But ashes will have a transmog system. We won't see what armor others wear. I see the gear icon in the nameplate as part of the "inspection", so I want it in the game. Maybe I'm wrong to associate those two, cause I'm not used to transmog games, but whatever the case may be, as long as we can clearly see what gear our target has - I'm a happy camper.
We don't know the transmog rules right now. It could be that I can wear Heavy Armour and a Robe Skin, or, I might have to have a Heavy Armour skin to place on the heavy armour. If the second option is true, then transmogs/costumes won't be an issue, if the first option is true then transmogs/costumes will give conflicted information.
Everybody should be able to see any character gear and build. Better if it will be web version, so I can send a link and say "look what build this player has". Like in Skyforge. This also helps to analyze if people killed us using cheats/bugs or that was fair play.
Everybody should be able to see any character gear and build. Better if it will be web version, so I can send a link and say "look what build this player has". Like in Skyforge. This also helps to analyze if people killed us using cheats/bugs or that was fair play.
I might budge if they introduce a toggle for inspections, but, I do not want a third party website in which i have no control whatsoever on who has access.
No inspect 100%. No add-ons or any other stuff like dmg meters from WoW. It has it's place, but not in game like AoC. AoC should be compared stylistically to something like Lineage. L2 didn't have add-ons, inspects, meters and no one cared what everyone are equiped with. Why? Because everyone saw your armor sets and weapon on your character so no need for inspect.
We don't know the transmog rules right now. It could be that I can wear Heavy Armour and a Robe Skin, or, I might have to have a Heavy Armour skin to place on the heavy armour. If the second option is true, then transmogs/costumes won't be an issue, if the first option is true then transmogs/costumes will give conflicted information.
That would only indicate the estimated class/role of the player, but not his power. Back before transmogging, you could see a dude wearing a strong armor and you knew instantly that he's gonna be a challenge to fight against in pvp. And alternatively, if you saw a dude in weak armor you knew not to hit him, because even with one crit you might've killed him and gotten corruption. With transmog that's gone. Hardcore pvp players don't see good targets to have a fun battle with, while casuals don't know how strong their potential ganker is.
Seeing enemy's gear in pvp was always important because it added to the battle. You'd have to manage your own strength properly and on the fly. Having no visibility of those things would not add to the "risk vs reward" ideology, it would only add random corruption and unneeded death, which can only lead to players getting frustrated with an already niche game.
Seeing enemy's gear in pvp was always important because it added to the battle. You'd have to manage your own strength properly and on the fly. Having no visibility of those things would not add to the "risk vs reward" ideology, it would only add random corruption and unneeded death, which can only lead to players getting frustrated with an already niche game.
The issue you have is you are most likely referencing games where each Class had a set weapon set, a set armour set and set skill set. All three of which instantly identifies the opponent. Ashes has any weapon can be used, any armour can be used and customisable skill sets. In a large PvP battle, I would coordinate the glass canons, then the healers, then the tanks and I wouldn't inspect any of them. I would just watch their actions and probe their defences. I do not want the game dulled down to have easy access to tactical information.
Ashes will be a very competitive game and if someone wants to hide their equipment it should be allowed. I do not see how inspections and third party tools are healthy for a competitive game. When I played EVE Online you could not be probed, you could be decloaked for sure but you could not be 'inspected' by a random passer by. Of course, you couldn't re-cloak if you had been seen but the competitive edge is still present. Ashes is designed to be competitive but the devs seem to pander to quality of life improvements which were never requested prior to the dev discussions.
Edit: Cargo Scanners can be used in EVE which I forgot. But, the other parameters are accurate. It kind of links in to someone else's request for more lore based abilities to determine the items in use. In Eve you have to add cargo scanners and ship scanners or you can't inspect which I was happy with.
But ashes will have a transmog system. We won't see what armor others wear. I see the gear icon in the nameplate as part of the "inspection", so I want it in the game. Maybe I'm wrong to associate those two, cause I'm not used to transmog games, but whatever the case may be, as long as we can clearly see what gear our target has - I'm a happy camper.
We don't know the transmog rules right now. It could be that I can wear Heavy Armour and a Robe Skin, or, I might have to have a Heavy Armour skin to place on the heavy armour. If the second option is true, then transmogs/costumes won't be an issue, if the first option is true then transmogs/costumes will give conflicted information.
Actually, we do know that the first option is the current plan, at least in regards to costumes.
I'm fairly sure it was a discussion on these forums (perhaps the old forums) that Steven weighed in on, though there is nothing about it on the wiki that I am aware of.
