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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
There might be a few players that choose to completely ignore information given to them at the beginning and then get pissed enough to leave once they find out their choice to ignore it have consequences. I don't want those people in my life, nor in my game, so them leaving is a win/win for me.
These are people who cannot be relied upon for anything, and certainly not dungeons/raids/pvp or anything else that requires a minimum amount of preparation and commitment in a game. Good riddance.
"We don't think that Intrepid can live up to what they said about augments actually being that effective or meaningful in terms of what they change, so there's too small a chance that the situation you're describing will happen."
@Kesthely it sounds like you're wasting your time in this particular vein of responses, because the people you're talking to don't have the same base premises as you, at all.
This is another situation where it's gonna be up to Intrepid to clarify whether or not the attitudes expressed here are the ones they are in line with, so that you'd know whether or not to engage on the topic. If you're not around, I'll probably ask it in the next Q&A for you, if it helps.
As for generality of other posters.
"I find your lack of empathy disturbing... but ultimately unsurprising."
Besides I doubt that a player won't learn from others or from YouTube videos or from the ingame mechanics about the second archetype at level 25. Even the most casual player will have learned about this by level 20.
On the contrary, its actually valuable time spend. Each reply allows me to give counter arguments, and raise concerns or explain it in a different light. The topic itself will have more posts so it will have a higher chance to be noted by community managers / developers
@Everyone else don't get me wrong i like the concept of secondary classes and augments. but i think you are underestimating the sever impacts it could have. If your satified with secondary classes just being a reskin of the standard abilities, then so be it, I for one have higher expectations of the augment system.
We’ll have to let it play out during Beta testing, @Kesthely.
Intrepid has already said they’re not creating 64 unique classes. On the other hand, the evidence so far points to something a bit more than “a reskin of standard abilities”.
Either way, there isn’t going to be a new player exodus from being “unaware” or “unprepared” for their secondary archetype (augment) selection.
To me, this seems like a summoner with a death motif.
Saying Ashes should not introduce a major mechanic to players half way through the initial leveling process
is to not understand MMO design at all.
Yea, I know MMORPGs are not ARPGs and they are very different games. PoE for example has builds that you realize around level 70-80 and require comparatively the same grind to an MMO to be able to acquire certain items or skill points that make your build work.
Furthermore, I think that throwing everything at the player all at once may be overwhelming for the more casual players and turn them off because of the perceived complexity.
In Lineage 2 you got your second class upgrade after level 45, which is already 3+ weeks of game time if you play all day. Then you do super fucked up quests that take you another week. Then you need to level up to get points to spend on the extra new skills or upgrades.
Your primary archetype is set in stone, that is essentially the playstyle you chose. You'll have time to level up and understand those abilities as vertical progression can be seen as one long drawn out training tutorial. If those abilities had 4-5 different variations of them it's not that complicated. Think about diablo 3. You unlocked abilities and they had different runes you could augment the abilities with based on your playstyle. Many RPG's do this regardless of being an MMO or not. Even horizontal progression games have some abilities gated through progression/tiers. Augmentations are augmentations, they change the base ability relatively.
A fighter/cleric will be different than a cleric/fighter because the primary archetypes foundational abilities will be the core of the classes mechanics for augmentations. The secondary archetype opens up possibilities for additional augmentation options based on which secondary archetype you choose etc. It's all based on sources. If they gave augments at level 1 or 25, it wouldn't matter to me but since it's vertical progression, there is more training and story behind the process of leveling up.
Look at it this way, from what i understand most archtypes will have at least 4 different types of augments for their skills, so you hit lvl 25 and now suddenly you have 8*4*the number of active skills as altered abilities to think over. Lets say you have a build with 5 abilities, then your already talking 160 different altered abilities. combined with a new system you've never used before. This is a sure way to induce choice overload
Augment one could add a magic effect to it
Augment two could add a physical effect to it
Augment three could add a debuff to the target (could be a dot or proc precursor for synergy)
Augment four could be CC orientated
Augment five could be a double of the first four but different type?
Maybe they'll do a bane and boon version of it where it gives something beneficial at the cost of something else?
First of all, nobody really knows how much the secondary archetype will influence the first archetype. Everybody has their own idea of how it's going to work, but I disagree with your understanding. I understand your concerns and don't think you're completely wrong, but your solutions to problems that don't exist yet and might not exist are unrealistic with the information we have today. I could be wrong and your concerns might turn out to be real, but having followed the game for a few years I would like to believe I'm not completely wrong about this.
You also need to understand what a class means in Ashes. I believe you know the difference and it's mainly a nomenclature issue, but I think it's important so that everybody is talking about the same things. A class is the combination of the primary archetype and secondary archetype.
