'building'. Some are about 'decks having constraints that make them similar, and you must therefore react and know what you are doing in every game. The interesting part of the game is 'playing'.
What happens in card games is what I fear. When you have a game where 'the interesting part is building', a meta evolves around the most successful build. Then everyone who likes other builds, leaves. Then the players who like, or are willing to play the strong build, claim 'see, the interesting part of the game is playing'. Because the now decks are similar again.
I prefer when the underlying mechanics are similar without all the meta pigeonholing. More people are happier.
Hmmn. Well...
In Neverwinter Online, block/dodge/blink/roll were based on class.
I think Daggers probably don't need Active Block, but I would expect those choosing Daggers to have a class ability, like Blink or Damage Mitigation or Evasion that would take the place of Active Block.
Ashes isn't designed for 1v1, so I think that balance shouldn't be an issue.
(I haven't experienced that card game scenario, so I can't really comment on that.)
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Active block should be available to the Tank class on all weapons. Active block should be available to non-tank classes on certain weapons. The shield specifically would have the highest damage mitigation. I am not here to discuss which weapons should be above or below other weapons on the mitigation ladder. That is a non-issue for now. If a Tank uses a shield, and uses active block, they have the highest possible damage mitigation in the game. If a Rogue uses a shield, not only do they have the active "Counter" but they also have active "Block" now. These would be two different keys bound to whatever you want, call them "active skill 1" and "active skill 2". If they use block, they will not have the same damage mitigation that the Tank w/shield has. It's not how their class is meant to be played but it's totally possible to go against the grain and do it. Again, being able to do anything you want, but not be as effective if it's not what you're meant to be doing is already confirmed for the game.
Tank probably should not have Active Block on all weapons.
If they want to use Active Block, they use a weapon with Active Block - just like any other class.
I don't know what "Active Counter" is. My expectation would be that a Rogue would use Active Roll/Dodge instead of Active Block. If the Rogue chooses to us a Shield for Active Block, they would not be able to Active Roll/Dodge simultaneously. It's one or the other.
If the Tank's Damage Mitigation from gear and Active Skills stack with the Active Block of the Shield, the Rogue's Evasion from from gear and Active Skills should also "stack" with the Active Block of the Shield.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Active block should be available to the Tank class on all weapons. Active block should be available to non-tank classes on certain weapons. The shield specifically would have the highest damage mitigation. I am not here to discuss which weapons should be above or below other weapons on the mitigation ladder. That is a non-issue for now. If a Tank uses a shield, and uses active block, they have the highest possible damage mitigation in the game. If a Rogue uses a shield, not only do they have the active "Counter" but they also have active "Block" now. These would be two different keys bound to whatever you want, call them "active skill 1" and "active skill 2". If they use block, they will not have the same damage mitigation that the Tank w/shield has. It's not how their class is meant to be played but it's totally possible to go against the grain and do it. Again, being able to do anything you want, but not be as effective if it's not what you're meant to be doing is already confirmed for the game.
Tank probably should not have Active Block on all weapons.
If they want to use Active Block, they use a weapon with Active Block - just like any other class.
I don't know what "Active Counter" is. My expectation would be that a Rogue would use Active Roll/Dodge instead of Active Block. If the Rogue chooses to us a Shield for Active Block, they would not be able to Active Roll/Dodge simultaneously. It's one or the other.
If the Tank's Damage Mitigation from gear and Active Skills stack with the Active Block of the Shield, the Rogue's Evasion from from gear and Active Skills should also "stack" with the Active Block of the Shield.
I could live with Tank needing to use a weapon that has a blocking ability in order to use active block. But then also take away the other hypothetical class abilities as well, such as the "active counter" idea. To explain what that is, it's simply a counter attack that you have to time. Imagine the block allowing you to hold the key as long as you want, and block damage. This would be something you time and it reflects damage.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don't think we'll reach any agreement, but that's not necessary. We fundamentally disagree on 'what makes things interesting' at a point where there's not likely to be any middle ground, but that's no issue, we can have two 'whiteboards'.
If I thought you were 'wrong' I would try to convince you, but I believe your position is just 'different' and I disprefer it, which makes it a decision for Intrepid. In short, the numbers don't work to create an experience I would expect to enjoy, but that's me.
I believe all weapons should be able to block. I believe all classes should be able to block. I don't personally see a need to make that ability be part of diversity, as I don't see the benefit of it. And by that I mean, I can see there is a thing it does, and I disagree that the thing it does, is a benefit.
From what I've seen on forums there are definitely some people who believe that higher distinguishing between classes is good, so you should continue to represent those people.
EDIT: I almost forgot the main part, now you and @Ugoogee can move to discussing 'how much mitigation a Shield is'.
On 'my' whiteboard it is only 20-25%, and 'my' whiteboard is the one with the RNG evasion chance and all that stuff, so you can ignore it.
Alright so how do you propose you'd convince someone to play Tank if everyone can block, and especially with every weapon? I don't like either, but at least for a compromise you cannot have both. Either everyone can block but with certain weapons, or one class can block but with all weapons. What is the point of the tank at all aside from maybe some of the abilities for group mitigation and walls like we discussed in the other thread? Seems that Tanks would not be used much for PvP if everyone else can block and with whatever they happen to be holding in their hand.
If I understand correctly from your post you're not necessarily trying to find a middle ground but trying to come up with a model of your own. Well, I'm not interested in competing for intrepids attention over models and instead think the most productive and potentially successful thing we can do is continue trying to find ways our ideas *can* work together rather than only pointing out why they *can't*.
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HumblePuffinMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What if you put weapon block on the weapon skill tree for weapons that it makes sense? Shield gets block by default since it’s what it’s for, other weapons can skill for block to varying degrees. This takes it off of certain classes being allowed to block and puts it back into the weapons. If you take block on your wand/tome it should break immediately because you’re trying to block with a wand/tome and you deserve it.
I don't think we'll reach any agreement, but that's not necessary. We fundamentally disagree on 'what makes things interesting' at a point where there's not likely to be any middle ground, but that's no issue, we can have two 'whiteboards'.
If I thought you were 'wrong' I would try to convince you, but I believe your position is just 'different' and I disprefer it, which makes it a decision for Intrepid. In short, the numbers don't work to create an experience I would expect to enjoy, but that's me.
I believe all weapons should be able to block. I believe all classes should be able to block. I don't personally see a need to make that ability be part of diversity, as I don't see the benefit of it. And by that I mean, I can see there is a thing it does, and I disagree that the thing it does, is a benefit.
From what I've seen on forums there are definitely some people who believe that higher distinguishing between classes is good, so you should continue to represent those people.
