Controversial: Augmentation might be a bad idea if set to 25 and later

First of all let me asure you that i personally think that augments are a nice idea. However, i fear for its design implementation if not done properly

What we currently know is that at lvl 25 you get to choose your secondary archtype, and then can augment your primary skills. While this sounds great at first glance their isa major drawback of this system: It changes the fundamental game mechanic of the game after dozens of hours or more of gameplay.

A game is designed around a certain concept. Ashes is designed around archtypes and augmenting the primary archtype with a secondary class, or racial / faith or other rare augments. And while that design is interesting, and comprehensive for those who have been following the game, its not comprehensive for the starting new player.

Most MMO's have a leveling curve that slows down the leveling experience as you level up. They unlock more abilities as you grow stronger. And everyone interesting in playing an mmo knows this. However Ashes is going to be one of the, (or to my knowledge the only) few exceptions to this. At mid level the entire class design, up till that point changes. No longer are you a tank, but your a Tank Fighter, or a Tank Tank, and unlock the Augment system. And this is where the augment system might fail enormously.

Switching a design philosophy at mid tier might result in a lot of player drop off at that point.

Example:
You love playing elves, and you want to be a bad ass fighter with a bow. But up until level 25 you cannot augment your skills to be workable with a bow. While you enjoy your fighter, something is missing so at lvl 20you reroll ranger. You've spend about 20 hours into the game, and being an average player this has taken you between one or 2 weeks of real time. You've rerolled Ranger, again an elf, and you are enjoying your archery lifestyle. your slightly faster in leveling this time and just before your monthly subscription is up you reach high enough level to gain access to your secondary archtype. You enjoy augmenting your skills but then realize something that basically made you abandon your first character. after lvl 25 you could finally augment your skills with skills appropriate to how you actually wanted to play. Upset you decide not to resub scribe for next month. because the "stupid game should have let you do it from the get go"

And this is where i think that Ashes augment system might fall short. It starts for the average player a week or 2 after creating your class, and fundamentally changes it. Your class becomes a total new class (literally) with new options and playstyles. And while this is in one way good, its also bad in a way. The average gamer decides in the first 2 hours if they like a game or not. Not after 20 or 40 hours of playing. The average gamer also tries out different classes, to get a feel of the playstyle. They don't appreciate that you can completely change a playstyle only after 20 + hours.

So what can Ashes do to prevent this?
There are numerous ways.
Allow players to immediately augment their skills, so they understand the interface and that your secondary archtype will gratly enhance this later on. Each player should have racial augments that affect their skills from th start. Maybe the race has 1 or 2 favorite weapons and can alter the skills to be used trough those weapons, or a favorite damage type and can augment to that damage type.. In short, let the '"new player experience|" EXPERIANCE augments and let them create elven fighters with bows from level 1, instead of having to wait till 25 and force it to Fighter / ranger archtype.

After much discussions i've included a list of what different people want augments to be able to do:
Augments should:
Retain the primary archetypes role
Offer a way to change playstyle while retaining the role
Might lead to having to use different gear
Some want augments to have major effects
Some want augments to have minor effects

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Comments

SunScript

Jahlon wrote: »

From reading your entire OP, you clearly don't have any clue as to how Ashes of Creation is going to function. I would highly suggest hitting up the wiki and/or https://ashes101.com/combat#overview in order to learn how the game is actually designed. 95% of your concerns aren't valid because they don't even exist in what Intrepid is planning.

And this is how you decided to troll people into reading your website? No tantalizing crumbs, no actual argument, just tearing people down? Big oof.

Enigmatic Sage

I wouldn't overthink the combat system from what they have jotted down. Many RPG's have progression and augmentations to abilities whether it be specialisations or individual ability choices. There's a good chance it's nothing spectacular, new or innovative.

You level up, you get abilities, you specialise, you get abilities, you augment those abilities based on different sources.

Dolyem

Honestly my guess for introducing secondary archetypes and their augments at level 25 is to prevent an early power creep from snowballing too fast. And as for it taking players by surprise, that's pretty silly to think they wont cover that in a tutorial or even during class selection/character creation.

