Thi thing i don't understand is some of your peoples attitudes.
On the one hand you expect Ashes to be this new game, that beats all existing mmo's and revolutionizes the genre. But at the same time you expect that one of its core features, the secondary archtype to be only minor changes? What gives?
It's supposed to be a return to classic MMO-style gaming. From before the studio execs and shareholders weighed in and ruined them all.
Thi thing i don't understand is some of your peoples attitudes.
On the one hand you expect Ashes to be this new game, that beats all existing mmo's and revolutionizes the genre. But at the same time you expect that one of its core features, the secondary archtype to be only minor changes? What gives?
It's supposed to be a return to classic MMO-style gaming. From before the studio execs and shareholders weighed in and ruined them all.
Indeed.
The closest thing to a "core aspect" of the game the class system fulfils is the notion that your primary class is your role.
There is no tank build that is for DPS - there may be a tank build that is more DPS, but pick up groups are not going to be looking for a tank DPS.
Same with fighters. If you are a fighter, you are DPS. You are not a tank, you are not a healer.
This is bringing things back to how they were 20 years ago or so - and is the only aspect of the entire class system that I would consider to be a "core feature of the game".
It's supposed to be a return to classic MMO-style gaming. From before the studio execs and shareholders weighed in and ruined them all.
The thing i remember most about early MMO's is that they allowed you to create your own version of your character. Example in shadow bane you could make a wizard that specialized on an attack that returned some stamina back, one of the races had a flight mechanic that continuously drained stamina, as the mage specialized with that spell you could fly for a lot longer as long as you were attacking enemies with it. It did less damage then other options, but you were a lot safer.
In DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online) you could make all kinds of builds. I once made a elven paladin that was focused on a bow, and became an arcane archer.
a bard that became a verry proficient healer, and so on and so on.
World of warcraft has made it so that everything continuously got simplified, to the point where you now get one choice every 15 levels, out of 3 things, and its really just a choice between pve, pvp or utility. For most the "choices" aren't even choices there.
I'm worried that people expect a similar "not a real choice" mentality for the secondary archetypes. Something, that is in direct contrast to the "return of old school mmo's" because if the changes are going to be minor, there will be "optimized builds, a stagnant meta, and a continuation of the current gamer mentality to min max everything.. With only minor changes there will never be that situation where a fighter cleric is far superior over a fighter mage, and vice versa, and you end op everyone picking the holistic choice. With minor changes, eventually each primary class will be come Fighter with X in 95% of the situations.
a continuation of the current gamer mentality to min max everything.
Min/maxing in MMO's has been around since last millennium.
It is not a "new" thing, or just a "current" thing.
Also, the three games you have listed are all later games than what Intrepid are trying to bring back. In may respects, they are bringing back gameplay elements introduced in the 90's, not the early or mid 2000's.
World of warcraft has made it so that everything continuously got simplified, to the point where you now get one choice every 15 levels, out of 3 things, and its really just a choice between pve, pvp or utility. For most the "choices" aren't even choices there.
I'm worried that people expect a similar "not a real choice" mentality for the secondary archetypes. Something, that is in direct contrast to the "return of old school mmo's" because if the changes are going to be minor, there will be "optimized builds, a stagnant meta, and a continuation of the current gamer mentality to min max everything.. With only minor changes there will never be that situation where a fighter cleric is far superior over a fighter mage, and vice versa, and you end op everyone picking the holistic choice. With minor changes, eventually each primary class will be come Fighter with X in 95% of the situations.
you consider wow vanilla as "old school" and put this kind of mmorpg in opposition in mmorpg with minmaxing...
Vanilla had a lot minmaxing... there wasn't real choice for builds, it is not because people did what they prefer that they was playing good things... You had the core build with 80% of talent point or more you could'nt really change without getting less optimised...
If AoC continue the way they announced, there will be more customisation than wow vanilla. I think it can compete with everquest totally.
for each main archetype, you will have to chose weapon between 15 different weapon (each with their weaponskill set) and one between 8 secundary archetype.
You go from one extrem side (each of 64 class will have a real unique identity) to another.
fighter/mage and fighter/tank will be a fighter... but not the same. The first will have more damages, possibility to have dot maybe (fire augments?) and will have elemental damages. The other will probably have mitigation making it tougher... And there i don't even consider how each weapon and the weapon skills will interact there... Also, add augments from races... (fighter tulnar and fighter dwarf ? again some difference)
We are not saying we have choice between 8 character, far from it. we just say, there is not 64 classes in the same way we consider classes in FFXIV, WoW, ESO or any modern MMORPG
I did minmaxing 20 years ago, before having internet.
Why wow vanilla was less about "the op talent tree" than modern MMORPG ? because now we trade all information, and look for all information. Theorycrafting community are bigger, more invested, communicate more.
you consider wow vanilla as "old school" and put this kind of mmorpg in opposition in mmorpg with minmaxing...
Vanilla had a lot minmaxing... there wasn't real choice for builds, it is not because people did what they prefer that they was playing good things... You had the core build with 80% of talent point or more you could'nt really change without getting less optimised...
You understand me wrong, i dont consider Warcraft as an MMORPG, i blame WoW for the decline of it from an MMORPG into a MMO hack and slash, into a hack and slash with sometimes encountering other people in the later expansions. But to its immense popularity all other MMORPG's followed its suit. in current MMORPG's there's little to no RPG to be found.
You go from one extrem side (each of 64 class will have a real unique identity) to another.
