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Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.

People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players.

Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.
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Comments

  • CawwCaww Member
    Casuals will have to learn when not to fight and just let the other player take a corruption hit.
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Caww wrote: »
    Casuals will have to learn when not to fight and just let the other player take a corruption hit.

    This sounds like horrible game design. You are joking, right?
  • CawwCaww Member
    edited February 25
    No.... that's what the corruption is meant to reduce.


    P.S. I'm a real casual and poor PvP player but I'm still gonna try to make a go of it.
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Caww wrote: »
    No.... that's what the corruption is meant to reduce

    So your suggestion is to ask casuals to not play the game? That's exactly my point. They will stop playing. Reducing the amount of power that gear provides still means that you can be 20-30% stronger than someone with worse gear.
  • CawwCaww Member
    PvX will not be for everybody - the whole "carebear" thing is an issue but this game has its goals and it either fits your style or not.
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Caww wrote: »
    PvX will not be for everybody - the whole "carebear" thing is an issue but this game has its goals and it either fits your style or not.

    I am not advocating for carebears... please read the post. I am just stating that reducing the power that gear provides will allow casuals to compete (somewhat) without causing them to quit when they lose to hardcore players over and over without ever standing a chance. You understand that the game will not survive if all casuals are alienated, right?
  • CawwCaww Member
    sorry - but that still sounds a little like carebear thinking, player power is always gonna be a dev concern and I trust AoC will balance as best as possible
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Caww wrote: »
    sorry - but that still sounds a little like carebear thinking, player power is always gonna be a dev concern and I trust AoC will balance as best as possible

    AoC offers so many avenues for hardcore players to excel. From node leadership to gear progression. All I am saying is that gear power should be kept in check and only increase a character's power by about 20-30% at most (which is still very significant). You just don't like that this gives casuals a fighting chance? Why? Why is that such a bad thing? It's far from carebear.
  • CawwCaww Member
    I'm not against helping the noob/casual player, I'll be one myself. The gear/skill balance ratio will probably be adjusted through out the entire games cycle.
  • TalentsTalents Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited February 25
    VmanGman wrote: »

    People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase.

    Disagree. It's one of the main reasons I dislike ARPGs. I hate working for ages to get a new piece of gear only for it to provide an almost unrecognisable stat boost.
    nI17Ea4.png
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »

    People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase.

    Disagree. It's one of the main reasons I dislike ARPGs. I hate working for ages to get a new piece of gear only for it to provide an almost unrecognisable stat boost.

    When your long term goal is 20-30% power over another player, you don't feel like your work is validated? 20-30% is a lot. Let skill play a part in a fight as well. If gear is too meaningful, then skill is meaningless.
  • TalentsTalents Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited February 25
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »

    People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase.

    Disagree. It's one of the main reasons I dislike ARPGs. I hate working for ages to get a new piece of gear only for it to provide an almost unrecognisable stat boost.

    When your long term goal is 20-30% power over another player, you don't feel like your work is validated?

    Not when I can't tell the difference in my power when I get a new item. I should be able to get a new piece of gear and instantly feel that I've gotten stronger, not something like "Grats, you went from a piece of gear with 102 strength and 5.2% crit chance to 104 strength and 5.3% crit chance".
    nI17Ea4.png
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »

    People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase.

    Disagree. It's one of the main reasons I dislike ARPGs. I hate working for ages to get a new piece of gear only for it to provide an almost unrecognisable stat boost.

    When your long term goal is 20-30% power over another player, you don't feel like your work is validated?

    Not when I can't tell the difference in my power when I get a new item. I should be able to get a new piece of gear and instantly feel that I've gotten stronger, not something like "Grats, you went from a piece of gear with 102 strength and 5.2% crit chance to 104 strength and 5.3% crit chance".

    That's not what I'm saying either. 20-30% power increase from gear would result in a lot more than just 0.1% crit chance per item... Please read and understand the post first. Don't just grab onto the first thing you think that you don't like.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I agree that we need to lower the vertical scaling so more people can be competitive but it's hard to interpret what you mean by the statement talents is quoting. I agree that i don't want to grind through 10 tiers of gear for a 30%.
    smallerLizard.jpg
  • TalentsTalents Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited February 25
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »

    People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase.

    Disagree. It's one of the main reasons I dislike ARPGs. I hate working for ages to get a new piece of gear only for it to provide an almost unrecognisable stat boost.

    When your long term goal is 20-30% power over another player, you don't feel like your work is validated?

    Not when I can't tell the difference in my power when I get a new item. I should be able to get a new piece of gear and instantly feel that I've gotten stronger, not something like "Grats, you went from a piece of gear with 102 strength and 5.2% crit chance to 104 strength and 5.3% crit chance".

