Visual progression is only important to some folks; not to all. I like to make my lower-level toons in SWTOR look lower-level in SWTOR - but those options are only broadened by having a large collection of cosmetics.
In addition, there seems to be something that many of you are over-looking: You will be able to use looted/crafted gear as appearance gear; Cosmetics are simply amongst the options for altering this - but they are *NOT* the only options for appearance gear.
Any yes - I'd have to agree with the others; this is terrible, TERRIBLE clicky-bait, you teenage douche.
Okey fine, the title was a bit click baity But no need to get so butthurt over it, noone has gotten hurt over a little bit of click-bait. But for real, i do think this topic is interesting and wanted to hear peoples thought about it.
And I hear you guys. I can agree that there is not an implementation or feature in the game directly that gives people with an awsome apperance a hands on advantage, like rank, gold, items or whatever. But mmos are a highly social ganre where it's the people that makes the game, by the people for the people.
But your saying that it's the developers that makes the rules of what is winning and what is not? Sure, but then can you say that any P2W games exist, if there isn't any developers that have stated that our game is P2W?
It might have been a stupid question about exactly what winning is, and very few people here have taken their time to actually answer my question, thanks to you that have though, you know who you are
@Uncommon Sense definitely an interesting point that i have not thought about
@George Black climb down from your high horse, stop asuming things and answer the question
Ill run you over with my horse
1
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So the one MMO whose owner hates p2w is gong to be super pay to win. seems legit
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Unfortunately, I disagree about wow tokens. By default they are not bad. Its the fact that you can use them to buy gold is bad. They pretty much don't remove the negative stuff that is already there even without them, but do give the good stuff like being able to buy sub for your own gold. Honestly, wow will never be without p2w, with or without tokens. Those asshole gold sellers made sure of that.
Speaking of cosmetics being p2w. They rarely are, unless the game is centered around cosmetics being in the store, they usually aren't that much better. And even if, it's only p2w to some, and others it is not.
Not everyone likes that cosmetic for example, and some do.
Runescape for example, I see a lot of ppl buying all these cosmetics and saying they look cool etc. To me they look ugly af, but after all, I use abyssal armour set with saradomin warpriest helm and some generic long swords... why? Because they look the coolest to me across ALL cosmetics in RS. Did i pay for any of that? Only the helm technically cuz to make gear into cosmetics I need keys...
In the end, there is only subjective p2w because not everyone will consider the given cosmetics as cool.
This opinion comes from someone who is VERY EXTREMELY SUPER PICKY with outfits etc. If I like a cosmetic set, I will purposely cripple myself (in terms of gear and stats) just to look cool. Fashion souls baby!
@Sathrago but isn't the purpose kind of getting loot/items from all the different content. If you can skip the content and purchase loot/items directly without having to do any content, do you not feel that takes something away from the game? You win (got the items) without winning.
@Nerror sorry to piss you off nerror ;( But if you feel visual progression is important and something you care about why don't you feel that it's not p2w?
Would you mind explaining what you feel like winning is and who is to decide what winning is? Is it the game-maker or the gamer?
@Vhaeyne All those games that you listed can be seen as p2w aswell, atleast you win the visual part of the game. I think visuals is something that has been seen through for a long time in gaming culture. You can absolutely win the visual game imo.
Items like gear, mounts, weapons and other visual items is why i'm competing in castle sieges, do dungeons and complete quests, if you can skip all that and go directly for the loot with a money transfer, don't you feel something is off with that aswell?
And what do you feel, is it the game-maker or the "gamer" that decides what winning is?
@BaSkA13 that is a very good summary of what i feel aswell, winning is more or less subjective. And to go out and proudly state that AOC is not going to have any P2W whatsoever is kind of cringeworthy tbh.
And don't get me wrong I love where ashes is going with alot of things, i have bought alpha 2 acess long time ago and really believe this is going to be my next time sink. This is just where i have questions and want to discuss more of. Because I don't like where the gaming industry is taking it with all these in-game items that you can only get from a money transfer.
Cheers
0
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ButtercupCloverMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Sathrago but isn't the purpose kind of getting loot/items from all the different content. If you can skip the content and purchase loot/items directly without having to do any content, do you not feel that takes something away from the game? You win (got the items) without winning.