Another false interpretation. I want the classes to feel different. and not with fighter/cleric you'll be able to add a little bit of holy damage and with fighter/mage you'll add a little bit of fire damage. and that that is ALL the difference the 2 choices bring. Keeping in the wow analogy since most people know that game, i imagine the secondary classes to be as different as different specs. for example Cleric/mage would be a shadow priest, Cleric/Bard would be a discipline priest, and Cleric/Cleric would be a holy priest. Still clerics, but each of the secondary classes would be more proficient with boosting a different subset of the clerics arsenal, and thus prioritize a different playstyle. One of the inspirations of Ashes is Lineage II wich has 31 classes. even wow has 12 classes. Your telling me that Ashes will become more bland class wise then WoW?
i imagine the secondary classes to be as different as different specs. for example Cleric/mage would be a shadow priest, Cleric/Bard would be a discipline priest, and Cleric/Cleric would be a holy priest.
This is the part of newer MMO's that Intrepid are trying to get rid of.
A Disciple and Holy priest in WoW are both healers, a Shadow priest is DPS.
In Ashes, a cleric is a healer regardless of secondary.
While L2 is indeed an inspiration for Ashes, it is only one of several games that heavily influence it (it isn't even the game that seems to provide the most inspiration, honestly). While L2 has 31 classes on paper, in reality it has 9, and ever so slightly alters these 9 for different races, gives them different names and then is able to call them each a class.
As to your comparison to WoW, again it is WoW's "respec to be any role you want" that is what Intrepid are specifically trying to avoid in Ashes. As in, the entire point of the game is to NOT be like WoW.
If you consider a game that has 8 different classes each with 8 different build paths available to every race to be more bland than WoW's "be whatever you want", or L2's "9 classes but lets call it 31, but also limit which class you can be based on your race", then I'm not quite sure what to tell you.
If you consider a game that has 8 different classes each with 8 different build paths available to every race to be more bland than WoW's "be whatever you want", or L2's "9 classes but lets call it 31, but also limit which class you can be based on your race", then I'm not quite sure what to tell you.
the thing is that is what you'll get if your content with secondary archetypes being just minor differences or side grades of the main arch type. you'll get 8 classes but lets call it 64 classes. And each of those 8 classes will be like wow's "be whatever you want" syndrome.
World of warcraft is the perfect example of what NOT to do in an MMO. at that time (2004) wow was unique, it allowed a more casual audience to enjoy MMO's but they took "user friendliness" and "balance" to far, so its hardly recognizable as an MMO or an RPG anymore.
Ashes is trying to go back to the MMORPG stage where your decisions are meaningful. What you don't want is it to be just minor alterations, because then your decisions won't be meaningful at all.
In Ashes every decision will be meaningful. What area you want to go to so that one gets xp as you do your stuff, it will depend which nodes grow, and how fast, it will unlock certain things based on the node type, and it will be depended on the players what kind of buildings will be build in what order, by node growth more content will be unlocked, And so on And so on. All based on your decision of what your going to do. Then you add additional systems on top of that which synergize with it, Crafting that require different people to help unlock the most powerful stuff, a faith system that might make each node unique in a different way, etc etc.
And then you want to have a class where the decision how your character, the most important "resource" in the game from a player perspective, only has minor changes to differentiate between other players.
Ashes is trying to go back to the MMORPG stage where your decisions are meaningful. What you don't want is it to be just minor alterations, because then your decisions won't be meaningful at all.
The most meaningful decision about your class in Ashes is your primary class. It determines your role.
Your secondary class adds flavor, and perhaps some side utility to that role, but your role remains.
The suggestions you have been making in this thread amount to your secondary class altering your role. Whether that is what you mean or not, it is what you have been saying.
If Ashes did this, if it allowed every primary class to have two or more roles it could fulfill, then that demeans the decision you made about your primary class.
In order for a decision to be meaningful, you have to be missing out on something.
Since we can swap out secondary classes, players are not missing out on anything, regardless of the choice they make here. As such, your secondary class choice can never be meaningful.
In Ashes, a cleric is a healer regardless of secondary.
Meanwhile I'm just over here hoping this doesn't turn out to be the case...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You are - of course - welcome to hope what ever you like.
However, in a game where the developers have specifically said "when you pick a primary class, that IS your role", it is fairly safe to assume that when you pick a primary class, that is your role.
The only exception Intrepid seem to be potentially considering to this is the Summoner.
In Ashes, a cleric is a healer regardless of secondary.
Meanwhile I'm just over here hoping this doesn't turn out to be the case...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You are - of course - welcome to hope what ever you like.
However, in a game where the developers have specifically said "when you pick a primary class, that IS your role", it is fairly safe to assume that when you pick a primary class, that is your role.
The only exception Intrepid seem to be potentially considering to this is the Summoner.
And they have said that augments can drastically change abilities. And there is nothing saying those won't change their role.
Honestly if it doesn't have that level of impact then it doesn't matter when they introduce it since it won't be changing anything...
And they have said that augments can drastically change abilities. And there is nothing saying those won't change their role.
What they have said is that Aug.ents can drastically change an ability, but not a role.
A mages nuke will always be a nuke, regardless of augment. A healers heal will always be a heal. A tanks block will always be a block.
They haven't said that though... Not that I've seen. They haven't mentioned roles and augments at all.
Honestly they have very few examples of the range at which augments can change an ability at all.
If intrepid wants to they could easily use this system to make roles more flexible among archtypes, which is what I'm hoping they do.
As I said though, if it doesn't have the ability to change stuff that much, then it doesn't matter when it is introduced... Could be level 10 or at level cap.
