Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
I agree with what you're saying about it not being in a vacuum... But shouldn't people learn the flavor of their own character before anything else?
10 levels in wow out of 60: 16% in to leveling
25 levels in aoc out of 50: 50% in to leveling
Imagine not chosing a spec in wow until level 30
You're saying I should learn how to PvP before getting the other half of my characters identify?
Saying I should be out there learning to PvP when I only have 4 abilities at level 10 sounds weak... I would rather have a more fleshed out character before fighting with it.
Also you sound worried about teaching people about nodes, I think you can teach the basics really straight forward in your 'starting zone' quests. Do these things to help the village grow... Seems super straight forward for some level 1-10/15 stuff... Then augment your character and get a feel... Then start pushing PvP at 25 when you have a full skill bar and some CDs...
Seeking to understand your thoughts.
Is your primary concern that the augments will allow you to move so far from their primary archetype choice that the first archetype choice becomes moot?
or is it that people will be confused that when they hit level 25 and pick their second archetype that picking fighter first then mage second will not allow them to play mage vs fighter?
Is your underlying concern that you cannot change your primary archetype?
That wasn't a quote from me.
Thing is, if you are a mage, the flavor of your character will always be a mage. You may pick bard ass your secondary to become a sorcerer, but the base flavor of your character is still a mage.
Even if you pick to become a sorcerer, since that can be changed to turn you in to a spellstone, which still has you being a mage first, learning to be a mage before you learn to be a sorcerer seems like the right thing to do.
If you just learn to be a sorcerer before you learn to be a mage, then you are in for a much harder time when you do eventually change your secondary. On the other hand, if you learn to be a mage first - you learn the flavor of your class ass you say - then changing to a different subclass will be less of an issue, because you understand the base mage.
While the node system is the most important part of the game, the world revolves around it, as a player you don't need to know anything about the nodes to be able to do well untill you want to master one profession and need a freehold. You can participate in a nodes activities as a non citizen, and have almost all content unlocked. you can join in attacking or defending caravans, nodes, castles, you can do all the crafting up till master, and you canreach endgame without beeing part of the node. Its dungeons and raids are not locked behind citizenship. Therefor, from a player stand point node activities are optional.
character development is not. When you do activities you gain levels. this is a non optional system. And thus it should take priority over everything else for learning. The other game play options are optional. You'll partake and learn about them when you want. Also its my understanding that ashes wants to create a world with little to no handholding. the route your suggesting by learning about everything in a structured way, is diametrically opposed to that.
@Azherae For me class identity is one of the most important aspects of the game. the reason why i'm intrested in ashes is because of the potential to make different and unique builds. The more important thing is how the gameplay feels, but that you can'tell from footage, you actually have to play the game it ints (close to) end state. so i think its to early to discuss that.
So i'll tell of a few of the builds im giong to be intrested in:
Bard Cleric or Bard Ranger Depending on how augments work, and the exact skills of the bard, i want to have a bard that uses buffs, with hopefully healing atached. (Bard Cleric) or offensive / crowdcontrol abilities Bard / Ranger. Aestetics wise i would prefere to be able to use a spear or a bow for this. Preferably Vaelune
Rogue / Bard with a bow/crossbow, so i can use offensive abilities while positioning, and use movembent / crowdcontrol / buff? with bard augmentations and use stealth. Pvp orientated towards group ambushes / clear hostile groups in our controlled dungeons / raids will most likely require racial or weapon augments to attach bow / crossbow to abilties and bardic augments for most other stuff.
Tank /Cleric or Tank/ Bard: Offtank alt, Sometimes you just can't find a tank for some content, and you just want to hop into it yourself, i want a tank to have abilities that protect my party members as much as i can, so one of those secondaries will most likely be suitable for me. This one will require the least amount of unique augments, as long as its some kind of support augment.
Cleric / ??? I haven't decided on what kind of cleric i want to make yet. For this one it doesn't really matter how the augments will be, i'll be able to make a healer regardless.
@Everyone has different expectations wishes and intrests for ashes. Some concerns that people have will not concern others. Some players might not have all the information, or outdated information, or even wrong information. Some even interpret things that is known differently. Their is no right or wrong here.