From what we know the items in the store won't be items that can be crafted or found in game. Maybe a recolor of some but for the most part they will be separate from in-game cosmetics. Cosmetics are just to offer an extra way to stylize your character, not replace the need to get items.
@Sathrago but isn't the purpose kind of getting loot/items from all the different content. If you can skip the content and purchase loot/items directly without having to do any content, do you not feel that takes something away from the game? You win (got the items) without winning.
When you purchase a cosmetic from the shop you are not buying a mount or an actual item for ingame use. You are getting a skin that replaces an item's looks that you have to earn in-game. I understand what you might be trying to say, that the cosmetics form the shop might be higher quality than what is found in-game. That remains to be seen and as far as I can tell they are being quite fair in time spent on both their cosmetics and the ingame gear designs.
Of course this could change in the future but there is no evidence at this time that the game is anywhere close to being Pay-to-Win. At the end of the day some people will like the shop cosmetics more and some will like the in-game cosmetics more. It's all subjective unless Intrepid decide to water down the in-game achievable cosmetics to increase sales.
@Vhaeyne All those games that you listed can be seen as p2w aswell, atleast you win the visual part of the game. I think visuals is something that has been seen through for a long time in gaming culture. You can absolutely win the visual game imo.
You said, "win the visual game"... Imagine feeling like a winner because you have shit gear, can't kill mobs on your own, and get ripped apart by any player that comes near you.
#winning,#visualgod
Items like gear, mounts, weapons and other visual items is why i'm competing in castle sieges, do dungeons and complete quests, if you can skip all that and go directly for the loot with a money transfer, don't you feel something is off with that aswell?
It is not the same loot. Cosmetics are not loot. Cosmetics don't have stats. You can look like the god emperor of Verra for all anyone cares. Your cosmetics will not help you do anything better in the game.
Cosmetics will not make you or your character preform better.
And what do you feel, is it the game-maker or the "gamer" that decides what winning is?
When you are a win at something. No one has to tell you. No one decides.
You can sit down and clear any arcade game with a pocket full of quarters any day of the week. You might get a slight dopamine hit when you beat the game the first time. The game might even tell you that you are a winner at the end.
I am not convinced that you will feel like a true winner at that game until you know the feeling of beating it on one credit.
If you can swipe a credit card and put on an outfit and feel like a winner. If that makes you feel like a winner, I guess that is good for you. I have to really work my ass off and accomplish something I did not know I could do to feel like a winner.
@Nerror sorry to piss you off nerror ;( But if you feel visual progression is important and something you care about why don't you feel that it's not p2w?
Would you mind explaining what you feel like winning is and who is to decide what winning is? Is it the game-maker or the gamer?
When talking about winning in a p2w kind of sense, it has to be measurable. Winning a fight, being first to lvl 50, out-selling other crafters. Something actually quantifiable, beyond a purely subjective opinion. Without that, it is not P2W in any meaningful sense of the word.
You can feel like a winner if you think you look really cool, but others may disagree. A fashion/outfit contest with judges doesn't count either, because again, it's just those people's opinions.
but isn't the purpose kind of getting loot/items from all the different content.
When you are talking about running content of any type to get gear, it is the stats on an item that makes it valuable, not the appearance.
There are a very few exceptions to this - maybe two or three in a games total lifespan. In comparison to tens (or hundreds) of thousands of items in that game used for the stats, those two or three items that are valued for their appearance can be ignored.
You deciding that you place more importance on a side aspect of a game does not mean that the game needs to cater to you.
That is essentially what your issue here is. Grow up.
Delete this topic......
Typical 2021. People claiming that their personal definition of things should be above facts.
That is one way of framing something you don't like.
Apart from that, most of us know, from the available information, that the op's worry is unjustified. That should not stop anyone to ask the question anyway, and does not warrant the negative response.
Soo... I constantly hear that AoC is not going to be pay to win. But what exactly is winning in an mmorpg? How do you WIN in mmo's.
It's easier do define in games like lets say counter strike. Your winning if you win competetive matches and if there is anything you can buy for money that gives you an advantage over people that did not buy the said advantage it's PTW.
Mmorpgs are different. Winning can be so much more.
