I mentioned it in one of the previous posts. To me, it seems easier to balance around predesigned sets that have a variety of pros+cons combos rather than having each and every gear piece have it's own combo that could then be combined with 7 more gear piece combos and you might get some imbalanced boost to whatever stat.
Yeah, but this is the point of an MMORPG. Giving players choices.
It would also be easier to give players specific set class kits with no options- like a MOBA - but that is not what MMO's are about.
And it also either requires devs to randomize those potential combos or design unique ones for each piece of gear. And then on top of that, you have the crafting dials that could boost said combos even higher.
Well, yeah the developers need to do their job.
Keep in mind, I am speaking from the perspective of a game that adds expansions every year. Each expansion adds hundreds of items, many of which have new stats and/or effects.
The argument that the developers would have to do some work is not a valid reason to remove player choice.
I'm not arguing against negative effects - some gear having negative effects is a fairly well established notion. I am saying there is literally no reason why gear sets should be the meta, rather than individual pieces of gear.
If devs want to make the game more casual friendly they should look at the open world PvP rules. I am not saying they should, but making gear less valueable does not help because they will be ganked anyway.
Being ganked once in a while is bad?
For that there is the corruption system and bounty hunters.
If I join the game late, I will stick near more experienced players. I'll avoid traveling alone if I have valuable stuff on me.
Veterans will not earn much looting a noob anyway.
The Eve Online advice for everybody is:
Don't fly ships you do not afford to lose.
Even in HighSec you was not really safe but only the very rich had reason to be afraid.
I think very rich AoC players should pay for protection. We should not worry about them
I did not say it is bad, and I am personally fine with the planned system. However, I am just saying that IF the developers want the game to become more casual friendly, then open world PvP is the thing which pushes some casual players away. Some players do not want to PvP at all or they want it to be 100% consensual, and you cannot change that mindset to match with yours by thinking it from your perspective. 😉
I see. You are right. I cannot change some peoples's point of view. Sometime they even understand my pov but they like to debate
I am sure that some people understands and I understand your pov as well. I have Albion Online background and therefore, something similar with your Eve experience. I do not mind if there would be less restrictive open world PvP rules, however, I am also aware that this is not the direction where devs want to take the game. Even the open world PvP will be significantly restricted with the corruption system it will still be enough to turn away some casual players, especially PvE centric people. Those who dislikes to PvP in any form can easily pass even they would otherwise be interested of the game. And that mind set is really hard or even impossible to change.
I wonder if players are really part of an extreme PvE / PvP category.
Could it be that we see on forums the vocal extremes while those who can do both are silent?
Some are but of course there is the middle ground as well. And for PvE centric players the worst kind of PvP is nonconsensual so basically being a target for gankers. This is not ofc AoC special rather the usual case in any MMORPG where open world PvP is involved. Anyway, it is getting enough off topic so better stop here. 😅
I mean...
Ashes is balanced for 8-person groups. Seems easy enough for casual-time players to be in a group with hardcore-time players. Also, seems easy enough for them to have helpful friends who are hardcore-time players... even if they aren't all in a formal group.
In Ashes, power will likely be determined by Level, points in Passive Skills, points in Active Skills, points in Weapon Skills, Armor, Weapon(s), Augments and Enchantments.
Casual-time players can still make friends with other citizens who can help them acquire the gear they need.
I don't think we should be worried about gear overpowering the other factors that provide characters with power - until we play/test and determine that the devs need to re-balance their design.
There is alot of good conversation going on around the OP of this, but this right here really highlights my feeling on this topic.
Yes there needs to be a "balance" for the Casual gamer ( such as myself) but also there needs to be a meaningful reason for grinding gear. It should feel like the item you get gives you that boost and you as a player should learn to boost your skill with it. People who have more time in game should not be punished for the casual player and the casual player should not be punished for being casual. How do we fix that?
Well for the people who have time AKA Hardcore player they have the advantage out the gate of having the time to grind and get loot and such. So yes they will be able to crush a casual player 1v1 that just makes sense to me. What also needs to be taken into account is hardcore players will not always be looking at casuals to attack them, they want a challenge to their skills and gear and will seek like minded encounters.