Actually, we do know that the first option is the current plan, at least in regards to costumes.
I'm fairly sure it was a discussion on these forums (perhaps the old forums) that Steven weighed in on, though there is nothing about it on the wiki that I am aware of.
The issue you have is you are most likely referencing games where each Class had a set weapon set, a set armour set and set skill set. All three of which instantly identifies the opponent. Ashes has any weapon can be used, any armour can be used and customisable skill sets. In a large PvP battle, I would coordinate the glass canons, then the healers, then the tanks and I wouldn't inspect any of them. I would just watch their actions and probe their defences. I do not want the game dulled down to have easy access to tactical information.
I'm not even talking about the big fights. Obviously you won't have time to click on every single person on the other side of the conflict. I'm talking about small-scale pvps, if not even 1v1s in the open world. Yes, I come from L2 where you usually had particular sets for particular classes, but there were still grades to those sets.
A player could be wearing 40-52 lvl gear, while the character was at 60++ lvl. You knew his base power (at least lvl40), but you didn't know the full extent. You then had to make a decision based on your own power. If you yourself were a 40 lvl dude, you could risk it and try to flag on that player, but then you'd instantly lose cause he was lvl 65. Or you could be lvl60 and didn't want to risk getting karma for killing a newbie with one shot.
Yes, all classes will be able to wear whatever gear they want, but there'll still be some type of scaling on that gear. Some would only be worn by a particular set of classes and some would only be worn on a particular set of lvls. By seeing the gear, you'd have a rough estimate of what you're about to encounter. This principle worked just fine in L2, so why can't it work here?
All I'm asking is just that the gear icon (that they said will exist) would be customizable, so that I can see the gear set more clearly. Ideally I'd like to be able to assign different colors to different sets, so when I click on a dude that's wearing "Frosty dragon ULTRA KILLER" set, I'd see the gear icon as super bright blue and I'd know to be careful around that dude.
Ashes will be a very competitive game and if someone wants to hide their equipment it should be allowed. I do not see how inspections and third party tools are healthy for a competitive game. When I played EVE Online you could not be probed, you could be decloaked for sure but you could not be 'inspected' by a random passer by. Of course, you couldn't re-cloak if you had been seen but the competitive edge is still present. Ashes is designed to be competitive but the devs seem to pander to quality of life improvements which were never requested prior to the dev discussions.
I haven't really played EVE, but can't you see what kind of ship it is? Big/small/attack/trade/etc. If I warp into a system and see a huge ship there - I'll bounce. If I have a mid ship and see a few small ones and I have guns that can deal with them, I'll try my chances. That's the risk and reward of EVE, is it not?
And on the topic of competition, Josh Strife Hayes had a good video about mmo pvp "balancing". There's always gonna be someone stronger than you or way weaker than you. There's very rarely any fair competition in mmos. Seeing your opponents gear would make the competition fairer because you'd know your chances from the start. If you've got the skill, you can still punch up and win, and if you've got the better gear you can try and take on more weaker people at once. It won't casualize the game. If anything, it'll bring it even closer to its roots.
Yeah, I understand your position. I'm ambivalent about the proposition for the armour buffs in truth. As I wanted to be a Bounty Hunter, I already thought the system was silly. Why should a Bounty Hunter have to flag as combatant to deal with corrupted players? There will be hard counters in place, possibly outnumbered fights and ambushes awaiting. On top of that, the proposal is to add inspections, which would mean anyone can walk up to a known bounty hunter and glean their equipment.
I do not understand the logic, its like the devs want corruption to be out of control. Luckily they listened and changed the Military Node but I was always under the impression my skills, builds and armour will overall be protected. Now I find that it may not be the case. I understand some will think it is a minimal issue but from a Bounty Hunter perspective it is another big red flag.
I do not understand the logic, its like the devs want corruption to be out of control. Luckily they listened and changed the Military Node but I was always under the impression my skills, builds and armour will overall be protected. Now I find that it may not be the case. I understand some will think it is a minimal issue but from a Bounty Hunter perspective it is another big red flag.
And I personally find "protected builds" quite a casual feature. If you've got the mechanical and strategic skill - your gear shouldn't matter that much. And if the only thing that helps you win is your gear, then you should "git gud". Which is why I want inspection to be a ffa. Everyone will know everyone's base power, but only through battle can we learn its true extent.
Though I'm pretty sure Intrepid will either not have full inspection or have the toggleable version, like suggested in this thread. Way too many people want that, which was kind of surprising to me.