You hear it all the time from devs, "in this mmo you can do anything and become anyone", crafting, gathering, dungeons/raids, pvp and so much more. You can be the best player and "win" in any of those proffesions/occupations. But there is another way of winning in an mmo. You know what that is? Becoming the best looking.
Achieving the meanest looking apperance have always been a drive for me in games, and always looked up to people that have it, congratulating them for having an awsome apperance. I often hear things like "transmogs/apperance is the real endgame" and to say cosmetics have no role in winning is so wrong imo.
You'r really telling me that there is not a market for visual contest? Asmongolds transmog competitions for a fun example.
For discussion: Are visuals a part of winning in your opinion? If not, what is?
Pay to Win is a model where you pay to gain a significant advantage in a game. Not a "look" advantage but one that actually makes your character STRONGER than others who put in actual work. This is a silly thought, but even if we were to entertain it, Intrepid has stated that they will have really good cosmetics that pay off from hard work as well as the shop. One is not intended to be better than the other, they are just different looks. Sure, you may not be able to look a certain way if you don't buy that look in the shop, but at the same time, there are also going to be good cosmetics that you can get in game without paying for them, so this argument is even flawed. It doesn't seem like you've listened to anything and are just trying to stir the pot. Also, "Best looking" is subjective. You can't claim to be the best looking because someone else will think they might look better. Asmongold's transmog competitions are HIS PERSONAL TASTES. Someone else might think another person looked better. In the scenario of "looking the best", it only depends on what you PERSONALLY like to look like. More than one person can win in this scenario, in fact, ANYONE can win in this scenario, because there are going to be a LOT of cosmetics, I'm sure, allowing anyone to find an outfit that they think looks good and suits them. I will say though their cash shop is a little expensive to me. 15 dollars for a pet cosmetic and 5 dollars for a necklace that you will barely see seems to be a little much to me personally.
Soo... I constantly hear that AoC is not going to be pay to win. But what exactly is winning in an mmorpg? How do you WIN in mmo's.
It's easier do define in games like lets say counter strike. Your winning if you win competetive matches and if there is anything you can buy for money that gives you an advantage over people that did not buy the said advantage it's PTW.
Mmorpgs are different. Winning can be so much more.
You hear it all the time from devs, "in this mmo you can do anything and become anyone", crafting, gathering, dungeons/raids, pvp and so much more. You can be the best player and "win" in any of those proffesions/occupations. But there is another way of winning in an mmo. You know what that is? Becoming the best looking.
Achieving the meanest looking apperance have always been a drive for me in games, and always looked up to people that have it, congratulating them for having an awsome apperance. I often hear things like "transmogs/apperance is the real endgame" and to say cosmetics have no role in winning is so wrong imo.
You'r really telling me that there is not a market for visual contest? Asmongolds transmog competitions for a fun example.
For discussion: Are visuals a part of winning in your opinion? If not, what is?
You are soo right. That's why I have bought "They Dying of the Light" package last month. I hope my enemies will shatter in fear when they see my shiny glowing armor and my graveyard golem mount! xDD /irony off
Yes, Ashes is a p2w mmo for sure, because the game require monthly fee to play and if I don't pay the monthly fee I don't even have chance to compete with other players in Ashes.
Yes, Ashes is a p2w mmo for sure, because the game require monthly fee to play and if I don't pay the monthly fee I don't even have chance to compete with other players in Ashes.
So, don't play Ashes.
Some people say that in all seriousness about expansions.
Miss the old days when people respected a guy because they had some hardcore or lucky obtainable op gear or weapon , they even bowed you in the city, now it s all about fashion, that s how sad mmorpgs become
Yes, Ashes is a p2w mmo for sure, because the game require monthly fee to play and if I don't pay the monthly fee I don't even have chance to compete with other players in Ashes.
So, don't play Ashes.
Some people say that in all seriousness about expansions.
I don't know about those people, I don't mind to pay for expansions but it must worth to pay. I consider expansions fee as a bonus for rewarding all hard work developers, they make the game they and I all love, so I support them as a fan and a player.
To me cosmetics are same as expansions fee, as long as in game gear progression is good and cosmetics are more like a choice not pay to style, I am okay with it, and if Ashes is really like what they said, I will buy some cosmetics I like and hope they will take my money making the game better and taking care their employees.
