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AOC the next PAY TO WIN mmo

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Comments

  • OrymOrym Member, Alpha Two
    @Karthos yeah that was more or less my question from the beginning. If winning is something set in stone. That winning only means a certain thing or if its more of a gray area. But if your saying that winning in a virtual or real game can only be achieved by doing something specific, then it's only my lack of understanding the english language that stired up so much trigger :smiley:

    @insomnia luckily we have a really smart and intelligent person with us in this thread that can in great detail explain to us that are not as bright exactly where that line goes, what is winning and what is not. Beacuse if something isn't PAY to win there has to be ways OF winning by not paying. What are those ways? Thank you!
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    Nope, still silly.

    You're attempting to take an understood concept of P2W - which is about short-cutting linear progression via real currency - and speciously correlating that 'win' to some hyper-subjective concept like 'fun.' So you can move the goal posts wherever you want, but you're just playing silly games imo.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Orym wrote: »
    . Beacuse if something isn't PAY to win there has to be ways OF winning by not paying. What are those ways? Thank you!
    Winning in an MMO is progressing - whether that is combat or crafting (the limit of most MMO progression), and potentially naval in Ashes.

    Anything else is a personal goal, and that doesn't count in terms of winning.

    Is that a bright enough line for you?
  • mfckingjokermfckingjoker Member, Alpha Two
    So you're saying that someone who looks better can perform better or win sth just with that ? this doesn't make any sense. I'm against cosmetics in cash shop but still they give no advantage and never should. Unless u have a total different definition of "winning" idk
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  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited November 2021
    Unless u have a total different definition of "winning" idk

    They do have a different definition of "winning". The key is that people don't get to make up their own personal definitions and then chastise the developer for not abiding by them. I mean, they can do that, but they look stupid when they do.

    There is a pretty clear definition of what "pay to win" is, and when a game developer claims that they will avoid it, then you know what they mean. If you try to pull some stunt like trying to change the definition of "pay" and/or "win" to something that isn't the industry standard, nobody is going to support you because you're out of your mind.

    Why don't you declare that kale is meat and try to organize a boycott of a vegetarian restaurant and see how far you get. B)
     
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  • insomniainsomnia Member
    edited November 2021
    Orym wrote: »
    @Karthos yeah that was more or less my question from the beginning. If winning is something set in stone. That winning only means a certain thing or if its more of a gray area. But if your saying that winning in a virtual or real game can only be achieved by doing something specific, then it's only my lack of understanding the english language that stired up so much trigger :smiley:

    @insomnia luckily we have a really smart and intelligent person with us in this thread that can in great detail explain to us that are not as bright exactly where that line goes, what is winning and what is not. Beacuse if something isn't PAY to win there has to be ways OF winning by not paying. What are those ways? Thank you!

    Now you are just being a troll. But you were that to being with, with the topic
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    So what you're saying is... Even if I completely destroy you in PvP and take all of your loot and successfully siege against your node... You still win if you look better than me while I do it?
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  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited November 2021
    Dolyem wrote: »
    So what you're saying is... Even if I completely destroy you in PvP and take all of your loot and successfully siege against your node... You still win if you look better than me while I do it?
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  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Me with mismatching skins on every armor slot
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  • Before BDO totally became P2W the fluffy Sexy outfits were one of the best sellers. So I understand were the OP is coming from. However I also see a need for the game to make a profit and those that want to have that must die for outfit buy it is ok. As long as you can over time get decent in game skins. Also that this shop doesn't become the norm and they add other P2S stuff.
  • SweatycupSweatycup Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited November 2021
    I like to pretend i'm a peasant and surprise attack other high level people.. am i winning? When can we get a tattered boring looking homeless look so i look like a newbie? On a more serious note the issue of p2w for skins has already been defined that those sets will not compare to the detail of a achievable set or armor/etc in-game. Not concerned. There is no swagger to bought cosmetic sets, most games people who hate the idea would just target you anyway in hate or dislike.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Sweatycup wrote: »
    When can we get a tattered boring looking homeless look so i look like a newbie?
    Just make a Tulnar.
     