    That's not what I'm saying either. 20-30% power increase from gear would result in a lot more than just 0.1% crit chance per item... Please read and understand the post first. Don't just grab onto the first thing you think that you don't like.

    There are 16 gear slots in the game which means it would be quite plausible to get only 0.1/0.2% crit chance increase from a gear piece upgrade in your 20-30% gear power scenario.
    nI17Ea4.png
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I agree that we need to lower the vertical scaling so more people can be competitive but it's hard to interpret what you mean by the statement talents is quoting. I agree that i don't want to grind through 10 tiers of gear for a 30%.

    Why are there 10 tiers of gear?
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »

    People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase.

    Disagree. It's one of the main reasons I dislike ARPGs. I hate working for ages to get a new piece of gear only for it to provide an almost unrecognisable stat boost.

    When your long term goal is 20-30% power over another player, you don't feel like your work is validated?

    Not when I can't tell the difference in my power when I get a new item. I should be able to get a new piece of gear and instantly feel that I've gotten stronger, not something like "Grats, you went from a piece of gear with 102 strength and 5.2% crit chance to 104 strength and 5.3% crit chance".

    That's not what I'm saying either. 20-30% power increase from gear would result in a lot more than just 0.1% crit chance per item... Please read and understand the post first. Don't just grab onto the first thing you think that you don't like.

    There are 16 gear slots in the game which means it would be quite plausible to get only 0.1/0.2% crit chance increase from a gear piece upgrade in your 20-30% gear power scenario.

    When each item increases your power by about 1-2%, you will soon feel the difference. You understand that if gear is too meaningful, then skill is meaningless, right?
  • TalentsTalents Member, Intrepid Pack
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »

    People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase.

    Disagree. It's one of the main reasons I dislike ARPGs. I hate working for ages to get a new piece of gear only for it to provide an almost unrecognisable stat boost.

    When your long term goal is 20-30% power over another player, you don't feel like your work is validated?

    Not when I can't tell the difference in my power when I get a new item. I should be able to get a new piece of gear and instantly feel that I've gotten stronger, not something like "Grats, you went from a piece of gear with 102 strength and 5.2% crit chance to 104 strength and 5.3% crit chance".

    That's not what I'm saying either. 20-30% power increase from gear would result in a lot more than just 0.1% crit chance per item... Please read and understand the post first. Don't just grab onto the first thing you think that you don't like.

    There are 16 gear slots in the game which means it would be quite plausible to get only 0.1/0.2% crit chance increase from a gear piece upgrade in your 20-30% gear power scenario.

    When each item increases your power by about 1-2%, you will soon feel the difference. You understand that if gear is too meaningful, then skill is meaningless, right?

    Yes, and I don't see the problem with that. If someone eclipses someone in gear by multiple tiers then that should be insurmountable, just like in League of Legends you're rarely if ever gonna beat someone in a 1v1 that has multiple items over you.
    nI17Ea4.png
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited February 25
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »

    People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase.

    Disagree. It's one of the main reasons I dislike ARPGs. I hate working for ages to get a new piece of gear only for it to provide an almost unrecognisable stat boost.

    When your long term goal is 20-30% power over another player, you don't feel like your work is validated?

    Not when I can't tell the difference in my power when I get a new item. I should be able to get a new piece of gear and instantly feel that I've gotten stronger, not something like "Grats, you went from a piece of gear with 102 strength and 5.2% crit chance to 104 strength and 5.3% crit chance".

    That's not what I'm saying either. 20-30% power increase from gear would result in a lot more than just 0.1% crit chance per item... Please read and understand the post first. Don't just grab onto the first thing you think that you don't like.

    There are 16 gear slots in the game which means it would be quite plausible to get only 0.1/0.2% crit chance increase from a gear piece upgrade in your 20-30% gear power scenario.

    When each item increases your power by about 1-2%, you will soon feel the difference. You understand that if gear is too meaningful, then skill is meaningless, right?

    Yes, and I don't see the problem with that. If someone eclipses someone in gear by multiple tiers then that should be insurmountable, just like in League of Legends you're rarely if ever gonna beat someone in a 1v1 that has multiple items over you.

    League and a MMO are very different. In league that difference happens in a matter of minutes due to your or your team's misplay. In a MMO this happens over months due to the other person simply having more free time than you... that's a very different design situation.

    What you're describing will absolutely cause casuals to quit. The game will not do well or even survive if casuals quit. 20-30% of power increase is very significant and will still give the person with more time a significant advantage. Don't be afraid to allow your skill to overcome your opponent as opposed to how much free time you have irl to be the determining factor in who wins a fight and who loses. You are effectively arguing that you want the amount of free time that you have to be the determining factor in how strong you are in the game instead of your skill being that determining factor.

