Greetings, glorious testers!
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
However, even if we follow this thought process, if we take a completely random selection of elves and an equally random selection of Tulnar, and we compare the strength and intelligence of each group, it would stand to reason that the random group of Tulnar will generally be stronger, and the random group of Elves will generally be smarter.
This holds true even if the smartest from both groups is a Tulnar, and the strongest from both groups is an Elf.
To me, it seems crazy to argue aesthetics as a reason to pick a race in a game where you can literally look however you want anyway.
You can have players all have access to the same powers and traits in gameplay, while the lore still tells you that on average, the Tulnar are not as intelligent as Elfs. You don't need to further bar certain interesting player choices just to accentuate this.
Especially when there are systems already in the game that run counter to this, like no male and female differences or racial skins. If we did not have those two things, my opinion for Ashes would change.
You "can", but there are some needless penalties for doing so.
Right, they have shown us just enough to prove to me that they don't care how we look as long as they get paid. Which would be fine if they did not leave all the racials in place to devalue, choosing aesthetics over function.
Intrepid Studios are the ones half assing this, not me. I have said it before, I love MO2 and I will value "What you see is what you get" when the developers of the game put systems in their game to reflect that. MO2 puts a lot of thought and effort into make things as they appear as a core value of character creation and the game world. There are no cosmetics in MO2 or planned for MO2.
Ashes says something like: "screw it, male? female? Angel? frost person? We got paid, put what ever stats you like on that... Ohh wait, you want to be a Nikua tank? Well we did not get paid so screw you".
Which is why I have been so vocal about this. The racial restrictions in this game are not supported by its own systems. Instead of innovating and coming up with a replacement system like a person's background or even zodiac sign or something non-visual explaining why people are different. They just lock it behind race appearance for no good reason.
Literally does not give a shit about accurate visual representation. I am telling you right now, they could put those two racial skins in at 100$ a pop, and you would think the server was the set of an underworld movie.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
Using the above example, if you want to be an Elf fighter that haws 14 strength instead of a Tulnar fighter with a strength of 16, have at it.
But it isn't a choice.
Pick your race at character creation for function.
Pick your look in the cash shop for aesthetics.
These two choices are independent of each other - or at least, they can be independent of each other.
I have no problems with choice matters. Which is why I am against things like race, change, name change and having a cost to respec. Only being able to choose one profession. This is all reasonable because we all have the same limitations regardless on how we want to look.
The concern is the guy with the racial skin he likes has a free slate to do whatever he wants. He looks cool no matter what. The guy who likes the race that is the best at his favorite class gets more enjoyment out of his choices than someone who wanted to play orc, but also wanted to be a powerful wizard.
It's like the game is saying: "Fuck you... but only some of you..." Which is very frustrating.
@Noaani
Buying cosmetics is a choice. What is more insulting about the whole situation is this:
Some people already got to choose to opt out of this shitty system.
Basically everyone in the game is subject to shitty limitations except the chads that own these bad boys. They can pick what ever class and race the meta wants them to have, no fucks given. Us plebs have to deal with the shitty reality of min/maxing and the meta of what class is best for what races. Which means if I like one play style, but hate the race that is good at it fuck me.
This is an MMORPG we are talking about here. It is not out of line to assume people are not going to be toxic about some race and class combinations that are not meta. We could just get rid of all of that from the start.
@Dolyem @Noaani
The interesting and meaningful choices do not have to be cosmetic. WOW has been loosing subs all year, learning this lesson with the covanent system. Where the universal consenus has been don't put abilitys in the covanent system because it forces players to choose aestetics they don't like to get benefits they need to be viable in raids.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
Just another fun quote, proving that a cohesive setting or accurate visual representation are not important at all in Ashes.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
I mean, it doesn't prevent people from playing what they want. In the end min/maxers will always do what they do, while people who really want to play a specific race/class combo will play it. I played a Draenei Deathknight in WoW Legion, which was definitely not the meta(humans/orcs/belf), and I still did just fine, more than fine even. I was even ranked in the top 50 DKs in the world for rated battlegrounds at one point. Just because it is ever so slightly less optimal on paper doesn't mean you can't enjoy playing it. And in this game there isn't even class locking, you can play whatever you want to as any race. Slight differences in base stats wont make or break anything. Racial augments are what will be the more prominent difference but as long as they balance them out, it still wont be detrimental to a players gaming experience I promise. And for the most part, players who want to play based on race and class vs min/maxers who focus on efficiency dont usually enjoy each others playstyles anyway. They each tend to gravitate towards like-minded players, which is fine.