If intrepid wants to they could easily use this system to make roles more flexible among archtypes, which is what I'm hoping they do.
Yes, if they wanted to they could.
The thing is, they don't want to.
They want your choices to matter.
When you chose your primary class, you are choosing your role. If you can change your role just by changing your secondary class, then your choice in regards to primary class means nothing.
That is specifically what Intrepid have said - the comment about your primary class being your role is a quote from Steven.
The suggestions you have been making in this thread amount to your secondary class altering your role. Whether that is what you mean or not, it is what you have been saying.
Not altering role, altering playstyle. Eg a Fighter (DPS) goes from playstyle Melee dps to Ranged dps if choosing Fighter/Ranger or from pure physical to hybrid or magical from Fighter/Mage. Those are different playstyles while retaining your DPS role.
If you can't change the playstyle of the primary archetype, then what's the point of including some of the secondary's. If you don't want a melee class to become ranged, there shouldn't be an option to pick the ranger as a secondary playstyle.
In my vision of Ashes, a group consists of 1 of every class. But sometimes you can't find a ranger, but you do have a fighter/ranger or rogue/ranger that specialized as ranged. You have the Ranged Physical DPS role that way. The class retains its role (dps) and the group retains its playstyle (Ranged physical dps)
Edit for clarification: I don't want a Fighter / Cleric to be able to heal others, i would like the fighter/cleric to have more sustain in the form of choosing some or all of its abilities to be able to self heal
You don't know that. The information the've given on the augment system and the impact of the secondary archetypes remains vague at best. Most likely because they only have a concept, and not a first draft of it.
Before they go drafting on that (if they haven't already) it might be good to know what the community wants.
Here is a few things thats been said troughout the threat and that might be included in augments
Augments should:
Retain the primary archetypes role
Offer a way to change playstyle while retaining the role
Might lead to having to use different gear
Some want augments to have major effects
Some want augments to have minor effects
I'm going to edit the "augments should" section int the OP. Plz add onto that list by saying what according to you augments should do (preferably in the form of "Augments should: (your opinion) so iits clear that you want to include it in the list)
A player chooses their primary archetype at the start of the game.[3][7]
A player cannot change their primary archetype.[8][1]
Players receive skill points as they level. These can be used to level up skills within their skill tree.[9]
It will not be possible to max all skills in a skill tree.[9]
A player may choose a secondary archetype when they reach level 25.[3] The combination of primary and secondary archetypes is referred to as a class.[3][1][4]
The secondary archetype does not provide additional skills.[10]
Secondary archetypes may be changed, but not "on-the-fly".[8][11]
The player can then augment their primary skills with effects from their secondary archetype.[3][7]
Each skill in the primary tree will have several augment options from the secondary tree. This is an example of horizontal progression.[7]
Augments to primary skills can fundamentally change the way the ability works - adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary archetype/class.[12]
Not altering role, altering playstyle. Eg a Fighter (DPS) goes from playstyle Melee dps to Ranged dps if choosing Fighter/Ranger or from pure physical to hybrid or magical from Fighter/Mage. Those are different playstyles while retaining your DPS role.
If this is what you are wanting to communicate, why would you talk about a class where you change your role from healer to DPS?
if you go back through this thread, literally everyone is telling you that augments do not allow you to alter your role, that this is set by your primary class. Why has it taken you this long to decide to say that this isn't what you are talking about?
From reading your entire OP, you clearly don't have any clue as to how Ashes of Creation is going to function. I would highly suggest hitting up the wiki and/or https://ashes101.com/combat#overview in order to learn how the game is actually designed. 95% of your concerns aren't valid because they don't even exist in what Intrepid is planning.
And this is how you decided to troll people into reading your website? No tantalizing crumbs, no actual argument, just tearing people down? Big oof.
I'm not sure if I'm quoting him directly or paraphrasing:
"Facts don't care about your feelings and neither does Jahlon"
It's how he is, it's nothing personal, he just doesn't sugar coat what he has to say. To anyone.
I find that refreshing because I value the truth. His post is his honest assessment of the facts followed by a helpful link; not trolling as I don't believe he intended to deliberately provoke a response. More like "OP is wrong on many levels, go do homework".
If you want to dispute the facts, or your assessment of them has a different conclusion, then I'm sure he'd be happy to have a fact based discussion with anyone. Just leave Ego's at the door before entering the room.
I don't feel the need to stand up for Jahlon - he's more than capable of doing that for himself! - this is me showing support for his contribution to the community and promoting fact based discussions.
When I'm posting I can waffle and I can get facts wrong, explain things poorly or just not research them as well as I should. I never have a problem with someone pointing out any genuine deficiencies in my post, especially when they are backed up by a link to documented facts. By the peculiarities of fate it frequently seems to be @unknownsystemerror pointing out my forum shortcomings, but I have nothing but gratitude and respect that he does so. We all benefit from "engaging brain before opening mouth" and researching the subject matter before commenting is the online equivalent.
Since many people (Including myself) have veered of the original concern, let me reiterate it again.
My primary concern is that the implementation of the secondary archetype unlock takes to long. People will have to play a incomplete character for to long before they can get a feeling of its end game playstyle. This might result in people discontinue playing due to their expectations not meeting reality, and then be unwilling to spend the same amount of time redoing their character with a chance of the same thing happening again
People will have to play a incomplete character for to long before they can get a feeling of its end game playstyle.
We moved on from that point because it is irrelevant.
Most games put each classes signature ability at the level cap, meaning you don't get a feel for how the class will play until you hit that level cap.
I expect nothing less from Ashes.