Now Casual players might seem at a disadvantage if you only factor in time, and you would be right. however a casual player has a lot more to help boost them in sever. Know your skills invest time in learning your class, gear yourself as best you can and know how to use to world to your advantage if an when someone "better" than you attacks. More over casuals can find other people of like minds to hang with/ run with. For example the guild i made is based around casual to hardcore players who all work together. This is an option casual should look to. Also we have started alliances with other casual guilds to help boost our "numbers" in sever and chances of having backup as needed. This also helps the casual person get the ability to farm/ grind for better gear.
We need to be more creative in finding solutions to bridging the gap between a hardcore player base and casuals. This has to happen on Dev side and the Community side for a Balance to be found. We can not just say hardcore players need to be "nerfed" because they have more time than casual and therefore will ruin the game for them. Casuals need to invest their time also into more than just grinding or questing. Everyone should experience the full game and what it has to offer. Alliances, corruption flagging, Bounty hunting, talk to people, a casual might be the best crafter in the sever and negotiates peace with the biggest PVP guild for free passage and protection all based on trade with them.
Think outside the box and we will all have our place in Verra.
We need to be more creative in finding solutions to bridging the gap between a hardcore player base and casuals. This has to happen on Dev side and the Community side for a Balance to be found. We can not just say hardcore players need to be "nerfed" because they have more time than casual and therefore will ruin the game for them. Casuals need to invest their time also into more than just grinding or questing. Everyone should experience the full game and what it has to offer. Alliances, corruption flagging, Bounty hunting, talk to people, a casual might be the best crafter in the sever and negotiates peace with the biggest PVP guild for free passage and protection all based on trade with them.
Think outside the box and we will all have our place in Verra.
I don't think this should be seen as a nerf. Power is relative and against an opponent of equal power, the amount you scale doesn't matter. All scaling does is reduce the pool of players you can have a competitive fight with. Unless you consider being able to overwhelm other players with numbers as a reward, i don't see how you can see this as a nerf.
I don't see this as trying to prevent hardcore players from ruining the game for casuals, i see it as allowing casual players to play with hardcore players. If you believe casuals should be able to experience the full game then they need to be able to play with everyone.
This isn't thinking outside of the box but the issue is created by the amount players scale so the solution would be to reduce that scaling and give out rewards that don't directly effect power.
I don't think this should be seen as a nerf. Power is relative and against an opponent of equal power, the amount you scale doesn't matter. All scaling does is reduce the pool of players you can have a competitive fight with. Unless you consider being able to overwhelm other players with numbers as a reward, i don't see how you can see this as a nerf.
I don't see this as trying to prevent hardcore players from ruining the game for casuals, i see it as allowing casual players to play with hardcore players. If you believe casuals should be able to experience the full game then they need to be able to play with everyone.
From the pov of L2 vet it looks like this: if I see a dude that's 2 tiers in gear lower than me, but I know that the game's gear scaling is very tight - I'll probably go and fight that dude, because I'd be fighting against his skill rather than just his gear.
If we have the same in Ashes, all the casual players, who don't have the skill for the pvp or don't want to be bothered with pvp most of the time, will complain a lot about being attacked by stronger dudes. Yes, you'll allow a skill-hardcore player to fight on more equal terms with better-geared people (that's what was cool about L2 imo), but all the casuals will suffer more from it.
But if we have at least steps of scaling (say, t1 and 2 are close but t3 is a fair bit more powerful, and then t3-4 a close, while t5 and legend uniques are at the top and stronger still), we might keep the casuals from complaining and give hardcore pvpers who want to test their target's skills a better indicator for their targets.
I myself would prefer the L2 balancing, just because I am a hardcore player who will not only put countless hours into the game right from the start but also try to learn literally everything there is to learn about all the classes and their mechanics/skills - so tight gear scaling is way more beneficial for me. But I would also prefer the game to live for as long as possible and I feel like some proper power lvl spacing would serve that goal well.
[If you believe casuals should be able to experience the full game........