As long as there are free cosmetics I like I don't really care. I already have cosmetics in other games I play right now. If I don't like ashes cosmetics I'll go right back to the games I'm playing now. lol
You know guys, we have not discussed the most vile of violations when it comes to pay-to-win and it's about time we did.
@Steven Sharif , more like, spend 30 mil to literally build your own game the way you want it to be. Why can't I get the same thing for free? it's just such an unfair advantage he is paying for. If you guys are against pay-to-win you would support the full dismantling of the game so it can be rebuilt, for free, like any good game should be.
KarthosMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2021
You can come to any conclusion you want if you walk your argument through enough "chains of evidence" by making logic leaps and thinking that words have fluid definitions.
This thread was posted on the AOC forms
AOC is an MMO
The person who posted this plays MMOs
If you play MMOs, you own a computer
You can use your computer to to break the law
Breaking the law makes you a criminal
The person who posted this is a criminal.
Headed back on topic, here's another example.
I define "winning" as having fun.
I can't have "fun" if I don't log in
I can't "log in" if I don't have a subscription
I can't "have a subscription" if I don't pay money
Comments
In addition, there seems to be something that many of you are over-looking: You will be able to use looted/crafted gear as appearance gear; Cosmetics are simply amongst the options for altering this - but they are *NOT* the only options for appearance gear.
Any yes - I'd have to agree with the others; this is terrible, TERRIBLE clicky-bait, you teenage douche.
Ill run you over with my horse
p2w only for undead players
how else do you think I got my lifetime sub
That's true. People like me and you with a lifetime subscription are the only Pay to Win that AoC will ever see.
Being a winner feels nice.
Not everyone likes that cosmetic for example, and some do.
Runescape for example, I see a lot of ppl buying all these cosmetics and saying they look cool etc. To me they look ugly af, but after all, I use abyssal armour set with saradomin warpriest helm and some generic long swords... why? Because they look the coolest to me across ALL cosmetics in RS. Did i pay for any of that? Only the helm technically cuz to make gear into cosmetics I need keys...
In the end, there is only subjective p2w because not everyone will consider the given cosmetics as cool.
This opinion comes from someone who is VERY EXTREMELY SUPER PICKY with outfits etc. If I like a cosmetic set, I will purposely cripple myself (in terms of gear and stats) just to look cool. Fashion souls baby!
Would you mind explaining what you feel like winning is and who is to decide what winning is? Is it the game-maker or the gamer?
Items like gear, mounts, weapons and other visual items is why i'm competing in castle sieges, do dungeons and complete quests, if you can skip all that and go directly for the loot with a money transfer, don't you feel something is off with that aswell?
And what do you feel, is it the game-maker or the "gamer" that decides what winning is?
And don't get me wrong I love where ashes is going with alot of things, i have bought alpha 2 acess long time ago and really believe this is going to be my next time sink. This is just where i have questions and want to discuss more of. Because I don't like where the gaming industry is taking it with all these in-game items that you can only get from a money transfer.
Cheers
From what we know the items in the store won't be items that can be crafted or found in game. Maybe a recolor of some but for the most part they will be separate from in-game cosmetics. Cosmetics are just to offer an extra way to stylize your character, not replace the need to get items.
When you purchase a cosmetic from the shop you are not buying a mount or an actual item for ingame use. You are getting a skin that replaces an item's looks that you have to earn in-game. I understand what you might be trying to say, that the cosmetics form the shop might be higher quality than what is found in-game. That remains to be seen and as far as I can tell they are being quite fair in time spent on both their cosmetics and the ingame gear designs.
Of course this could change in the future but there is no evidence at this time that the game is anywhere close to being Pay-to-Win. At the end of the day some people will like the shop cosmetics more and some will like the in-game cosmetics more. It's all subjective unless Intrepid decide to water down the in-game achievable cosmetics to increase sales.
You said, "win the visual game"... Imagine feeling like a winner because you have shit gear, can't kill mobs on your own, and get ripped apart by any player that comes near you.
#winning,#visualgod
It is not the same loot. Cosmetics are not loot. Cosmetics don't have stats. You can look like the god emperor of Verra for all anyone cares. Your cosmetics will not help you do anything better in the game.
