Hot Take: Why waste time on races no one is going to care about?

Talking mostly about Niküa here. We know they are never going it see their architecture in a major node. I have already seen people complain about it and propose wacky systems to make the node architecture more balanced. Tulnar and Empyrean will dominate, and we will see a good amount of humans. Only Dünir if they fix them.

It's like, why not just scrap Niküa? Less than 5% of the player base is going to pick them... The orcs and wood elves are going to be less than 10% for sure(better but not great). They could hold off on these races for now.

Instead of having things come in pairs for no reason. Why not just scrap the races and put stuff in, people like actually later? Or not put them in at launch all together to save budget and development time?

We all know in our heart of hearts that some of these races are a just not going to see much play, and better races could be put in their place after launch.

I would rather see more exciting races down the line in an expansion personally. They could do polls to see what races to add or remove from the game. We don't need nine whole ass races at launch, when realistically only five are going to be hype.

Feel free to tell me how crazy and wrong I am.

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JustVine

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

But with racial skins it might not matter how a character looks. We know a Nikua won't look any different from a Dunir or a Vek if you put the Frost racial skin on them. So that's one thing to consider; in this game the appearance of race might not always matter.

People pick races for different reasons. Some do it for stats, some do it for the lore, some do it for appearance, some just want an alt of every race to experience playing with different kinds of characters. I do agree that if people very rarely make a Nikua because of their looks, then that's a very clear and objective sign that Intrepid screwed up in designing the race. They might still create a Nikua for the other reasons mentioned but that doesn't mean it's not a problem.

One other thing I'll mention that might make this an even bigger issue than similar MMORPGs, is that the developers have put an emphasis on gear adapting in style depending on the character's race. That leather apron on a Dunir might become a grass skirt on a Nikua. (Totally pulled that example out of my rear end but I think that's not far from how they're doing it.) They want it set up so that your gear will identify your race as much as your build, facial features, skin color, and so on. (Again, ignoring skins and costumes that might override those aesthetics to a degree.) So because of that, if a race like the Nikua have an unpopular appearance it might have even more of an impact on how often players choose that race than it might in another game, which makes your concerns even more valid.

I missed this early, and there is a lot of great stuff I did not want to skip over. I have not really considered where racial skins fit into this whole discussion until just now.

I also don't know that racial skins will be sold again? I thought that was a kickstarter thing?

I keep forgetting about racial skins. Mostly because I don't value them at all personally. The idea of having one constant, rigid appearance is not something I want to do, but you are right. If the choice is something with good stats that I hate or good stats and an awesome appearance. I might have to go with the racial skins.

I think you are right about the leather vs grass. That is exactly how I imagine it. This sort of stuff has a hidden benefit. If this is by design, then it's a giga brain move.

What if the races have a locked appearance to motivate cosmetic sales?

On one had that is good for sales, but on the other hand it's some EA games tier shit if done on purpose. This would be a terrible look if Nikua had excellent racials.

I want to be very clear that I am not accusing Intrepid of anything here. I am just asking because it comes to mind.

Still covering the race, so I don't have to go into battle with a fire dragon, might be something I would do if my character was wearing grass armor. Even if it's just cosmetic.

I think this is actually my main reason I am strongly against racial skins. They took really cool possible expansion races. Races that could have fully fleshed out character creators. Races that could have generated future new character creation. Races that many would be highly interested even post launch. And went 'thats too much work, we need money NOW. Let's fish for some early whale money.' This bad decision is definitely going to hamstring them down the road and create plenty of design headaches. Much like their other pseudo p2confuse-if-not-outright-win transmog idea.

I think races need some difference in stats, but I think it should only 'matter' in making a 'niche' class combination work well, rather than restricting most class builds to a race for min maxing.

Which leads back to the main point. Appearance is a part of the rp in rpg. It effects how other people initially react to you and their assumptions about what it might mean. So I actually support there being stats behind the whole thing because it forces the 'I dont see appearance only stats' type people to still have preconceptions. Creates some immersive moments. The problem is when those stats start limiting freedom of build or the game is badly balanced in a way that forces the optimization to make things work in a PvP game.

A race should have to look thematic (I wanted to say good but thats offensive to all the people who want to play ugly) and bring something unique to the table. I just think Nikua do exactly that, even if we take my previous 'promise' argument off the table.