EDIT: I almost forgot the main part, now you and @Ugoogee can move to discussing 'how much mitigation a Shield is'.
On 'my' whiteboard it is only 20-25%, and 'my' whiteboard is the one with the RNG evasion chance and all that stuff, so you can ignore it.
Alright so how do you propose you'd convince someone to play Tank if everyone can block, and especially with every weapon? I don't like either, but at least for a compromise you cannot have both. Either everyone can block but with certain weapons, or one class can block but with all weapons. What is the point of the tank at all aside from maybe some of the abilities for group mitigation and walls like we discussed in the other thread? Seems that Tanks would not be used much for PvP if everyone else can block and with whatever they happen to be holding in their hand.
If I understand correctly from your post you're not necessarily trying to find a middle ground but trying to come up with a model of your own. Well, I'm not interested in competing for intrepids attention over models and instead think the most productive and potentially successful thing we can do is continue trying to find ways our ideas *can* work together rather than only pointing out why they *can't*.
Sure, you know I'm always down for that, but bear in mind that it may take quite a while due to the 'distance' we are from each other. So let's give it a try.
Unfortunately since everything is still in the air, I'll have to reference some of my other compilations, but you shouldn't need to read them generally, it's just for context to show you where my data is coming from. Here's the Tank one. The abilities are all speculation, but they are also all things people requested, which is why they're in the concept..
So I'd say that Tanks would bring to the table 'A circle of defense bonus for everyone', 'a small shield against damage other than Ultimate Defense', 'Ultimate Defense itself', and 'the ability to block attacks on people standing behind them, for a duration'.
Now, if a Tank is able to raise defenses or block for anyone behind them in small group PvP, they hit the requirement of a lot of players who want to play Tank. Many of them 'want to be able to do something else in PvP'. In fact, their biggest ask was to 'make it so that threat generation had some equivalent'. They don't seem to see the value in 'being able to block' if they can be ignored.
Here's the part where we will take a while to agree, I feel. I think this is enough. For the Tank players I know personally, this would be enough. For the entire design of some absolutely not MMORPG games I play, it's more than enough.
I also need to add one thing about the way I perceive balance in the 'Rock Paper Scissors' thing that Intrepid mentions. Others have tried to figure out 'which classes are the Rock, Paper, and Scissors', looking for the counters. I don't know where I mentioned it, but I don't see it this way.
What I see is 'Mitigation beats Cooldown based damage, Cooldown based damage beats Attrition, and Attrition beats Mitigation'. This is relevant because I perceive that weapons are going to skew the more balanced classes like Bard toward one of these three.
Basically, I don't understand your stance yet. I don't have any data that implies that people 'won't play Tank because everyone else can block'. If they don't want to play Tank because they think other classes 'get more than them', I don't perceive 'subtracting blocking from everyone else' to be the solution. If they don't want to play Tank because 'I could just play another Class and block', that's almost saying that Tank in itself is useless outside of the ability to block.
And after all that, I still feel like the numbers don't work well, nor do I 'want' the 'Evasion Rogue dash-fest' that it would almost have to turn into.
If blocking mitigates considerable damage, and you choose not to block, you either need 'some amount of evasion to reach the same mitigation (and Tanks will still have Ultimate Defense and probably more HP than you), or 'so much more damage that you can overwhelm that mitigation offered by blocking on Average', which then empowers you to defeat certain other classes much faster. In which case then Tanks take that weapon, use Ultimate Defense and don't bother to block, they already have mitigation, and because they have it they can afford to build for big damage and just pop Ult.Defense when they're low (not to mention how many plan to just play Paladin).
That's cool with some people. I personally don't like it. Balance starts to fray at the edges really fast in that case, and the meta becomes very rigid. It also causes stress on the capacity to design fair weapons, and increases the chances something bad will slip through. And once it's through, if you don't catch it fast, as a designer you get a lot of flak for 'nerfing the new Greatsword that people spent so much time getting'. Very negative.
If your goal was 'to make classes more likely to choose certain weapons', sure, but that's almost explicitly not Intrepid's goal. Consider the Rogue who, for some reason, doesn't want to even take Stealth or whatever 'roll evade' skill is available. This is possible in Ashes. If there are good enough other reasons to choose Rogue over another Archetype, this is still valid.
So our hypothetical 'no Stealth, no secondary Active Dodge' Rogue that still wants to use Dual Wielded Daggers for some reason has lost a mechanic that is 'available to many other classes' without getting the 'thing you figured was the reason the Rogue didn't need that mechanic'.
When you could just let everyone block (and for various PvP reasons this is better design anyway).
I think that's practically like a Tank choosing not to use abilities that generate Threat or Damage Mitigation or a Mage choosing not to use Elemental Damage.
It might be possible for a Rogue to not use any Stealth abilities, but most likely all their other abilities would add either Evasion or Bleeds.
Anyway...
Seems like Active Block should probably be more a Weapon Skill than an Archetype Active Skill.
Typically, there are other weapons that can Active Block besides just Shields.
Seems like Dual Wield will probably be a Weapon Skill rather than an Archetype Active Skill.
Where any class can use any weapon, I don't think Active Block and Dual-Wielding will be defined by class.
Forgot to respond to this one, so...
I actually find this quite common. Rogues, particularly Dual Wield Rogues, tend to put out a lot of damage and armor penetration. I was reminded whilst watching an ESO video (I make no claims about the overall quality of ESO) that once a Rogue has enough damage output, they might still want Stealth, but they don't care about the Evasion skills as much in a game with a higher TTK.
I played Rogue in Neverwinter and didn't care about Evasion in PvP. I play Thief sometimes in FFXI and I don't care about Evasion in their PvP (noting again that it's very limited PvP). I play Kunoichi in BDO and Evasion build makes you explicitly less successful in their PvP (I'm not high enough Gear Score nor good enough at BDO for this to count, I think, but 'friendly duels' always make me take off my Evasion gear).
I play the Rogue-like characters in Paladins and for a bit when I played Overwatch and I don't care about Evasion then either. I don't use Genji's/Androxus' attack reflect for the protection, I use it because it hurts the enemy, and if I'm already close, there's no need for it. Cut through.
'Evasion' skills on Rogue are 'how to flank my opponent' to me, if I have to actually use them for Evading things, things are going poorly, so the better I get at a game, the less I want them and the more I want damage.