Cosmetics will not make you or your character preform better.
When you are a win at something. No one has to tell you. No one decides.
You can sit down and clear any arcade game with a pocket full of quarters any day of the week. You might get a slight dopamine hit when you beat the game the first time. The game might even tell you that you are a winner at the end.
I am not convinced that you will feel like a true winner at that game until you know the feeling of beating it on one credit.
If you can swipe a credit card and put on an outfit and feel like a winner. If that makes you feel like a winner, I guess that is good for you. I have to really work my ass off and accomplish something I did not know I could do to feel like a winner.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
When talking about winning in a p2w kind of sense, it has to be measurable. Winning a fight, being first to lvl 50, out-selling other crafters. Something actually quantifiable, beyond a purely subjective opinion. Without that, it is not P2W in any meaningful sense of the word.
You can feel like a winner if you think you look really cool, but others may disagree. A fashion/outfit contest with judges doesn't count either, because again, it's just those people's opinions.
There are a very few exceptions to this - maybe two or three in a games total lifespan. In comparison to tens (or hundreds) of thousands of items in that game used for the stats, those two or three items that are valued for their appearance can be ignored.
You deciding that you place more importance on a side aspect of a game does not mean that the game needs to cater to you.
That is essentially what your issue here is. Grow up.
Aren't we all sinners?
That is one way of framing something you don't like.
Apart from that, most of us know, from the available information, that the op's worry is unjustified. That should not stop anyone to ask the question anyway, and does not warrant the negative response.
Pay to Win is a model where you pay to gain a significant advantage in a game. Not a "look" advantage but one that actually makes your character STRONGER than others who put in actual work. This is a silly thought, but even if we were to entertain it, Intrepid has stated that they will have really good cosmetics that pay off from hard work as well as the shop. One is not intended to be better than the other, they are just different looks. Sure, you may not be able to look a certain way if you don't buy that look in the shop, but at the same time, there are also going to be good cosmetics that you can get in game without paying for them, so this argument is even flawed. It doesn't seem like you've listened to anything and are just trying to stir the pot. Also, "Best looking" is subjective. You can't claim to be the best looking because someone else will think they might look better. Asmongold's transmog competitions are HIS PERSONAL TASTES. Someone else might think another person looked better. In the scenario of "looking the best", it only depends on what you PERSONALLY like to look like. More than one person can win in this scenario, in fact, ANYONE can win in this scenario, because there are going to be a LOT of cosmetics, I'm sure, allowing anyone to find an outfit that they think looks good and suits them. I will say though their cash shop is a little expensive to me. 15 dollars for a pet cosmetic and 5 dollars for a necklace that you will barely see seems to be a little much to me personally.
You are soo right. That's why I have bought "They Dying of the Light" package last month. I hope my enemies will shatter in fear when they see my shiny glowing armor and my graveyard golem mount! xDD /irony off
So, don't play Ashes.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
Some people say that in all seriousness about expansions.
I don't know about those people, I don't mind to pay for expansions but it must worth to pay. I consider expansions fee as a bonus for rewarding all hard work developers, they make the game they and I all love, so I support them as a fan and a player.
To me cosmetics are same as expansions fee, as long as in game gear progression is good and cosmetics are more like a choice not pay to style, I am okay with it, and if Ashes is really like what they said, I will buy some cosmetics I like and hope they will take my money making the game better and taking care their employees.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
U.S. East
@Steven Sharif , more like, spend 30 mil to literally build your own game the way you want it to be. Why can't I get the same thing for free? it's just such an unfair advantage he is paying for. If you guys are against pay-to-win you would support the full dismantling of the game so it can be rebuilt, for free, like any good game should be.
This thread was posted on the AOC forms
AOC is an MMO
The person who posted this plays MMOs
If you play MMOs, you own a computer
You can use your computer to to break the law
Breaking the law makes you a criminal
The person who posted this is a criminal.
Headed back on topic, here's another example.
I define "winning" as having fun.
I can't have "fun" if I don't log in
I can't "log in" if I don't have a subscription
I can't "have a subscription" if I don't pay money
When you "pay money" it makes a game Pay to Win
Therefore, you always have to Pay to Win