Not only are they a unique take on dwarf, but slippery pirate dwarves Vhaeyne! I for one want to play a dwarf that doesn't realistically sink like a rock in the water and has a physique that accompanies that. I'd rather not feel at risk of drowning when after my loot.

Not only that but think of all the disappointed gnomes that don't have a slot. It's hard to make a gnome race when the four main races were already chosen and gnomes tend to be an inbetween spot in the first place. They don't bring more to the table than Polynesian dwarfs by a mile. Yet they are a decently popular race in DnD. At least anecdotally I have run into quite a few in various scenes over the long years. I don't think Nikua look like gnomes by any stretch but they can probably get close enough to make gnome enthusiasts feel at ease without dedicating an entire race to them.

Vhaeyne

@JustVine

I think I would agree with you a lot more if racial skins and full body cosmetics were not a thing. I liked the importance of appearance for RP as an argument a lot, but cosmetics are such a hard counter to it. Not just the racial skins, but the normal cosmetics. To use your example, I think someone in a full plate cosmetic would swim just fine.

As you know, I have not exactly been a strong ally to the RP community when it comes to using MMORPGs as a vessel for RP. Still, I have seen people RP in Mortal Online 2, so there is no way there will not be RPers in Ashes. That said, I think anyone who is RPing is responsible for their own outfit making sense for RP. I don't think it goes against RP for Ashes to give us more tools for customization. I think the RP community should just be better about policing itself. If you want to be a respected RPer maybe use cosmetics in a way that makes your character's appearance more credible. I am not saying it can't go wrong.

To use what @McMackMuck does not like as an example. If someone has neon wings, I think it's safe to assume you are not going to get any RP out of them and if you do, I don't think you want it.

I also don't think it's right to lock appearance down for the sake of RP. It kinda limits everyone else's fun. As much as I don't like the Santa cosmetic for a few reasons. @Hailee in the other thread is right, if my opinion was the only one taken into consideration it would ruin the mounts and cosmetics they think is fun.

I think I understand where you are coming from, though. I think if Ashes was more RP focused, I would be less interested in the project, but I would concede that your opinion is more in line with the goals of Ashes. Without bringing the target audience debate back, I would like to think that having appearance not be restricted by gameplay is at least the move the most people would get enjoyment out of.

JustVine

Vhaeyne wrote: »

@JustVine

I think I would agree with you a lot more if racial skins and full body cosmetics were not a thing. I liked the importance of appearance for RP as an argument a lot, but cosmetics are such a hard counter to it. Not just the racial skins, but the normal cosmetics. To use your example, I think someone in a full plate cosmetic would swim just fine.

As you know, I have not exactly been a strong ally to the RP community when it comes to using MMORPGs as a vessel for RP. Still, I have seen people RP in Mortal Online 2, so there is no way there will not be RPers in Ashes. That said, I think anyone who is RPing is responsible for their own outfit making sense for RP. I don't think it goes against RP for Ashes to give us more tools for customization. I think the RP community should just be better about policing itself. If you want to be a respected RPer maybe use cosmetics in a way that makes your character's appearance more credible. I am not saying it can't go wrong.

To use what @McMackMuck does not like as an example. If someone has neon wings, I think it's safe to assume you are not going to get any RP out of them and if you do, I don't think you want it.

I also don't think it's right to lock appearance down for the sake of RP. It kinda limits everyone else's fun. As much as I don't like the Santa cosmetic for a few reasons. @Hailee in the other thread is right, if my opinion was the only one taken into consideration it would ruin the mounts and cosmetics they think is fun.

I think I understand where you are coming from, though. I think if Ashes was more RP focused, I would be less interested in the project, but I would concede that your opinion is more in line with the goals of Ashes. Without bringing the target audience debate back, I would like to think that having appearance not be restricted by gameplay is at least the move the most people would get enjoyment out of.

I think we are on the same conclusion but your missing some of what I am saying.

So in order of your response:

I think their approach to full body cosmetics has huge gaping flaws that if not addressed will lead to a fairly bad reputation. And this isn't just from an immersion stand point. If you attack me with something that looks like a dagger but is actually a great axe... Your expectations are violated in a nonsensical manner tgat possibly give you an advantage in decision making. A dwarf in full plate swimming makes no sense physics wise but mildly forgivable otoh you should at least expect that they have a high defense stat right? I understand the desire for freedom in outer appearance but there are some nuances IS seems to be throwing out in favor of monetization creating gameplay problems in the process. It is just that this also negatively effects immersion because form and function meet somewhere in the middle in a good rp system.