It fascinates me that you would call protected builds a casual feature. I would call it a necessity. When I backed there was no Inspection at all. Since Jeff has gone I've found old facets are being eroded. I would accept a toggle but I'd rather the original design be honoured. To a min/maxer hard core pvper like me the necessities are a natural disposition. To someone less capable they would often opt for a FFA Inspection because unlike those who rely on skill and armour gleaned from dire situations, those players really on copying, being put in the know and being advised how best to tackle an issue through information leaks, dps meters and third party tools.
It fascinates me that you would call protected builds a casual feature. I would call it a necessity. When I backed there was no Inspection at all. Since Jeff has gone I've found old facets are being eroded. I would accept a toggle but I'd rather the original design be honoured. To a min/maxer hard core pvper like me the necessities are a natural disposition. To someone less capable they would often opt for a FFA Inspection because unlike those who rely on skill and armour gleaned from dire situations, those players really on copying, being put in the know and being advised how best to tackle an issue through information leaks, dps meters and third party tools.
And I see protected builds as casual exactly because I've been a hardcore pvper for years in Lineage 2, where pretty much everyone knew others' builds and sometimes even their skill build/layout. The thing that separated the greats from the plain pvpers was the skill that utilized those builds, not the gear/build itself. I've fought several people who copied my build and skill layout, but I haven't lost a single time to them because I knew how to use my skills better. Having your stuff hidden from others is casual to me. But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Yeah, I know the gear set icon was around before Jeff left. I stated before I was ambivalent about it. What I referred to is the fact that prior to Jeff leaving Inspections weren't an option. Since Jeff left inspections have become a possible option.
I've built builds before that have caused huge nerfs in other MMOs. Gems in one MMO went from +4 one hand damage per gem to +0.2 one hand damage. Prior to the change I was one shotting people. Luckily the devs listened to my report and watched it in action and then produced the heavy nerf. I'm not opposed to sharing my builds with people I trust. Its the people I don't trust I have issues with.
When I am duelling someone else, I don't inspect them before I duel them. If the person wants a duel I will duel. They neither know my spec and I don't know their spec. I learn and adapt as I duel. Now, there are occasions when two builds will match but it is a rare occurrence. I prefer to fight outnumbered in PvP if I can and I also prefer to fight until the bitter end.
We have reached an impasse because people are requesting design changes which goes against one of the reasons I backed. I'm vocal for the opposition because I notice we are thin in number and someone has to prioritise the original plan. Steven can change the plan and that's fine. I just don't want changes made unless all the facets are covered. There are occasions my position is defeated like the Multiple Account vote, but, this is the first time I've mentioned it since the vote was cast. I can take defeat like I can take success because when you become too successful you make enemies.
I also backed because health would be limited in visible function but in Alpha 1 the health was visible. I do not understand where we are at, I'm merely voicing my concerns. So far, what I considered to be staples of the game are not staples of the game. Not sure if the game will have the features or not but I voice my opinions like you voice yours. There are so many locations to get augments, and, so many ways you can build a toon that I do not want that information given away freely.
I also backed because health would be limited in visible function but in Alpha 1 the health was visible. I do not understand where we are at, I'm merely voicing my concerns. So far, what I considered to be staples of the game are not staples of the game. Not sure if the game will have the features or not but I voice my opinions like you voice yours. There are so many locations to get augments, and, so many ways you can build a toon that I do not want that information given away freely.
And I totally agree with that. I've been defending the corruption system on reddit for months now, so I definitely understand your point of view. And I would definitely prefer for the game to get developed in exactly the way they initially designed it, because I liked and followed the game exactly because of that design.
When reading all these comments it seems that most see no issue with being able to check gear. I want people to check my gear especially when I have a rare item, armor, weapon, or transmog equipped standing in a high traffic area of the most popular metropolis. I think somehow people think that being inspected will show skills and talents? I am against that 100%, but I think that is not the question being asked though. In a game like FFXIV you can check any player and look at all of their gear. It's harmless, but there isn't open word PVP. If you are an open world PVPer you do not care what a persons gear is honestly. You will know your bad matchups and your more favorable ones as well and play to your strengths and avoid your weaknesses.
Being in a guild with standards like gear score or w/e measure there might be on launch isn't for everyone. Just like if I am looking for a certain type of Tank and you don't fit the mold but lie to me and tell me you do. Why should I be forced to take your word without checking. I could just check you without requesting to do so and see for myself.