In a higher TTK game, if I do 40% of your health in one attack, and then another 10-15% with bleeds or similar, then the optimal strategy is almost never 'and now I dodge around, moving myself away from the person I want to keep stabbing, for a while'. The optimal strategy is to stab repeatedly until dead. And the times this doesn't work, it's because the Rogue is so squishy that somehow they can make up this 40% deficit. In Ashes, with a Dual Wielding Dagger Rogue (because if Daggers don't offer some level of armor penetration or debilitation what's the point of them relative to other weapons?), who has 'a bonus to damage because they didn't choose to carry a shield', I would never expect the optimal DW Rogue strat to involve 'actually dodging things' unless Rogues sucked in general.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What if you put weapon block on the weapon skill tree for weapons that it makes sense? Shield gets block by default since it’s what it’s for, other weapons can skill for block to varying degrees. This takes it off of certain classes being allowed to block and puts it back into the weapons. If you take block on your wand/tome it should break immediately because you’re trying to block with a wand/tome and you deserve it.
I’m fine with this also as a possible solution. This seems more like something that matches what @Azherae is asking for but in a *balanced* way that still has distinction between weapons and a choice for the player whether they really need to block with a certain weapon or not.
What if you put weapon block on the weapon skill tree for weapons that it makes sense? Shield gets block by default since it’s what it’s for, other weapons can skill for block to varying degrees. This takes it off of certain classes being allowed to block and puts it back into the weapons. If you take block on your wand/tome it should break immediately because you’re trying to block with a wand/tome and you deserve it.
I’m fine with this also as a possible solution. This seems more like something that matches what @Azherae is asking for but in a *balanced* way that still has distinction between weapons and a choice for the player whether they really need to block with a certain weapon or not.
I should probably clarify, that I have absolutely no problem working on, and supporting, only your concept, @Cypher. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean I feel like it's a good idea to compete with it, if most others also want/like it. This isn't 'a game built for me' after all.
However I don't have any experience building a balanced enough concept, from it, so I may not be as much help. As always, I'll compile whatever people suggest, but I can't help convince them. I've tried to get it working based on what we know, and the numbers never line up on my side for something that doesn't have a constricted meta.
But I think that if Intrepid were to start with yours, it'd be better. If they 'started with everyone able to block', people might not be able to figure out 'what they feel is wrong with the game or the combat in an articulable way', and it might slip through and just be 'average' instead of great.
Whereas 'Blocking isn't for everyone', if it turns out that somehow Intrepid also can't get the numbers to work, the players will let them know, since that would imply balance issues that other number-cruncher types would see. At that point all you would need to watch out for or worry about is the people who 'ruin the card games'. The people who go 'well obviously you're supposed to build this way, other builds aren't even intended by the Devs, git gud'.
So it's a chance to make something that people like, with a risk, whereas what I suggest is bland and average by comparison, for less risk. Plus, this way, if I make a mistake in calculations, you'd have more people who could do the same calculations and see the truth.
This way also results in me continuing to try to get the numbers to work, instead of just going 'nah I can't see it and don't care so let's move on'.
Which brings us back to 'how much mitigation is blocking?' if you're willing to accept this instead, for now.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What if you put weapon block on the weapon skill tree for weapons that it makes sense? Shield gets block by default since it’s what it’s for, other weapons can skill for block to varying degrees. This takes it off of certain classes being allowed to block and puts it back into the weapons. If you take block on your wand/tome it should break immediately because you’re trying to block with a wand/tome and you deserve it.
I’m fine with this also as a possible solution. This seems more like something that matches what @Azherae is asking for but in a *balanced* way that still has distinction between weapons and a choice for the player whether they really need to block with a certain weapon or not.
I should probably clarify, that I have absolutely no problem working on, and supporting, only your concept, @Cypher. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean I feel like it's a good idea to compete with it, if most others also want/like it. This isn't 'a game built for me' after all.
However I don't have any experience building a balanced enough concept, from it, so I may not be as much help. As always, I'll compile whatever people suggest, but I can't help convince them. I've tried to get it working based on what we know, and the numbers never line up on my side for something that doesn't have a constricted meta.
But I think that if Intrepid were to start with yours, it'd be better. If they 'started with everyone able to block', people might not be able to figure out 'what they feel is wrong with the game or the combat in an articulable way', and it might slip through and just be 'average' instead of great.
Whereas 'Blocking isn't for everyone', if it turns out that somehow Intrepid also can't get the numbers to work, the players will let them know, since that would imply balance issues that other number-cruncher types would see. At that point all you would need to watch out for or worry about is the people who 'ruin the card games'. The people who go 'well obviously you're supposed to build this way, other builds aren't even intended by the Devs, git gud'.
So it's a chance to make something that people like, with a risk, whereas what I suggest is bland and average by comparison, for less risk. Plus, this way, if I make a mistake in calculations, you'd have more people who could do the same calculations and see the truth.
This way also results in me continuing to try to get the numbers to work, instead of just going 'nah I can't see it and don't care so let's move on'.
Which brings us back to 'how much mitigation is blocking?' if you're willing to accept this instead, for now.
Alright, understood.
Well, so if we were to go off the model of "certain weapons can block", I would suggest this tiered list:
1- Shields
2- Two-Handed Melee weapons (Axes, Maces and Swords will all have a Two-Hand variant)
3- Spears, Polearms, *Lances (*maybe)
4- Staves
I would have Tier 1 mitigate something around 80% of the damage, Tier 2: 60%, Tier 3: 40%, and Tier 4: 20% (what do you expect, you're wielding a magical rod of death, you can't have good blocks too lol).
Next I would propose that the Tank class have an optional passive tree that they can spec into which raises the damage mitigation up to 10%. So a Tank, if fully specced into block, can reach 90%, 70%, 50% and 30% for each of those weapon tiers instead.
Ok. I'll give the least charitable counterpoint, since I am 'trying to break it'.
2H Axe Fighter against Tank, 2H Axe Fighter against Dual Wield Fighter. 2H Axe Fighter against Stave Bard.
2H Axe Fighter uses 'Leaping Smash' or whatever. Tank blocks with shield.
Instead of doing 20% health damage it does 2%. On a 60 second TTK, melee generally does 3% damage (I think we all just accept this? Let me know if not). 2H Axe Fighter now needs to hit Tank with 6 melee attacks more than before. TTK extended by around 12s.
On the DW Fighter, they had to use some counter or evasion ability. IF they succeed, they get probably 0% damage at the cost of some mana. Maybe even did damage. TTK extended by 12s.
The Stave Bard also blocks, instead of 20% damage it does 16%. TTK extended by only around 2s. In order for this to not result in a state where the 2H Axe Fighter always wins, the Bard has to do their kill damage 10s faster than the Tank needs to. So they need to have around 20% more damage than the Tank does. (any considerations that Tanks should be more capable than Bards in general are handled by Ultimate Defense and likely much higher HP).
