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Dev Discussion #35 - Character Inspection

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  • HogutiHoguti Member
    edited October 2021
    This topic has some good responses. Inspections would be fine with me (for gear, not talents-specs) if you can toggle/require permission. Being able to inspect a person can be instrumental in assisting players who ask for help. I’ve used similar features countless times to help players ranging from newbies to high end players trying to optimize every slot to achieve end game goals.
    I do want to be able to “threat assess” targets/attackers while engaging in PvP, so there should still be a way to assess players visually.
    I’ll be fine with it either way.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    No inspect 100%. No add-ons or any other stuff like dmg meters from WoW. It has it's place, but not in game like AoC. AoC should be compared stylistically to something like Lineage. L2 didn't have add-ons, inspects, meters and no one cared what everyone are equiped with. Why? Because everyone saw your armor sets and weapon on your character so no need for inspect.
    But ashes will have a transmog system. We won't see what armor others wear. I see the gear icon in the nameplate as part of the "inspection", so I want it in the game. Maybe I'm wrong to associate those two, cause I'm not used to transmog games, but whatever the case may be, as long as we can clearly see what gear our target has - I'm a happy camper.
    Agree
  • - Inspect only out of combat or large scale content
    - Different section for skill and armor inspection
    - Option to hide armor and skills perks, showing only the icons
    - Free armor inspect when cosmetics are used
    - (Ambitious) Suggestion of spells - When in guild, different interactions like an request of suggestion spells can be made. This will improve the interaction with new members and help the community in general, improving interaction.

    My other thoughts the community have contributed already.
    I like when I know about the armor and I see the person wearing it. If you'll have many sets this would be rewarding to who knows about the armors lookings and can get prepared for battle just by looking to your enemy.

    Thanks for your hard work.
    I wish you success!
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Free Inspection is a weird boon and also a slight terror. In DCuO I was a beast in group play as Celestial Healer, a dude inspected my armour and told me he would like me to solo heal some raids. I accepted the challenge and solo healed with my celestial toon and the raids were a success. I miss my celestial healer to this day.

    In SWG I was a Two Handed Swordsman, I walked into the Cantina and I saw a dude kneeling in a corner. I immediately was attracted to the pose and wasn't sure how to perform the task. I had to message the dude and the dude explained Teras Kasi could meditate and the pose was meditation. I switched from Two Handed Swordsman to Teras Kasi and never regretted the switch until NGE happened.

    In Age of Conan, we used to link our gear in Raid Chat/Group Chat or even Global Chat if you were in a dispute. Never had trust issues because people loved the purples. One dude asked me how to get purple items, I told him to kill NPC Guards - after three hours of killing NPC Guards the dude realised I had lied and the rage was hilarious.
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  • I feel like character inspection should have a limited radius so some stalker can't check you out from across the field and converge on you if they think you're easy prey.
    Alternative option would be to just make it so you can only inspect people if they are in your party / guild or have some level of association.
  • I would be for a proximity based approach. Inspection are available if you are standing close to that player only. And some notification that you are being inspected.

  • BaSkA_9x2BaSkA_9x2 Member
    edited October 2021
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Dev Discussion - Character Inspection
    What are your thoughts around character and gear inspection, particularly as it relates to settings and options? Should you have the option to allow or disallow others from inspecting your character? Why or why not?

    I don't think it's realistic or good to forcefully allow for players' gear/stats/skills/etc inspection: if I don't wanna share my stats/gear/skill tree/whatever, I should have that privacy. If I wanna show off, I should be able to show off.

    I think that having the option to allow/disallow player inspection is useful: instead of needing to print screen your settings so your friend (or the party leader) can check out your gear, you can simply turn it on and then turn it off. Believing there won't be some sort of "elitism" if there's no player inspection is just naïve: hate the players, not the game.

    EDIT: After reading some ideas, I agree with the idea of only allowing players in your guild/party/request to inspect you or to be proximity based, as long as it's also toggleable.