So to your next point I agree that rpers should practice what they preach. I just also think there is some value in making function decipherable at a glance. It's just that said glance should be based on the tools that create your function, rather than the specifics of that appearance. Giving players tools that mask that ability to decipher breaks information availability as well as immersion.

Therefore to the rest of your post, yeah I don't want racial appearance to hinder function. We agree here. I just think good game design can manage to give a small stat distinction without making the racial stats mandatory. I fully support costumes that heavily alter appearance. I just think good game design requires you wear an item of the type of gear you are emulating in order to use it. Transmogs should habe very loose boundaries, but still some.

Where do racial skins fall in this? Nowhere as they aren't a significant dampener on function tells (yet.) But I think given your proclivities you should feel cheated at cookie cutter demon options when we could have had a fully customizable demon race as a hype expansion race. If they do put in said race later I think it will dampen the amount of new characters that would otherwise have been created and kept those people interested that much longer in the game to sub.

Ps.I consider you an ally to rpers just not necessarily the type people would think of at first. We need peeps advocating for tools for player driven story and freedom in appearance choice.

Tyranthraxus

CROW3 wrote: »

This reminds me that I haven't seen a Kender in decades, which makes Tasslehoff cry....

They all got a little too curious about Afghanistan in the early 2000's. "Stealing" is a relative term - but you should still probably have at least 1 hand left, when leaving a country.

I got to meet Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman at a book-signing in Utah, once. Nice folks, and the inventors/partial inventors of both Kender and Draconians (it's arguable that draconians *are* lizardmen, just with odd blood and death effects - but I mean Draconians as a people). Kender are arguably the better invention though, per the specifics and depth of their culture. Book-read D&D was often too magic-rule-y, for my tastes, though it's made for a really fun game setting, over the past 30+ years.

Races beyond what's already established for launch should be saved as work for any expansions - and given both the speed of output and sheer amounts of customizations, gear, mounts, etc that Intrepid has been able to produce? I'm not worried in the least that we'll somehow end up short nor with a less-than-satisfying number of races at launch.

Kesthely

The thing is that everyone agrees on is that people have different views of what makes a race appealing, its aesthetics lore or statistics all play a role. Almost everyone agrees that more choice is better. Intrepid choose to pool 2 races together that have similarities. The fact that they name it a highly identifiable rpg name is somewhat unfortunate. If they didn't pool the Dunir and Nikua together as dwarves and advertised one as a dwarf and the other as a gnome like creature, this topic probably wouldn't have been instigated.

Just remember this. Be it for Aesthetics, Lore, or stats, typically the same kind of people pick a particular race. If its due to Aesthetics or Lore, they will probably band together to get more of those aesthetics. With over 100 nodes, if 1% of the player base flocks together, they will be able to make that node their aesthetics. Further more, People who like the Nikua for example, would like a coastal Polynesian vibe. They'll probably migrate towards a coastline with suitable natual looks. That fact makes it more likely that there will be Nikua orientated nodes on the coast. The same fact as some people play elves want to be in woods, Dunir players in mountains, Vaelune players in deserts etc. The lore and aesthetics of those races, will naturally flock those people towards that type of environment, making it more plausible that the archetypical node for that race actually does get developed there.

One thing worth mentioning. In the game we';ve already seen area's and dungeons formed by the remnants of old races. A dunir dungeon for example. So if your afraid that the assets will never be used, don't be. Those asets will be used in Dungeons and locations, regardless of which race builds up the node.

JustVine

Kesthely wrote: »

The thing is that everyone agrees on is that people have different views of what makes a race appealing, its aesthetics lore or statistics all play a role. Almost everyone agrees that more choice is better. Intrepid choose to pool 2 races together that have similarities. The fact that they name it a highly identifiable rpg name is somewhat unfortunate. If they didn't pool the Dunir and Nikua together as dwarves and advertised one as a dwarf and the other as a gnome like creature, this topic probably wouldn't have been instigated.

I'll just point out if they made Nikua gnome I would both be less interested (it skews the body type out of the direction I want) and think it brought less to the table in terms of being a unique take on a race.