Gizban

Kesthely wrote: »

First of all let me asure you that i personally think that augments are a nice idea. However, i fear for its design implementation if not done properly

What we currently know is that at lvl 25 you get to choose your secondary archtype, and then can augment your primary skills. While this sounds great at first glance their isa major drawback of this system: It changes the fundamental game mechanic of the game after dozens of hours or more of gameplay.

A game is designed around a certain concept. Ashes is designed around archtypes and augmenting the primary archtype with a secondary class, or racial / faith or other rare augments. And while that design is interesting, and comprehensive for those who have been following the game, its not comprehensive for the starting new player.

Most MMO's have a leveling curve that slows down the leveling experience as you level up. They unlock more abilities as you grow stronger. And everyone interesting in playing an mmo knows this. However Ashes is going to be one of the, (or to my knowledge the only) few exceptions to this. At mid level the entire class design, up till that point changes. No longer are you a tank, but your a Tank Fighter, or a Tank Tank, and unlock the Augment system. And this is where the augment system might fail enormously.

Switching a design philosophy at mid tier might result in a lot of player drop off at that point.

Example:
You love playing elves, and you want to be a bad ass fighter with a bow. But up until level 25 you cannot augment your skills to be workable with a bow. While you enjoy your fighter, something is missing so at lvl 20you reroll ranger. You've spend about 20 hours into the game, and being an average player this has taken you between one or 2 weeks of real time. You've rerolled Ranger, again an elf, and you are enjoying your archery lifestyle. your slightly faster in leveling this time and just before your monthly subscription is up you reach high enough level to gain access to your secondary archtype. You enjoy augmenting your skills but then realize something that basically made you abandon your first character. after lvl 25 you could finally augment your skills with skills appropriate to how you actually wanted to play. Upset you decide not to resub scribe for next month. because the "stupid game should have let you do it from the get go"

And this is where i think that Ashes augment system might fall short. It starts for the average player a week or 2 after creating your class, and fundamentally changes it. Your class becomes a total new class (literally) with new options and playstyles. And while this is in one way good, its also bad in a way. The average gamer decides in the first 2 hours if they like a game or not. Not after 20 or 40 hours of playing. The average gamer also tries out different classes, to get a feel of the playstyle. They don't appreciate that you can completely change a playstyle only after 20 + hours.

So what can Ashes do to prevent this?
There are numerous ways.
Allow players to immediately augment their skills, so they understand the interface and that your secondary archtype will gratly enhance this later on. Each player should have racial augments that affect their skills from th start. Maybe the race has 1 or 2 favorite weapons and can alter the skills to be used trough those weapons, or a favorite damage type and can augment to that damage type.. In short, let the '"new player experience|" EXPERIANCE augments and let them create elven fighters with bows from level 1, instead of having to wait till 25 and force it to Fighter / ranger archtype.

With respect, I find your example far fetched or simply showing the course of action of a twit.

1: If you want to play a bow-centric character, a Ranger should have been your first choice.
2: Choosing a tank and then whining you can't heal is Snowflakism. Mix and match here.
3: If not resubbing for this reason, which is the players fault for lacking common sense... well, bye. Quiters quit.
4: This whole post rests on the premise that the 2nd archetype is going to "CHANGE THE FUNDAMENTAL GAME MECHANIC OF THE GAME".... /whipsers but its not!

Azherae

pyreal wrote: »

Kesthely wrote: »

First of all let me asure you that i personally think that augments are a nice idea. However, i fear for its design implementation if not done properly

What we currently know is that at lvl 25 you get to choose your secondary archtype, and then can augment your primary skills. While this sounds great at first glance their isa major drawback of this system: It changes the fundamental game mechanic of the game after dozens of hours or more of gameplay.

A game is designed around a certain concept. Ashes is designed around archtypes and augmenting the primary archtype with a secondary class, or racial / faith or other rare augments. And while that design is interesting, and comprehensive for those who have been following the game, its not comprehensive for the starting new player.