The shadowlands covenant design was incredibly unbalanced, and the story was generally sloppy. Regardless, a min/maxer will always choose efficiency over aesthetics, while other players may be happy with sticking to what they find pleasing to look at or learn about. The problem with this system was the fact that there was no choice really. Each covenant was designed with a specific character role in mind with abilities designed to enhance those roles from what I could tell. Blizzard literally designed abilities knowing exactly which roles would be funneled into that choice simply because everything else was completely useless to them. As far as a characters base creation stats and racial traits goes, I believe these are usually minor enough to only matter to the hardcore min/maxxers. Augments may have a bigger impact but those will be tested and hopefully balanced accordingly so that while a choice may have weight, the weights are hard to choose between, in other words having desirable augments across the board despite being different.
I dont know, I guess my point is if people are upset that min/maxxers have more fun due to not caring what their character is, and those people are upset that the race they want to play is slightly less efficient than another at a class they want to play... Thats just their own problem, and I feel they truly don't want the concept of choices that matter when creating a character. Hell replayability will be more fun if you can change it up a little by just changing your race on the next playthrough.
At this point I am tired and rambling, hope I didnt mmix up my thoughts while typing that. Nighty night
As you yourself say, if Intrepid can make money on a cosmetic, they will add it.
I fully expect there to even be some racial cosmetics available in game without needing to go through the store. As I have said before on these forums, the issue with WoW is that it required people to raid to get cosmetics, mounts etc.
This is the issue. Raiding should be for people that enjoy raiding, not people that want an online fashion show.
If you have raiding being for people that enjoy raiding, then a system like what WoW has now works perfectly well.
No worries, it came off coherent enough. It sounds like you are putting a lot of trust into Intrepid to do the one thing that has never been done extremely well. Have a lot of interesting choices and good balance.
I am optimistic about many things with Ashes. I just have never seen a game with a large amount of player choices and good balance. I have seen no choices and good balance. I have seen a few choices and decent balance. Never, a lot of choices and good balance.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
If they are going to keep the racials restrictions in place, then my wallet is wide open.
You realize there are people that enjoy raids and not looking **** at the same time. I am pretty sure if you told raiders they had to put on this "special life vest" to fight raid bosses, people would be pretty annoyed about it.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
If they are going to keep the racials restrictions in place, then my wallet is wide open.
You realize there are people that enjoy raids and not looking stupid at the same time. I am pretty sure if you told raiders they had to put on this "special life vest" to fight bosses, they would be pretty annoyed about it.
Edit: Potential double post because I used a harsh word in first draft.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
If I did come across such a player, I would simply not consider them a raider. A raider in an MMO is - imo - a player that enjoys raid content the most of all things in the game, and so puts that at the forefront of their gaming.
A person that raids is not inherently a raider, any more than a person that floats is not inherently a boat.
Your point about "special life vests" amuses me a little. All I can think of are those stupid guilds where everyone is wearing a guild tabard.
Just sounds like gate keeping, being out of touch, or a combination of both.
People in WOW and FFXIV certainly care how they look, even the high-end world first neck beards tend to find a "glam" or a "transmog" they like and use it until something new they like comes along. It's rare to find someone just wearing their gear as is in WOW or FFXIV.
I bring these games up because they make up their populations make up the majority of MMORPG raiders, and I am very familiar with both games.