I played the shit out of FFXI on NA launch(Fenrir Server) until they announced level cap gong up past LV 75. Something like 7 years. There was a Japanese player by the name EXT who, when you would check them, would switch their gear making them blink off and on the screen forcing you to lose target on them essentially stopping you from checking them. 3rd party tools eventually made it so you didn't lose target on people switching gear, but my point is that he went to great lengths to hide his gear from people. There was no competitive advantage at all in doing this. You could, in settings, turn off the notification that someone is checking you.
My final thoughts are check who you want, just as long as what you can see is the gear they're wearing, which race they are, which job/class and sub job/class they are and, the details or stats of their gear.
Whenever a topic like this is put forward a few things come to mind. Firstly, as a player, if this was another game, I'd just set my 'player profile'/'gear screen' to private so I can attack people without them gaining any knowledge on me or being able to gauge my threat level. However, as this is an MMORPG, I'm more interested in the 'RPG' element. Why not tie the ability to successfully check someone's gear and stats to a life skill? Similar to DnD's perception skill, which would let players who have put effort into leveling it see an in-depth description of the inspected characters stats and gear, this could tie into PvE by allowing players to do additional damage to mobs such as noticing weaknesses, etc, couple that with independent mob knowledge for damage bonuses and it's a nice package.
But the second thing that comes to mind, which is always a concern, how much do the developers care? Not in general, but about the specific topic. They may only want a yes, no, or don't care answer. Which would result in a basic or generic system put in place, when I'd prefer for them to do something unique. I'd rather have a system where someone earns the ability to see that I'm statistically superior or inferior, rather than just clicking on everyone that leaves town on a whim until he finds the weakest person to take advantage of. This isn't really interesting and I've seen it in hundreds of other games, along with this, if they allow people to inspect others to the point that they can read their build like a spreadsheet, the game's already dipped too far into the themepark cookie jar.
This is a total must have feature for me. I personally like to compare my overall gear/gearbuild to other pepole. In quite a few other MMOs you can literaly tell if someone is a good or a bad player by a simple look on their gear. If they dont know how to gear their char the right way you can either decide to help them or to ignore them.
I like the idea of inspection up on request for gear.
I would like to have an option to hide my skilltree and augments.
The comunity should try to prevent some kind of meta check and encourage interaction between the players.
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[Fleo Verum] Carolus Dynamicus - Py'rai - Rogue+Fighter
It fascinates me that you would call protected builds a casual feature. I would call it a necessity. When I backed there was no Inspection at all. Since Jeff has gone I've found old facets are being eroded. I would accept a toggle but I'd rather the original design be honoured. To a min/maxer hard core pvper like me the necessities are a natural disposition. To someone less capable they would often opt for a FFA Inspection because unlike those who rely on skill and armour gleaned from dire situations, those players really on copying, being put in the know and being advised how best to tackle an issue through information leaks, dps meters and third party tools.
After reading lots of things, this post resonates with me the strongest about my feelings on this matter. The 'erosion' here makes it difficult to tell what original quotes have which meanings.
I don't think I have a strong opinion on whether or not examination should be toggleable in itself, but I don't like the idea of anyone being able to just inspect another's gear in detail.
The key word I heard used when Jeff was discussing this was 'type', and this seemed like a really great idea. You can know that I use a spear and medium armor, in fact, I personally don't care if you know 'I have medium armor in head and chest slots and heavy armor gloves and boots' (some colors could deal with that). I don't care if you know the grade of those slots (outline colors for the same whatever).
So if you know I have 'Epic spear', 'legendary medium armor head', 'rare heavy gloves', 'epic medium chest', 'rare light leggings', 'rare heavy boots', just by looking over a little gear icon that blows up when you mouseover it (make it a little challenging while I'm in motion!) then this is fine. Because that's 'type'.
I don't want anything more than that, because there's too much that a serious player can do with bits of knowledge like this to improve their chances, especially as the aggressor. This much allows for intimidation, etc.
To be clear, the reason @Neurath's post resonated so much is that I unfortunately just automatically thought 'this was already decided entirely'. Not necessarily along the lines I said exactly, but certainly decided enough that there was only a smaller range within which to change it. Could still be so. But then I would have to ask what the point of this specific Dev Discussion is because...
....It won't matter if you see a cosmetic and inspect it, you can't get them again once the fomo hits....
Sometimes I wonder what the point of theory crafting is when I could just let someone else theory craft and just copy them. I don't like the idea of putting 100% in and having it all on view. I thought the stance was no inspections and I'm not sure how the topic has come about.