Most MMO's have a leveling curve that slows down the leveling experience as you level up. They unlock more abilities as you grow stronger. And everyone interesting in playing an mmo knows this. However Ashes is going to be one of the, (or to my knowledge the only) few exceptions to this. At mid level the entire class design, up till that point changes. No longer are you a tank, but your a Tank Fighter, or a Tank Tank, and unlock the Augment system. And this is where the augment system might fail enormously.

Switching a design philosophy at mid tier might result in a lot of player drop off at that point.

Example:
You love playing elves, and you want to be a bad ass fighter with a bow. But up until level 25 you cannot augment your skills to be workable with a bow. While you enjoy your fighter, something is missing so at lvl 20you reroll ranger. You've spend about 20 hours into the game, and being an average player this has taken you between one or 2 weeks of real time. You've rerolled Ranger, again an elf, and you are enjoying your archery lifestyle. your slightly faster in leveling this time and just before your monthly subscription is up you reach high enough level to gain access to your secondary archtype. You enjoy augmenting your skills but then realize something that basically made you abandon your first character. after lvl 25 you could finally augment your skills with skills appropriate to how you actually wanted to play. Upset you decide not to resub scribe for next month. because the "stupid game should have let you do it from the get go"

And this is where i think that Ashes augment system might fall short. It starts for the average player a week or 2 after creating your class, and fundamentally changes it. Your class becomes a total new class (literally) with new options and playstyles. And while this is in one way good, its also bad in a way. The average gamer decides in the first 2 hours if they like a game or not. Not after 20 or 40 hours of playing. The average gamer also tries out different classes, to get a feel of the playstyle. They don't appreciate that you can completely change a playstyle only after 20 + hours.

So what can Ashes do to prevent this?
There are numerous ways.
Allow players to immediately augment their skills, so they understand the interface and that your secondary archtype will gratly enhance this later on. Each player should have racial augments that affect their skills from th start. Maybe the race has 1 or 2 favorite weapons and can alter the skills to be used trough those weapons, or a favorite damage type and can augment to that damage type.. In short, let the '"new player experience|" EXPERIANCE augments and let them create elven fighters with bows from level 1, instead of having to wait till 25 and force it to Fighter / ranger archtype.

With respect, I find your example far fetched or simply showing the course of action of a twit.

1: If you want to play a bow-centric character, a Ranger should have been your first choice.
2: Choosing a tank and then whining you can't heal is Snowflakism. Mix and match here.
3: If not resubbing for this reason, which is the players fault for lacking common sense... well, bye. Quiters quit.
4: This whole post rests on the premise that the 2nd archetype is going to "CHANGE THE FUNDAMENTAL GAME MECHANIC OF THE GAME".... /whipsers but its not!

So lemme see if I get this...

You're basically calling anyone who chooses an Archetype based on that list that we've had multiple threads about, and then the gameplay doesn't suit their style, a twit?

Including all the Predators, Scouts, Necromancers, Falconers, etc?

Why is this community like this?

"Y'all are stupid, Intrepid should never change anything for you, gtfo with your (insert request for change here)."

Even when nothing of value is being protected, even when the stuff people are poking about is stuff that Intrepid either explicitly said is possible (meaningful changes to Skills via Secondary for example) or would barely affect anything negatively...

Seriously, why?

Noaani

Azherae wrote: »

pyreal wrote: »

Kesthely wrote: »

First of all let me asure you that i personally think that augments are a nice idea. However, i fear for its design implementation if not done properly

What we currently know is that at lvl 25 you get to choose your secondary archtype, and then can augment your primary skills. While this sounds great at first glance their isa major drawback of this system: It changes the fundamental game mechanic of the game after dozens of hours or more of gameplay.

A game is designed around a certain concept. Ashes is designed around archtypes and augmenting the primary archtype with a secondary class, or racial / faith or other rare augments. And while that design is interesting, and comprehensive for those who have been following the game, its not comprehensive for the starting new player.