The hand full of people who raid in other games that don't care about how they look are in the minority here.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
This is another reason I think the architecture based on race and not background is dumb. They are basically putting an arbitrary choice that effects my gameplay experience, that could have been a FREE seperate option into a PAID option. In other words, if I like the racial architecture more than any free race appearance and there is a racial skin I like, I can just buy a racial skin. Problem solved but at what cost.
Game studios like that rarely have the self control not to be pay to win eventually. They are already close to that line in the first place because I can make a rapier look like a hammer if I pay money. I hope this is just an oversight Steven is not thinking through.
Ashes should stick to one side and apply it everywhere - either tie power to looks or keep power completely separate.
Demanding a payment for the option to keep power and looks separate is pretty lame imo
― Plato
If I am running a PvP guild, I would only have members that really enjoy PvP, and put it at the forefront of their gameplay.
If I am running a crafting guild, I would only have members that really enjoy crafting, and put it at the forefront of their gameplay.
No one considers these to be gatekeeping. So why is it that if I am running a raid guild, and only have guild members that put raiding at the forefront of their gameplay, all of a sudden that is gatekeeping?
Why should there be any expectation for a top end raid guild to do anything other than recruit like-minded players? Why should it be considered out of touch to want to play the game with people that play in the same manner as yourself?
If it is acceptable for literally all other players, why are we giving raiders shit for wanting to do that?
I cant speak for top end group players in FFXIV (you can't just label group content as being raid content and claim to then have raid content).
Top end players in WoW will use a transmog. This is fine, they do it in literally every game.
I am not saying they wont make use of things like this if they are there, I am saying they wont ever sacrifice effectiveness for aesthetics. Most won't even spend time looking for anything aesthetic, and will only use that which they happen to come across.
I've been in guilds that expected their members to raid. I was in a raid-focused guild for years. I remember playing WoW and trying to beat Sindragosa during Wrath of the Lich King and we can't advance because one guy can't reach cover fast enough, and as healers divert attention to save him the rest of the raid doesn't get enough healing, and he dies and it sets off a chain reaction causing us to fail. Multiple times.
In that case, we didn't kick him out; we'd known him for years and he was a friend. It wasn't that he wasn't trying or didn't care, but he needed help. We eventually figured out that he was literally using the arrow keys to turn around and he'd played MMOs like that for years, we just never knew! We helped him change his playstyle and he got better.
If he didn't care, and just didn't try or got defensive and tried to blame everyone else then we'd just stop inviting him to raids. But I don't see a problem if a guild decides to cut someone. Heck, in that same guild doing those WotLK raids, I was playing a rogue and so was another person in our guild and we weren't pulling our weight in terms of DPS. Yet again there was no anger or blame, just requests that we work on it. So both of us geared up a bit better and practiced a lot, cleaned up our rotations, and we even started competing against each other to see who could do more damage. (We had different specs even though we were the same class so didn't copy each other, just tried to outdo each other.) Eventually we went from being liabilities to being assets. It was a fun experience.
You can be supportive while also having expectations for players. It's not fun if one person ruins it for everyone else because they aren't contributing, but how you react to that issue is the difference between being an elitist guild that kills fun, and a group of friends trying to achieve something together.
Some of the best friends I have made in MMO's have been guild members that I have had a friendly DPS rivalry with. Combat trackers being toxic is so foreign to me as literally the best friends I have made in MMO's (and still talk to often) are only friends because of combat trackers and the friendly rivalry they allowed us to undertake.
I have also helped many people out of situations in which they were under performing. I can think of about almost 30 people I have directly helped in such situations over the years - though there is also one person that refused help and so was removed from the raid (and thus guild). He refused to even attempt to get better, and blamed everyone else for his failings. We got our first kill on the boss we had been stuck on for weeks literally the first pull after booting him.
The thing is, if someone in a guild like that said to me they aren't going to spec the way they need to in order to get the performance we need from them, because they don't like the aesthetic of that spec, I can't see them staying in the guild.