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  • KeeperBrGOKeeperBrGO Member, Alpha Two
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    I'm so glad I was born in the 80's.

    😳😳😳
  • OrymOrym Member, Alpha Two
    @insomnia from a simple search the definition seems to be if there is an unfair advantage or something that enhances the player experience . Cosmetics, mounts, pets all kind of items might not give an unfair advantage but it surely gives an enhanced experience imo, don't you think?
  • OrymOrym Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 2021
    @CROW3 you are short cutting linear progression when you don't have to do anything besides slide your credit card to get in-game items.

    Please further explain what your understanding of what p2w has been/is.

    Edit: So you don't agree that if something enhances the player experience its a form of p2w?
    And also, yeah how dare I bring in terms lite having fun in games, lol . That is almost entirely the purpose of games, which is kind of the difference between sports and games, right?
  • Orym wrote: »
    @insomnia from a simple search the definition seems to be if there is an unfair advantage or something that enhances the player experience . Cosmetics, mounts, pets all kind of items might not give an unfair advantage but it surely gives an enhanced experience imo, don't you think?

    What looks good, is a personal oppinion. So not really
  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member, Alpha Two
    Orym wrote: »
    Please further explain what your understanding of what p2w has been/is.

    Just do an internet search on the definition of pay-to-win, @Orym, and paste it in your thread here.

    That will show other forum-goers you aren't evading the topic.
  • OrymOrym Member, Alpha Two
    @Taleof2Cities
    According to Cyberdefinitions.com:
    "PTW is used in gaming with the meaning "Pay to Win" to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPCs (Non-Player Characters).
    P2W is a very controversial aspect of gaming, especially in MP (Multiplayer) games. Many players strongly object to people being able to pay to trump their own hard-earned experience or superior skills."

    Key words here are advantage. Could be argued that it is an advantage of looking better + not having to do any content= time saver. And it also falls under the fact that it does "trump their own hard-earned experience".

    According to someone on Urbandictionary:
    "The sad proof that gaming is in its most dead and soul-less state so far.
    Several games nowadays have the option to pay real money to enhance the experience of the player, often frustrating him unless he pays up.
    Good ways to milk players of the money they thought they wouldn't spend in the game include: energy bars that reduce the time he can devote to his game, huge timers that need to be reduced for the player to be able to continue his journey, better gear to deal with players that don't want to pay, and, the most common one, the existence of a currency in the game that can't be earned without your credit card."

    As i said before aswell the fact that you can "pay real money to enhance the experience of the player" does more than enough apply to all kinds of items you can only get by paying.

    I don't think this P2W thing is as clear as you guys make it out to be. But please continue the conversation and let me know what you don't agree with, because im not convinced im totally wrong just yet :smiley:
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @Orym Nah, pay to win is definitely a mechanical advantage. If it was a beauty pageant then you may be on to something. But by the standards of gameplay and being able to defeat an enemy player or complete an objective or quest, aesthetics aren't a pay to win. It may suck for a completionist, but that style of gameplay isn't actually affecting anyone else in the game. A completionist chooses to complete everything, and in doing so it has zero affect on players around them, in other words it isn't a competition that directly affects the community. Pay to win implies buying an advantage over other players, which looking good isn't a qualifying factor of "winning" against another player.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited December 2021
    Orym wrote: »
    Key words here are advantage. Could be argued that it is an advantage of looking better + not having to do any content= time saver.
    It could be argued.

    OK, argue it.

    My point with this is that the point of doing content is to gain rewards to do more difficult content. The rewards of one set of content acting as a key for the next set of content.

    As such, there is no content that you need to do for appearance.

    Now, there may well be an appearance item you like the look of. However, since appearance is subjective, it is as likely that the appearance you like would be on early gear as it is that it will be on harder to obtain gear.