We can't go 'well Bards have DoT that can cover that 20% damage in the 50 seconds'. They have that if they equip shield. It has to be resultant from the Staff. There must be something about using Staff, that, by itself, raises the Bard's damage by 20%.
Therefore Staves must be offensively more powerful for Bards (and technically for everyone else, if you want people to actually feel like they have the option to use every weapon) than 2 Handed Axes. In the case of that comparison, it's 0.6 (block mitigation) x 0.2 (percentage damage would have been taken) to give us a TTK extension difference of 6 seconds. Decent. For 'balance' all you have to do is make it so that Staves result in being able to kill the opponent 10% faster than 2H Axes.
Assuming of course that you only block the one ability. For multiple abilities, just roughly multiply with a diminishing return. Average fight 5 abilities blocked for what would be a total of 50% damage, unblocked, 2H Axe reduces this to 20%. Staff reduces it to 40%.
Make Staves 20% stronger damage than 2H Axes and balance is restored.
I’d think you could add 1H maces, axes, and swords for blocking mitigation. I wouldn’t include daggers in there.
Random thought: Are you taking the attacking weapon into account for mitigation?
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CypherMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2021
@Azherae I can’t see anything wrong with your proposal. Just making staves 20% stronger than 2H Axe doesn’t break my model at all. I’d expect staves (magic in general) to be pretty powerful.
@CROW3 I don’t know about that. The weapons I’ve listed already account for a little under half of the weapons that will be available. Also, the advantage of a 1 handed sword is that you get faster attack speed than 2 handed but you also get to equip 2 of them, meaning you’re not losing much damage. Maybe even none at all, but we haven’t really broken down how we want those to be balanced yet.
Comments
Once per week is the standard.
Games with instances use weekly lockout timers on raids. Games like EQ, EQ2 and Archeage have weekly spawn timers on actual boss encounters (shorter timers on lower tier encounters).
Even BDO has encounters that only spawn weekly (Vell being one, from memory). It has other mobs (Offin, Garmoth) that spawn three times a week. However, this game has such badly designed PvE content that it isn't really worth discussing, let alone thinking any other game would follow suit.
PSO2 is an ARPG, and so has a different game focus and pace.
Of all the games above, Archeage is the game that Ashes has the most similarity to in terms of the purpose of open world raid encounters. They are a thing to be fought over - and if they are just going to spawn again tomorrow, there is no need to fight over them. A guild could very quickly get all they need from an encounter if it spawns daily - whereas if it spawns weekly they may never get all they need, and thus keep up the fight.
While I would expect some raid encounters to respawn at least daily, the actual boss encounters - the ones people actually want to kill - will almost definitely be weekly by actual necessity of the content type.
While you may say you "would like to see" it differently, we have reason to assume weekly, and no reason to assume anything shorter - and so we must assume weekly unless/until we see otherwise.
In general, during design, one should do the absolute most you can to avoid any situation where two classes are 'playing a different game' in a passive sense. Now, obviously, this doesn't mean 'make everyone entirely the same', some diversity must exist, but whenever you find yourself adding diversity for 'flavor', you run the risk of creating an imbalance you didn't think of, and upsetting some niche player for effectively no reason.
"This class has X trait, but not Y trait, this other class has Y trait, but not X."
When the trait in question is 'a modification of something around an average' it works well. When it is 'you get to take this approach and the other doesn't' it tends to need to be limited to single player games.
That is, of course, if you want people to feel free and have variety. A situation that has the chance to lead to a player going 'I could help do this in this situation but I put all my skills into Dagger and my class can't use Daggers to block' feels bad without specifically adding anything to the game.
If your goal was 'to make classes more likely to choose certain weapons', sure, but that's almost explicitly not Intrepid's goal. Consider the Rogue who, for some reason, doesn't want to even take Stealth or whatever 'roll evade' skill is available. This is possible in Ashes. If there are good enough other reasons to choose Rogue over another Archetype, this is still valid.
Actually, it's because the Archetypes are likely to be so well defined with the structure of 'you not only aren't required to take every skill, you can't' (they might mean 'can't take all to max' though), that this happens. A Rogue has reasons to be Rogue that don't necessarily fit a given thing.
So our hypothetical 'no Stealth, no secondary Active Dodge' Rogue that still wants to use Dual Wielded Daggers for some reason has lost a mechanic that is 'available to many other classes' without getting the 'thing you figured was the reason the Rogue didn't need that mechanic'.
It's the same 'danger' as making it so that you need a Shield to block. In Ashes, this isn't great. Tanks don't all want to use Shields. Now Intrepid has to design encounters that either 'require Tanks that don't want to use Shields, to use them anyway', or 'possibly make Shield Tanking overpowered relative to anything else' (so that the Halberd Tank doesn't die constantly). Which then leads to 'Shield nerfs' in the next balance pass...
When you could just let everyone block (and for various PvP reasons this is better design anyway).
All weapons and classes can block using the rough damage mitigation formula I previously posted however all classes, except Tanks, blocking with a shield get about 85% front and 75% back pre-mitigation damage. All Weapons and classes have stamina/mana regeneration speed reduced while blocking.
Tanks would get about a 15% increase to front and back pre-mitigation from damage to all weapons except shields while blocking. Shields gives about 100% front and 85% back damage pre-mitigation. Stamina regeneration speed reduction while blocking is reduced by about 15%.
Rogues get about a 10% increase to pre-mitigation from damage when using light weapons, like a dagger, and about 20% increase to pre-mitigation from damage when dual wielding, while blocking. Rogues can gain a weapon skill that removes blocking but changes it to a parry when using a light weapon, such as daggers. This parry skill when timed correctly reflects X amount of damage based on X stat and increases by X% damage when dual wielding.
Just to add more scenarios, Mages get about a 15% increase to pre-mitigation from damage while using a wand or spell book. Mana regeneration speed reduction while blocking is reduced by about 15%.
Do these examples seem to be a reasonable way of balancing based on your feedback?
EDIT: I've finally finished editing and apologize for the confusions
Well yeah, but that's where the "counter" idea came from. If this silly Rogue didn't want to spec into stealth or even their mobility for some reason, they can still rely on counter to bring something unique but useful to the table. It's like a block but a different flavor that makes sense for a Rogue. Each class should be distinct and since ALL classes can use ALL weapons, they need something to diversify them at least one further layer besides "different hot bar abilities". Adding a unique RMB move would do wonders. Tank's would be block, Rogue's would be counter. Who knows what the other ones would be but I can work on that answer if you'd like.