    TL;DR: Either have a toggleable inspection or don't have inspection at all. Not having any inspection at all isn't good, but it's better than forcing it on people who don't want to have their character inspected.
    🎶Galo é Galo o resto é bosta🎶
  • Sorry, I do not know how this game works or will work so some of my ideas may not make sense. But I think it could be fun if inspecting a character was skill and proximity-based.
    I could look at someone from afar and get a general idea they have plate armor and a short sword with a wooden shield. If I were to move closer maybe more details of that would be revealed, and smaller items like rings or something would become known to me as well. If there is a perception type stat, make that increase the range and detail of what we see when we're checking them out.

    I like this idea. As you progress in this skill the more info you know about what items the player is wearing. At low level you know basic items (or basic stats) and at high level you can see legendary items (or enchantments and item effects.
  • To those who don't want inspection because of privacy reasons:

    Why not swap gear whenever you're not fighting if you're concerned about privacy?

    Maybe it would be a slight hassle, but then Intrepid could add a QoL feature to swap outfits with a single hotkey, and a secondary gear inventory.

    This way, tactical inspection is rewarded. For example, if you sneak around and inspect targets while they are fighting mobs or other players, at least you can get some kind of advantage on them. If gear is hideable, then tactical play like this isn't rewarded.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    bigepeen wrote: »
    To those who don't want inspection because of privacy reasons:

    Why not swap gear whenever you're not fighting if you're concerned about privacy?

    Make myself slightly more defenseless as a 'risk' for the 'reward' of telling you to stop leering at me? Where as I could just have a sensibly implemented inspect system that doesn't tell you the nitty gritty details and just the generalities? Nah. I'm good.
    🔦🔱⚔️Selling pro pain and pro pain accessories. ⚔️🔱🔦
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited October 2021
    I love how the 'game is not for everyone' but then we have these debates each month to hammer out the middle line or to produce exclusions. When I backed, there was no character inspections planned. I would hope we can switch loadouts with ease anyway, because, if you are a tank you will need specific items (I would hope) in order to be attuned to certain endeavours. Of course, the PvE might not be so complex because of the PvP/PvE mix and lack of instanced dungeons overall.

    I have bought cosmetics for my social areas (Like nodes, castles etc) because I'm an RPer. If item load outs can be added then it will be a boon for RPers and non RPers alike. I don't dislike the idea of multiple load out options but I'd rather have a toggle for inspections than free for all inspections. A toggle means you have options and options make for a better experience. When everyone must use a predetermined set of items for specific classes like some MMOs, inspections are fine because you have BiS Lists behind set encounters and everyone aims for a similar or identical load out. In a game where you can build niche, build wide, build narrow or build cookie cutter then free for all inspection at all times becomes life or death.

    I think it is important for gatherers, levellers and general moochers to have the ability to surprise a would be attacker. If you can inspect the gatherers, levellers and general moochers then there is no surprise, just the ganker having an advantage because the inspection has highlighted the fact a toon is weak. When the inspection shows the toon is strong the ganker would simply move on.

    In A1 you could see the opponent's health. You could nuke down the weakest opponents and then focus the stronger opponents in terms of health. This made some classes very overpowered because you could select targets based on known parameters instead of unknown parameters. If you didn't have that health indication, you would have to risk assess the skills you are witnessing and select your targets based on the skills seen. If Ashes wants to continue with limited access to overall health I don't see why you would then allow free for all inspections. The game parameters were fine when it was shielded health and no inspections. If you allow free for all inspections without a toggle you have the strange situation of not being able to see the overall health but you could then simply inspect and glean even more information which would bypass the shielded health.

    Edit: By overall health I meant the indications of health rather than the exact amounts of health, I obviously don't believe the health should be completely hidden.
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  • @JustVine @Neurath Alright, I understand your points of view. I actually don't really care too much either way.

    Regarding hiding health bars... I haven't really played any games with no health bar and where the TtK is more than a couple seconds. Some fps do not have health bars, because you know that just one headshot or a few bodyshots is a kill. I've never seen, say, a MOBA without health bars though. Would it make you more unsure of whom to target? Yes, but I'm not sure that the actual gameplay experience would be better. Most times, whom to target would just be pure guessing based on generalizations of the classes that the enemies are playing. I'm pretty sure this would result in support classes being targeted almost all of the time by default, because you'd have no other information to go on.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    bigepeen wrote: »
    Regarding hiding health bars... I haven't really played any games with no health bar and where the TtK is more than a couple seconds. Some fps do not have health bars, because you know that just one headshot or a few bodyshots is a kill. I've never seen, say, a MOBA without health bars though. Would it make you more unsure of whom to target? Yes, but I'm not sure that the actual gameplay experience would be better. Most times, whom to target would just be pure guessing based on generalizations of the classes that the enemies are playing. I'm pretty sure this would result in support classes being targeted almost all of the time by default, because you'd have no other information to go on.

