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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
Given that the majority of guilds (not all, but most) will likely have more than one crafter able to craft particular items, it's easier to ask the group rather than one specific individual. It also gives the lower crafters the chance to assist the guild, rather than it only being up to the one with the highest crafting skill. I know there have been times in-game where one crafter has been in a raid and another one has stepped in to help out instead.
As JustVine said, communicate and interact with your guild!
While I agree with this in principle, as I said just after, if you are in a guild that needs to obfuscate information in order to increase social interaction, you should probably not be in such a shit guild.
If the argument being made here is "just be in a good guild that tries to help each other out", then there is no argument against having some basic crafting information listed in the guild UI.
Absolutely, the last game like this I played, we had a special section on our guild forum where we each listed what we could craft. So, I've no problem with people knowing. The biggest issue is that people usually only ever go to the highest levelled crafter and ignore any others that would have been able to help them, and this puts extra pressure on that high level crafter. If they'd simply put a message in Guild Chat, then they're helped by whoever responds first. I've always found it quicker and simpler to just ask in chat.
While this is indeed a minor issue, it is easily resolved by just making it general guild policy to ask the lowest level crafter that is able to make an item first, and work up from there. Not everyone will be able to make every item (I assume), and not everyone will have the time, but with this as the general policy your guild has, having the information on the guild screen (and even better, able to sort the guild roster by crafting class and level) makes having a policy like this workable.
This is a good policy to have for many reasons. Not burdening the highest level crafter in the guild with everything being one, but spreading the work - and thus coin and experience - around is also a benefit to the guild.
I would have to imagine that trying to maintain a policy like this without that information freely available to everyone in the guild would just be a mammoth clusterfuck.
Sure you can, or you can spend a minute to work it out for yourself if the information is on hand.
An often overlooked part of being a good team member is in doing the things you can do by yourself. Get what team you have to help you out when you need it (creating the item, obtaining some materials), but do the parts that you can do that don't need assistance (working out which crafter to use, obtaining other materials) on your own.
A team member that is using team resources for things that shouldn't need those team resources is not a good team member.
On the other hand, if most of the crafters are busy, the player needing the item will be messaging them all individually, interrupting raids, distracting other players from their pursuits, etc, just cos they're reading names from a list. If they shout out in Guild Chat, anyone who's available can step in, and those who are busy can leave it to those who aren't. If none are available, then one of them can give that player an idea of when they can expect help, rather than leaving them to continue messaging names from the list.
If I thought it would take an intern more than 20 minutes, I'd agree.
But that is literally all I would expect it to take to get the basic info on the guild UI. I mean, if we are going to assume the person in question is that dumb, we should probably add the fact that this person probably can't read anyway. I mean, guild UI's show the in game location of guild members (I have not seen a single game that does not do this), so the player wanting the item made has literally no excuse for this kind of behavior.
If they are dumb enough to do that, it is a function of the idiot, not the system.
If my play time became dominated by gear crafting requests and peer pressure to be the "weapon monkey" (for example) then I would quickly resent the role. It has to be voluntary. Hardcore guilds may require screenshots, but Ashes (applying the same argument to both combat and crafting) has decided to move away from that number driven "DPS or GTFO" mentality for choosing team mates. You can still push for competitive builds through empirical evidence. i.e. You don't need to know what my crafting stats are - ask me to do something to see how reliable, responsive and capable I am. How refreshing to talk to someone instead of just checking their profile and using them like a NPC!
Crafting tasks that are arranged through the guild should be logged by the guild. This would give metrics on member activities, although Guild leaders should decide what it is shared.
If your crafting ability is listed on the guild UI, you are still able to say no. The only difference is you need the testicular fortitude to say no to guildmates directly rather than indirectly. None of this really means anything here. It has literally no connection at all to showing basic information about your crafting ability to members of your guild. I see no need for this at all.
From my perspective, that is a sure sign of who gets booted from the guild.
If you are not willing to let basic information about how you can help people in the guild be known to people within the guild, I want nothing at all to do with you. I will not help you, nor will I trust that you will ever be available to help others - as you have already proven you are unwilling to do that.