    If you then opt to do content to get that look that the content offered, good for you.

    On the other hand, if you just buy a look off the store and don't do that content, that is a choice you can make. Since you weren't going to do that content for the reason the content exists, it doesn't matter if you still don't do it.

    If you wish to buy appearances and not do content, have at it.

    If you want to do content and have more appearance, each with more variety, have at it.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    @orym -

    If monetized visual progression shatters your mojo, that ship sailed about 15 years ago. If you want to have a conversation about that, great.

    But this p2w point you’re attempting is just awkward origami. AoC isn’t Project Runway.
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  • BoanergeseBoanergese Member, Alpha Two
    Orym wrote: »
    Okey fine, the title was a bit click baity :D But no need to get so butthurt over it, noone has gotten hurt over a little bit of click-bait. But for real, i do think this topic is interesting and wanted to hear peoples thought about it.
    And I hear you guys. I can agree that there is not an implementation or feature in the game directly that gives people with an awsome apperance a hands on advantage, like rank, gold, items or whatever. But mmos are a highly social ganre where it's the people that makes the game, by the people for the people.

    But your saying that it's the developers that makes the rules of what is winning and what is not? Sure, but then can you say that any P2W games exist, if there isn't any developers that have stated that our game is P2W?

    It might have been a stupid question about exactly what winning is, and very few people here have taken their time to actually answer my question, thanks to you that have though, you know who you are :)

    @Uncommon Sense definitely an interesting point that i have not thought about

    @George Black climb down from your high horse, stop asuming things and answer the question

    How did this conversation in any way benefit the community? Traditionally, play to win are things that effect the combat of a game which give a player an advantage that the rest of the community can't obtain. Like in Black Desert Online you can give your characters levels making yourself much more powerful that another player couldn't grind in time. So, I pay $10,000 to make my character level 200 which would take 20 years to obtain through quests while everyone else is level 40. I laugh at your poor people as I triumph not through skill, but based on the fact there isn't a level cap.

    A second concept that people don't think about and isn't rarely discussed is your actual time as a person. I like doing raids, quests, and crafting; however, ask yourself this question. If it takes 100 hours to obtain an item and you earn $10 an hour in real life, then that item is worth $1,000 because you could have been working overtime or working a second job earning that money. You are trading the potential of earning real money for the value of getting an imaginary item by having to grind many hours for it. Selling the shiny item on the store for $40 could make you $960 richer. Don't get me wrong. It is fun to play video games and unplug from the stresses of real life. I also like the satisfaction of grinding for a legendary weapon and being in the minority of players who have it. Having an item that only 1 in 5000 players have is a cool feeling. I like transmog, but if you did a survey, I think more people play an MMO for the quests, story, raid, combat, etc. I don't most people would consider cosmetics end game. Of course, the great thing about an MMO is you can set your own personal goals so winning is whatever you personally define it as.
  • EnthusedEnthused Member, Alpha Two
    Cosmetics is not p2w.
  • RazThemunRazThemun Member, Alpha Two
    I view pay to win as being able to purchase something that gives you better stats or abilities to do something. Buying a 220-stat bow with the swipe of a debit card is pay to win (buying just a cool looking skin for a currently equipped bow is not) Using a debit card to buy a mount that offers Armour repairs is pay to win (buying a skin for your mount to look different is not) How you look in game does not put me at a disadvantage as a player... You being able to do additional things because you simply swiped a card does.
  • TheDarkPaladinTheDarkPaladin Member, Alpha Two
    cosmetics can be pay to win in some games, for example fps game such as BF2042 where I have a big advantage because of my winter skin that I got for pre ordering but I don't see AoC or most MMOs as a game where cosmetics could end up being P2W
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    RazThemun wrote: »
    I view pay to win as being able to purchase something that gives you better stats or abilities to do something.

    Because that’s what the definition is. That’s what it means in the video game industry. There are clowns who make up their own definition divorced from reality so that they have something to whine about.
     
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