That said, Ashes will not have players just play their secondary class, but rather change between many of those available to them at times, teaching players the basics of the base class before going in to specifics of a particular build seems wise - 25 levels doesn't actually seem quite enough there imo.
Lastly, since there are other more important things for the game to communicate to players early on in the game, and you do not want to throw too much at players too quickly, delaying the advent of secondary class acquisition until after those more important things have been communicated seems smart.
All of the points that we have bought up are still valid, you attempting to reset the discussion doesn't change that.
This might result in people discontinue playing due to their expectations not meeting reality, and then be unwilling to spend the same amount of time redoing their character with a chance of the same thing happening again
This is the point we are speaking about.
And you know what, even with a fighter/mage feeling like a fighter/mage, it can cause a guy who wanted all his life to play fighter/mage to dislike what he will have in the end.
Fighter/fighter and fighter/mage will have different weaks and strengths clearly. But will it have a full different gameplay, coming from proc to pure rotation (for example) i totally doubt...
I am part of those hoping while role will be defined by the primary archetype (so fighter = DPS) augments can do a slight alteration (so mage/tank could do a light offtank work, with augment helping with hate generation and other with some mitigation. While mage can already equip heavy armor).
What i did quote is what we are speaking. the problem is : we don't know if the impact of secundary will be so strong. Secundary archetype will give augments... like does race. and we don't know how major will be the choice of the weapon and the armor for the character... Gameplay won't be only race + primary + secundary, but also weapon. If the weapon represent by itself 50% of gameplay... yes secundary archetype will have a reduced impact on the game...
It would be nice if there were some information about your class, potention augmentations later on. Without having to go in full detail.... Or the wiki will datamine it and have it there Or some other site
Most games put each classes signature ability at the level cap, meaning you don't get a feel for how the class will play until you hit that level cap.
I expect nothing less from Ashes.
Statistics show that this is not the case. The majority of games put their strongest ability at roughly 80% of the playthrough. For those that do have a capstone ability this is often a (long) cooldown ability that's interwoven in its playstyle instead of being the playstyle.
That said, Ashes will not have players just play their secondary class, but rather change between many of those available to them at times, teaching players the basics of the base class before going in to specifics of a particular build seems wise - 25 levels doesn't actually seem quite enough there imo.
Again conjecture of how your going to be playing the game. There will be a lot of players that will remain the same secondary, depending on how difficult it is to switch secondary's, or how many augment options they have from other sources to negate their weak points or augment their strengths.
Lastly, since there are other more important things for the game to communicate to players early on in the game, and you do not want to throw too much at players too quickly, delaying the advent of secondary class acquisition until after those more important things have been communicated seems smart.
Again based on what you find important. as said before all the things that you mention and find more important are optional systems and activities. The things that happen in Ashes will feel similar to events in other games. the changes are introduced organically. New monsters appear, more dungeon floors unlock, towns grow, or get destroyed. There are only a very few player activities that require knowledge from the (node)system. (Mastery in crafting, becoming mayor) And i assume that all of them will happen way later then lvl 25.
This might result in people discontinue playing due to their expectations not meeting reality, and then be unwilling to spend the same amount of time redoing their character with a chance of the same thing happening again
This is the point we are speaking about.
And you know what, even with a fighter/mage feeling like a fighter/mage, it can cause a guy who wanted all his life to play fighter/mage to dislike what he will have in the end.
True, and that's why i'm wondering if lvl 25 is to late in the game for getting access to the secondary's.
The majority of people will not spend 20+ hours (if to lvl 25 the average time to level is shy of 1 hour) or 50+ hours (if the average time to level up is 2 hours) a second time if they are not satisfied the fist time of what the end playstyle is.
Why does the game need me to bind my hands together for 20 or 50+ hours. Explaining the node system is as simple as "Your activities allow the region to grow more prosperous, but be warned others might attack what you worked so hard for."
If your Tutorial is a 20 hour long session, then most people will have forgotten the first 19 hours by the time they complete it anyways.
Again based on what you find important. as said before all the things that you mention and find more important are optional systems and activities.
Except this isn't true.
In order for what needs to be communicated to players about the node system to be considered "optional systems and activities", you would also need.to consider combat (and thus classes) optional.
You could be in a level 20 area one day, fighting off sentient flowers. Due to node changes, the very next day that exact same area may well be filled with level 40 golem.
The node system alters the very content we play. The stuff you use your class to fight against changes based on node state. This NEEDS to be communicated to players early. I mean, you seem to not be aware of the effects of node changes and you are posting on the games forum several years before launch. If you don't know, some random player that picked the game up on a whim will surely have no idea at all.
You could be in a level 20 area one day, fighting off sentient flowers. Due to node changes, the very next day that exact same area may well be filled with level 40 golem.
The node system alters the very content we play. The stuff you use your class to fight against changes based on node state. This NEEDS to be communicated to players early. I mean, you seem to not be aware of the effects of node changes and you are posting on the games forum several years before launch. If you don't know, some random player that picked the game up on a whim will surely have no idea at all.
The node system is only important on server basis. It creates, updates and keeps the world alive. While all activities are (in)directly linked to nodes, from a average player perspective you only need to know the folloing. Everything you do has an impact on the world, and due to player actions things might change.
Your example is a bit exaggerated as well, while it is true that you can suddenly see an increase in level you will probably not see a doubling of level AND a entirely different creature type. It will most likely be more in the line of the lvl 20's will be lvl 25's or even 25 elites. A dangerous change if you are unaware of it, but not something insurmountable. They still need to keep it relevant. Those sentient flowers you were fighting might have a quest attached to kill them. upgrading the level or elite status, makes the quest harder, changing them to golems would make the quest undoable in some cases.