Its only trough discussions that we can gather what someone else might be intrested in, or how they view things. You don't have to agree. In fact if everyone agreed on everyhing, the perfect game would already exist.
Not moot, but that you might want to have picked a different Primary archtype. I'll give an example. We know that the mage has a blink spell, if you invest points in it, eventually you deal damage on departure, and blink away. you create range. Most mages will want to play a ranged character, but some might not want to.
A fighter with mage archtype does exactly the opposite, it changes its charge ability to a blink like ability, but instead of dealing the damage on departure the damage is at the arrival. instead of creating range, they close range. Depending on the other augments this can be amplified. a standard mage has meteor swarm, an aoe effect with a duration, its a ranged ability. A fighter might have a whirlwind with a bleed effect, an close range aoe ability with a duration. Augment it with an elemental damage type (fire) might make the attack pure magical, and in essence transform it into a close range aoe that basically deals the same initial / damage over time as the normal mage ability. however one mage is specialized on fighting ranged, the other is specialized on fighting in Melee. They both need a completely different Primary archetype.
Are you looking then for the ability to change primaries?
Alts will be a thing and if you want to do a whirlwind fire fire dame vs bleed gonna need to have fighter as your primary.
The level cap for a Free Trial account is (or was) 20 though, right? That's half-way through, where someone will be deciding whether or not they like the game enough to pay.
it doesn't have to be a free trial account. I could log on and level to 20 as much as I want without a sub. You can still play but you just do not gain experience again for that character until you subscribe. This is what I found out when I did it. You can not log onto any character above level 20 though.
@SirChancelot11 percentages do not really matter when compared to time it takes to level. 16% of levels vs 50% of levels are irrelevant. As mentioned earlier, most vertical progression is a long tutorial on how to play your character with period integrations of skills/augmentations
No but if you want to have a certain playstyle as many people do, hence we have multiple classes, its going to be annoying to find out that the playstyle you wanted isn't obtainable, by your primary archetype, but would have been obtainable by another one.
@SirChancelot11 @Noaani @daveywavey lvl 10 in wow is obtainable within 15 mins, but or first time users probably within an hour or 2. This is far from the 20+ hours it will most likely require to level up to 25, only to find out that the thing you were interested in isn't what you expected.
The problem pointed here is "because of secundary archetype getting on lvl 25, people should spend 30 hours before doing a new character because this change all the game ? "
1) I am not sure augment are se deep change... For what we already know, it remains just variation from main archetype.
All fighters will remain fighters. Some will get some mitigation (from tank) other elemental damages (mage) or maybe some cc, or self healing, etc. Their skills will remain around same.
The charge with mage augment can become a fire charge (leaving a trail of fire doing damages) or a blink to the target (instant so). But the skill will be the same basic thing : you are on point A and end on point B which is close to your target.
It won't be such big changes.
2) If the problem is the change from the augments, it mostly can be solved by changing second archetype, which is possible. If no one of the 8 secundary archetype are ok, i think the problem will probably be more the main archetype choice... and so, it can be spot before lvl 25.
If you fantasize about what the fighter-mage could be, thinking "ok, warrior is not fun now, but will be wonderfull with mage" you are on fault for your own disappointment. For what we know now, augments wont transform the character into a new one. Only small part will change, and a part where you have to chose between 8 ways, ways you can change.
Then comes weapon and weapon skills, remember you can be a mage with 2 handed sword and heavy armor... And 2 handed sword wont have same weapon skill than the potion launcher. and it will change how you play your mage... or your fighter, etc. This a thing that seems mostly forgotten in the character identity. And is, i think more important than augments : 2 handed sword = melee. potion laucnher = range.
Today, lvling in MMORPG means nothing, it is just some hours to spend before begining the game. Lvling in all MMORPG i tried those last 10 years are just timespending. And little of learning curve, getting one skill after another (to not have ot understand all at once). All done in once straight travel with no savour. A mmorpg with no more lvling, you spawn max lvl with all skill would be the same.
The lvl25 will be a big step of improvement of charactere, when you have a new tool to customize it. and having a real feel of character improvment, and progression. It is only a psychological thing, yes, totally. But not a useless one.