Most MMO's have a leveling curve that slows down the leveling experience as you level up. They unlock more abilities as you grow stronger. And everyone interesting in playing an mmo knows this. However Ashes is going to be one of the, (or to my knowledge the only) few exceptions to this. At mid level the entire class design, up till that point changes. No longer are you a tank, but your a Tank Fighter, or a Tank Tank, and unlock the Augment system. And this is where the augment system might fail enormously.

Switching a design philosophy at mid tier might result in a lot of player drop off at that point.

Example:
You love playing elves, and you want to be a bad ass fighter with a bow. But up until level 25 you cannot augment your skills to be workable with a bow. While you enjoy your fighter, something is missing so at lvl 20you reroll ranger. You've spend about 20 hours into the game, and being an average player this has taken you between one or 2 weeks of real time. You've rerolled Ranger, again an elf, and you are enjoying your archery lifestyle. your slightly faster in leveling this time and just before your monthly subscription is up you reach high enough level to gain access to your secondary archtype. You enjoy augmenting your skills but then realize something that basically made you abandon your first character. after lvl 25 you could finally augment your skills with skills appropriate to how you actually wanted to play. Upset you decide not to resub scribe for next month. because the "stupid game should have let you do it from the get go"

And this is where i think that Ashes augment system might fall short. It starts for the average player a week or 2 after creating your class, and fundamentally changes it. Your class becomes a total new class (literally) with new options and playstyles. And while this is in one way good, its also bad in a way. The average gamer decides in the first 2 hours if they like a game or not. Not after 20 or 40 hours of playing. The average gamer also tries out different classes, to get a feel of the playstyle. They don't appreciate that you can completely change a playstyle only after 20 + hours.

So what can Ashes do to prevent this?
There are numerous ways.
Allow players to immediately augment their skills, so they understand the interface and that your secondary archtype will gratly enhance this later on. Each player should have racial augments that affect their skills from th start. Maybe the race has 1 or 2 favorite weapons and can alter the skills to be used trough those weapons, or a favorite damage type and can augment to that damage type.. In short, let the '"new player experience|" EXPERIANCE augments and let them create elven fighters with bows from level 1, instead of having to wait till 25 and force it to Fighter / ranger archtype.

With respect, I find your example far fetched or simply showing the course of action of a twit.

1: If you want to play a bow-centric character, a Ranger should have been your first choice.
2: Choosing a tank and then whining you can't heal is Snowflakism. Mix and match here.
3: If not resubbing for this reason, which is the players fault for lacking common sense... well, bye. Quiters quit.
4: This whole post rests on the premise that the 2nd archetype is going to "CHANGE THE FUNDAMENTAL GAME MECHANIC OF THE GAME".... /whipsers but its not!

So lemme see if I get this...

You're basically calling anyone who chooses an Archetype based on that list that we've had multiple threads about, and then the gameplay doesn't suit their style, a twit?

Including all the Predators, Scouts, Necromancers, Falconers, etc?

Why is this community like this?

"Y'all are stupid, Intrepid should never change anything for you, gtfo with your (insert request for change here)."

Even when nothing of value is being protected, even when the stuff people are poking about is stuff that Intrepid either explicitly said is possible (meaningful changes to Skills via Secondary for example) or would barely affect anything negatively...

Seriously, why?

If someone comes to Ashes expecting to play a Necromancer, rather than playing a Summoner with a death motif, then yeah, they are going to leave the game fairly soon.

The issue there isn't with the class/subclass system, it is with the names of classes.

Kesthely

Noaani wrote: »

If someone comes to Ashes expecting to play a Necromancer, rather than playing a Summoner with a death motif, then yeah, they are going to leave the game fairly soon.

The issue there isn't with the class/subclass system, it is with the names of classes.

I disagree.