Knowing the node system as thoroughly as you suggest is contradicting the essence of the game.
System wise:
If the node system is so "simple" that you can explain it to players then its also so "simple" that you can predict, "if i upgrade the town are to city area, and the major contributor of the node is Dunir, then those flowers will turn into golem of this approximate level" then i can guarantee you that there will be people that theory craft the best approach to obtain that stuff witch they consider BIS.
To much info on a system is more detrimental than to few. Wow classic is the perfect example of it. From a fun game in 2004, where the classes were relatively equally represented in the "hardest" raids, due to theory crafting they were stacking only one class in the wow classic re-release. If the formula's of the node system are well enough known you will see people do the same. If class X with Secondary Y of race Z contributes the most of Noda A of tier 3, then tier 4 will spawn Monster type M. And i can guarantee you that there will be entire communities dedicated not only to data mine that stuff, but also testing and trying to trigger that.
So no, having a better understanding of the Node system is not always better for the game or player alike.
Roleplay wise:
Ashes is a mmo RPG. Role playing game. your character plays a role in a fantasy world. from an RPG standpoints its inconceivable that the fact that your chopping wood, that area you are currently in will develop into a city. on a character perspective, this is actually detrimental. If because your chopping wood, a city is formed in this spot, there will be less wood for you to chop. From a character explanation standpoint you can explain the node gaining experience as, the area that you cleared from wood has now been designated as development area. The wood that you sold has been used for housing. You do an action, it has an influence on the world. That's ALL you need to know. Mobs getting stronger? Easily explained in RPG as well. Your culling of the weaker (insert mob type) has resulted in only the strong surviving, and thus they became stronger and harder to deal with (higher level / elite).
Notice that the underlying words of Node and system are never used. You cant make an (mmo) RPG game and dilute it with game systems information. That would be in direct conflict of the nature of RPG.
Your example is a bit exaggerated as well, while it is true that you can suddenly see an increase in level you will probably not see a doubling of level AND a entirely different creature type.
That kind of thing absolutely will happen. it is absolutely probable that parts of the world will go from only being influenced by a level 2 military node, to the very next day also being influenced by a level 6 economic node. It could also happen in reverse where a level 0 node in a metropolis ZoI goes from being influenced by that metropolis, to the very next day having no nodes influencing it at all.
There will be massive changes in population in some areas as node influence changes - that is inevitable with the node system.
Your dismissive attitude towards players having an understanding of the node system in Ashes (literally the only thing that sets Ashes apart from other MMO's) is about like saying that all players need to know about subclasses is that they get some abilities, and they can use them to kill stuff or help their friends, and they can change their subclass if they don't like it.
If you are going to be dismissive of the node system and players understanding of it, you need to be equally dismissive of the class system and players understanding of it.
Honestly, I think your dismissing attitude towards the node system stems from a total lack of comprehension as to the impact it will at times have on the population of a given part of the world.
Comments
It's supposed to be a return to classic MMO-style gaming. From before the studio execs and shareholders weighed in and ruined them all.
Indeed.
The closest thing to a "core aspect" of the game the class system fulfils is the notion that your primary class is your role.
There is no tank build that is for DPS - there may be a tank build that is more DPS, but pick up groups are not going to be looking for a tank DPS.
Same with fighters. If you are a fighter, you are DPS. You are not a tank, you are not a healer.
This is bringing things back to how they were 20 years ago or so - and is the only aspect of the entire class system that I would consider to be a "core feature of the game".
The thing i remember most about early MMO's is that they allowed you to create your own version of your character. Example in shadow bane you could make a wizard that specialized on an attack that returned some stamina back, one of the races had a flight mechanic that continuously drained stamina, as the mage specialized with that spell you could fly for a lot longer as long as you were attacking enemies with it. It did less damage then other options, but you were a lot safer.
In DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online) you could make all kinds of builds. I once made a elven paladin that was focused on a bow, and became an arcane archer.
a bard that became a verry proficient healer, and so on and so on.
World of warcraft has made it so that everything continuously got simplified, to the point where you now get one choice every 15 levels, out of 3 things, and its really just a choice between pve, pvp or utility. For most the "choices" aren't even choices there.
I'm worried that people expect a similar "not a real choice" mentality for the secondary archetypes. Something, that is in direct contrast to the "return of old school mmo's" because if the changes are going to be minor, there will be "optimized builds, a stagnant meta, and a continuation of the current gamer mentality to min max everything.. With only minor changes there will never be that situation where a fighter cleric is far superior over a fighter mage, and vice versa, and you end op everyone picking the holistic choice. With minor changes, eventually each primary class will be come Fighter with X in 95% of the situations.
It is not a "new" thing, or just a "current" thing.
Also, the three games you have listed are all later games than what Intrepid are trying to bring back. In may respects, they are bringing back gameplay elements introduced in the 90's, not the early or mid 2000's.
you consider wow vanilla as "old school" and put this kind of mmorpg in opposition in mmorpg with minmaxing...
Vanilla had a lot minmaxing... there wasn't real choice for builds, it is not because people did what they prefer that they was playing good things... You had the core build with 80% of talent point or more you could'nt really change without getting less optimised...
If AoC continue the way they announced, there will be more customisation than wow vanilla. I think it can compete with everquest totally.
for each main archetype, you will have to chose weapon between 15 different weapon (each with their weaponskill set) and one between 8 secundary archetype.