    Edit: word
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited February 25
    VmanGman wrote: »
    I agree that we need to lower the vertical scaling so more people can be competitive but it's hard to interpret what you mean by the statement talents is quoting. I agree that i don't want to grind through 10 tiers of gear for a 30%.

    Why are there 10 tiers of gear?

    It's an exaggeration. Just illustrating the idea of having a long grind to get that 30% where each step is miniscule and unnoticable would feel bad.
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Talents wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »

    People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase.

    Disagree. It's one of the main reasons I dislike ARPGs. I hate working for ages to get a new piece of gear only for it to provide an almost unrecognisable stat boost.

    When your long term goal is 20-30% power over another player, you don't feel like your work is validated?

    Not when I can't tell the difference in my power when I get a new item. I should be able to get a new piece of gear and instantly feel that I've gotten stronger, not something like "Grats, you went from a piece of gear with 102 strength and 5.2% crit chance to 104 strength and 5.3% crit chance".

    That's not what I'm saying either. 20-30% power increase from gear would result in a lot more than just 0.1% crit chance per item... Please read and understand the post first. Don't just grab onto the first thing you think that you don't like.

    There are 16 gear slots in the game which means it would be quite plausible to get only 0.1/0.2% crit chance increase from a gear piece upgrade in your 20-30% gear power scenario.

    But you aren't just getting crit with each piece, you are getting little bits of other stats as well.

    Would it feel better if stats were delegated to different pieces so you see a more significant increase in the stat(s) that is associated with?

    You would get your base weapon damage from your weapon. Maybe you only get defensive stats from armor with more of the stats coming from significant pieces like the chest, helm, and legs.

    For things like crit, maybe it's only on jewelry so when you get that crit ring, you see a decent bump in crit.
    smallerLizard.jpg
  • TalentsTalents Member, Intrepid Pack

    But you aren't just getting crit with each piece, you are getting little bits of other stats as well.

    Would it feel better if stats were delegated to different pieces so you see a more significant increase in the stat(s) that is associated with?

    You would get your base weapon damage from your weapon. Maybe you only get defensive stats from armor with more of the stats coming from significant pieces like the chest, helm, and legs. When you get a chest piece, you know you are getting a decent bump.

    I know you aren't, that's why in my original example I also said strength, it's just that the person I replied to only specified the crit chance.
    nI17Ea4.png
  • I like your point, gear should give small meaningful bonuses but not extreme ones. However someone in standard armor should not be able to fight someone in all epic armor with enchantments. However its also important that someone in uncommon armor can fight someone in a tier above armor and have a solid chance. The armor should be effective and meaningful but definitely not the end all be all beccause your right the average player should still be useful in an 8v8 where the enemy has higher tier armor, otherwise the lower leveled players will not get to enjoy the game until they reach max.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I mean...
    Ashes is balanced for 8-person groups. Seems easy enough for casual-time players to be in a group with hardcore-time players. Also, seems easy enough for them to have helpful friends who are hardcore-time players... even if they aren't all in a formal group.

    In Ashes, power will likely be determined by Level, points in Passive Skills, points in Active Skills, points in Weapon Skills, Armor, Weapon(s), Augments and Enchantments.

    Casual-time players can still make friends with other citizens who can help them acquire the gear they need.
    I don't think we should be worried about gear overpowering the other factors that provide characters with power - until we play/test and determine that the devs need to re-balance their design.
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Dygz wrote: »
    I mean...
    Ashes is balanced for 8-person groups. Seems easy enough for casual-time players to be in a group with hardcore-time players. Also, seems easy enough for them to have helpful friends who are hardcore-time players... even if they aren't all in a formal group.

    In Ashes, power will likely be determined by Level, points in Passive Skills, points in Active Skills, points in Weapon Skills, Armor, Weapon(s), Augments and Enchantments.

    Casual-time players can still make friends with other citizens who can help them acquire the gear they need.
    I don't think we should be worried about gear overpowering the other factors that provide characters with power - until we play/test and determine that the devs need to re-balance their design.

    I assume that you've played MMOs before. You are aware that most hardcore players will play with other hardcore players... that's just the nature of the genre and the community. Casuals will not be easily welcomed into hardcore 8 man groups. So your suggestion does not work.

    My main point is that by now we have learned that MMORPGs do not survive without casuals. Or even if they survive they will not have much content added because they don't have the funds because they don't have enough players to provide those funds. And I assure you that in a game like AoC, casuals will quit if they keep losing over and over to people who no life the game.