    Yeah, I understand the position. I can only go by experience right now (I understand the game is subject to change and I understand not all hard counters/classes were available in A1). If we take the sieges as an example the Cleric was able to take on multiple foes and kill multiple foes when BiS was equipped before the nerf. Clerics were buffed with more healing skills and less dps skills, and, more crucially the main damage skill was also nerfed because Clerics could survive multiple people and nuke down foes with ease prior to the nerf.

    There was no real balance in A1 because the tests weren't based on balance or content. The issue remains that balance in the live game will not be balanced around 1vs1 or small vs small, but rather, group vs group or large vs large. If you gimp the heals for the Cleric so that a Cleric can be killed 1vs1 then the large vs large group play will be affected because everyone would be able to nuke the Cleric(Healer). If you make it so the Cleric can out heal a lot of focussed damage (Haven't seen Fighter Class yet which is slated as the healer killer) then large vs large will be more tactical and strategic.

    The current information is quite messy, because, Steven said the skills in A1 were not representative of the classes so I've gone by the skills themselves, not necessarily the classes. However, the combination of skills on the cleric in a1 does indicate that you could out heal the focussed damage for a time, unless, silences, interrupts, mana drains or some other method of wearing a healer down are put in place. Most support players are used to focussed attention - the support class would not be an effective class if it didn't require focussed attention.

    You could take a naked level 1 Cleric with level 1 skills and kill a Tank in Armour at one point - the death of the cleric only came when the cleric ran out of mana. Even the CCs could be countered because you'd drop an AoE and just be CC'd in the AoE (AoE heals like). The combat has so many spheres of opportunity and the combat can be a lot of fun. Risk/reward and hard counters are par for the course and it will be interesting to see how the classes work together or take out specific classes when all classes are available.

    In most MMOs you can't kill a Healer in 1vs1 unless you want a long fight or you have healing reduction debuffs etc. Equally though, those healers aren't always capable of killing the opposition in a 1vs1 unless the fight is long and arduous. When the healer does damage and healing, the healer is a beast and could quite easily beat a lot of classes in 1vs1 when played well.
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  • Rasper NorRasper Nor Member
    edited October 2021
    I really like the idea that some portion rogue classes are able to hide or completely misrepresent their class and equipment, or maybe even specific stat-lines against a highly observant opponent. Of course for that to work, inspection would need to be a part of the meta.

    Personally, I like the idea of a gradient of information, and various factors contributing to more or less info being visible (or accurate). To me, that feels more D&D 3.5.
  • HogutiHoguti Member
    edited October 2021
    If someone inspects a player without permission, it notifies them and gives the offender a debuff allowing the player, including their current party, to PK them with impunity. Debuff removed when killed or after debuff timer. Inspecting additional players without permission increases debuff duration.
    This is my suggestion if the team decides to implement a non-permissive inspection system.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Neurath wrote: »
    I'm not sure that the actual gameplay experience would be better.

    I'm pretty sure it won't make gameplay better.

    Any time a decision has ramifications, and information needed to make that decision is obfuscated, bad times will ensue.

    This is just a fact of life, not of gaming.
  • genuis0481genuis0481 Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I dont see why not. If i just got clapped by someone i would like to know why. Also it can help with gearing. For the "PVP'ers" just make it so you can do it in PVP. Nothing is going to stop ganking. It's part of PVP its going to happen rather they can see your gear or not. Hiding your "Build" isnt going to make you better then anymore. Because there will be someone with a lot more time then you making someone better and sharing it with the internets.
  • I would prefer that inspection not be allowed at all. People will already have an idea of the type of gear being worn by the silhouette, and people can always divulge when asked. But having the default be no inspection seems to encourage immersion rather than stats based playing.
  • JcappJcapp Member
    edited October 2021
    I feel like the correct answer is to allow inspections by default without an option to turn it off.
    If you give people the option to turn it off most will due to a desire for privacy but they wont have thought about what the consequences for having it turned off actually are. In my experience it promotes social behaviors and dynamics. Think back to games you've seen someone and thought, oh that's a neat piece of gear, or hmm that's an interesting spec, or oh hey i wonder what that cosmetic item is? Sure you could actually ask the player these questions, but most people wont. It's also an important way to show off your progress in the game.