Necromancer: Summoner / Cleric What we know about secondary archtypes is that they augment the base abilities of summoners. I imagine that next to the usual summoning spells, summoners will have buff spells and even direct damage spells. When you put a cleric augment on those what could happen is that the visual changes from the regular graphics to a darker bolt. And the augment itself, restores life for you just like some of the cleric spells already do. The summoning might also change the summoning to an undead creature. Infact Intrepid already said you can. The buffs spells you'd have could link the summoning to you making a lifelink, so you can heal your summon, and then with above mentioned leeching attack, resotre your own hp again. all based on the standard summoner with a few augments This will play and feel like a necromancer, although ones definition of necromancer might vary

Wild Blade: Summoner / Fighter In Alpha 1 we've already seen enchanted armor fighting. The wild blade might have a similar thing where its summons are now armor (Tank summon) Greatsword (dps summon) or Staff (support summon) and they summon armors and weapons. the standard attack skill that's augmented to drain life for necromancers, could be augmented with a weapon type,, so it now looks like a weapon is thrown, or fighting on its own, or look like a fighter attack. The buff spells change into magical enchantments for its floating weapons, and you become a summoner with a melee or ranged weapon assisted by all kinds of weapons / armors.

One plays as a magical spellcaster behind a strong undead (or perhaps even multiple undead) having drain attacks and a dark vibe, the other might look valorous and augments martial attacks with floating weapons and change its other skills to resemble weapon attacks etc. The abilities will have the same range, the same origin skill, but differ slightly. The cleric skill does slightly less damage but heals, the figher one changes its damage to physical and does slightly more damage. Its role is preserved, you summon creatures to assist yourself or your party and raid, but the execution of it is completely different. Its playstyles will feel completely different, and since one summoner is then magical based and the other is physical based even the gear required is completely different.

To expect that people understand how this system will work and see its options without a proper introduction is naive. And to place it behind a 20+ hour timeframe is bad game design.

If a games mentality is "it gets better after 20 hours, or 50 hours or 100 hours" you should ask yourself, why is it that the developers need to do that. Do they think i'm to stupid to understand their system? do they think my first 20 hours of gameplay is irrelevant? Do they feel to force you trough an incomplete itteration of the game, or do they just not care about my time, and use artificial systems to try to make me play longer?
If i would make a game, and you' would make a mage, would you be content if i first forced you to play a fighter for a month to only then let it evolve in a mage? Would you play that game?

bloodprophet

Kesthely wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

To expect that people understand how this system will work and see its options without a proper introduction is naive. And to place it behind a 20+ hour timeframe is bad game design.

If a games mentality is "it gets better after 20 hours, or 50 hours or 100 hours" you should ask yourself, why is it that the developers need to do that. Do they think i'm to stupid to understand their system? do they think my first 20 hours of gameplay is irrelevant? Do they feel to force you trough an incomplete itteration of the game, or do they just not care about my time, and use artificial systems to try to make me play longer?
If i would make a game, and you' would make a mage, would you be content if i first forced you to play a fighter for a month to only then let it evolve in a mage? Would you play that game?

I think it is naive to think people can't figure it out. Especially after playing for 20 hours.
The new idea that games will get better after 20,50 or 100 hours needs to die we both agree with this. Hopefully the game will be good from the start and not a mad dash to end game cause that is where all the stuff is. I do find it interesting your stance against leveling as though everyone should have access to all skills and augments from the very start but also think people won't be able to figure it out after playing 20 hours.

Lastly the idea of playing a fighter for 20 hours then taking an augment and becoming a mage is not how the system is being set up, when you pick your secondary archetype you will not get skills form the secondary archetype. Picking fighter at the start it will always be a fighter and will only ever have fighter abilities. The augments will only alter the fighters abilities not change them into mage abilities. This idea keeps coming back every so often.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Classes
A player may choose a secondary archetype when they reach level 25.[3] The combination of primary and secondary archetypes is referred to as a class.[3][1][4]

The secondary archetype does not provide additional skills.[10]

Kesthely

bloodprophet wrote: »

The secondary archetype does not provide additional skills.[10]

No it doesn't grant you additional skills, but it does make you feel like its a different skill.
One of the examples given by intrepid is that it might change the type of damage from magical to physical. This allone has major impacts to your playstyle. the base stats that increase damage and crit chance, for physical attacks is different then for magical attacks. You will require different gear.

This might go so far as that certain professions, will be more advantageous. And you find that out after your lvl 25+. This means that you've spend a lot of time leveling the "wrong" profession.