You go from one extrem side (each of 64 class will have a real unique identity) to another.
fighter/mage and fighter/tank will be a fighter... but not the same. The first will have more damages, possibility to have dot maybe (fire augments?) and will have elemental damages. The other will probably have mitigation making it tougher... And there i don't even consider how each weapon and the weapon skills will interact there... Also, add augments from races... (fighter tulnar and fighter dwarf ? again some difference)
We are not saying we have choice between 8 character, far from it. we just say, there is not 64 classes in the same way we consider classes in FFXIV, WoW, ESO or any modern MMORPG
I did minmaxing 20 years ago, before having internet.
Why wow vanilla was less about "the op talent tree" than modern MMORPG ? because now we trade all information, and look for all information. Theorycrafting community are bigger, more invested, communicate more.
You understand me wrong, i dont consider Warcraft as an MMORPG, i blame WoW for the decline of it from an MMORPG into a MMO hack and slash, into a hack and slash with sometimes encountering other people in the later expansions. But to its immense popularity all other MMORPG's followed its suit. in current MMORPG's there's little to no RPG to be found.
Another false interpretation. I want the classes to feel different. and not with fighter/cleric you'll be able to add a little bit of holy damage and with fighter/mage you'll add a little bit of fire damage. and that that is ALL the difference the 2 choices bring. Keeping in the wow analogy since most people know that game, i imagine the secondary classes to be as different as different specs. for example Cleric/mage would be a shadow priest, Cleric/Bard would be a discipline priest, and Cleric/Cleric would be a holy priest. Still clerics, but each of the secondary classes would be more proficient with boosting a different subset of the clerics arsenal, and thus prioritize a different playstyle. One of the inspirations of Ashes is Lineage II wich has 31 classes. even wow has 12 classes. Your telling me that Ashes will become more bland class wise then WoW?
A Disciple and Holy priest in WoW are both healers, a Shadow priest is DPS.
In Ashes, a cleric is a healer regardless of secondary.
While L2 is indeed an inspiration for Ashes, it is only one of several games that heavily influence it (it isn't even the game that seems to provide the most inspiration, honestly). While L2 has 31 classes on paper, in reality it has 9, and ever so slightly alters these 9 for different races, gives them different names and then is able to call them each a class.
As to your comparison to WoW, again it is WoW's "respec to be any role you want" that is what Intrepid are specifically trying to avoid in Ashes. As in, the entire point of the game is to NOT be like WoW.
If you consider a game that has 8 different classes each with 8 different build paths available to every race to be more bland than WoW's "be whatever you want", or L2's "9 classes but lets call it 31, but also limit which class you can be based on your race", then I'm not quite sure what to tell you.
the thing is that is what you'll get if your content with secondary archetypes being just minor differences or side grades of the main arch type. you'll get 8 classes but lets call it 64 classes. And each of those 8 classes will be like wow's "be whatever you want" syndrome.
World of warcraft is the perfect example of what NOT to do in an MMO. at that time (2004) wow was unique, it allowed a more casual audience to enjoy MMO's but they took "user friendliness" and "balance" to far, so its hardly recognizable as an MMO or an RPG anymore.
Ashes is trying to go back to the MMORPG stage where your decisions are meaningful. What you don't want is it to be just minor alterations, because then your decisions won't be meaningful at all.
In Ashes every decision will be meaningful. What area you want to go to so that one gets xp as you do your stuff, it will depend which nodes grow, and how fast, it will unlock certain things based on the node type, and it will be depended on the players what kind of buildings will be build in what order, by node growth more content will be unlocked, And so on And so on. All based on your decision of what your going to do. Then you add additional systems on top of that which synergize with it, Crafting that require different people to help unlock the most powerful stuff, a faith system that might make each node unique in a different way, etc etc.
And then you want to have a class where the decision how your character, the most important "resource" in the game from a player perspective, only has minor changes to differentiate between other players.
The most meaningful decision about your class in Ashes is your primary class. It determines your role.
Your secondary class adds flavor, and perhaps some side utility to that role, but your role remains.
The suggestions you have been making in this thread amount to your secondary class altering your role. Whether that is what you mean or not, it is what you have been saying.
If Ashes did this, if it allowed every primary class to have two or more roles it could fulfill, then that demeans the decision you made about your primary class.
In order for a decision to be meaningful, you have to be missing out on something.
Since we can swap out secondary classes, players are not missing out on anything, regardless of the choice they make here. As such, your secondary class choice can never be meaningful.
Your primary class choice, however, can.
Meanwhile I'm just over here hoping this doesn't turn out to be the case...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You are - of course - welcome to hope what ever you like.
However, in a game where the developers have specifically said "when you pick a primary class, that IS your role", it is fairly safe to assume that when you pick a primary class, that is your role.
The only exception Intrepid seem to be potentially considering to this is the Summoner.
And they have said that augments can drastically change abilities. And there is nothing saying those won't change their role.
Honestly if it doesn't have that level of impact then it doesn't matter when they introduce it since it won't be changing anything...
A mages nuke will always be a nuke, regardless of augment. A healers heal will always be a heal. A tanks block will always be a block.
They haven't said that though... Not that I've seen. They haven't mentioned roles and augments at all.
Honestly they have very few examples of the range at which augments can change an ability at all.
If intrepid wants to they could easily use this system to make roles more flexible among archtypes, which is what I'm hoping they do.
As I said though, if it doesn't have the ability to change stuff that much, then it doesn't matter when it is introduced... Could be level 10 or at level cap.
Yes, if they wanted to they could.