Given their usual easy going somewhat migratory depictions and less location based population density in most settings with them, beach bum gnomes are definitely not as strange/unique as a traditionally mountain dwelling smith focused race adapting to a completely different civ style and mode of operation.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I am pretty over the old-school idea that appearance and mechanics should be married. I think the next big MMORPG will be one that follows that philosophy, or already is.

While I get why some people may think this, I think the next big thing in MMO's will be the exact opposite.

I think they will go back to a situation where you look like what you are.

There are a lot of people out there that want this (look no further than people here complaining about a lack of "gear progression").

However, I see this happening in a game where crafted gear is king, and where players can apply a specific look to a crafted item (similar to ESO).

The way I see it playing out is that the material you use would be set (if you are wearing leather made from a cow, it looks like it is made from a cow - if it is from a dragon, it looks like it is from a dragon). However, both can be made in the same shape, with the same threading and stitching, same studs even, all of which can be selected by players.

Same with metals - steel looks like steel, cobalt looks like cobalt etc.

This gives players some agency on appearance, but makes it so that they will always look like what they are. If you are a Wood Elf in leather armor, you will look like a Wood Elf with leather armor. If you do jot wish to look like a Wood Elf in leather armor, do not roll a Wood Elf that will wear leather armor.

While it is true to say some people really care how they look, the bulk of players are happy with anything that looks OK.

However, there are a LOT of players that want what they see in front of them to actually mean something - which is why I think this is the way MMO's will go.

Wyborn

I think it would be hilarious if @daveywavey was the only elf on a server full of dwarfs and Tulnar.

Vhaeyne

@Noaani

I think I may have been speaking too broadly, with "the appearance should not affect game mechanics." I was specking specifically about races.

You, @JustVine, and many others will be relived to learn that I don't think a caster should be able to wear "full plate" and run around as if they were in cloths. I have always been a fan of only being able to use cosmetics in your armor type. [Light, medium, heavy] or [cloth, leather, chain, plate] any system like that works for me and is good. If only plate cosmetics worked on plate, that is not something I consider to be regressive.

I was talking about racial abilities and differences. I would like to use D&D as an example again because I think many people see D&D to be a gold standard in the RPG genre for how things should be. In D&D, it is 100% possible for nearly any race to have any stat or learn how to do anything. If I am rolling an elven Paladin who is going to wear full plate. I may take DEX as my dump stat and just use the plus 2(racial) to bring a 8 up to 10. Then go max STR. In 5e everything caps at 20 anyway, so with high level characters and gear the stat differences are none existent assuming you built your character around a class. Even in older editions, it's possible for the most brilliant and powerful wizard in the world to be an orc. Race has never prevented anybody from doing anything in D&D. This is the sort of thing I am specifically talking about.

It's harder to balance MMORPGs around race. WOW got it so wrong that raiding on Alliance was wiped out. That's why I just said, put the race stuff in "backgrounds" anyone can select. It puts everyone on an equal playing field. There are some things from D&D that don't translate to MMORPGs at all. Rolling stats for instance... It would just become a game of people re-rolling until they got all 18s... So we use fixed stats or point buy in MMORPGs.

It's things like, this class can't be this race or this race can't be this alignment that I think is regressive. WOW, could have solved its faction imbalance years ago by adding a quest that lets you defect to the other side (with some sort of timer limitation, of course). Something I don't think anyone would argue is possible. I think, for the same reason I think having factions is stupid, I think having stats and abilities tied to race is stupid.

I hope this clears things up.

CROW3

Yeah, coming from the D&D ranks I’m a huge proponent of any race, any class, any armor, and any weapon.

2nd edition had race restrictions on some classes (I’m looking at you, Paladin), but these were more like guidelines - and became the root of some interesting (now iconic) characters that broke those rules (as shown by RA Salvatore).

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

@Noaani

I think I may have been speaking too broadly, with "the appearance should not affect game mechanics." I was specking specifically about races.

I get that, but the same holds true of race as it does of items, imo.

A big burly [insert race here] or small nimble [insert other race here] running at you should have a similar level/depth of meaning to it as the items they are wearing.

If you are a small race that barely comes up past my knees, if I hit you square on with a two handed hammer, there is no sane (non-magical) reason as to why you wouldn't be knocked back, or knocked flying even. However, you have a damn good chance of just stepping out of the way of me swinging that two handed hammer.