I literally see no reason any person worth keeping in a guild would ever obfuscate this information.
It would seem all the people arguing for this to be included are simply not people worth having around.
That is all I need.
Just as I am not arguing for full stats for crafting, just basic information.
That's okay, I don't think we'd be in each other's guilds anyway!
Perhaps I misunderstood. If it's just an artisan skill name, then I'm happy with that.
I'm more for communicating in Discord Guild chat, I should have mentioned that clearly in my post.
My guild already know what race, class and artisan role I currently intend to be (at this point in time).
We have channels set up to post that info., voluntarily.
It's sparked some interesting preliminary discussions about collaboration and areas where we can promote each other and the interests of the guild, alliances, etc., as you might expect.
If a member needs help with _anything_ just ask in chat - if we can sort it internally or via our network of contacts then we will hook you up with the right person. That list of contacts will soon grow far bigger than a single guild in-game guild crafting page and any craft skill level data will soon be out of date when stored in an external spreadsheet. No one wants the full time job of keeping a spreadsheet current and chasing players or guilds for information, so just keep it simple - in-game name, in-game guild, discord name, services offered. When required, contact the relevant person from the list, explain the job to see if they are capable and willing to help, or if they want removing from the list. This is how I see it working.
It seems to me that thinking on a single in-game Guild level is rather blinkered/short sighted as to how discord diplomacy will link thousands of players across many guilds in non-aggression trade pacts for mutual benefit, eventually covering large chunks of a server.
We could both be wrong about how we see it working. Only time will tell, but by then we will probably have other things we care about more.
Isn't this a good reason to make this information available in game.
Instead of having to dive through a list, compare it to who is online, and reach out to see if they can make what you want, wouldn't it be better to do this through the game, which already has this info. No need to keep a spreadsheet updated, you can look through your guild list, maybe it provides features to filter on profession and level. You could also go through their crafting menu and view everything they can craft.
If people really want to hide this info then they can but relying on third parties to keep track of this seems a little silly when crafting is supposed to be a big part of the game.
I also see this as a way for crafters to show off their achievements if they wish.
Just put gear score in there and call it good.
So if they really strongly feel a need to do the work to make this feature, putting in a little more to make it toggle would be an acceptable compromise for me.
The difference i think is that this information is necessary. If i need a particular item crafted, then i'll have to find out if you are able to craft it one way or another.
Are people not supposed to be able to ask for a specific item? If i have the materials for an item, is it elitist for me to not give them to a crafter that can't make the item i want? Should i just give the materials to a crafter and be happy with whatever i get back?
Instead of having to ask in chat or bug you because you are on a list and might be able to make, wouldn't be easier for people to just look at what a crafter can make, ideally see the materials required as well, and ask for that item?
Don't rely on Discord.
Discord as a company has been losing money for years. They are trying to sell it off, and have been for a while. their talks to sell to Microsoft have ended, but that doesn't mean they won't sell to someone, or put themselves up for an IPO.
It is worth noting that the developers that work on Discord get paid very little for their work, but get a percentage of the proceeds from a sale or IPO. As such, this happening is straight up inevitable.
Basically, you can not rely on Discord continuing to function in the way it functions today. Making plans that rely on it is short sighted, imo. If they sell to a larger company, Discord could well go the way of Skype. If they go for an IPO, they could well go the way of EA, charging people to use it.
If I were making a game right now, I would make it with every tool I could built in to the game, not relying on third party tools like Discord that could be bought or sold at a moments notice.
I still fail to see what this has to do with spying.
Crafting levels will provide insights into what type of gear a guild will be outfitted with. Etc.
Also, can you elaborate on why you don’t want to allow guilds (upon creation) of the option:
1.). Requiring skill visibility.
2.). Leaving it up to the player
Among options to make it a tiered visibility system. With this in place what do you care if other guilds have “FU guild players” in their midst? Shouldn’t impact you at all
When it comes to your class, they don't necessarily need a specific skill load out to play that role. If you are looking for a healer and someone says they can heal, you don't need to dig into the details.