From my understanding, the primary archetype is what's going to define your character and the secondary archetype will "only" enhance your primary's skills.
Steven often gives the example of a charge skill from the Tank turning into a charge with an instant blink if you choose Spellshield as your class (Tank + Mage). With that example, we may conclude that every skill from the primary archetype will usually keep the same concept, but it will be enhanced by the secondary archetype you chose, therefore resulting in your class skills. I can't say for sure it's gonna work like that, I don't think anyone can, again that's my understanding.
If my premise is true, then your chosen primary archetype will always have the same X number of skills. When you choose your secondary archetype, then the same X skills will now be "enhanceable", but ultimately they won't become new skills. Instead of a "Charge" you'll now have a "Instant Charge" or a "Poisoning Charge" or a "Shadow Charge" or a "Shield Charge", etc.
I believe it's also important to note that you will probably not be able to enhance every skill from your primary archetype: you'll have to choose which skills to augment because you won't have infinite "skill points" to be used. You'll probably have to choose between leveling up your primary archetype skills or enhancing them. Again, nobody knows how it will work, it's just how I imagine it'll work.
I didn't see anyone mention something very important to help ease your concerns: AFAIK you will be able to change your secondary archetype, i.e. your class, at a cost. You'll also be able to reset your skill points at a cost. The only thing you cannot change is your primary archetype.
One thing I do agree with you is the concern players might have regarding what their class (primary + secondary) skills will look like, since they'll only be able to choose their class and start augmenting their skills at level 25. I expect Ashes' Skills UI to show every primary skill AND, in a different tab or whatever, show how each skill can be augmented, textually or visually, depending on the secondary archetype choice. That will let you plan ahead which class you're going to choose, because you'll have an understanding of how your primary archetype's skills will potentially change before choosing your class.
I'm all for requesting changes based on sound reasoning, not examples showcasing ignorant choices.
You didn't make a point out my no 4, namely the whole the thing rests on a false statement...
Are you also a person who believes that:
1) Adding Summoner to Ranger will not result in meaningful changes to the player's ability mechanics
2) Adding Fighter to Cleric will not result in meaningful changes to the player's ability mechanics
Because if so, I can see how you consider it a false statement and I have nothing further to engage on.
Here's a better question for you.
You are suggesting developers shouldn't be introducing players to major new mechanics half way through the leveling process, which is exactly where most players would expect to learn about mechanics of the game.
So, are you suggesting that the developers should introduce these mechanics at level 1, and just throw everything at the player right at the start?
Perhaps you would rather wait until the level cap?
Or are you suggesting not even having these mechanics at all?
Half way through the leveling process is literally the perfect time to introduce players to mechanics like this. The notion of "but it alters how the character is played" is a load of total shit, because it iw a players decision.
Using your example, if a player is playing a ranger and they like how it plays, when they get to level 25 they aren't going to pick summoner - they would pick ranger again.
In order for your point to be even remotely valid, there would need to be randomization in what secondary class people get, rather than a choice.
The other thing that would need to happen is the secondary class choice would need to come as a surprise to the player, which I would opine would happen to less than 1% of the player base.
Almost all players are going to look at the classes available, and pick a primary class based on what they want to eventually play.
The entire concept of this not being an appropriate time to introduce secondary classes to players makes no sense at all.
OP claims that 2nd archetype will "change the fundamental game mechanic" for the player. It will not.
Examples from Devs have been on this line: Warrior Charge changes from a running charge to a teleport. 'Fundamental change'? No. Same mechanic (distance closer), same reqs (likely distance to target), same outcome. Different animation and/or casting/channeling time are the differences here. Hardly 'fundamental'.
Might as well sell Green and Red hats and call them 'fundamentally different'.
The sky is not falling, no matter how many rocks are thrown into the air. The system ISN'T EVEN TESTABLE yet, why the drama? How can the bread be burnt before it even goes in the oven, eh?
In my experiance they don't. They like building up on the systems, getting more skills more talent points etc, new mechanics are similar to getting the azunite system or the legion legendary weapon (both from World of warcraft) Thus i advocate to already have a limited form of augmenting from the start so it builds up on that with the secondary classes, instead of becomming a new mechanic
having 2 passives, 2 actives, 2 weaponskills and 1 or2 augments isn't trowing everything at them. as far as i've seen you start with 3 skill points and gain 1 skill point per level. so at 25 you would have 28 skill points to spend. if you devide that by 2 for a balanced active and passive build, you have 14 points in active abilites, enough to max out 4 abilities and have 1 at 2 points. Now if each class has 4 augments, at that point you are looking at 5*8*4 or 160 potential variations for your abilties to choose from. for me thats a concerning amount of things to consider
I do know, my concern is not that you can change your secondary archtype or change the augments, but that the playstyles you can create because of the augments is so different you might have wanted to pick a different PRIMARY archtype (Something you CAN'T change)
I'll clarify it for you how fundamentally different it is. Your participating on a castle siege. You stand on a wall shooting down. Fighter A comes towards the wall and is a Fighter/Fighter. He has to go trough the chokepoint , then up a stairs, and can only then charge you due to charge range / line of sight limitations.