    For those that think having the ability to turn it off is good because then people can't judge you for grouping or a guild based on gear, is a good idea in theory but in practice it wont work out like that. If the game has content hard enough that gear becomes important people will just make you turn inspections on before inviting you and if you don't they'll just find someone else.

    The people inspecting you to see if you're ez prey before engaging in pvp with you is a valid concern somewhat i think, but it does work both ways if there's someone nearby with a lot higher gear score then you.. maybe you just don't mess with him or the area they are in.

    Lastly any experienced player wont need to see your gear in the world to decide how geared you are. They'll simply be able to judge it by how much damage your doing to mobs, how fast you kill them, and how much damage the mobs are doing to you.
    At the very least it its able to be turned off, make it so that the people who have it turned off can't inspect anyone either with a cooldown to be able to inspect after they've turned it back on so they cant just quick toggle it. It feels sort of arbitrary if you set it up that way, and kind of third wall breaking, but I think it would better teach people the ramifications of what shutting it off does.

    I do like the proximity suggestions though, there's no reason it needs to be able to be done from 30 yards away or anything. Also context based ability to do it, like not being able to do it in a war is fine. Or maybe you even only allow it in town/sanctuaries.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    WalkingElm wrote: »
    People will already have an idea of the type of gear being worn by the silhouette
    @WalkingElm
    The problem is, this is not at all the case.

    Someone could have the silhouette of a robe and staff, and actually be using top end plate armor, with a sword and shield equipped.

    This situation is one where the other systems in the game (the cosmetic system, in this case) should impact the decision made here.

    Almost all people against an inspect function are basing that opinion on the idea that you could see what gear a player has by looking at them, and in many cases referencing games where this is the case and saying that if it works there, it should work here as well.

    However, since you can in no way tell what gear a player is wearing by looking at them - not even the type of item they are wearing - an inspect function of some sort should be put in to replace that.

    It doesn't need to be a function where you can see every aspect of every item they are wearing, but there should be some inspect function to make up for not being able to readily identify items by looking at players. There are people that are arguing that they don't think you should be able to see every aspect of every item a player is wearing and so are against an inspect function, but these people seem to forget the the world is built on nuance, and the developers are able to add in what functionality they deem appropriate to an inspect function. If they want to make it so inspect only shows the base item and not enchants or enhancements made to it,, they are able to do that.
  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member
    edited October 2021
    As many others have said in the thread, a Character Inspection would be a great feature for Ashes. But it definitely should be a toggle so players who enjoy their privacy can keep their privacy.

    I don't often agree with @Noaani ... but the post above mine is correct on distinguishing gear type.

    With as many cosmetics as Ashes is planning (both in-game and the cash shop), you can be sure that very few players are going to visually display the actual gear they have equipped. Which has worked fine in other MMOs ... such as ESO and BDO.
  • I think inspection should be limited to the visual appearance of the gear. But since there will be transmogs, I guess that ship has sailed a long time ago. Because of this, there must be at least some way to see what the underlying gear actually is (a de-transmoger if you will). I don’t think this should show you things like augments, enhancements etc., but basically only what you would have seen without the transmog shite.

    I do like the suggestion posted above about requiring a maximum distance for inspection. Any information beyond visuals (actual stats, enhancements etc.) should, if implemented, be on a request basis.
  • I think it's very important (in pvp) to be able to roughly see what gear/role another player have, so you can make tactic decisions based on your observations. Otherwise it will only turn into to a boring slug fest promoting quantity, not quality. As I understand it from this thread, if true, you will be able to equip any skin on top of any equipment. I.e. what you thought was a mage is in fact a tank etc. That would be completely immersion and game breaking to me in a pvp scenario. Some sort of indicator has been mentioned, not sure what that is about, why not simply have:

    An option to turn of skins!