And specifically for the final sentence of letting everyone block for PvP reasons, I still disagree. I don't believe each class should have equal footing in a 1v1 PvP situation. And that's fine because 1v1s are probably going to be a lot more rare than the other PvP situations, and certainly not the focus. So for a group PvP, you'll need to know which classes you're strong against and which you're weak against.
And last note to reiterate: I do think everyone should be able to block IF they're holding a shield, two-hand sword, or maybe staff. This allows "anyone to have a block" but you don't just get one for no reason. It's always a trade off. Only person who always gets a block is a tank.
My issue is I don’t think you can have these action gameplay elements as suggested and also have a tab system, they don’t mix. You either go BDO, NW, dark souls or you go GW2 as broad stroke combat choices. That’s why I’m an advocate of enhanced tab. In terms of action this would still include dodge rolling, aoe targetting, cone effect targetting, reticle aimed instant skillshots i.e. a fireball shoots fast at the hit box of a player being near instant like a gun shot rather than like an arrow that has a slow travel time and reticle aimed channelled skillshots like prismatic beam.
That's more a question for @Cypher, since you two have competing design goals at the moment.
You took up the stance of 'I'll design for all shields to be strong and for all weapons and classes to block' after what I said. Cypher wants only certain classes to block and is 'arguing' that side.
Let's bring in the hypothetical 'Dual Wield Spin-to-Win Fighter'. They definitely exist, there are at least 3 of them in my data collection if not more. We'll ignore the 'Rogue that wants to use a big 2H mace' for now, since I don't know if their name and request was a joke.
Let's assume for the sake of argument that Fighters can't block while using two swords. If the counterargument is 'well Fighters are a class that should be able to block' then I'll just say 'Bard' instead because I have "Dual Wield Bard" data too.
"Why can't I block?"
"Because you chose not to use a shield and classes should be different."
"But blocking is part of the base game PvP interaction. I just want to Dual Wield and block with my offhand."
"If you want to block, you should equip a shield."
"But I want to be a dual wielding Fighter and fight good in PvP and 1v1. Am I getting tons more damage because I Dual Wield, then?"
"No that would be bad for balance." OR "Sure, that's what helps make you different."
"But shields mitigate so much damage!" OR "Well that's fine shields basically don't do much anyway."
"Well, if you want that style, use a shield. Classes should be different to make the game more interesting."
"But now I'm not interested at all! You took away my ability to play the way I want to."
"Well, then this game isn't for you."
If the final answer in this chain is anything other than 'this game isn't for you', the designer has made a mistake. As long as the designer's goal is 'This is the way I want the game to be, and I have a good reason' then it's fine to tell a player 'find a different game'. I'm only concerned with when a designer doesn't realize they're doing this for no good reason.
The thing Cypher wants is subjective. As a designer I would never do it, I don't consider it important compared to 'letting people express themselves more or less however within the balance structure'. There are people who definitely want their fantasy games to have 'strongly defined identities' and that's valid too. And which of those Ashes is, is up to Intrepid.
I do, however, fear that if the game pushes toward 'more defined identity' it will also 'have no good reason for engaging Action Combat' and therefore weaken the argument.
I have to study a lot of player psychology, particularly their weakpoints and frustration reactions (I teach/coach fighting games) and that's probably why I think this way.
So for you, @Ugoogee, if blocking does that much mitigation on all attacks, it's now incompatible with Cypher's will.
If you want my input, I would tie 'how much of an attack can be blocked' directly into the data for the attack itself. You can't 'block' a Black Hole, in my mind. You can block Divine Censure better than you can block Castigation, etc. And at that point we'd be into the type of balance tuning that is probably out of the scope of a forum discussion unless you want to crunch the entire whiteboard worth of numbers.
I'm down for that, I like doing that, but it is lots of speculation and I prefer to only do it to verify other people's perspectives. So let's verify Cypher's. If the final answer is 'well this game isn't for you, classes should have identity', that's an 'ender'. There's no way to agree and it's best to drop that part of the discussion. If Cypher shifts then you can discuss other aspects of blocking.
I made my second theoretical blocking mechanic as a way of compromise for balance and also allowing class identity but as you said, let's try to verify and understand @Cypher 's thoughts and perspectives.
As of now the intended TTK in Ashes is between 30 and 60 seconds.
Abilities have cooldowns between 8 and 18 seconds.
Therefore most abilities can be used twice in a fight before someone dies. (we'll ignore the fact that healing is 'too strong' for now).
If a player has 5 damage dealing abilities, and enough mana to use them all in one fight (likely, this is an 'input' from another part of the whiteboard), the opponent must be able to survive 5 damage dealing abilities through either defensive skills, consumables, buffs, evasion, or blocking. (this branches off into another part, if normal melee is possible, you have to be able to survive even being targeted by all 5 or no one will care about melee weapons anyway and we will have a pure shield meta).
Most people won't be satisfied if their Abilities do damage similar or less than their melee, regardless of Split Body, AC vs TT, anything. Abilities should be satisfying. If we assume any class that cannot block for any reason, abilities should do 15% of their health, and melee about 3-5%. These numbers can go up with either Evasion abilities, Evasion Stat, Damage mitigation, or Blocking stuff.
Now here's where we get to the problem.
The more you raise those numbers, the more you constrain the meta. If we give Shields a 50% damage mitigation, then Shield just 'makes you die 50% slower'. But your opponent still used their abilities. And their Mana. They now have to wait for cooldowns. It's your 'turn to attack'.
But they block with their shield too. Now the game is 'guessing when to block and waiting on cooldowns'. The unfortunate soul who didn't bring a shield against the Shield carrying Ranger better be really good at dodging compared to that Ranger's accuracy. And maybe that's intended...
This branches off into what I am tentatively calling 'Cypher's whiteboard'. Where 'classes that don't have blocking in certain cases get other defensive stuff'.
Except... they can still equip shields if they want to. And then the whole thing collapses.
If a Dual Wield Sword Rogue has enough natural Evasion to make up for not having a Shield, then they are broken as soon as they pick up a Shield, unless you 'restrict them from being good with shields' or 'only raised their Evasion when they were Dual Wielding' (also fine, as long as it suits your model, I only dislike these because making things complex for average players is dangerous for longevity).
You put a focus group in the room or give them the two different builds, let them feel it out, and see what they say. I don't know what they'd say. I find focus groups extremely hard to predict even when it's for something that seems obvious. I can count the times a focus group did not surprise me on one hand so now I just expect that there will be someone who is opposed to literally anything anyone says.
But that's the method I'm used to. Draw up one middle whiteboard, branch off into the two side ones, ask people which one gives the experience they want, and see what you can merge back into the middle one. You can just crunch numbers yourself with that, though. You can assume the TTK is unchanging and tweak the defensive stats, or 'tweak the stats to what you think is cool and just watch what it does to TTK'. It's all data, so it's all useful.