There will be plenty of people who didn't buy cosmetics before launch. Even then, there are to be variations of the cosmetics in-game; Pre-game cosmetics aren't the only things that will look like the cosmetics will. (i.e. the same cloak but in different colors)
Granted, this isn't necessarily to mean that the names of the gear to be had in-game and cosmetics will be similar - though that would help.
Also, @Neurath , theory-crafting on character/gear-inspection is the subject of this thread.
Yeah, I understand that. But, if you see a cosmetic and inspect the toon, then you want the cosmetic, how will you know where to get the non-shop cosmetic because the shop cosmetics don't indicate where the copies will be. If someone asked me how to obtain my cosmetics (shop cosmetics), unless I have seen the location of the similar appearance I wouldn't have a clue where to send the person.
When I mentioned theory crafting, I meant build theory crafting because some people are asking to inspect gear, stats, skills and a complete FFA Inspection which I disagree with. I didn't mean I don't want to theory craft about the character inspection itself. Personally, I still don't want character inspections like the original plan. I could get behind a toggle but I'd rather take the stance of no inspections before a toggle inspection
Definitely! a simple way to do it is a request to inspect
what @Nova Ordem said is easily done and seems like it could solve the whole issue. Some people that are PVP focused don't want you to inspect them and I get that. Some people who are PVE minded want all the inspection options they can get (me).
Make it a toggle in my options panel to allow or deny all inspection requests and its done and solved.
That way you can play as a mysterious character or an open book, however you choose.
“There’s absolutely no limit to what plain ordinary working people can accomplish, if they are given the opportunity, encouragement and incentive to do their best”.
-Mr. Sam Walton
....I get that you want to show community involvement by putting these topics up for discussion, but you make people nervous that you plan on changing things that would be core to what was sold as a concept years ago....
This was a lot earlier in development, and they didn't really go into much depth into how concrete this was to be, and didn't go into detail as to the depth/meaning of inspections.
I totally get the perspective of protecting yourself from leetist guild/group-building - but what's the harm in knowing what that cool orange-blue cloak is that someone's wearing for their appearance?
I don't know what's wrong with asking a player where they got 'x item' and how to obtain 'x item'. I don't see the need to have inspections. It is true that not every player will be happy to respond to a request for knowledge on an item, its also true those same players (like me) would probably refuse an inspection if inspections were toggles. I would imagine all the cosmetics and the relevant links to in game items will be on the wiki or some sort of Ashes Armoury when the game's live and if that is the case I would direct anyone to the information rather than unveil my privacy.
....if you see a cosmetic and inspect the toon, then you want the cosmetic, how will you know where to get the non-shop cosmetic because the shop cosmetics don't indicate where the copies will be. If someone asked me how to obtain my cosmetics (shop cosmetics), unless I have seen the location of the similar appearance I wouldn't have a clue where to send the person....
An interesting distinction to make! Maybe for the sake of looking closer at someone's appearance gear, there could be a small cash-shop icon in the corner of it?
It'd be a stretch - but if we really wanted to take it to the extreme? Maybe if you hover your mouse over someone's appearance gear and it's a Cash Shop item, we could get a little description-box letting you know about similar-looking items. It's a bit of a reach - but it's certainly an option, if Intrepid really wants to go all the way for letting us customize our toons.
There's no inspection in BDO and gankers are shocked when they attack my lower level characters but my low level characters have Pen Armour and weapons on because the items have no level restrictions. I do not consider inspection to be required at all. No one requests it in BDO. New World has no inspection and although some request it most do not want it.
WoW has inspection and transmogs. More often than not, you will be barred from content after an inspection you have no option to decline. Your often not even warned, you're just kicked and replaced. In the early game of Ashes everyone will have bad gear and everyone will have to form social connections. Inspection reduces social interaction because anyone can simply snoop and make judgements without any form of communication or any trials to test your skills.
On the off chance you actually receive a Legendary Drop everyone will see the Legendary Drop on your toon. You can choose what you show and what you hide. If inspection is added you will no longer be able to choose what you show and what you hide. Everything will be on show and I do not believe the free for all inspection will be good for the game long term.
A toggle is the most appropriate choice in this circumstance because it gives players options. Options make a better game overall and choices can be personalised. I do not favour a full free for all inspection system with no toggle because some of us prefer the original idea of no inspections - much like BDO and New World.
