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AOC the next PAY TO WIN mmo

Soo... I constantly hear that AoC is not going to be pay to win. But what exactly is winning in an mmorpg? How do you WIN in mmo's.
It's easier do define in games like lets say counter strike. Your winning if you win competetive matches and if there is anything you can buy for money that gives you an advantage over people that did not buy the said advantage it's PTW.
Mmorpgs are different. Winning can be so much more.

You hear it all the time from devs, "in this mmo you can do anything and become anyone", crafting, gathering, dungeons/raids, pvp and so much more. You can be the best player and "win" in any of those proffesions/occupations. But there is another way of winning in an mmo. You know what that is? Becoming the best looking.

Achieving the meanest looking apperance have always been a drive for me in games, and always looked up to people that have it, congratulating them for having an awsome apperance. I often hear things like "transmogs/apperance is the real endgame" :smiley: and to say cosmetics have no role in winning is so wrong imo.
You'r really telling me that there is not a market for visual contest? Asmongolds transmog competitions for a fun example.

For discussion: Are visuals a part of winning in your opinion? If not, what is?
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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited November 2021
    Delete this topic......
    Typical 2021. People claiming that their personal definition of things should be above facts.

    If you want a meaningful discussion take out the words "win" and let's talk about how people are spoiled and they want to look good without putting the time to achieve visual progression.
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    TalentsTalents Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited November 2021
    Cosmetics do not give an in-game advantage so no I don't class it as P2W. To me anything other than cosmetics is P2W. So inventory slots, RNG accessory boxes, actual equipment, in-game gold currency, etc. That stuff is P2W. A guy with a $25 cosmetic has no advantage in-game over others.

    WoW has in-game purchasable cosmetics as well, it's why Asmon doesn't allow people to use Blizzcon items or Swift Spectral Tiger etc. because those are paid for with real money. If you want to have those transmog competitions in Ashes, just exclude paid cosmetics, it's that easy.
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    @George Black what is my defenition again? That visuals are part of winning? If that is not winning then what is George?
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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Orym wrote: »
    @George Black what is my defenition again? That visuals are part of winning? If that is not winning then what is George?

    That is not winning
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    MybroViajeroMybroViajero Member
    edited November 2021
    If you think your character looks better or is "winning" because you got a $50 cosmetic vs my character that looks like it is the result of many hours of work, dedication and effort, then honestly you've never played an true MMO.

    P2W style can never give you what effort, dedication gives you in an true MMO, your own respect as an MMO player.

    Btw, If you think AoC has or will have some P2W (whatever you consider P2W), you should first ask Steven about a certain bear, after you find out the answer you will realize that AoC is being built solidly with foundations and respecting itself, that is why it is against all P2W.


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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited November 2021
    To pick up on this, it seems that fashion has been the OPs endgame. Which shows the sad state of mmo content in the past 15 years.
    And that is why he takes issue with shop cosmetics, which I also dont like, but I wouldnt use a clickbait, spreading misinformation, in order to start a conversation.
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    SathragoSathrago Member
    edited November 2021
    Gotta agree with George on this one, Pay-to-Win is strictly about purchasing a mechanical advantage over other players that do not pay for it.

    Equipping a cosmetic does not increase your damage, heal you, give you +20 gold per kill, or make you jump 1% farther.

    They just look different and what you think looks like the coolest set in the world might make someone else recoil in disgust.
    5000x1000px_sathrago_commission_ravenjuu_1.jpg?ex=665ce6c0&is=665b9540&hm=1fa03cbbd9ea4d641eaf4ca6f133d013d392b1968d6ca9add7d433259c509d09&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I find visuals and visual progression important. I don't like the FOMO nature of the cosmetics shop. With that said, it is not p2w and your click-baity title kinda pisses me off.
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    We had this discussion before on another post, paid cosmetics, as much as I hate them, they are not pay to win. I think we are getting too much every month tho, the base game will come with a bunch of weird mounts and lots of cosmetics. I don't like that.
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    pyrealpyreal Member, Warrior of Old
    Personally I don't care about visual appearance in MMOs. If its doesn't look like crap I'm fine with it. I don't have a need to 'outshine' others.
    This being the case I don't mind a cosmetic shop in the least.
    I also feel that, more than likely, I'll end up using it.