Fighter B is a Fighter/Mage with Teleportation on his charge. He runs up to the wall, and teleports in your face, he bypasses the chokepoint or the stairs and is their instantly before you can even slow or crowdcontrol or damage him. And this is a funamentally different playstyle.
Maybe the augments don't change it that much, so 25 would be fine.
Maybe they can change up a class a lot, so we should ask to see it earlier in our characters.
Personal opinion. Most people who've read my posts know I hope augments can shift a class a lot, for bigger effects on their playstyle. With that in mind I would hope it be earlier in my leveling, maybe around lvl 15?
There are other good reasons for this too, and why I would also request that it was at 15 if the changes are meaningful.
Level 15 is relatively easy to reach on an alt 'just to check'. It's also the point where you probably haven't randomly found any gear that seriously starts to shift the balance of it.
If a gearpiece enhances a Templar's DPS ability more than it enhances a Highsword's DPS ability...
I disagree, now is the best time to worry / ask questions about it. because now the game is still at the stage that changes to the system are a lot less work then waiting till the "balancing" phase.
If the changes due to augments are minor, then it ultimatly doesn't matter at wich level we get them, but if they are as intresting as i hope they are, then it will be one of the most important aspects of the game.
My understanding of WoW is that you start getting talent point at level 10.
So, they are introducing new systems to players during the leveling process in that game as well, just as you are complaining about here.
I'm sure you'll say there is a big difference between level 10 in WoW and level 25 in Ashes. This is true, there are. However, there is almost nothing at all that WoW needs to teach new players because the game is as bland as they come.
In Ashes, you need to first of all learn about the node, PvP and caravan systems. These are likely what we will spend the first 20 or so levels doing, and each of them is more important than secondary classes and augments.
Then, when people understand those systems (or when they should understand them), it is time to introduce a new system.
If Intrepid were to move teaching about augments to level 10 instead of level 25, do you propose they teach about the node, PvP and caravan systems in that first 10 levels, leaving players with no real time to let the information sink in, teach about them after augments and such, leaving players exposed to people that already understand these systems, or teach them all at the same time so players have no idea what is going on at all?
Because, believe it or not, the point at which you introduce a mechanic to players is not decided in a vacuum. You need to consider the pace at which new information is given to players, and you need to prioritize that information and order it in a way that makes sense to players.
When it comes to prioritizing information to players in Ashes, nodes come first. This is not uo for debate.
After that, ensuring players have a good understanding of the PvP system is critical. This won't take long, but this is good - teaching an easy, fast concept after teaching a more complex concept (nodes, in this case) makes it easier for both to sink in.
Caravans may well be introduced after level 25, but honestly, I could see it taking 20 levels to teach the basics of gameplay and nodes.
Oh okay, well sure that's possible but we can't accurately debate it at this point because we haven't seen the secondary augment system yet or even how long it takes to get to level 25. Another possibility is that the method of changing your secondary archetype will be a huge pain.
I'd bear in mind though, as an example: if you pick Mage and then hate your initial pick of Bard as your second archetype then you have 7 more to choose from. That includes doubling down on Mage for your second archetype as well. Presumably between all 8 options your character will still feel like a Mage on several of them.
I don't doubt there will be a lot of players who want to experiment with different archetype combinations but I think it's fine to have character rerolling be a significant time commitment. Pretty much every other game with classes works that way--you don't get the full feel of the class until later in the leveling process.
Ok, what I'm saying is we should wait until we know something before asking them to change something.
Right now we know very little about the scale of augments.
While this is valid, there's a sorta Pascal's Wager going on here.
Since we don't know, it could be either big changes or small. If someone was only interested in this game under the condition that the changes were large, then they would want to give feedback in that direction early, because what's the point of doing anything else?
There's no need to wait and see, for that sort of person, because they don't intend to play the game if the augments are just random small changes. We've already seen multiple such threads on these forums.
Intrepid still hasn't provided certain pieces of information about how specific things will work, but the same way there are some people who won't play the game if the open world PvP gets diluted, there are many who won't play if the class identities are diluted. So they don't really need the information, their position is 'If this is the path you choose I no longer care so you never needed my feedback'.
And therefore they give feedback because 'the only Ashes they can see that they care about, is the one in which the problem exists', and they want to address it early (making no claims about what @Kesthely actually feels here, but you've seen enough other posters and threads on the matter to know what I mean)