    Peace.
  • Since there isn't visual progression in AoC that makes it difficult to assess the power level of your opponents and teammates. At the very least it would make sense to have an inspection to show the ilvl of the character. I don't necessarily think that a complete gear inspection would be necessary, and in the name of immersion I think it's better to have some unknown that you have to learn by interacting with the other player/character
  • Hm. I have read most posts and have to say....

    Inspecting items: toggle option would be fine. It should be my responsibility to allow that. If I want to give my potential ganker info, my choice.

    Inspecting skill? Reminds me of some PVP MUDs that had a "consider" command which leveled with you. It sometimes told you things like "He will massacre you in a blink.." but the actual enemy was a wet toilet paper...you just failed the skill roll. /That/ would be really cool, getting potentially wrong info (in either way) in PvP. :)

    The fact that you can see absolute health/mana/energy whatever (read that in some post in this thread, since i am not in A1) is detrimental to all PVP. It should be a surprise if you jump a weak looking toon only to find out that you bit off more than you can chew. Even relative health is bad (but not very horrible). I would very much like to only see health bars in groups or as an ally.
  • ButtercupCloverButtercupClover Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I made a post on reddit but I just thought of something that is relevant and want to add here. While inspecting has pros and cons, cosmetic items replacing the look of gear could give an advantage over players who don't spend in the cash shop. There would be know way to tell if that cool cosmetic armor is high end gear that you have no chance of even denting or if it's commons grade trash that you could tear through in a second.

    A brief summary of what I put on reddit is allow inspections of gear but not a breakdown of the stats. Show what item is in what slot but don't show the stats attached to said item. If you know the base stats of a piece of gear you may be able to figure out a general estimate but with customized crafted gear, there's no way to know a breakdown of someone's build without them sharing. This would also let players see whether the cool looking full plate warrior is actually just using busted up armor while trying to look good.
  • You guys *do* realize that we'll be able to use looted gear as appearance-gear, correct?

    Any argument about "it's important to know what gear people really have by looking at them" is already an irrelevant and gravitas-less point, given that the cosmetics from the Cash Shop will be *an* option to use for appearance, but not the *only* option.



  • ButtercupCloverButtercupClover Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2021
    While transmog requires similar armor types, you can place a level 1 common grade look on a level 50 epic tier armor piece. Costumes are an even bigger problem as they don't have restrictions. I could be running around in a commoner costume, looking like I have cloth on while wearing full plate. Without inspections it's impossible to tell whether or not you can take a fight. If a level 37 runs around with legendary weapons all you would see is that they're level 37 running around with mediocre armor. They then kill you, a person who is a similar level with what you thought was similar level gear, with no effort. You are then left with an unsatisfying feeling of being cheated because you had no way to tell the other player out-geared you by a mile.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you want inspections to know whether to gank someone I'm against it. If you want inspections to determine whether to fight back or not fight back then you will always lose a fight because while you are inspecting someone, that person will be attacking you. The indicators need to be assessable at a glance to prevent lopsided fights.

    I do not see how inspections will be useful in conflict. The only time they would possibly be useful is pre-raid formation. Any other uses are simply redundant in an active scenario. A toggle would be preferential because you can show your gear pre-group or pre-raid and then you can toggle it off again in the open world.

    The game is a very competitive game from the outset, and, like real life, you should be able to conceal your gold watches and gold necklaces if you don't want to be robbed. It you walk around with all your bling on show, then you can expect to be robbed a lot more. Free for all inspections will increase the amount of ganks, when no inspection will give the defender the upper hand when a ganker faces a twink or a skilled player.
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  • 3Snap3Snap Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    You should be able to inspect any character in the game, via proximity. There shouldn't be a way of stopping someone from inspecting you except to move away from them. This should defidently be in the game especially considering there is a cash shop selling cosmetics, that can easily alter a characters appearance. It would be a feature freely available to all players, so no one would be able to get a unfair advantage via hiding certain gear via full body cosmetics, if another player desires to inspect their character,

    I don't think there should even be a message in game saying "XxxxX is inspecting you". Final fantasy XIV use to have this and it was creepy lol, but the option to inspect another players gear/stats should be avilable to all.
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