Having the option to do something and having the ability to do something is not the same thing. I believe everyone should be able to try and do great things in ashes. Someone has to lose. Its more a matter to making something to do that is fun, for each type of player. And thats what i believe ashes is trying to do aswell.
Have the pvp there for the pvp players. Have the pve for the pve players. Have the stay at home managment of your freehold for those who want that. Have the animal breeding for those who want that. Have crafting for those who want that.
Hypothetical- Someone with literally no skill and no time to spend on the game, should not be rewarded.... thats life.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited June 2022
It's just ridiculous to keep equating casuals with having no skill.
"The casuals have to lose."
(◔_◔)
It's just ridiculous to keep equating casuals with having no skill.
"The casuals have to lose."
:roll_eyes:
Thats actually part of my argument. The strawman "casual" seems to be a brainless, timeless, chap. Who some people feel need to be protected, hand fed, and looked after. Just make a good game. Casuals will be there playing it right next to the hard core players... because its a good game. Opportunity is more important than garenteed
Im not saying the casuals have to lose. Im saying someone does, and if we're going to look at evening the playing field so much that a player cant feel powerful, we've destroyed the very point in playing the game.
It's more about the time you put into the knowledge of the game and application of it. A casual player won't know the precise details of class interactions, so of course they won't be as good in pvp as a dude who knows that stuff. And on top of that, the knowledge dude has spent more time honing his skills in the game while casual player most likely didn't.
And all of that is on top of time invested into gear. So imo yes, casuals will lose in most cases, just by the nature of their existence.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It's more about the time you put into the knowledge of the game and application of it. A casual player won't know the precise details of class interactions, so of course they won't be as good in pvp as a dude who knows that stuff. And on top of that, the knowledge dude has spent more time honing his skills in the game while casual player most likely didn't.
That's just elitist bullshit.
Especially considering a lot of current casual time players used to be hardcore time/hardcore challenge back in the day.
Supposedly this thread is about max level v max level.
It's more about the time you put into the knowledge of the game and application of it. A casual player won't know the precise details of class interactions, so of course they won't be as good in pvp as a dude who knows that stuff. And on top of that, the knowledge dude has spent more time honing his skills in the game while casual player most likely didn't.
That's just elitist bullshit.
Its funny. My definition of a casual, is someone who gets by well enough, that they dont look further into what they need to do to strengthen their character and so on.... like in my head a casual is someone who just playes, and they "float" on their decent skills to the point which they dont go looking into every aspect of the game otherwise.
And with that definition in mind. I see this gear topic as a casual saying, i dont want to have to go out of my way and try to compete with the very best. I want the very best to hardly be better than me without effort. To which i say.... no? If you want to be the best, and compete with the best, you are by definition, not a casual.
That's just elitist bullshit.
Especially considering a lot of current casual time players used to be hardcore time/hardcore challenge back in the day.
And I'm sure that in all those other games where they were hardcore, they'd have way more skills than casuals in that game. But if you come into this game w/o a ton of research on it and then not spend a ton of time learning about it or just playing it, the chances are - you'll lose in pvp against a person who did all of that.
Its funny. My definition of a casual, is someone who gets by well enough, that they dont look further into what they need to do to strengthen their character and so on.... like in my head a casual is someone who just playes, and they "float" on their decent skills to the point which they dont go looking into every aspect of the game otherwise.
And with that definition in mind. I see this gear topic as a casual saying, i dont want to have to go out of my way and try to compete with the very best. I want the very best to hardly be better than me without effort. To which i say.... no? If you want to be the best, and compete with the best, you are by definition, not a casual.
There are at least two spectrums: time and challenge.
For instance, I am hardcore time/casual challenge.
But, again, lots of people who used to be hardcore time/hardcore challenge are now casual time/hardcore challenge. Some of them are now casual time/casual challenge.
But, casual challenge can also mean lack of interest; not lack of skill.
You don't necessrily have to "want to compete with the best" to acquire the best gear and actually be a formidable opponent in PvP - especially objective-based PvP.
Players are going to be seeking to acquire max level gear - especially at max level. They will also be seeking to build their character(s) to fulfill their vision of an ideal character.