The thing is, they don't want to.
They want your choices to matter.
When you chose your primary class, you are choosing your role. If you can change your role just by changing your secondary class, then your choice in regards to primary class means nothing.
That is specifically what Intrepid have said - the comment about your primary class being your role is a quote from Steven.
Not altering role, altering playstyle. Eg a Fighter (DPS) goes from playstyle Melee dps to Ranged dps if choosing Fighter/Ranger or from pure physical to hybrid or magical from Fighter/Mage. Those are different playstyles while retaining your DPS role.
If you can't change the playstyle of the primary archetype, then what's the point of including some of the secondary's. If you don't want a melee class to become ranged, there shouldn't be an option to pick the ranger as a secondary playstyle.
In my vision of Ashes, a group consists of 1 of every class. But sometimes you can't find a ranger, but you do have a fighter/ranger or rogue/ranger that specialized as ranged. You have the Ranged Physical DPS role that way. The class retains its role (dps) and the group retains its playstyle (Ranged physical dps)
Edit for clarification: I don't want a Fighter / Cleric to be able to heal others, i would like the fighter/cleric to have more sustain in the form of choosing some or all of its abilities to be able to self heal
You don't know that. The information the've given on the augment system and the impact of the secondary archetypes remains vague at best. Most likely because they only have a concept, and not a first draft of it.
Before they go drafting on that (if they haven't already) it might be good to know what the community wants.
Here is a few things thats been said troughout the threat and that might be included in augments
Augments should:
Retain the primary archetypes role
Offer a way to change playstyle while retaining the role
Might lead to having to use different gear
Some want augments to have major effects
Some want augments to have minor effects
I'm going to edit the "augments should" section int the OP. Plz add onto that list by saying what according to you augments should do (preferably in the form of "Augments should: (your opinion) so iits clear that you want to include it in the list)
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Classes
A player chooses their primary archetype at the start of the game.[3][7]
A player cannot change their primary archetype.[8][1]
Players receive skill points as they level. These can be used to level up skills within their skill tree.[9]
It will not be possible to max all skills in a skill tree.[9]
A player may choose a secondary archetype when they reach level 25.[3] The combination of primary and secondary archetypes is referred to as a class.[3][1][4]
The secondary archetype does not provide additional skills.[10]
Secondary archetypes may be changed, but not "on-the-fly".[8][11]
The player can then augment their primary skills with effects from their secondary archetype.[3][7]
Each skill in the primary tree will have several augment options from the secondary tree. This is an example of horizontal progression.[7]
Augments to primary skills can fundamentally change the way the ability works - adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary archetype/class.[12]
If this is what you are wanting to communicate, why would you talk about a class where you change your role from healer to DPS?
if you go back through this thread, literally everyone is telling you that augments do not allow you to alter your role, that this is set by your primary class. Why has it taken you this long to decide to say that this isn't what you are talking about?
I'm not sure if I'm quoting him directly or paraphrasing:
"Facts don't care about your feelings and neither does Jahlon"
It's how he is, it's nothing personal, he just doesn't sugar coat what he has to say. To anyone.
I find that refreshing because I value the truth. His post is his honest assessment of the facts followed by a helpful link; not trolling as I don't believe he intended to deliberately provoke a response. More like "OP is wrong on many levels, go do homework".
If you want to dispute the facts, or your assessment of them has a different conclusion, then I'm sure he'd be happy to have a fact based discussion with anyone. Just leave Ego's at the door before entering the room.
I don't feel the need to stand up for Jahlon - he's more than capable of doing that for himself! - this is me showing support for his contribution to the community and promoting fact based discussions.
When I'm posting I can waffle and I can get facts wrong, explain things poorly or just not research them as well as I should. I never have a problem with someone pointing out any genuine deficiencies in my post, especially when they are backed up by a link to documented facts. By the peculiarities of fate it frequently seems to be @unknownsystemerror pointing out my forum shortcomings, but I have nothing but gratitude and respect that he does so. We all benefit from "engaging brain before opening mouth" and researching the subject matter before commenting is the online equivalent.
Our forum's MVP, by far.
I would have to concur.
My primary concern is that the implementation of the secondary archetype unlock takes to long. People will have to play a incomplete character for to long before they can get a feeling of its end game playstyle. This might result in people discontinue playing due to their expectations not meeting reality, and then be unwilling to spend the same amount of time redoing their character with a chance of the same thing happening again
Most games put each classes signature ability at the level cap, meaning you don't get a feel for how the class will play until you hit that level cap.
I expect nothing less from Ashes.
That said, Ashes will not have players just play their secondary class, but rather change between many of those available to them at times, teaching players the basics of the base class before going in to specifics of a particular build seems wise - 25 levels doesn't actually seem quite enough there imo.
Lastly, since there are other more important things for the game to communicate to players early on in the game, and you do not want to throw too much at players too quickly, delaying the advent of secondary class acquisition until after those more important things have been communicated seems smart.
All of the points that we have bought up are still valid, you attempting to reset the discussion doesn't change that.
This is the point we are speaking about.
And you know what, even with a fighter/mage feeling like a fighter/mage, it can cause a guy who wanted all his life to play fighter/mage to dislike what he will have in the end.
Fighter/fighter and fighter/mage will have different weaks and strengths clearly. But will it have a full different gameplay, coming from proc to pure rotation (for example) i totally doubt...
I am part of those hoping while role will be defined by the primary archetype (so fighter = DPS) augments can do a slight alteration (so mage/tank could do a light offtank work, with augment helping with hate generation and other with some mitigation. While mage can already equip heavy armor).