It might be possible for a Rogue to not use any Stealth abilities, but most likely all their other abilities would add either Evasion or Bleeds.
Anyway...
Seems like Active Block should probably be more a Weapon Skill than an Archetype Active Skill.
Typically, there are other weapons that can Active Block besides just Shields.
Seems like Dual Wield will probably be a Weapon Skill rather than an Archetype Active Skill.
Where any class can use any weapon, I don't think Active Block and Dual-Wielding will be defined by class.
I'm saying that if you want PvP to be interesting in every matchup (regardless of exact balance), all classes must be able to Active Block with all weapons. The specifics of how much that Active Block helps, can be tweaked by class or weapon, but you have to avoid 'people playing a different game' under that condition.
If one doesn't care about every PvP matchup being interesting, and perceive that the game benefits from 'things that you can do/design because you chose not to give everyone Active Block', then great. I personally dislike it, but that's a decision that could be made quite reasonably. It's not to enable balance though. Because the more similar everyone is, the more balanced things are.
I feel that making any given interaction less interesting is suboptimal. I design card games with this in mind so I have a bias. Some card games are about 'building your deck to be perfect at what it does'. It crushes the opponent if their deck is weak to it. The interesting part of the game is 'building'. Some are about 'decks having constraints that make them similar, and you must therefore react and know what you are doing in every game. The interesting part of the game is 'playing'.
What happens in card games is what I fear. When you have a game where 'the interesting part is building', a meta evolves around the most successful build. Then everyone who likes other builds, leaves. Then the players who like, or are willing to play the strong build, claim 'see, the interesting part of the game is playing'. Because the now decks are similar again.
I prefer when the underlying mechanics are similar without all the meta pigeonholing. More people are happier.
So... tempting.
But then we'd have to worry about 'group management', and all the drama from 'vandalism of the whiteboard' and 'people feeling excluded', and if not those 'who is in charge of updating the whiteboard' and 'clique bias'... ugh...
On the other hand, some of this stuff really makes more sense on a board...
The topic of having action and tab elements working side by side as been discussed in previous pages and it could work fine for both types of players, but you've just reminded me that I need to add those bullet points to the OP. Thank you.
The fact PVE encounters are open-world should add an even stricter requirement that they have more depth. Along with this, I think that bosses shouldn't be seen as chests with legs, to even consider taking your attention off it to focus on players should result in people dying very quickly to it. They should be a walking hazard.
It's funny you mention that specific boss because I really looked forward to it, but, it would have to be one of the most disappointing open-world encounters I've experienced in my life. It felt so close to being good, so close to greatness, but alas...
Red Dragon -
It's probably one of the better looking dragons in an MMO, but it lacked weight, aggression and it feels like you're fighting an entity rather than an actual creature and it shouldn't feel like that. Eventually, people will learn the tells because it is a game, but there should be more depth to bosses than what games in the genre currently bring to the table.
You're approaching this from the view that I "only" believe a shield, two-handed sword or staff can block. I don't have the weapons list in front of me and I think for the sake of brevity it worked fine to say "these weapons make sense to block with, subject to change". So sure, I would have no problem with Dual Weild swords to be able to block but then what exactly is the point of the shield? This is where my idea and @Ugoogee 's ideas mesh perfectly fine.
Let me try to really clear this up the best I can right now.
Preface: It's already confirmed by Intrepid that even though all classes *can* use all weapons, they won't be as effective with weapons that don't suit their class.
Next: Active block should be available to the Tank class on all weapons. Active block should be available to non-tank classes on certain weapons. The shield specifically would have the highest damage mitigation. I am not here to discuss which weapons should be above or below other weapons on the mitigation ladder. That is a non-issue for now. If a Tank uses a shield, and uses active block, they have the highest possible damage mitigation in the game. If a Rogue uses a shield, not only do they have the active "Counter" but they also have active "Block" now. These would be two different keys bound to whatever you want, call them "active skill 1" and "active skill 2". If they use block, they will not have the same damage mitigation that the Tank w/shield has. It's not how their class is meant to be played but it's totally possible to go against the grain and do it. Again, being able to do anything you want, but not be as effective if it's not what you're meant to be doing is already confirmed for the game.
Another reiteration on PvP: All classes, with my model, would "fight good" in PvP. It makes for a much better PvP experience if your weapon sandbox actually has variety. You take a shield as an offhand if you want to block really well, or you take a sword offhand if you want to output more damage. You'd take a Two-Handed if you want to do big slow damage and kinda block, or a pair of daggers if you want to do real fast small damage and not block, presumably because you know how to use your mobility instead. Not everyone wants to block, and not everyone should have one. It's a tradeoff. I'm not sure what the argument to that is. You should have tradeoffs based on your class and weapon choice.
I agree with this. Some abilities just don't make sense to block, or should at least be less mitigated by a block. I could take it or leave it though, and we probably don't need to get into the weeds on this just yet, but if you want to then feel free.
Not necessarily broken. We aren't talking about giving them a raw evasion stat that will just magically "evade" damage even if they didn't move a muscle. That's like the game basically playing itself at that point. If you recall, I'm against that and instead favor crit chance, crit damage, (and/or) balance stats to give you some RNG stats if you want. You'll have to dodge for yourself, or block, or counter, or move your body in some way to get away from damage.
Also probably important to note that the DPS with a sword/shield would be lower than dual swords, so the Rogue is giving up DPS for blocking, not just gaining block without losing anything. Furthermore, a Rogue with a shield wont mitigate as much damage with their active block as a Tank with shield would. To compensate, the Rogue could of course have the active "counter" we've discussed. This Rogue would have a very tanky build which would result in less DPS, for another avenue to avoid damage. Do I personally understand why they'd do it? No. But it's not broken in a good or bad way.
Why do you feel PvP would be more interesting if everyone can block? Knowing which opponents can or can't block you, counter you, dodge you, out damage you, etc makes it far more interesting. We can't all be on the same playing field in this kind of game. This isn't Halo, where all players have the same starting weapon and the exact same movement options.
Some class/weapon kits will be better off blocking, some will be better off countering, or dodging, or stealthing, or being a glass cannon, etc. If I have a greatsword and I'm coming after the mage who has a spell book or a wand, I should not be expecting a block when I make a big heavy swing, I should win that fight easily up close, or lose it at a distance. That's where group gameplay comes in. Another player could/should be near that mage to help stop me when I charge at them. If not, the mage dies for being caught totally alone and exposed. That's good gameplay. Don't let them block with their book so they can survive just enough to obliterate me with their high damage spells. They were unfortunate enough to be alone, and I seized the opportunity to close the gap. Assuming I succeed in closing the gap, I win.