But, again, Ashes is balanced around an 8-person group.
It's not like 8-person groups will be either all casual challenge players or all hardcore challenge players.
It's not like it will always be casual challenge players v hardcore challenge players.
It's not like casual time players or casual challenge players cannot acquire BiS gear from hardcore time or hardcore challenge players.
Ashes has a Mentor system - which means casual players (and low level/newbie) players do not have to only rely on themselves to learn combat tactics and strategies.
Also, with regard to gear disparity...
There will also be occasions when the gear disparity is due to a hardcore time/hardcore challenge player playing an alt that has not yet acquired that character(s) BiS gear.
None of which necessarily changes whatever concerns people may have about how gear is designed.
But, it really has nothing to do with casual v hardcore.
And, I mean,
There all kinds of people who complain about anything.
I dunno what being a carebear has to do with "not being able to catch up".
But, it really has nothing to do with casual v hardcore.
I agree, thats why i said "someone has to lose"
Someone, will be losing, no matter what, And i would perfer a game where gear is as cool as it can be, over a game where obtaining something doesnt really matter. Someone is still losing in the end anyway
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
That's just elitist bullshit.
Especially considering a lot of current casual time players used to be hardcore time/hardcore challenge back in the day.
And I'm sure that in all those other games where they were hardcore, they'd have way more skills than casuals in that game. But if you come into this game w/o a ton of research on it and then not spend a ton of time learning about it or just playing it, the chances are - you'll lose in pvp against a person who did all of that.
Well, you can be sure all you want, but...
No. That really has nothing to do with casual v hardcore.
Especially in a game that is balanced for objective-based PvP and 8-person groups.
If gear is scaled in a way that each tier is quite more powerful than the previous one, then player power will be determined by gear tier (excluding the skill, because that takes time on its own). Higher tiers will be locked not only by harder pve, but also pvp. Both of those things take time and skill (which takes time). Any higher tiered gear will be more expensive and will be rarer than the previous tier. So it won't be as easy as "just buy higher tier lol". Because acquiring big amounts of money will either require time or being hardcore in the money-making skill in the game (playing the market, going deep in the artisan skills - both take time).
So all in all, player strength will be related to their time investment. Yes, some time-casual players might have super hardcore friends that will for whatever reason give them BiS gear w/o asking anything in return. But that kind of interaction would mean that the casual player has friends in the top guild on the server, which already gives them a huge advantage over other casual players, but that's just how it be sometimes.
So all I'm trying to say is time-hardcore players will always be ahead and the only thing we can change is how far they are and what the influence of that difference is. Imo tight scaling leads to more pvp, which, I hear, annoys the non-pvpers. Wider scaling leads to bigger difference in power between time-dependent players, but it also allows the non-pvpers to enjoy the game at their own pace w/o worrying that they'll get attacked every day.
And allegedly casual-time/hardcore-challenge peeps might be completely fine with getting pvped every day, but what's the ratio between them and full casual players? I hope Intrepid knows that ratio (at least roughly) and account for it in their design accordingly. Cause we all know that the closer to release we get, the louder the full casuals will become (they always do).
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited June 2022
Partially determined by gear tier.
I understand what you are trying to say - and you are saying it.
Just, what you are saying is false.
Everything else is skill (both mechanical and build-related), and those things require time or being hardcore about game knowledge (which kinda takes time too).
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
[If you believe casuals should be able to experience the full game........
Having the option to do something and having the ability to do something is not the same thing. I believe everyone should be able to try and do great things in ashes. Someone has to lose. Its more a matter to making something to do that is fun, for each type of player. And thats what i believe ashes is trying to do aswell.
Have the pvp there for the pvp players. Have the pve for the pve players. Have the stay at home managment of your freehold for those who want that. Have the animal breeding for those who want that. Have crafting for those who want that.
Hypothetical- Someone with literally no skill and no time to spend on the game, should not be rewarded.... thats life.
Yes, option and ability are not the same but if scaling is too high, the option does not exist. I'm not saying the game should be designed so casuals can win fights, i just want them to be able to contribute without being 2 shot.