And there are many more examples that you could think of of situations where you would have made different choices early on if you would have know certain things due to the secondary archtype options.

Why do you insist of it beeing locked behind lvl 25? why not at level 2? The system uses skill points where you get to decide which skills you take, Passive active weaponskilsl and augments. Its already been said that you don't need to augment every skill or even any skill.

If i want to play a highsword or a templar, why do i need to spend 40+ hours (2x 20+ hours) to be able to see the difference between the Fighter cleric or the cleric fighter?

The augment system is going to be an integral part of ashes. If you would look at it and say if i remove augment system entirely would it be the same game, the answer would be no. But at the same time your saying Its ok if for the first half of the game ill play a different game.

The augment system should be present from the start of the game. not something that gets unlocked halfway trough. Sure you might want to save the secondary archetype for later, but you should be able to access some augments from the start.

bloodprophet

And you can access some from the start.
Playing a fighter and playing a cleric will be two completely different things. The secondary will not augment it that much.

"If i want to play a highsword or a templar, why do i need to spend 40+ hours (2x 20+ hours) to be able to see the difference between the Fighter cleric or the cleric fighter?"

One of these is a cleric and a healer. The other is melee DPS.

The only things you will not be able to change is Race, gender and base archetype. Everything else you can change later.

Why should they dumb the game down like every other MMO that most of us here have completely given up on. For me there are no good MMO's anymore because they lack challenge and sophistication. They keep removing anything that allowed you to personalize/customize your character in the name of homogenization(balance) or it's not fair that some one has something I don't.

I think it is a good thing to spread this stuff out and not just give everything right from the start. The microwave, immediate gratification gotta have it right now, NOW. Mind set has killed the genre. Remember when game were about fun , exploration and doing stuff. Facing new challenges and figuring stuff out. They talked about bringing this stuff back to the genre and convinced me to get my wallet out.

Why should everyone have all the answers on day one? Why should there be zero thinking by the individual? Why should everyone be the same? Why should there be no challenges and problems to solve? Why not be locked behind level 25 and enjoy the journey? Should you also have all the skills and abilities of your chosen archetype at level 1? Plus all the possible augments in the game so you can decide what you want to use? Where is the fun in that?

Nerror

This is a total non-issue IMO. All we'd need is a short explanation at character creation that secondary archetypes exist, and very briefly what they do.

There might be a few players that choose to completely ignore information given to them at the beginning and then get pissed enough to leave once they find out their choice to ignore it have consequences. I don't want those people in my life, nor in my game, so them leaving is a win/win for me.

These are people who cannot be relied upon for anything, and certainly not dungeons/raids/pvp or anything else that requires a minimum amount of preparation and commitment in a game. Good riddance.

Azherae

So y'all's argument is basically:

"We don't think that Intrepid can live up to what they said about augments actually being that effective or meaningful in terms of what they change, so there's too small a chance that the situation you're describing will happen."

@Kesthely it sounds like you're wasting your time in this particular vein of responses, because the people you're talking to don't have the same base premises as you, at all.

This is another situation where it's gonna be up to Intrepid to clarify whether or not the attitudes expressed here are the ones they are in line with, so that you'd know whether or not to engage on the topic. If you're not around, I'll probably ask it in the next Q&A for you, if it helps.

As for generality of other posters.

"I find your lack of empathy disturbing... but ultimately unsurprising."

Birthday

Intrepid is doing it right imo. This way it'll keep things fresh. It'll help keep the game interesting for players until they reach max level. Many players quit before max level because the game becomes too repetitive. They've been grinding boars for 55 levels and now they are called to grind Fel Boars. And they are forced to continue grinding boars for another 5 levels with the same rotation - fireball, fireball, fireball. Ashes will change this up for players by giving them the second archetype. And for players who don't want to change, they can just pick mage as their secondary and also get some small changes which will make the game more alive for them.

Besides I doubt that a player won't learn from others or from YouTube videos or from the ingame mechanics about the second archetype at level 25. Even the most casual player will have learned about this by level 20.