On the other hand, if you are that big burly race, you could deflect or block that hit with my two handed hammer just fine. What you wouldn't be able to do, however, is get out of the way in time.

I am not a fan of telling players they absolutely can not play the class they want with the race they want. Players should be able to do that, for sure. However, that doesn't mean a small race playing a tank should play and feel exactly the same as a large race playing that same tank class.

Players should be able to look at a character and discern some aspects about their capabilities from their gear, but also some aspects of their capabilities from their race and/or size.

Again it is more about people wanting to be able to understand the world by just looking at it. That really is something people should be able to do, yet MMO's refuse to let players do that simple thing.

Vhaeyne

CROW3 wrote: »

Yeah, coming from the D&D ranks I’m a huge proponent of any race, any class, any armor, and any weapon.

2nd edition had race restrictions on some classes (I’m looking at you, Paladin), but these were more like guidelines - and became the root of some interesting (now iconic) characters that broke those rules (as shown by RA Salvatore).

The only thing I would add to that is any alignment to any race. Paladins should still need to be lawful, but unless something is literally made of out of chaos, then it should be able to be lawful. The same applies for good and evil. I see no reason why a sentient creature made of flesh could not have any alignment.

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

@Noaani

I think I may have been speaking too broadly, with "the appearance should not affect game mechanics." I was specking specifically about races.

I get that, but the same holds true of race as it does of items, imo.

A big burly [insert race here] or small nimble [insert other race here] running at you should have a similar level/depth of meaning to it as the items they are wearing.

If you are a small race that barely comes up past my knees, if I hit you square on with a two handed hammer, there is no sane (non-magical) reason as to why you wouldn't be knocked back, or knocked flying even. However, you have a damn good chance of just stepping out of the way of me swinging that two handed hammer.

On the other hand, if you are that big burly race, you could deflect or block that hit with my two handed hammer just fine. What you wouldn't be able to do, however, is get out of the way in time.

I am not a fan of telling players they absolutely can not play the class they want with the race they want. Players should be able to do that, for sure. However, that doesn't mean a small race playing a tank should play and feel exactly the same as a large race playing that same tank class.

Players should be able to look at a character and discern some aspects about their capabilities from their gear, but also some aspects of their capabilities from their race and/or size.

Again it is more about people wanting to be able to understand the world by just looking at it. That really is something people should be able to do, yet MMO's refuse to let players do that simple thing.

This is not true for most MMORPGs. People tank or do big melee DPS on the smallest races just as hard as they do on the largest races. They do it with one handers and two handers. The only game that is not really like this is Mortal Online 2. If you want that type of immersion, try MO2. It's good.

Atama

Nerror wrote: »

All dwarfs should get 10% extra quest rewards because they are such sexy bastards.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

This is not true for most MMORPGs. People tank or do big melee DPS on the smallest races just as hard as they do on the largest races. They do it with one handers and two handers. The only game that is not really like this is Mortal Online 2. If you want that type of immersion, try MO2. It's good.

Indeed it is not true for most MMO's.

It used to be, generally speaking.

Going back to the 90's and early 2000's, races that made good tanks were three or four times the size as the races that were not good tanks. Races that were nimble looked like they were. You could tell a lot about a character just by their size.

Again, it is this notion of seeing the world in front of you and being able to actually take viable information from what you see.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

This is not true for most MMORPGs. People tank or do big melee DPS on the smallest races just as hard as they do on the largest races. They do it with one handers and two handers. The only game that is not really like this is Mortal Online 2. If you want that type of immersion, try MO2. It's good.

Indeed it is not true for most MMO's.

It used to be, generally speaking.

Going back to the 90's and early 2000's, races that made good tanks were three or four times the size as the races that were not good tanks. Races that were nimble looked like they were. You could tell a lot about a character just by their size.

Again, it is this notion of seeing the world in front of you and being able to actually take viable information from what you see.

It may have used to be that way, but I don't think it's something worth wanting or expecting.

Here is another point on why it's ridiculous to expect the size of a race to matter.

Consider the largest player race in any MMO you like. Then consider the largest boss...