    I agree with those who stated the OPs title was click-bait.
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    This is just silly. 🤨
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    OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I'm so glad I was born in the 80's.
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    VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Orym wrote: »
    For discussion: Are visuals a part of winning in your opinion? If not, what is?

    IMO:

    No, visuals are not a part of winning. Consider other online competitive games(Ashes is competitive, I assure you.). Mobas, FPS, Battle Royale, and the like. These games all have cosmetic skins.

    What those cosmetics skins can't do for you is make you win more matches or get into ranked content. The same can be said for Ashes. Cosmetic skins are not going to get you into a good guild or raid group. Cosmetics are not going to make you succeed in a node or castle siege. Cosmetics will not make you more economically successful or increase your stats. You will still only play at whatever skill level you personally can preform at as a human. Cosmetics will only make you visually look different while you play the game.

    Winning and losing is in your hands, not your cosmetics, not your wallet.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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    Orym wrote: »
    @George Black what is my defenition again? That visuals are part of winning? If that is not winning then what is George?

    Encouraging an active and engaging discussion is way different than using a baited thread topic and answering a 2+ year forum member's response with enigmatic questions.

    Anyone can Google the definition of "pay-to-win" and know it doesn't apply to cosmetic appearance.
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    No, visual progression is not winning in any game with cosmetics and/or transmog
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    This is not the first time this discussion has been brought up in these forums and it certainly won't be the last.

    I believe the outcome of this discussion should be the following:

    P2W is subjective - it shouldn't be, but it is anyway.

    Let me give you some examples:
    • Some (dumb) people think that buying BiS items isn't P2W and some people do.
    • Some (stupid) people think that buying buffs that make your character stronger or give you EXP bonuses isn't P2W and some people do.
    • Some (weird) people think that buying items that increase your chance to successfully enchant items isn't P2W and some people do.
    • Some (ignorant) people think that WoW Tokens/OSRS Bonds/Buying in-game currency from other players with real money through legitimate game systems isn't P2W and some people do.
    • Some (clueless) people think that buying extra inventory/bank slots isn't P2W and some people do.
    • Some people think that buying extra character slots isn't P2W and some people do.
    • Some people think that buying cosmetic items isn't P2W and some people do.

    In my opinion, most of the above are P2W but some are acceptable and some aren't.

    If I could play a new MMORPG in 2021 with no Cash Shop, I would. Sadly that game doesn't exist, therefore I chose to accept Ashes' Cash Shop and play the game until I decide its Cash Shop is no longer acceptable.

    Intrepid decided what their Cash Shop will sell and that will (hopefully) never change. If you think cosmetics are P2W because visual progression is something very important to you I would say you're not 100% wrong and that you're entitled to think that, but unfortunately that won't make Intrepid refund all the thousands of skins sold in the past few years.

    The days of "Classic WoW levels of visual progression" are probably gone, which is unfortunate. OSRS still has some of that, but I've wasted enough of my life playing that. Maybe the good old days of MMORPGs without Cash Shops will come back one day, but it won't be with Ashes.

    In any case, I do believe Steven when he says in-game items will look just as good, if not better, than skins.

    Cheers
    🎶Galo é Galo o resto é bosta🎶
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    Jesus
    Fucking
    Christ...

    it is a troll, isnt it?
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    ButtercupCloverButtercupClover Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Cosmetics may play a decent part in how you experience the game, true. Ashes is a very community driven game so looking good may get you brownie points with people that end up giving you help. There are also those that may target you for your cosmetics though, jealous players or even people who think cosmetic shop items are pay to win may hunt you down for the fact that you paid money to look good instead of grinding like them. Ashes has also shown off that in game cosmetics will be just as good and detailed as cash shop cosmetics so it might be better to just use default skins.