Kesthely

Azherae wrote: »

@Kesthely it sounds like you're wasting your time in this particular vein of responses, because the people you're talking to don't have the same base premises as you, at all.

On the contrary, its actually valuable time spend. Each reply allows me to give counter arguments, and raise concerns or explain it in a different light. The topic itself will have more posts so it will have a higher chance to be noted by community managers / developers

@Everyone else don't get me wrong i like the concept of secondary classes and augments. but i think you are underestimating the sever impacts it could have. If your satified with secondary classes just being a reskin of the standard abilities, then so be it, I for one have higher expectations of the augment system.

Taleof2Cities

Kesthely wrote: »

@Everyone else don't get me wrong i like the concept of secondary classes and augments. but i think you are underestimating the sever impacts it could have. If your satified with secondary classes just being a reskin of the standard abilities, then so be it, I for one have higher expectations of the augment system.

We’ll have to let it play out during Beta testing, @Kesthely.

Intrepid has already said they’re not creating 64 unique classes. On the other hand, the evidence so far points to something a bit more than “a reskin of standard abilities”.

Either way, there isn’t going to be a new player exodus from being “unaware” or “unprepared” for their secondary archetype (augment) selection.

Conrad

I find it hard not to agree with Kesthely, he makes a great point. Ppl are against play testing a class you want to play and just want us to go by class and augment blindly (based on previous threads) but problem is it serves no one. Honestly, I think the most optimal route for this would've been to allow all players to start with no class and play test a route they wish to go, that way, they know what will happen. Lowering augment threshold to 15 would also decrease a sudden change in gameplay. You shouldn't have all your spells yet so seeing some ability upgrades should feel natural like in other mmos. Honestly tho, I think allowing a way to test class combos etc would be a great solution overall as well

Noaani

Kesthely wrote: »

The summoning might also change the summoning to an undead creature.
...

all based on the standard summoner with a few augments

To me, this seems like a summoner with a death motif.

Noaani

Azherae wrote: »

So y'all's argument is basically:

"We don't think that Intrepid can live up to what they said about augments actually being that effective or meaningful in terms of what they change, so there's too small a chance that the situation you're describing will happen."

Mine is more - every game introduces major mechanics as a part of the leveling process - that is WHY games have a leveling process in the first place.

Saying Ashes should not introduce a major mechanic to players half way through the initial leveling process
is to not understand MMO design at all.

overfitneuralnet

I don't see an issue with having the augments later in the game - level 25 or even later to be honest. A LOT of games, especially some of the more hardcore and complex ARPGs have build realizations at end game or even past that - which personally annoys me a lot when it comes to PoE because I love that game.
Yea, I know MMORPGs are not ARPGs and they are very different games. PoE for example has builds that you realize around level 70-80 and require comparatively the same grind to an MMO to be able to acquire certain items or skill points that make your build work.
Furthermore, I think that throwing everything at the player all at once may be overwhelming for the more casual players and turn them off because of the perceived complexity.
In Lineage 2 you got your second class upgrade after level 45, which is already 3+ weeks of game time if you play all day. Then you do super fucked up quests that take you another week. Then you need to level up to get points to spend on the extra new skills or upgrades.

Enigmatic Sage

key words is additional skills.

Your primary archetype is set in stone, that is essentially the playstyle you chose. You'll have time to level up and understand those abilities as vertical progression can be seen as one long drawn out training tutorial. If those abilities had 4-5 different variations of them it's not that complicated. Think about diablo 3. You unlocked abilities and they had different runes you could augment the abilities with based on your playstyle. Many RPG's do this regardless of being an MMO or not. Even horizontal progression games have some abilities gated through progression/tiers. Augmentations are augmentations, they change the base ability relatively.

A fighter/cleric will be different than a cleric/fighter because the primary archetypes foundational abilities will be the core of the classes mechanics for augmentations. The secondary archetype opens up possibilities for additional augmentation options based on which secondary archetype you choose etc. It's all based on sources. If they gave augments at level 1 or 25, it wouldn't matter to me but since it's vertical progression, there is more training and story behind the process of leveling up.

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