Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!
Options
AOC the next PAY TO WIN mmo
Orym
Member
Soo... I constantly hear that AoC is not going to be pay to win. But what exactly is winning in an mmorpg? How do you WIN in mmo's.
It's easier do define in games like lets say counter strike. Your winning if you win competetive matches and if there is anything you can buy for money that gives you an advantage over people that did not buy the said advantage it's PTW.
Mmorpgs are different. Winning can be so much more.
You hear it all the time from devs, "in this mmo you can do anything and become anyone", crafting, gathering, dungeons/raids, pvp and so much more. You can be the best player and "win" in any of those proffesions/occupations. But there is another way of winning in an mmo. You know what that is? Becoming the best looking.
Achieving the meanest looking apperance have always been a drive for me in games, and always looked up to people that have it, congratulating them for having an awsome apperance. I often hear things like "transmogs/apperance is the real endgame"
and to say cosmetics have no role in winning is so wrong imo.
You'r really telling me that there is not a market for visual contest? Asmongolds transmog competitions for a fun example.
For discussion: Are visuals a part of winning in your opinion? If not, what is?
It's easier do define in games like lets say counter strike. Your winning if you win competetive matches and if there is anything you can buy for money that gives you an advantage over people that did not buy the said advantage it's PTW.
Mmorpgs are different. Winning can be so much more.
You hear it all the time from devs, "in this mmo you can do anything and become anyone", crafting, gathering, dungeons/raids, pvp and so much more. You can be the best player and "win" in any of those proffesions/occupations. But there is another way of winning in an mmo. You know what that is? Becoming the best looking.
Achieving the meanest looking apperance have always been a drive for me in games, and always looked up to people that have it, congratulating them for having an awsome apperance. I often hear things like "transmogs/apperance is the real endgame"
and to say cosmetics have no role in winning is so wrong imo.You'r really telling me that there is not a market for visual contest? Asmongolds transmog competitions for a fun example.
For discussion: Are visuals a part of winning in your opinion? If not, what is?
1
Comments
Typical 2021. People claiming that their personal definition of things should be above facts.
If you want a meaningful discussion take out the words "win" and let's talk about how people are spoiled and they want to look good without putting the time to achieve visual progression.
WoW has in-game purchasable cosmetics as well, it's why Asmon doesn't allow people to use Blizzcon items or Swift Spectral Tiger etc. because those are paid for with real money. If you want to have those transmog competitions in Ashes, just exclude paid cosmetics, it's that easy.
That is not winning
P2W style can never give you what effort, dedication gives you in an true MMO, your own respect as an MMO player.
Btw, If you think AoC has or will have some P2W (whatever you consider P2W), you should first ask Steven about a certain bear, after you find out the answer you will realize that AoC is being built solidly with foundations and respecting itself, that is why it is against all P2W.
And that is why he takes issue with shop cosmetics, which I also dont like, but I wouldnt use a clickbait, spreading misinformation, in order to start a conversation.
Equipping a cosmetic does not increase your damage, heal you, give you +20 gold per kill, or make you jump 1% farther.
They just look different and what you think looks like the coolest set in the world might make someone else recoil in disgust.
This being the case I don't mind a cosmetic shop in the least.
I also feel that, more than likely, I'll end up using it.
I agree with those who stated the OPs title was click-bait.
IMO:
No, visuals are not a part of winning. Consider other online competitive games(Ashes is competitive, I assure you.). Mobas, FPS, Battle Royale, and the like. These games all have cosmetic skins.
What those cosmetics skins can't do for you is make you win more matches or get into ranked content. The same can be said for Ashes. Cosmetic skins are not going to get you into a good guild or raid group. Cosmetics are not going to make you succeed in a node or castle siege. Cosmetics will not make you more economically successful or increase your stats. You will still only play at whatever skill level you personally can preform at as a human. Cosmetics will only make you visually look different while you play the game.
Winning and losing is in your hands, not your cosmetics, not your wallet.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Encouraging an active and engaging discussion is way different than using a baited thread topic and answering a 2+ year forum member's response with enigmatic questions.
Anyone can Google the definition of "pay-to-win" and know it doesn't apply to cosmetic appearance.
I believe the outcome of this discussion should be the following:
P2W is subjective - it shouldn't be, but it is anyway.
Let me give you some examples:
In my opinion, most of the above are P2W but some are acceptable and some aren't.
If I could play a new MMORPG in 2021 with no Cash Shop, I would. Sadly that game doesn't exist, therefore I chose to accept Ashes' Cash Shop and play the game until I decide its Cash Shop is no longer acceptable.
Intrepid decided what their Cash Shop will sell and that will (hopefully) never change. If you think cosmetics are P2W because visual progression is something very important to you I would say you're not 100% wrong and that you're entitled to think that, but unfortunately that won't make Intrepid refund all the thousands of skins sold in the past few years.