    That all said, cosmetic gear does not give you stat bonuses. There are games out right now that let you charge a credit card for an increase in power level. GW2 lets you buy straight up gold with the paid for gems, Elyon sells an item that increases your max damage permanently and can be increased through more purchasing, Black Desert and many many other games sell items that increase XP gains allowing you to reach higher levels faster than others. That is what pay to win is, a definitive advantage over others through purchasing in game items with real cash. Cosmetics may give social advantages, but as I said before it could also give you disadvantages.
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    VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Darknezzz wrote: »
    Jesus
    Fucking
    Christ...

    it is a troll, isnt it?

    I feel ya. I think that every time myself.

    Sadly, it is frowned upon to accuse OP of trolling around here unless it is extremely overt. The best you can do with these posts is try to make a good counterpoint.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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    Uncommon SenseUncommon Sense Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    This old Chestnut. I agree for the most part Cosmetic items are typically not P2W. not stat increase basic interpretation.

    There is a grey area however with store bought cosmetic only items giving a competitive advantage.
    That is when the cosmetic has an attributed effect or animation that masks/manipulates/alters an in game mechanic visually or audibly and by doing so can effect competitive outcomes.

    Ive seen it it happen in team based shooter games and at a high tier of competitive play any advantage is still an advantage.

    The example of winning is raiding your caravan and looting your corpse. Looks are superficial and subjective.

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    VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    This old Chestnut. I agree for the most part Cosmetic items are typically not P2W. not stat increase basic interpretation.

    There is a grey area however with store bought cosmetic only items giving a competitive advantage.
    That is when the cosmetic has an attributed effect or animation that masks/manipulates/alters an in game mechanic visually or audibly and by doing so can effect competitive outcomes.

    Ive seen it it happen in team based shooter games and at a high tier of competitive play any advantage is still an advantage.

    The example of winning is raiding your caravan and looting your corpse. Looks are superficial and subjective.

    While I agree with your point wholeheartedly, cosmetic skins can be a double-edged sword. I have seen skins in "Smite" for example make the character way easier to hit. I don't play many other shooters or MOBAs, but I can bet that is the case for other like games.

    Nothing like someone walking around with a skin that glows like the sun in a game where aim is important.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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    Uncommon SenseUncommon Sense Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    In the Team shooter Palladins there is Witch character who has a fly on a broom ability, Depending on which cosmetic skins were used this flying skill animation had different audio. The Halloween skin had screeching bats and the Christmas skin had jingling bells. then they made skin where the audio was lower volume to all the other skins...At a competitive level the low audio cosmetic skin was basically mandatory.
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    This old Chestnut. I agree for the most part Cosmetic items are typically not P2W. not stat increase basic interpretation.

    There is a grey area however with store bought cosmetic only items giving a competitive advantage.
    That is when the cosmetic has an attributed effect or animation that masks/manipulates/alters an in game mechanic visually or audibly and by doing so can effect competitive outcomes.

    Ive seen it it happen in team based shooter games and at a high tier of competitive play any advantage is still an advantage.

    The example of winning is raiding your caravan and looting your corpse. Looks are superficial and subjective.

    TFT and Fornite are P2W ?? I do not think so.


    the TFT with yasuo's sand appearance,
    you won the draws against people, no, I didn't have it
    I gained a couple of seconds on the run.

    Fornite with a gesture you gained a movement to dodge

    Ashes hide your gear or true mount form with a look
    they can give you a slight advantage in combat
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    Uncommon SenseUncommon Sense Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I said it was a grey area.
    You just listed some examples of store bought advantages that do not cohere to the Stat only conception of P2W.

    If you don't consider these advantages as advantages then what are they?

    A competitive edge no?

    But because they are "just cosmetics" it's fine right?