But that's still just 'I don't think this game is going to be this way, so your concerns are pointless'.
Aren't some of y'all relatively high/top players in other games? Have you never 'had the irritation of practicing a character for months only to get nerfed so bad you had to change to and practice a new one'? (I wish there was a different way to ask this question because I know it is just gonna get that dismissive 'it's not the same' answer, but I can't be bothered, so I'll accept whatever comes)
Oh my mistake, that should have said Kesthely
You should be learning about nodes first thing because otherwise those that do not understand the system will spend basically all of their in game time until they do figure it out just floundering about.
The node system is MUCH more than just housing and crafting, and in fact these are not even the first aspects of it that the game should communicate to players.
The first thing players should learn about the node system is how it changes the games content.
This is FAR more important than learning about something an individual player can change themselves (secondary class), as an individual player has no real impact on nodes, yet the state of nodes has an impact on that player.
I addressed this in the post that I bought it up in
When you have nothing else that you need to show players, you may as well get started on that one easy to understand thing early on.
When you have many things to show players, you need to space them out a little.
In many games, that is exactly what the leveling process is.
This is because the game is simplistic, and developers need not teach players anything.
Ashes has a lot of things it needs to teach players, to the leveling process (probably 1 through to 40) is going to be largely about teach players game mechanics.
When you create a new character, a mage as an example, you spend your first 25 levels playing the base class. Then you pick your secondary.
While it may well be that you don't like the secondary you picked, if you enjoyed the base class then at least you know there is a class in there that you will enjoy.
On the other hand, if you didn't enjoy that base class, it is probably best to reroll a new character with a new base class, as you are quite likely to not really enjoy any of them.
Also, while you may dismiss peoples opinions as saying 'I don't think this game is going to be this way, so your concerns are pointless', please keep in mind that your concerns are basically just 'I do think this game is going to be this way'.
Essentially, you are projecting what you think will happen, and see an issue, Others here are projecting what they think will happen, and see no issue. You can't dismiss other peoples take on how the game will go just because it is their take, without then also dismissing your own take on how you think the game will go due to it only being your take.
That's an assumption on your part. If someone is new to an MMO they're learning how to move, how to pick up and turn in quests, how to use the quest log, and the character interface to equip gear. Sure second nature to us, but that's all learning stuff about the game.
You use mage/bard. But how about mage fighter? That hopefully is two entirely different playstyles that would require you to build your character in a different way. Who what's to spend 20+ hrs learning to be your stereotypical mage when at 25 I'm hopefully switching to an in your face melee battlemage.
And you know my feelings on mage/tank, I'd love to see those augments shift then enough to actually tank content. That again is a huge shift in the way the archtype plays
This is why earlier I said it depends on the scale of what augments can do...
@Enigmatic Sage I want really focusing on the%, I was getting at the huge difference in time investment to determine if you like the way your later game class would feel to play.
20lv would be better. I plan to go fighter/fighter so I rly dont care, but there are lots of ppl here that dream of more specific classes like summoner/cleric etc etc..
No matter what the result is, switching secondary should be challenging, maybe even require a whole group to complete the quest.
It's actually experienced MMO players that will have a harder time learning the node system, as it isn't really like anything else in any popular games. Since the node system affects which quests you have available, which NPC services you have available, which mobs, dungeons, loot, crafting facilities etc you have available, it needs to be taught to players properly and early.
It is the most important thing Intrepid need to communicate to players.
As to the classes you are talking about - no, they won't play all that different.
Both a mage/bard and a mage/fighter play as if they are mages, because that is what they are. If you want something that plays different, you change the base.
As a point to illustrate this - you could be a mage/bard and I could be a mage/fighter, but if we both use augments from other sources (social organizations, religions, race etc), we could effectively be identical.
A full set of 8 different drops, only gatherable/lootable from each of the separate archetypes? Maybe with an extra of the one that you're wanting to add? Along with some sort of questy stuff, of course.
Even as officier i never forced reroll, also never played in world first competition.
People changed specialisation
And yes, "not the same" :
If you take a fighter, hoping being a magical range damage dealer, you are dumb.