When it comes to crafting, you are usually looking for a specific item/skill. Knowing their artisan class doesn't mean a lot. If you can't check their recipes that means you need to bug everyone who could possibly know it to find the person who can make what you are looking for. To me, this is unnecessary friction between people who want to get an item crafted and crafters.
As for the combat argument, if they do craft gear, you might be able to guess a little but unless the person only picks up recipes for themself, it's pretty safe to say that it doesn't mean that much. I don't think it's good to compare having a rough idea of the stats the might have to knowing someones spells as that, in most cases, would tell you exactly how they fight.
agreed
Again, it is a feature that literally every MMO I have ever played has had. I am REALLY curious to know which MMO's it is that you have played.
Even if we assume this isn't standard, it isn't exactly a useful tool for spying. In order for it to be useful for spying, there needs to be some information that can't be obtained more easily via other methods. I mean, a spy isn't going to spend days trying to get a piece of information that someone would just give them freely if asked.
So, to that end, when was the last time your guild ran a raid where someone in your guild didn't know there was a raid happening? Chances are, if the spy is any good, they are on that raid anyway.
So no, I straight up do not see how adding basic crafting information to the guild UI could in any way be used for spying. You're new here, so probably don't know this. I do not argue things from the perspective of what *I* want, I argue them from the perspective of what I think would be best for the game as a whole.
As such, making a point like the above is absurd. I don't care if it affects me or not, as that is not the reasoning behind my opinion. My reasoning is that a games systems dictate player behavior, so you want to detail those systems in a way that would dictate the player behavior that is best for the game.
Having strong guild connections is good for any MMO. In my experience, people are more likely to leave a PvP MMO due to their guild failing than they are due to the game failing.
As such, you want a guild system and guild UI that encourages people to work as a guild.
Having basic information about guild members (class, profession, levels of each, general location, time since last online) creates better communities than if all of that information was obfuscated.
I've still yet to see a reason as to why this should be hidden, or even why there should be an option to hide it. The spying angle is a total non-starter so far. I am still waiting to for @JustVine to elaborate on that, though I am not expecting much there at all.
The idea of "but I might have someone ask me to make something for them while I am on a raid" is just stupid. You might have that anyway, having information about your crafting class on the guild UI would make this neither more nor less likely to happen. The person that bought this up should be ashamed of them self, honestly. They are clearly just stretching for reason.
As far as I am concerned, the real reason some people are against this is due to the lack of privacy they feel in real life, and then wanting to prevent this in an MMO. That is why the only reasons given are irrational - the reasons were concocted after the decision to oppose the idea was made (this part is blatantly obvious).
And the real kicker is you retract your previous points when it doesn’t suit you. Pretty comical actually, especially when you try and take the high road of “I want what’s best for the game”. Is there anyone who doesn’t? What a silly tangent to go on.
Anywho, I’m just glad the vast majority here seem to be of the camp have it toggle-able and leave it at that. Personally I think it’s reasonable to leave it up to the guild, but plain toggle-able is cool too.
You have not yet presented any points that need deconstructing.
I have only seen two points against this. The first is some inexplicable notion of it aiding spy - but with no real description of how this would actually allow a spy to gain information they otherwise would not.
The second is that you may get asked to make something while raiding, but there is no suggestion made that this may happen more with this information than without it.
I'd be happy to deconstruct any other points you with to make on this - but you have to make those points first.
1.) Guild requires visible skills
2.) Guild does not require visible skills
Information a spy would have than not:
1.) Crafting ability of rival guild. What gear can they make, how equipped are they going to be when we make our move?
2.) Location at any given time (this is the point you retracted when it didn’t suit)
Tasked with something while raiding:
1.) It stands to reason seeing stats will cultivate a culture where you directly reach out to players and not to a dedicated guild channel. For someone who’s such a proponent for guild cooperation that seems like a strange one to fight for.
2.) If point 2. of spying is incorrect, you won’t be able to see if people are busy or not. Bit of a paradox there
To be clear, the main thing I want you to address is the first paragraph on this comment. Why shouldn’t it be up to the guilds? I’ve been trying to ask that question for at least a couple pages