Deck diversity is always there. What kills it is when cards come out that are so unbelievably broken that you would be a fool to play without them, and thus you end up with a tiny pool of viable decks. And that's when, hopefully, card bans come out in a reasonable amount of time. I get how these "decks" apply to the "classes" of AoC. But we're already going to have a totally different deck with each class that we pick. No getting around that. We can all share from a pool of similar cards (weapons) and even share a few similar cards from eachother's decks (secondary class), but we're all going to have different core decks. And some WILL beat others. However, unlike in the card game example, being good or bad at your class and weapon will make a difference as well. Great players can make bad kits work, or average kits great. And bad players, well, they'll either have fun doing whatever the heck they want to do, or they'll use a good kit. But they'll already be doing that regardless of whether they do or don't have access to an active block.
Hopefully, these posts will suffice and allow us to reach an agreement or be closer to one.
If I thought you were 'wrong' I would try to convince you, but I believe your position is just 'different' and I disprefer it, which makes it a decision for Intrepid. In short, the numbers don't work to create an experience I would expect to enjoy, but that's me.
I believe all weapons should be able to block. I believe all classes should be able to block. I don't personally see a need to make that ability be part of diversity, as I don't see the benefit of it. And by that I mean, I can see there is a thing it does, and I disagree that the thing it does, is a benefit.
From what I've seen on forums there are definitely some people who believe that higher distinguishing between classes is good, so you should continue to represent those people.
EDIT: I almost forgot the main part, now you and @Ugoogee can move to discussing 'how much mitigation a Shield is'.
On 'my' whiteboard it is only 20-25%, and 'my' whiteboard is the one with the RNG evasion chance and all that stuff, so you can ignore it.
In Neverwinter Online, block/dodge/blink/roll were based on class.
I think Daggers probably don't need Active Block, but I would expect those choosing Daggers to have a class ability, like Blink or Damage Mitigation or Evasion that would take the place of Active Block.
Ashes isn't designed for 1v1, so I think that balance shouldn't be an issue.
(I haven't experienced that card game scenario, so I can't really comment on that.)
If they want to use Active Block, they use a weapon with Active Block - just like any other class.
I don't know what "Active Counter" is. My expectation would be that a Rogue would use Active Roll/Dodge instead of Active Block. If the Rogue chooses to us a Shield for Active Block, they would not be able to Active Roll/Dodge simultaneously. It's one or the other.
If the Tank's Damage Mitigation from gear and Active Skills stack with the Active Block of the Shield, the Rogue's Evasion from from gear and Active Skills should also "stack" with the Active Block of the Shield.
I could live with Tank needing to use a weapon that has a blocking ability in order to use active block. But then also take away the other hypothetical class abilities as well, such as the "active counter" idea. To explain what that is, it's simply a counter attack that you have to time. Imagine the block allowing you to hold the key as long as you want, and block damage. This would be something you time and it reflects damage.
Alright so how do you propose you'd convince someone to play Tank if everyone can block, and especially with every weapon? I don't like either, but at least for a compromise you cannot have both. Either everyone can block but with certain weapons, or one class can block but with all weapons. What is the point of the tank at all aside from maybe some of the abilities for group mitigation and walls like we discussed in the other thread? Seems that Tanks would not be used much for PvP if everyone else can block and with whatever they happen to be holding in their hand.
If I understand correctly from your post you're not necessarily trying to find a middle ground but trying to come up with a model of your own. Well, I'm not interested in competing for intrepids attention over models and instead think the most productive and potentially successful thing we can do is continue trying to find ways our ideas *can* work together rather than only pointing out why they *can't*.
Sure, you know I'm always down for that, but bear in mind that it may take quite a while due to the 'distance' we are from each other. So let's give it a try.
Unfortunately since everything is still in the air, I'll have to reference some of my other compilations, but you shouldn't need to read them generally, it's just for context to show you where my data is coming from. Here's the Tank one. The abilities are all speculation, but they are also all things people requested, which is why they're in the concept..
So I'd say that Tanks would bring to the table 'A circle of defense bonus for everyone', 'a small shield against damage other than Ultimate Defense', 'Ultimate Defense itself', and 'the ability to block attacks on people standing behind them, for a duration'.
Now, if a Tank is able to raise defenses or block for anyone behind them in small group PvP, they hit the requirement of a lot of players who want to play Tank. Many of them 'want to be able to do something else in PvP'. In fact, their biggest ask was to 'make it so that threat generation had some equivalent'. They don't seem to see the value in 'being able to block' if they can be ignored.
Here's the part where we will take a while to agree, I feel. I think this is enough. For the Tank players I know personally, this would be enough. For the entire design of some absolutely not MMORPG games I play, it's more than enough.
I also need to add one thing about the way I perceive balance in the 'Rock Paper Scissors' thing that Intrepid mentions. Others have tried to figure out 'which classes are the Rock, Paper, and Scissors', looking for the counters. I don't know where I mentioned it, but I don't see it this way.
What I see is 'Mitigation beats Cooldown based damage, Cooldown based damage beats Attrition, and Attrition beats Mitigation'. This is relevant because I perceive that weapons are going to skew the more balanced classes like Bard toward one of these three.
Basically, I don't understand your stance yet. I don't have any data that implies that people 'won't play Tank because everyone else can block'. If they don't want to play Tank because they think other classes 'get more than them', I don't perceive 'subtracting blocking from everyone else' to be the solution. If they don't want to play Tank because 'I could just play another Class and block', that's almost saying that Tank in itself is useless outside of the ability to block.
And after all that, I still feel like the numbers don't work well, nor do I 'want' the 'Evasion Rogue dash-fest' that it would almost have to turn into.
If blocking mitigates considerable damage, and you choose not to block, you either need 'some amount of evasion to reach the same mitigation (and Tanks will still have Ultimate Defense and probably more HP than you), or 'so much more damage that you can overwhelm that mitigation offered by blocking on Average', which then empowers you to defeat certain other classes much faster. In which case then Tanks take that weapon, use Ultimate Defense and don't bother to block, they already have mitigation, and because they have it they can afford to build for big damage and just pop Ult.Defense when they're low (not to mention how many plan to just play Paladin).
That's cool with some people. I personally don't like it. Balance starts to fray at the edges really fast in that case, and the meta becomes very rigid. It also causes stress on the capacity to design fair weapons, and increases the chances something bad will slip through. And once it's through, if you don't catch it fast, as a designer you get a lot of flak for 'nerfing the new Greatsword that people spent so much time getting'. Very negative.