    Often overlooked because for the most part people who buy cosmetics aren't really that competitive to care.


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    Uncommon SenseUncommon Sense Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Not sure but I believe in GW2 people used to use novelty store bought items to aid in speed running instances where the items would give additional speed and jump boosts...I think they eventually fixed the issue.
    However it is possible to convert/exchange game gold currency into cash shop gem currency in GW2 so it's not really a P2W situation.

    Have to remember its a strictly real world monetary to in game item purchase that establishes a p2w transaction.
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    I said it was a grey area.
    You just listed some examples of store bought advantages that do not cohere to the Stat only conception of P2W.

    If you don't consider these advantages as advantages then what are they?

    A competitive edge no?

    But because they are "just cosmetics" it's fine right?

    Often overlooked because for the most part people who buy cosmetics aren't really that competitive to care.


    I agree with you cosmetics are a gray area that can be used to have a slight advantage
    It will depend on how these types of cosmetics are

    Will hiding a mount or gear form be an advantage?
    Let's imagine a group of 8 that are dressed the same, their role will not be hidden and it is more difficult to end their healer ??
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    ButtercupCloverButtercupClover Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    getpatxi wrote: »
    I agree with you cosmetics are a gray area that can be used to have a slight advantage
    It will depend on how these types of cosmetics are

    Will hiding a mount or gear form be an advantage?
    Let's imagine a group of 8 that are dressed the same, their role will not be hidden and it is more difficult to end their healer ??

    There will most likely still be an easy way to determine the healer. Even if not people could coordinate their builds to visually look the same without use of cosmetics. The problem with cosmetics in a competitive situation is determining strength of a character. In the alpha you could easily gauge how geared someone is just by looking at their armor set. If a skin is applied over it, there's no way to tell whether they are running around in starter gear or full set of epic. There's a slight advantage over someone who didn't pay for a skin as the person with no skin is showing off their gear while the person with a skin has concealed what they have.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Orym wrote: »
    For discussion: Are visuals a part of winning in your opinion? If not, what is?
    No, and I pity those that think they are. Looks are subjective, so there is no real way they can be considered "winning".

    if you consider visuals to be winning, yet you prefer a realistic aesthetic, what progression do you have past the first few levels of most games?

    id you consider visuals to be winning, and the game produces a look that is absolutely perfect for you, have you then won that game forever?

    What if a game never produces a look that is what you want? is it then impossible for you to win that game?

    "Winning" in an MMO means one of three things to me. Either you are killing the hardest encounters in the game, you are killing the most players in the game, or you are making the most money in the game.

    The thing to keep in mind in regards to all of the discussions about cosmetics being pay to win (by concealing gear/mounts/whatever), is that not all cosmetics are bought. The game will have cosmetics that you can earn in game, meaning you can hide your gear/mounts/whatever without purchasing anything, meaning that even if there were an advantage to have in this regard, it is not pay to win as you do not need to pay to get that advantage.
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    maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    giphy.gif

    (though I'm thoroughly entertained hahahaha)
    I wish I were deep and tragic
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    Okey fine, the title was a bit click baity :D But no need to get so butthurt over it, noone has gotten hurt over a little bit of click-bait. But for real, i do think this topic is interesting and wanted to hear peoples thought about it.
    And I hear you guys. I can agree that there is not an implementation or feature in the game directly that gives people with an awsome apperance a hands on advantage, like rank, gold, items or whatever. But mmos are a highly social ganre where it's the people that makes the game, by the people for the people.

    But your saying that it's the developers that makes the rules of what is winning and what is not? Sure, but then can you say that any P2W games exist, if there isn't any developers that have stated that our game is P2W?

    It might have been a stupid question about exactly what winning is, and very few people here have taken their time to actually answer my question, thanks to you that have though, you know who you are :)

    @Uncommon Sense definitely an interesting point that i have not thought about

    @George Black climb down from your high horse, stop asuming things and answer the question
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