When i go on MMORPG, i look the class descrption, to understand their core logic. What they are build around (i like support, heal, pet and dot, so look for such things)
If people do choices just because "the name seems cool" and the "flavour description seems cool" it is their problem.
I expect myself, friends and community to communicate, help each other for such choices. But such choices needs first to understand what you personally wants. You can know it only with experience. The more you play your character, the more you know what you dislike/like (and how to modify/improve it)
if you take a fighter, train it, and get it nerf, you have to suffer a change in the game that was just a "maybe" (or sometime even not) . . . And no one expect you to read on crystall balls.
Also, i prefer ask devs to have a clear description of each main archetype, to allow any newcomer to clearly know what are each strength and weakness. (toughness, mobility, damages, support etc) and specifics shits (dot, fast shoot or slow + heavy damages etc etc) than getting a lvl 10 specialisation while they have lot of the game to learn yet before a less important choice. Also, the longer people will play only primary archetype, the more in the "main archetype" mind they will get, making easier to understand how they want to improve it (getting more damages ? more sustain ? mobility ? etc).
If each 64 class where "real" class like we use this word in most other MMORPG, i would totally speak different. But here, it will be 8 group of 8 specialisations, (if we consider how devs presents augments and what really secundary archetype are)
Most people defending an early choice consider this second archetype choice will be a major thing... no. you can change...
And if you dislike your character with either of the 8 choices, the problem is not "you had to wait untill 25 to chose" but "why did you play a character you dislike such long time? "
Finally, waiting lvl25 as i said allow people to better understand the primary archetype, and have a better insight on how they want to modify/improve it. Changing second archetype won't be just some click, the less people have to do it to find what they like, better it is... And how to avoid to test too many second archetype ? ... By Knowing what you want...
On the one hand you expect Ashes to be this new game, that beats all existing mmo's and revolutionizes the genre. But at the same time you expect that one of its core features, the secondary archtype to be only minor changes? What gives?
When i read the archtype descriptions, and i see that i can play a fighter / ranger, i expect my fighter to be able to be ranged. When i make it a fighter / mage, i expect it to have my abilities be infused with magic, turning some or all of its damage to magical. I also expect that the fighter Ranger will need different gear then the Fighter / mage. I do not expect it them to be indistinguishable from a fight/fighter.
To me it seems an apathic approach. Other MMO's failed to be innovative in character development, so Ashes also isn't going to be innovative. If you all expect the secondary choice to be so minor, why bother with secondary archetypes in the first place!
I'm sorry but i thing that those who think its going to be a minor change, can't deal with the thought that they might have to think about the choices they will have in game.
To those that think it will be close to the base archtype i urge you to watch the pathfinder sessions intrepid does. Ashes afterall is based on a world designed by @Steven Sharif in that system. Then watch at the crazy builds they thought off, and imagine how those builds can be made with the double archtype system.
I know that's what some people are saying. But I'm still holding out hope that it has more of an impact than that...
Honestly if it really makes such a little difference they could definitely introduce it sooner since it would not be that much to chew on...
AKA if a mage/bard and mage/fighter are that indistinguishable from each other, then the secondary system will be 'meh' altogether...
I'm on your side, I'm really hoping the secondary has a much greater impact on the primary choice.
If your plan is to go mage/fighter for the melee, nothing force you to wear a robe and use a staff (although I'd say the pointy hat is a must, fashion tradition oblige) before level 25, you can start early on with heavier armour and a sword, prioritizing the use of your close range spells.
Getting the right stat bonus on your gear might be a little trickier, requiring custom orders from crafters, or, at worse, having non optimal gear, mismatching types for hybrid stats (the hat! The pointy hat!)
So far I don't see why you'd be prevented to be a close range mage.
"What gives" is that this isn't one of the games core features, nor something overly unique to Ashes.
The node system is the only real thing setting Ashes apart from other MMO's.
However, as I have said, they have the node system to go over with players, and that is the thing that distinguishes Ashes from other MMO's.
The class system is not something that distinguishes Ashes from other games. There are many other games where you pick multiple classes to build your specific class. Ashes handles this concept a little differently to other games, but that is about it.