Some of these raid bosses are so damn big, they would be able to throw you like a soft ball across the region. Raid bosses also have to be big. It is a space problem most people don't think about. You need to be able to fit all the melee near the bosses hitbox. To make the hitbox big you have to make the boss big. Most raid bosses are at least twice the height of a player character...

It doesn't matter if your character is 7 feet tall or 3 feet tall in this case. A hit from something that is 14ft tall with a proportional sized weapon is going to destroy you.

Then when it comes to NPC raid bosses most devs never explain why these know races are magically like 15-20 feet tall when you fight them... For the sake of good and balanced gameplay, we just let the bosses and hitbox be what ever size it takes to make the fight better.

Like, I have never seen anyone complain that a human raid boss is 18ft tall when you fight them... I have also never seen one cast "enlarge self" before battle. Which would make sense, but I have never seen it once.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

It may have used to be that way, but I don't think it's something worth wanting or expecting.

In my opinion, what is going to happen is developers are going to realize that players want to be able to understand the games world by just looking at the game world.

This realization will have many repercussions, including as I have mentioned in relation to race and gear.

In terms of raid bosses, this isn't an issue.

It's one of those things that you need to understand the history of. Raid bosses are generally oversized because that is what players expect. Players expect raid bosses to be oversized because that is what they are used to seeing. Players are used to seeing oversized raid bosses because developers developers make them extremely large. Developers started making them so large because they needed the raid boss to be seen in a mass of several hundred players.

That last point that we got to is the key. Raid bosses are the size they are because original EQ raid bosses needed to be oversized, because raids in that game (the game that all raiding in MMO's is directly descended from) were several hundred players large for the games first few years.

All raid bosses have just been made that size because that is the size raid bosses are.

So, in the above game that I expect to see at some stage, it is perfectly feasible that raid bosses will be roughly the same size as player characters.

As to your point about not having seen players cast "enlarge self" before battle, several games have buffs that enlarge the target as a visual representation of the buff. The buff isn't specifically an enlarge buff, but that is the representation that is given to players as opposed to some particle effect or some such.

I think you are kind of missing the point a little though. You are saying "you have never seen" these things, when I am saying they are what I expect to happen in the future.

Do you disagree that there are many, many players out there that want to be able to understand the game world by looking at that game world? Do you think this is a valid thing for people to want in an MMO?

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

In my opinion, what is going to happen is developers are going to realize that players want to be able to understand the games world by just looking at the game world.

This realization will have many repercussions, including as I have mentioned in relation to race and gear.

Wishful thinking at best.

You do remember the game plan is to just show a player's real gear type and grade with a buff with you target them right? It don't sound to me like we are going to get that at all.

In terms of raid bosses, this isn't an issue.

It's one of those things that you need to understand the history of. Raid bosses are generally oversized because that is what players expect. Players expect raid bosses to be oversized because that is what they are used to seeing. Players are used to seeing oversized raid bosses because developers developers make them extremely large. Developers started making them so large because they needed the raid boss to be seen in a mass of several hundred players.

The humanoid raid bosses from races that are not normally big are to solve the problem of not being able to fit all the melee players around the boss without them literally being inside one another. Not because of player expectations. That would be a minor reason at best. The major reason is to give players plenty of room around the boss. Otherwise, it looks more silly having 16 dudes on top of the boss. Even if players can move though each other.

That last point that we got to is the key. Raid bosses are the size they are because original EQ raid bosses needed to be oversized, because raids in that game (the game that all raiding in MMO's is directly descended from) were several hundred players large for the games first few years.

All raid bosses have just been made that size because that is the size raid bosses are.

So, in the above game that I expect to see at some stage, it is perfectly feasible that raid bosses will be roughly the same size as player characters.

Again, this is wishful thinking.

As to your point about not having seen players cast "enlarge self" before battle, several games have buffs that enlarge the target as a visual representation of the buff. The buff isn't specifically an enlarge buff, but that is the representation that is given to players as opposed to some particle effect or some such.

I think you are kind of missing the point a little though. You are saying "you have never seen" these things, when I am saying they are what I expect to happen in the future.

Not players casting "enlarge self" that would not solve anything. I said the bosses could have access to such magic if you wanted to fluff in a lore reason for bosses to be being.

Do you disagree that there are many, many players out there that want to be able to understand the game world by looking at that game world? Do you think this is a valid thing for people to want in an MMO?