Personally, I believe that being able to inspect people is a surprisingly big part of an MMO mainly due to the impact it has on new players and players on their journey throughout the Gameworld, being able to engage with players that are at a much higher power level than themselves gets them hyped to reach that power. To this day I remember complimenting someone on their t3 plagueheart gear & then when I got my my t5 riftstalker helm I got two compliments on how awesome it looked and feeling proud of the time I had committed to getting geared up. I do however understand people's reluctance to sharing skill choices as these give the player a sense of individuality.
Perhaps the best way to do it would be gear & achievement inspection is only possible inside "safe zones" & skill trees are only available for view by friends / guild officers / leaders?
So a "Player" window opens upon inspection in a "safe zone" and a skills "tab" is not accessible if you are not a "friend" however you can see Armor & very basic stats. Inspection would however be toggleable to those who want to keep everything to themselves if they wish, but default would have inspection turnt on?
What was the PvP death penalty in BDO again? And how much did it increase based on killing lower level characters?
Were players limited in gear choice in BDO, or did they have the option to equip any item in the game?
If you are going to use a different game as an example, you need to talk about all the differences between them, and how that would change the want or need for the feature in question.
Comments
We don't know the transmog rules right now. It could be that I can wear Heavy Armour and a Robe Skin, or, I might have to have a Heavy Armour skin to place on the heavy armour. If the second option is true, then transmogs/costumes won't be an issue, if the first option is true then transmogs/costumes will give conflicted information.
I might budge if they introduce a toggle for inspections, but, I do not want a third party website in which i have no control whatsoever on who has access.
L2 had combat trackers.
Seeing enemy's gear in pvp was always important because it added to the battle. You'd have to manage your own strength properly and on the fly. Having no visibility of those things would not add to the "risk vs reward" ideology, it would only add random corruption and unneeded death, which can only lead to players getting frustrated with an already niche game.
The issue you have is you are most likely referencing games where each Class had a set weapon set, a set armour set and set skill set. All three of which instantly identifies the opponent. Ashes has any weapon can be used, any armour can be used and customisable skill sets. In a large PvP battle, I would coordinate the glass canons, then the healers, then the tanks and I wouldn't inspect any of them. I would just watch their actions and probe their defences. I do not want the game dulled down to have easy access to tactical information.
Ashes will be a very competitive game and if someone wants to hide their equipment it should be allowed. I do not see how inspections and third party tools are healthy for a competitive game. When I played EVE Online you could not be probed, you could be decloaked for sure but you could not be 'inspected' by a random passer by. Of course, you couldn't re-cloak if you had been seen but the competitive edge is still present. Ashes is designed to be competitive but the devs seem to pander to quality of life improvements which were never requested prior to the dev discussions.
Edit: Cargo Scanners can be used in EVE which I forgot. But, the other parameters are accurate. It kind of links in to someone else's request for more lore based abilities to determine the items in use. In Eve you have to add cargo scanners and ship scanners or you can't inspect which I was happy with.
I'm fairly sure it was a discussion on these forums (perhaps the old forums) that Steven weighed in on, though there is nothing about it on the wiki that I am aware of.
Basically, if you buy a costume, you can use it.
Okay, thank you for the tip
Edit: I just need some decent robes to come out.
A player could be wearing 40-52 lvl gear, while the character was at 60++ lvl. You knew his base power (at least lvl40), but you didn't know the full extent. You then had to make a decision based on your own power. If you yourself were a 40 lvl dude, you could risk it and try to flag on that player, but then you'd instantly lose cause he was lvl 65. Or you could be lvl60 and didn't want to risk getting karma for killing a newbie with one shot.
Yes, all classes will be able to wear whatever gear they want, but there'll still be some type of scaling on that gear. Some would only be worn by a particular set of classes and some would only be worn on a particular set of lvls. By seeing the gear, you'd have a rough estimate of what you're about to encounter. This principle worked just fine in L2, so why can't it work here?
All I'm asking is just that the gear icon (that they said will exist) would be customizable, so that I can see the gear set more clearly. Ideally I'd like to be able to assign different colors to different sets, so when I click on a dude that's wearing "Frosty dragon ULTRA KILLER" set, I'd see the gear icon as super bright blue and I'd know to be careful around that dude. I haven't really played EVE, but can't you see what kind of ship it is? Big/small/attack/trade/etc. If I warp into a system and see a huge ship there - I'll bounce. If I have a mid ship and see a few small ones and I have guns that can deal with them, I'll try my chances. That's the risk and reward of EVE, is it not?