I think perhaps this thread is a result of some people mistakenly thinking the class system is a key aspect of the game.
It is not.
The class system is essentially Ashes ticking a marketing box. More classes are all the rage in marketing MMO's, so saying you have 64 classes when you really have 8 classes each with 8 primary builds is just marketing - as long as you give each build a name you can call it a class.
It should be fairly easy, but have a timer on it (a few hours, honestly).
If it is too hard to switch secondary class (which is to say, to switch build), then people will pick a single build and stick with it. This build will be a PvP focused build, obviously (if you can only have one build in Ashes, it will be a good build for PvP).
Essentially, making it hard to change build will mean fewer builds will exist in the game.
Allowing players to more readily alter their build will mean they can use a build specific to the situation in which they are expecting to find themselves.
If they are going out soloing, they can run a good build for that. If they are going out for a guild war and know they will have a lot of support around them, they can run a build for that. If they are going out to PvE and don't expect any PvP, they can run a different build again.
To me, this sounds like a FAR more interesting game than one where people select a build and never change it.
If it were a matter of secondary class altering a players role, I'd potentially agree that it should be really hard. However, since Steven has said multiple times that this is not the case, that your primary class dictates your role, I don't see any valid reason for putting obstacles in the way of a mage with a DPS build altering their build to a slightly different DPS build.
Since that is all secondary class will do in Ashes, I don't see why there should be too much of a barrier.
The change have to be quite easy, but not able to do often : choices have to matter. But you have to adapt to your group... Even more considering people will begin alone or with just some friends, and then go in a guild or a larger group, where they will find other way to be usefull with main archetype.
As said by nooani, the secundary archetype is not a core feature, that make the game different from others.
Play destrolock and afflilock in wow, you will have a same class but 2 different gameplay. Shards will have different use and generation, also, one is more about direct damage, the other more about dots. It will be this kind of difference between 2 class from the same main archetype IF we consider what is already said about this system.
Augments wont be transformation of class skills. In fighter/mage, the charge skill from fighter wont become an ability to fly, but a blink. instead of running/rushing fast on the target, it will teleport. It remains the same core skill (getting in melee with your target) but with a different impact on gameplay (while blinking, you avoid all area between you and target ! ). Now, we could imagine the ranger will allow the charge to do a snare effect... you have to pass thru potential area of effect but ennemy won't move for a short amount of time.
Also, you speak about range, melee . . .You focus on class, and class skills. BUT we know that any character can equip any armor and any weapon.
You can do a mage with 2 handed sword, and a fighter with a bow.
Also, weapon will also have weapon skills.
You can do fighter/fighter OR fighter/mage OR fighter/ranger all three with bow.
They won't be the same, as said, the augment will affect how their class skill will be usefull.
A fighter/mage won't be a whole new class far from a fighter/fighter. But both will have their own specific strength and flaw. As said, play fighter, see what you like/dislike, and see what pack of augment can improve this. Some people could complain about mobility, other about sustain, or other about damages. This is where chosing well secundary archetype will have impact. it won't create a new character, but it will change strength/flaw of the base character.
To finish my part in this topic (except if there is some question/remark needing me to speak again) :
We know only little about how the game will work, we only saw 3 archetype, and far from a final state. only few weapons, not even one skill weapon. No augment (neither from secundary archetype ... or from race ! )
Alpha 2 should give us far more insight about all these.
I and Nooani defend the state announced now, you want a change. And all we have to argument is what was said already. nothing from experience, from what we saw, what we feeled while playing.
This is i think an interesting question to have, but will be able to have a more interesting and decent discussion in alpha 2
Also, AoC won't beat all other MMORPG, and won't totally revolutionnizes the genre. A large part of mmorpg population will totally dislike this game for a simple reason : never safe from PvP. Long leveling. no teleport to get fast from a point to another. etc etc. All those thing, many here does not want to see in AoC are the reason WoW grew again and again, why FFXIV is such a commercial success, and ESO is also a strong one.
AoC is closer to what MMORPG was before all those things. This is what many here like, and what lot of customers never tried, and will run away from after getting in.