Most raid guilds give off the impression of being dicks. However, from someone that has spent more time in such guilds than most, I can say that they are somenof the closest and most supportive guilds in gaming - but you need to want to be there for the sake of raiding, not to get some mount from the final boss.
That is why I am saying, take the choice of effectiveness versus aesthetics out of the game. It benefits no one and just creates a bunch of problems that everyone has to deal with.
When given the choice, people will do what they think is cool and say fuck the lore. This includes Intrepid.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
As I said, Intrepid have basically done this with races.
You pick a race for the stats. You buy a racial skin for aesthetics.
You are saying to not have aesthetics and effects be the same choice. I am agreeing. All I am then saying is that the racial choice you make at character creation is about effectiveness, not aesthetics.
No matter how you look at it, if racial skins exist in Ashes, the choice of race at character creation is not going to ever be an aesthetic choice.
And yet that choice still restricts aesthetics...
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
Barely.
I'm going to assume you are not talking about node architecture here, because that is a stupid thing to make a decision about race on.
So, you are talking about your character.
The problem with this argument is that it completely falls to literally nothing at all the second Intrepid introduce racial skins for the base races - which we both know they will do.
As an "issue", it really isn't worth any thought. Your character is going to be able to look basically how you want it to look, so why get upset over this?
I am not talking about node architecture at all. I have heard some talk about it, but I think the styles I like are popular enough that I don't have to worry they will never be big.
I am very skeptical they will introduce racial skins for base races. I mean, if they do, that is a hard line stance that they would rather sale quality of life features than give them for free. Of course, I would take this over nothing.
I don't know that my character is basically going to be able to look the way I want. That is the problem. If we are talking about FFXIV where race stats are barely in the game, then sure, no worries. If we are talking about WOW where some choices are so good it ruined the faction balance of the game... then I am upset.
We don't know that it's going to be an issue, but the way the game is planned now, it is an issue that is very easy to forecast. I am not yet "Upset" over this issue, but I am concerned enough to give the problem a voice on the forums.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
The only reason I am honestly putting my trust into them is because this is the last MMO for me. If its great, I will be pleasantly surprised. If its broken, then the MMO genre is being laid to rest for me. Either Middle Earth is being saved for me, or I am taking the last ship into the west with a wound that will never fully heal. Theatrics aside, Intrepid has at least shown us some promise, but I admit they have much to prove.
The stakes are higher for you than me then. I have no plans to ever stop playing FFXIV. It's not perfect, but I like what it does enough to keep up with it.
There are other games I would at least try when they come out. I don't think I will ever be "Done" with the MMO genre. I think I am "Done" with WOW though. A lot would have to change to get me back into that dump of a game.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
At least imho new world was put together by people without good mmo dev experience - so that is why it is still a mess, thing is if they are willing to listen to players
There is nothing worse than a company that puts their own philosophy for game rules above the player.
After all the experience that players have is the only truly important thing
― Plato
My prediction is that one of each race will be bought, the other will be in game.
Tulnar, of course, will be given away for free.
They have no reason at all to not do this, and would make money off of it.
Even if they didn't add base races in as racial skins, the very fact that racial skins exist means that at best racial choice is only partially about aesthetics, and you can alter the aesthetics at any time - as opposed to the function of the race, which you can not change.
As such, race in Ashes is at least primarily about the function.
So you went from accurate visual representation is important to it doesn't matter because Intrepid is just going to sale us the customization back anyway.
I guess the good news for me would be that your prediction is an acceptable outcome for me. Maybe Nikua would be used for its racial, if you can just skin something that looks good over it. Still, I think putting these ability packages under "background" or "zodiac" is a more elegant and pro player agency design choice.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
Yes, but at the same time I also went from what I would like to see (accurate visual representation) to what Ashes will have (not accurate visual representation).
The downside to this is that we have already been told you can't alter your race. If race is purely just a visual thing, having a way to change those visual would be the same as changing your race.
It may just be a technicality, but we should expect better from Intrepid than to operate on technicalities.
On the other hand, if race is primarily a stat pack, you can change your skin at will without it being a change to your race.