And on the topic of competition, Josh Strife Hayes had a good video about mmo pvp "balancing". There's always gonna be someone stronger than you or way weaker than you. There's very rarely any fair competition in mmos. Seeing your opponents gear would make the competition fairer because you'd know your chances from the start. If you've got the skill, you can still punch up and win, and if you've got the better gear you can try and take on more weaker people at once. It won't casualize the game. If anything, it'll bring it even closer to its roots.
I do not understand the logic, its like the devs want corruption to be out of control. Luckily they listened and changed the Military Node but I was always under the impression my skills, builds and armour will overall be protected. Now I find that it may not be the case. I understand some will think it is a minimal issue but from a Bounty Hunter perspective it is another big red flag.
Though I'm pretty sure Intrepid will either not have full inspection or have the toggleable version, like suggested in this thread. Way too many people want that, which was kind of surprising to me.
And I see protected builds as casual exactly because I've been a hardcore pvper for years in Lineage 2, where pretty much everyone knew others' builds and sometimes even their skill build/layout. The thing that separated the greats from the plain pvpers was the skill that utilized those builds, not the gear/build itself. I've fought several people who copied my build and skill layout, but I haven't lost a single time to them because I knew how to use my skills better. Having your stuff hidden from others is casual to me. But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I've built builds before that have caused huge nerfs in other MMOs. Gems in one MMO went from +4 one hand damage per gem to +0.2 one hand damage. Prior to the change I was one shotting people. Luckily the devs listened to my report and watched it in action and then produced the heavy nerf. I'm not opposed to sharing my builds with people I trust. Its the people I don't trust I have issues with.
When I am duelling someone else, I don't inspect them before I duel them. If the person wants a duel I will duel. They neither know my spec and I don't know their spec. I learn and adapt as I duel. Now, there are occasions when two builds will match but it is a rare occurrence. I prefer to fight outnumbered in PvP if I can and I also prefer to fight until the bitter end.
We have reached an impasse because people are requesting design changes which goes against one of the reasons I backed. I'm vocal for the opposition because I notice we are thin in number and someone has to prioritise the original plan. Steven can change the plan and that's fine. I just don't want changes made unless all the facets are covered. There are occasions my position is defeated like the Multiple Account vote, but, this is the first time I've mentioned it since the vote was cast. I can take defeat like I can take success because when you become too successful you make enemies.
I also backed because health would be limited in visible function but in Alpha 1 the health was visible. I do not understand where we are at, I'm merely voicing my concerns. So far, what I considered to be staples of the game are not staples of the game. Not sure if the game will have the features or not but I voice my opinions like you voice yours. There are so many locations to get augments, and, so many ways you can build a toon that I do not want that information given away freely.
Being in a guild with standards like gear score or w/e measure there might be on launch isn't for everyone. Just like if I am looking for a certain type of Tank and you don't fit the mold but lie to me and tell me you do. Why should I be forced to take your word without checking. I could just check you without requesting to do so and see for myself.
I played the shit out of FFXI on NA launch(Fenrir Server) until they announced level cap gong up past LV 75. Something like 7 years. There was a Japanese player by the name EXT who, when you would check them, would switch their gear making them blink off and on the screen forcing you to lose target on them essentially stopping you from checking them. 3rd party tools eventually made it so you didn't lose target on people switching gear, but my point is that he went to great lengths to hide his gear from people. There was no competitive advantage at all in doing this. You could, in settings, turn off the notification that someone is checking you.
My final thoughts are check who you want, just as long as what you can see is the gear they're wearing, which race they are, which job/class and sub job/class they are and, the details or stats of their gear.
But the second thing that comes to mind, which is always a concern, how much do the developers care? Not in general, but about the specific topic. They may only want a yes, no, or don't care answer. Which would result in a basic or generic system put in place, when I'd prefer for them to do something unique. I'd rather have a system where someone earns the ability to see that I'm statistically superior or inferior, rather than just clicking on everyone that leaves town on a whim until he finds the weakest person to take advantage of. This isn't really interesting and I've seen it in hundreds of other games, along with this, if they allow people to inspect others to the point that they can read their build like a spreadsheet, the game's already dipped too far into the themepark cookie jar.
I would like to have an option to hide my skilltree and augments.
The comunity should try to prevent some kind of meta check and encourage interaction between the players.
...
After reading lots of things, this post resonates with me the strongest about my feelings on this matter. The 'erosion' here makes it difficult to tell what original quotes have which meanings.
I don't think I have a strong opinion on whether or not examination should be toggleable in itself, but I don't like the idea of anyone being able to just inspect another's gear in detail.