Forgot to respond to this one, so...
I actually find this quite common. Rogues, particularly Dual Wield Rogues, tend to put out a lot of damage and armor penetration. I was reminded whilst watching an ESO video (I make no claims about the overall quality of ESO) that once a Rogue has enough damage output, they might still want Stealth, but they don't care about the Evasion skills as much in a game with a higher TTK.
I played Rogue in Neverwinter and didn't care about Evasion in PvP. I play Thief sometimes in FFXI and I don't care about Evasion in their PvP (noting again that it's very limited PvP). I play Kunoichi in BDO and Evasion build makes you explicitly less successful in their PvP (I'm not high enough Gear Score nor good enough at BDO for this to count, I think, but 'friendly duels' always make me take off my Evasion gear).
I play the Rogue-like characters in Paladins and for a bit when I played Overwatch and I don't care about Evasion then either. I don't use Genji's/Androxus' attack reflect for the protection, I use it because it hurts the enemy, and if I'm already close, there's no need for it. Cut through.
'Evasion' skills on Rogue are 'how to flank my opponent' to me, if I have to actually use them for Evading things, things are going poorly, so the better I get at a game, the less I want them and the more I want damage.
In a higher TTK game, if I do 40% of your health in one attack, and then another 10-15% with bleeds or similar, then the optimal strategy is almost never 'and now I dodge around, moving myself away from the person I want to keep stabbing, for a while'. The optimal strategy is to stab repeatedly until dead. And the times this doesn't work, it's because the Rogue is so squishy that somehow they can make up this 40% deficit. In Ashes, with a Dual Wielding Dagger Rogue (because if Daggers don't offer some level of armor penetration or debilitation what's the point of them relative to other weapons?), who has 'a bonus to damage because they didn't choose to carry a shield', I would never expect the optimal DW Rogue strat to involve 'actually dodging things' unless Rogues sucked in general.
I’m fine with this also as a possible solution. This seems more like something that matches what @Azherae is asking for but in a *balanced* way that still has distinction between weapons and a choice for the player whether they really need to block with a certain weapon or not.
I should probably clarify, that I have absolutely no problem working on, and supporting, only your concept, @Cypher. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean I feel like it's a good idea to compete with it, if most others also want/like it. This isn't 'a game built for me' after all.
However I don't have any experience building a balanced enough concept, from it, so I may not be as much help. As always, I'll compile whatever people suggest, but I can't help convince them. I've tried to get it working based on what we know, and the numbers never line up on my side for something that doesn't have a constricted meta.
But I think that if Intrepid were to start with yours, it'd be better. If they 'started with everyone able to block', people might not be able to figure out 'what they feel is wrong with the game or the combat in an articulable way', and it might slip through and just be 'average' instead of great.
Whereas 'Blocking isn't for everyone', if it turns out that somehow Intrepid also can't get the numbers to work, the players will let them know, since that would imply balance issues that other number-cruncher types would see. At that point all you would need to watch out for or worry about is the people who 'ruin the card games'. The people who go 'well obviously you're supposed to build this way, other builds aren't even intended by the Devs, git gud'.
So it's a chance to make something that people like, with a risk, whereas what I suggest is bland and average by comparison, for less risk. Plus, this way, if I make a mistake in calculations, you'd have more people who could do the same calculations and see the truth.
This way also results in me continuing to try to get the numbers to work, instead of just going 'nah I can't see it and don't care so let's move on'.
Which brings us back to 'how much mitigation is blocking?' if you're willing to accept this instead, for now.
Alright, understood.
Well, so if we were to go off the model of "certain weapons can block", I would suggest this tiered list:
1- Shields
2- Two-Handed Melee weapons (Axes, Maces and Swords will all have a Two-Hand variant)
3- Spears, Polearms, *Lances (*maybe)
4- Staves
I would have Tier 1 mitigate something around 80% of the damage, Tier 2: 60%, Tier 3: 40%, and Tier 4: 20% (what do you expect, you're wielding a magical rod of death, you can't have good blocks too lol).
Next I would propose that the Tank class have an optional passive tree that they can spec into which raises the damage mitigation up to 10%. So a Tank, if fully specced into block, can reach 90%, 70%, 50% and 30% for each of those weapon tiers instead.
2H Axe Fighter against Tank, 2H Axe Fighter against Dual Wield Fighter. 2H Axe Fighter against Stave Bard.
2H Axe Fighter uses 'Leaping Smash' or whatever. Tank blocks with shield.
Instead of doing 20% health damage it does 2%. On a 60 second TTK, melee generally does 3% damage (I think we all just accept this? Let me know if not). 2H Axe Fighter now needs to hit Tank with 6 melee attacks more than before. TTK extended by around 12s.
On the DW Fighter, they had to use some counter or evasion ability. IF they succeed, they get probably 0% damage at the cost of some mana. Maybe even did damage. TTK extended by 12s.
The Stave Bard also blocks, instead of 20% damage it does 16%. TTK extended by only around 2s. In order for this to not result in a state where the 2H Axe Fighter always wins, the Bard has to do their kill damage 10s faster than the Tank needs to. So they need to have around 20% more damage than the Tank does. (any considerations that Tanks should be more capable than Bards in general are handled by Ultimate Defense and likely much higher HP).
We can't go 'well Bards have DoT that can cover that 20% damage in the 50 seconds'. They have that if they equip shield. It has to be resultant from the Staff. There must be something about using Staff, that, by itself, raises the Bard's damage by 20%.
Therefore Staves must be offensively more powerful for Bards (and technically for everyone else, if you want people to actually feel like they have the option to use every weapon) than 2 Handed Axes. In the case of that comparison, it's 0.6 (block mitigation) x 0.2 (percentage damage would have been taken) to give us a TTK extension difference of 6 seconds. Decent. For 'balance' all you have to do is make it so that Staves result in being able to kill the opponent 10% faster than 2H Axes.
Assuming of course that you only block the one ability. For multiple abilities, just roughly multiply with a diminishing return. Average fight 5 abilities blocked for what would be a total of 50% damage, unblocked, 2H Axe reduces this to 20%. Staff reduces it to 40%.
Make Staves 20% stronger damage than 2H Axes and balance is restored.
Random thought: Are you taking the attacking weapon into account for mitigation?
@CROW3 I don’t know about that. The weapons I’ve listed already account for a little under half of the weapons that will be available. Also, the advantage of a 1 handed sword is that you get faster attack speed than 2 handed but you also get to equip 2 of them, meaning you’re not losing much damage. Maybe even none at all, but we haven’t really broken down how we want those to be balanced yet.