I don't think they do. I think players just want fun content. People are willing to put up with a lot of stupid shit if the content is fun. Look at Tera, FFXIV, WOW... everything about those game worlds is nutty compared to something like Mortal Online 2.

I also think "Developers make bosses big because players expect it" is the most hand wavy argument I have every seen you use. It does not address the point at all.

If bosses size don't give you any information about them, why would players? Bet there is going to be a Treant mob that is like 20 ft tall that can be soloed by a single little Nikua.

I am pretty sure that frog ass race in EQ2 can be a tank and tank shit like 10 times its size. I am skeptical that you have ever played a MMORPG where your desire on this topic is the reality of the game.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

The humanoid raid bosses from races that are not normally big are to solve the problem of not being able to fit all the melee players around the boss without them literally being inside one another. Not because of player expectations. That would be a minor reason at best. The major reason is to give players plenty of room around the boss. Otherwise, it looks more silly having 16 dudes on top of the boss. Even if players can move though each other.

As I said, the size of raid bosses is ultimately a result of the number of people on raids.

The melee aspect of it was not a factor for well over a decade - as games didn't have character collision back then. Players being inside one another was not only not really a concern, it was a required aspect of the only strategy to defeat a small number of bosses in early MMO's.

Saying they made raid bosses big to avoid a thing they specifically designed in to some bosses is kind of odd, don't you think?

They were big because early EQ raids were basically a zerg. If you couldn't see the boss above the mass of players around you, you could spend 10 minutes trying to find it (targeting was messy back then).

I also think "Developers make bosses big because players expect it" is the most hand wavy argument I have every seen you use. It does not address the point at all.

But that wasn't my argument.

It's actually kind of like you didn't read it. I was filling in each step along the way, in order to prevent the need for follow up questions.

The end result of it is that EQ developers made raid bosses big because there were several hundred people on their raids, and further raid developers made raid bosses big because that is all anyone knew. If you are making a game (WoW) that has the sole intent of pulling raiders from EQ, then you make your raids similar to the raids in EQ. If the raids in EQ are very large, then the raids in your game (WoW) are very large. Since it isn't Blizzards modus operandi to understand the things they are ripping off, they just made them big because that is what they were copying.

Interestingly, many early EQ2 raids (made by the same developers that made EQ raids, but in a game where raids were capped at 24) were much smaller - at times they were the same size as player characters. This is because there was literally no need to make them bigger.

In a raid of 20 players, there is literally no reason at all for the boss to need to be any bigger than a player character.

In a raid of 500, there is.

I am skeptical that you have ever played a MMORPG where your desire on this topic is the reality of the game.

Once again, I am saying what I expect to see - not in Ashes, but likely in the generation of games that starts development after Ashes launches. While I do not know the specifics of what it would mean (and thus specifics are speculation), what I fully expect to see is a full in game representation of the game world in the game world.

You can be as skeptical of something I have not said as you like.

McMackMuck

@Noaani
I also have a preference for an accurate visual representation (unfortunately that won't be Ashes).

I would love to play an MMORPG where huge player races like Ogres fight alongside and against regular Humans, Dwarves and Elves.

I looked at rock-paper-scissors game mechanics that could make this possible. Attacks that are larger than you are easier to dodge, but parrying is less effective. Attacks that are smaller than you are more difficult to dodge, easier to parry or just take them on your armor. I play-tested it. Large characters beat Medium, Medium beat Small, Small beat Large. There would be a lot to flesh out in greater detail, but I took it as a promising indication that it could be made to work.

Now all I need is a substantial lottery win to turn it into a game.

Noaani

McMackMuck wrote: »

There would be a lot to flesh out in greater detail, but I took it as a promising indication that it could be made to work.

Indeed.

It is amusing to me that someone would consider the idea of a game world being represented in that game world to be an odd notion. To me, that seemed to be the aim of all RPG games of the 90's and 2000's. It is a fairly recent thing that developers seem to have given up on it in favor of cosmetic option - which came at just the time where it would have been possible to actually pull off that full representation.

This is why I think it will be the next thing that MMO's go for. For the first time, the technology is basically there for it to be done. The amount of work it would take to do it is on par with the amount of work that is currently expected for a AAA game. Basically, it is feasible now for the first time.

Fortunately, this means you likely won't need to win a lottery to make this happen.

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