The key word I heard used when Jeff was discussing this was 'type', and this seemed like a really great idea. You can know that I use a spear and medium armor, in fact, I personally don't care if you know 'I have medium armor in head and chest slots and heavy armor gloves and boots' (some colors could deal with that). I don't care if you know the grade of those slots (outline colors for the same whatever).
So if you know I have 'Epic spear', 'legendary medium armor head', 'rare heavy gloves', 'epic medium chest', 'rare light leggings', 'rare heavy boots', just by looking over a little gear icon that blows up when you mouseover it (make it a little challenging while I'm in motion!) then this is fine. Because that's 'type'.
I don't want anything more than that, because there's too much that a serious player can do with bits of knowledge like this to improve their chances, especially as the aggressor. This much allows for intimidation, etc.
To be clear, the reason @Neurath's post resonated so much is that I unfortunately just automatically thought 'this was already decided entirely'. Not necessarily along the lines I said exactly, but certainly decided enough that there was only a smaller range within which to change it. Could still be so. But then I would have to ask what the point of this specific Dev Discussion is because...
Mu. The question is wrong.
There will be plenty of people who didn't buy cosmetics before launch. Even then, there are to be variations of the cosmetics in-game; Pre-game cosmetics aren't the only things that will look like the cosmetics will. (i.e. the same cloak but in different colors)
Granted, this isn't necessarily to mean that the names of the gear to be had in-game and cosmetics will be similar - though that would help.
Also, @Neurath , theory-crafting on character/gear-inspection is the subject of this thread.
When I mentioned theory crafting, I meant build theory crafting because some people are asking to inspect gear, stats, skills and a complete FFA Inspection which I disagree with. I didn't mean I don't want to theory craft about the character inspection itself. Personally, I still don't want character inspections like the original plan. I could get behind a toggle but I'd rather take the stance of no inspections before a toggle inspection
what @Nova Ordem said is easily done and seems like it could solve the whole issue. Some people that are PVP focused don't want you to inspect them and I get that. Some people who are PVE minded want all the inspection options they can get (me).
Make it a toggle in my options panel to allow or deny all inspection requests and its done and solved.
That way you can play as a mysterious character or an open book, however you choose.
-Mr. Sam Walton
This was a lot earlier in development, and they didn't really go into much depth into how concrete this was to be, and didn't go into detail as to the depth/meaning of inspections.
I totally get the perspective of protecting yourself from leetist guild/group-building - but what's the harm in knowing what that cool orange-blue cloak is that someone's wearing for their appearance?
An interesting distinction to make! Maybe for the sake of looking closer at someone's appearance gear, there could be a small cash-shop icon in the corner of it?
It'd be a stretch - but if we really wanted to take it to the extreme? Maybe if you hover your mouse over someone's appearance gear and it's a Cash Shop item, we could get a little description-box letting you know about similar-looking items. It's a bit of a reach - but it's certainly an option, if Intrepid really wants to go all the way for letting us customize our toons.
I think full gear inspection should be required, especially when there is transmog.
WoW has inspection and transmogs. More often than not, you will be barred from content after an inspection you have no option to decline. Your often not even warned, you're just kicked and replaced. In the early game of Ashes everyone will have bad gear and everyone will have to form social connections. Inspection reduces social interaction because anyone can simply snoop and make judgements without any form of communication or any trials to test your skills.
On the off chance you actually receive a Legendary Drop everyone will see the Legendary Drop on your toon. You can choose what you show and what you hide. If inspection is added you will no longer be able to choose what you show and what you hide. Everything will be on show and I do not believe the free for all inspection will be good for the game long term.
A toggle is the most appropriate choice in this circumstance because it gives players options. Options make a better game overall and choices can be personalised. I do not favour a full free for all inspection system with no toggle because some of us prefer the original idea of no inspections - much like BDO and New World.
Perhaps the best way to do it would be gear & achievement inspection is only possible inside "safe zones" & skill trees are only available for view by friends / guild officers / leaders?
So a "Player" window opens upon inspection in a "safe zone" and a skills "tab" is not accessible if you are not a "friend" however you can see Armor & very basic stats. Inspection would however be toggleable to those who want to keep everything to themselves if they wish, but default would have inspection turnt on?
What was the PvP death penalty in BDO again? And how much did it increase based on killing lower level characters?
Were players limited in gear choice in BDO, or did they have the option to equip any item in the game?
If you are going to use a different game as an example, you need to talk about all the differences between them, and how that would change the want or need for the feature in question.