What i did quote is what we are speaking. the problem is : we don't know if the impact of secundary will be so strong. Secundary archetype will give augments... like does race. and we don't know how major will be the choice of the weapon and the armor for the character... Gameplay won't be only race + primary + secundary, but also weapon. If the weapon represent by itself 50% of gameplay... yes secundary archetype will have a reduced impact on the game...
Statistics show that this is not the case. The majority of games put their strongest ability at roughly 80% of the playthrough. For those that do have a capstone ability this is often a (long) cooldown ability that's interwoven in its playstyle instead of being the playstyle.
Again conjecture of how your going to be playing the game. There will be a lot of players that will remain the same secondary, depending on how difficult it is to switch secondary's, or how many augment options they have from other sources to negate their weak points or augment their strengths.
Again based on what you find important. as said before all the things that you mention and find more important are optional systems and activities. The things that happen in Ashes will feel similar to events in other games. the changes are introduced organically. New monsters appear, more dungeon floors unlock, towns grow, or get destroyed. There are only a very few player activities that require knowledge from the (node)system. (Mastery in crafting, becoming mayor) And i assume that all of them will happen way later then lvl 25.
I started this discussion, if i feel its veered of course i'm well in my right to try to steer it back on track
True, and that's why i'm wondering if lvl 25 is to late in the game for getting access to the secondary's.
The majority of people will not spend 20+ hours (if to lvl 25 the average time to level is shy of 1 hour) or 50+ hours (if the average time to level up is 2 hours) a second time if they are not satisfied the fist time of what the end playstyle is.
Why does the game need me to bind my hands together for 20 or 50+ hours. Explaining the node system is as simple as "Your activities allow the region to grow more prosperous, but be warned others might attack what you worked so hard for."
If your Tutorial is a 20 hour long session, then most people will have forgotten the first 19 hours by the time they complete it anyways.
In order for what needs to be communicated to players about the node system to be considered "optional systems and activities", you would also need.to consider combat (and thus classes) optional.
You could be in a level 20 area one day, fighting off sentient flowers. Due to node changes, the very next day that exact same area may well be filled with level 40 golem.
The node system alters the very content we play. The stuff you use your class to fight against changes based on node state. This NEEDS to be communicated to players early. I mean, you seem to not be aware of the effects of node changes and you are posting on the games forum several years before launch. If you don't know, some random player that picked the game up on a whim will surely have no idea at all.
The node system is only important on server basis. It creates, updates and keeps the world alive. While all activities are (in)directly linked to nodes, from a average player perspective you only need to know the folloing. Everything you do has an impact on the world, and due to player actions things might change.
Your example is a bit exaggerated as well, while it is true that you can suddenly see an increase in level you will probably not see a doubling of level AND a entirely different creature type. It will most likely be more in the line of the lvl 20's will be lvl 25's or even 25 elites. A dangerous change if you are unaware of it, but not something insurmountable. They still need to keep it relevant. Those sentient flowers you were fighting might have a quest attached to kill them. upgrading the level or elite status, makes the quest harder, changing them to golems would make the quest undoable in some cases.
Knowing the node system as thoroughly as you suggest is contradicting the essence of the game.
System wise:
If the node system is so "simple" that you can explain it to players then its also so "simple" that you can predict, "if i upgrade the town are to city area, and the major contributor of the node is Dunir, then those flowers will turn into golem of this approximate level" then i can guarantee you that there will be people that theory craft the best approach to obtain that stuff witch they consider BIS.
To much info on a system is more detrimental than to few. Wow classic is the perfect example of it. From a fun game in 2004, where the classes were relatively equally represented in the "hardest" raids, due to theory crafting they were stacking only one class in the wow classic re-release. If the formula's of the node system are well enough known you will see people do the same. If class X with Secondary Y of race Z contributes the most of Noda A of tier 3, then tier 4 will spawn Monster type M. And i can guarantee you that there will be entire communities dedicated not only to data mine that stuff, but also testing and trying to trigger that.
So no, having a better understanding of the Node system is not always better for the game or player alike.
Roleplay wise:
Ashes is a mmo RPG. Role playing game. your character plays a role in a fantasy world. from an RPG standpoints its inconceivable that the fact that your chopping wood, that area you are currently in will develop into a city. on a character perspective, this is actually detrimental. If because your chopping wood, a city is formed in this spot, there will be less wood for you to chop. From a character explanation standpoint you can explain the node gaining experience as, the area that you cleared from wood has now been designated as development area. The wood that you sold has been used for housing. You do an action, it has an influence on the world. That's ALL you need to know. Mobs getting stronger? Easily explained in RPG as well. Your culling of the weaker (insert mob type) has resulted in only the strong surviving, and thus they became stronger and harder to deal with (higher level / elite).
Notice that the underlying words of Node and system are never used. You cant make an (mmo) RPG game and dilute it with game systems information. That would be in direct conflict of the nature of RPG.
There will be massive changes in population in some areas as node influence changes - that is inevitable with the node system.
Your dismissive attitude towards players having an understanding of the node system in Ashes (literally the only thing that sets Ashes apart from other MMO's) is about like saying that all players need to know about subclasses is that they get some abilities, and they can use them to kill stuff or help their friends, and they can change their subclass if they don't like it.
If you are going to be dismissive of the node system and players understanding of it, you need to be equally dismissive of the class system and players understanding of it.
Honestly, I think your dismissing attitude towards the node system stems from a total lack of comprehension as to the impact it will at times have on the population of a given part of the world.