The days of "Classic WoW levels of visual progression" are probably gone, which is unfortunate. OSRS still has some of that, but I've wasted enough of my life playing that. Maybe the good old days of MMORPGs without Cash Shops will come back one day, but it won't be with Ashes.
In any case, I do believe Steven when he says in-game items will look just as good, if not better, than skins.
Cheers
Fucking
Christ...
it is a troll, isnt it?
That all said, cosmetic gear does not give you stat bonuses. There are games out right now that let you charge a credit card for an increase in power level. GW2 lets you buy straight up gold with the paid for gems, Elyon sells an item that increases your max damage permanently and can be increased through more purchasing, Black Desert and many many other games sell items that increase XP gains allowing you to reach higher levels faster than others. That is what pay to win is, a definitive advantage over others through purchasing in game items with real cash. Cosmetics may give social advantages, but as I said before it could also give you disadvantages.
I feel ya. I think that every time myself.
Sadly, it is frowned upon to accuse OP of trolling around here unless it is extremely overt. The best you can do with these posts is try to make a good counterpoint.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
There is a grey area however with store bought cosmetic only items giving a competitive advantage.
That is when the cosmetic has an attributed effect or animation that masks/manipulates/alters an in game mechanic visually or audibly and by doing so can effect competitive outcomes.
Ive seen it it happen in team based shooter games and at a high tier of competitive play any advantage is still an advantage.
The example of winning is raiding your caravan and looting your corpse. Looks are superficial and subjective.
While I agree with your point wholeheartedly, cosmetic skins can be a double-edged sword. I have seen skins in "Smite" for example make the character way easier to hit. I don't play many other shooters or MOBAs, but I can bet that is the case for other like games.
Nothing like someone walking around with a skin that glows like the sun in a game where aim is important.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
TFT and Fornite are P2W ?? I do not think so.
the TFT with yasuo's sand appearance,
you won the draws against people, no, I didn't have it
I gained a couple of seconds on the run.
Fornite with a gesture you gained a movement to dodge
Ashes hide your gear or true mount form with a look
they can give you a slight advantage in combat
You just listed some examples of store bought advantages that do not cohere to the Stat only conception of P2W.
If you don't consider these advantages as advantages then what are they?
A competitive edge no?
But because they are "just cosmetics" it's fine right?
Often overlooked because for the most part people who buy cosmetics aren't really that competitive to care.
However it is possible to convert/exchange game gold currency into cash shop gem currency in GW2 so it's not really a P2W situation.
Have to remember its a strictly real world monetary to in game item purchase that establishes a p2w transaction.
I agree with you cosmetics are a gray area that can be used to have a slight advantage
It will depend on how these types of cosmetics are
Will hiding a mount or gear form be an advantage?
Let's imagine a group of 8 that are dressed the same, their role will not be hidden and it is more difficult to end their healer ??
There will most likely still be an easy way to determine the healer. Even if not people could coordinate their builds to visually look the same without use of cosmetics. The problem with cosmetics in a competitive situation is determining strength of a character. In the alpha you could easily gauge how geared someone is just by looking at their armor set. If a skin is applied over it, there's no way to tell whether they are running around in starter gear or full set of epic. There's a slight advantage over someone who didn't pay for a skin as the person with no skin is showing off their gear while the person with a skin has concealed what they have.
if you consider visuals to be winning, yet you prefer a realistic aesthetic, what progression do you have past the first few levels of most games?
id you consider visuals to be winning, and the game produces a look that is absolutely perfect for you, have you then won that game forever?
What if a game never produces a look that is what you want? is it then impossible for you to win that game?
"Winning" in an MMO means one of three things to me. Either you are killing the hardest encounters in the game, you are killing the most players in the game, or you are making the most money in the game.
The thing to keep in mind in regards to all of the discussions about cosmetics being pay to win (by concealing gear/mounts/whatever), is that not all cosmetics are bought. The game will have cosmetics that you can earn in game, meaning you can hide your gear/mounts/whatever without purchasing anything, meaning that even if there were an advantage to have in this regard, it is not pay to win as you do not need to pay to get that advantage.
(though I'm thoroughly entertained hahahaha)
And I hear you guys. I can agree that there is not an implementation or feature in the game directly that gives people with an awsome apperance a hands on advantage, like rank, gold, items or whatever. But mmos are a highly social ganre where it's the people that makes the game, by the people for the people.
But your saying that it's the developers that makes the rules of what is winning and what is not? Sure, but then can you say that any P2W games exist, if there isn't any developers that have stated that our game is P2W?
It might have been a stupid question about exactly what winning is, and very few people here have taken their time to actually answer my question, thanks to you that have though, you know who you are
@Uncommon Sense definitely an interesting point that i have not thought about
@George Black climb down from your high horse, stop asuming things and answer the question