    20-30% power increase is still very significant and it allows casuals to compete. Don't let your desire (not referring to you specifically Dygz) to have your amount of free time determine your success more than your skill at the expense of the casual player base and by extension the game's health. Once again, I am not advocating for people with more time to not be rewarded for their progress... I'm merely stating that they should not be rewarded so much that the casuals do not stand a chance.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited February 25
    Most hardcore-challenge players will play with hardcore-challenge players. True.

    I'm a hardcore-time player. The hardcore-time players I typically group with are fine with allowing casual-time players to drop in. But, it's not just about hardcore-time groups allowing in casual-time players.
    It's also about hardcore-time players choosing to spend some of their time in casual-time groups.


    In previous MMORPGs, what makes it difficult for casual-time players to continue playing with hardcore-time players is that hardcore-time players quickly out level the casual-time players and move away to higher level regions.

    In Ashes, we will be returning to to our home Nodes and we will know where people live. Housing is physical, rather than instanced, especially for hardcore-time people... which means casual-time players will know where to find the hardcore-time players who play when they're online.
    Also, the Node Community will be stronger because citizens of the Node will be helping each other progress the Node in a variety of ways.

    The point I don't understand is why you assume that casual-time players will "keep losing over and over to people who no-life the game".
    If you're talking about getting ganked by people with better gear, then, caww is correct: You just refuse to fight back. If Corruption works as it's supposed to, the Corruption hit should be enough of a deterrent that you take that one death (no different than being killed by a mob) and keep going about your business.
    If people quit because they keep dying over and over again, it will be because Corruption is not working as promised.

    We should expect that the gap in gearscore will reflect the gap in level, such that higher gearscore gap results in higher Corruption score. Which, now that I think of it, that's really what the request should be - ensure that gearscore gap is a factor of Corruption score.

    I think everyone already agrees that hardcore-time players should not be rewarded so much that casuals do not stand a chance. The devs agree with that as well.
    I still don't understand why you are expecting gear to be the primary factor there - or why gearscore would be so heavily tied to play time such that casual-time players need to be worried about that.
  • GoalidGoalid Member, Alpha One, Adventurer

    VmanGman wrote: »
    Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.

    What will help the health of the game is if its systems are enjoyable. Is that grind for better gear fun? Not whether the guy who plays 4 hours a week stands a chance in open world pvp against a player who plays 40 hours a week. Gear differences matter for the health of the economy, progression of raid difficulty, etc. You shouldn't be able to bring 100 green geared people to a castle siege and stand a chance.
    bRVL6TR.png


  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited February 25
    Dygz wrote: »
    In previous MMORPGs, what makes it difficult for casual-time players to continue playing with hardcore-time players is that hardcore-time players quickly out level the casual-time players and move away to higher level regions.

    In Ashes, we will be returning to to our home Nodes and we will know where people live. Housing is physical, rather than instanced, especially for hardcore-time people... which means casual-time players will know where to find the hardcore-time players who play when they're online.
    Also, the Node Community will be stronger because citizens of the Node will be helping each other progress the Node in a variety of ways.

    I disagree that this is how things will play out. Most hardcore players will only invite other hardcore players to go do the content that rewards the best gear. It's how MMOs work
    Dygz wrote: »
    The point I don't understand is why you assume that casual-time players will "keep losing over and over to people who no-life the game".
    If you're talking about getting ganked by people with better gear, then, caww is correct: You just refuse to fight back. If Corruption works as it's supposed to, the Corruption hit should be enough of a deterrent that you take that one death (no different than being killed by a mob) and keep going about your business.
    If people quit because they keep dying over and over again, it will be because Corruption is not working as promised.

    So your game design philosophy is to force casual players to not participate in PvP? You're saying that because casual players know that they WILL lose, they need to just sit there and take a beating. That sounds like awful game design.


    Dygz wrote: »
    I still don't understand why you are expecting gear to be the primary factor there - or why gearscore would be so heavily tied to play time such that casual-time players need to be worried about that.

    It's very clear that AoC is a game where time investment will result in better gear. Everything from the open world dungeons to most items being purchasable with gold and not soulbound leads to more time investment resulting in better gear.

    Edit: word
  • Happymeal2415Happymeal2415 Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 25
    I mean we could quote Steven again and say this game is not for everyone. This game isn't being made to spoon feed people good characters. Time investment matters.
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I mean we could quote Steven again and say this game is not for everyone. This game isn't being made to spoon feed people good characters. Time investment matters.

    When did I say that the game needs to be made to spoon feed people? When did I say that the game needs to be for everyone?

    You understand that the game will not survive or have very few funds for more content without casuals, right?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Again, hardcore-challenge players tend only play with hardcore-challenge players. True.
    It's not particularly true for hardcore-time players.

    Ashes is a game where time investment can result in better gear. Sure.
    That didn't really clear up your point.
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