Not all pvp players are hardcore players. There are people who play casually and still enjoy pvp. I want them to be able to participate.
The games that end up handing out free rewards are the ones that have extreme vertical progression. They need to give out these free rewards because the power is necessary for players to play with the rest of the playerbase. By controlling vertical progression, they hopefully won't have to create catchup mechanics and give out these free rewards since players don't need the power to play with the rest of the playerbase.
Everything else is skill (both mechanical and build-related), and those things require time or being hardcore about game knowledge (which kinda takes time too).
Someone mentioned something recently about how MMO players are on average the least skilled (even within their own Genre) of competitive gamers. I will assume they are talking about physical skills and analysis skills, since that's the only metric you could use across all genres.
This is an easy reasoning to both 'prove' and 'define as irrelevant'. MMOs take less skill of those types, so more people with less skills play them, so the average comes down.
But maybe MMO players that stick around have more of a specific 'skill' that comes up a lot in my circles. "The Will To Keep Winning" as the book goes. Getting better at games may be a function of time and the game's design, but the WILL to keep trying when losing is seemingly independent.
Poor gear balance pushes down more strongly, requiring a higher 'Will To Keep Winning' 'stat' for success, simply because you win/see the chance to win, less often.
Just rambling since 'being hardcore about game knowledge' seems to correlate to this.
But maybe MMO players that stick around have more of a specific 'skill' that comes up a lot in my circles. "The Will To Keep Winning" as the book goes. Getting better at games may be a function of time and the game's design, but the WILL to keep trying when losing is seemingly independent.
Poor gear balance pushes down more strongly, requiring a higher 'Will To Keep Winning' 'stat' for success, simply because you win/see the chance to win, less often.
Just rambling since 'being hardcore about game knowledge' seems to correlate to this.
Most definitely. And I think this is why pvp games don't live too long. Cause there's only a limited amount of people with that kind of "skill". And exactly why all the current L2 players still play on older versions of the game, because their "skill" is maxxed out and they can endlessly pvp against others, winning and losing yet always persevering.
And I personally dunno what kind of game design could help players hone that skill w/o just having pvp in it and saying "go git good". I hope Intrepid can figure that out and make the most successful pvp mmorpg out there, but only the time will tell.
But maybe MMO players that stick around have more of a specific 'skill' that comes up a lot in my circles. "The Will To Keep Winning" as the book goes. Getting better at games may be a function of time and the game's design, but the WILL to keep trying when losing is seemingly independent.
Poor gear balance pushes down more strongly, requiring a higher 'Will To Keep Winning' 'stat' for success, simply because you win/see the chance to win, less often.
Just rambling since 'being hardcore about game knowledge' seems to correlate to this.
Most definitely. And I think this is why pvp games don't live too long. Cause there's only a limited amount of people with that kind of "skill". And exactly why all the current L2 players still play on older versions of the game, because their "skill" is maxxed out and they can endlessly pvp against others, winning and losing yet always persevering.
And I personally dunno what kind of game design could help players hone that skill w/o just having pvp in it and saying "go git good". I hope Intrepid can figure that out and make the most successful pvp mmorpg out there, but only the time will tell.
The most important part of PvP game design these days, I think, is making sure that by some means, the loser absolutely understands why they lost and what they need to do about it.
At least then, 'I can't do this, I quit' is an informed decision and not just 'idk what bullshit just happened but I'm tired of it'.
Meta is going to happen, its going to form. Any system with values, someone will work that system and try to make something optimal. I would rather have individual peices over sets regardless of how this could impact the rate at which meta forms. And i think it is beter from a designing standpoint. It allows things to be more discoverable. Players to feel more inventive.
Nikr brought up a good point. In pointing out the pvp incentives of a larger gap system.
With 10% or so gap in gear teirs. You kind of know who is worth messing with for the things that you want. You know who might beat your team in dps taking the boss loot, you know who might be dangerous. It gives you parameters for who do i not bother with, who do i be wary of, and who do i look at preying on. Having easily defined teirs lets players know who is in their weight class and can allows weaker players to fly under the radar in a way. And with over enchanting letting teir 2 weapons approach teir 3 weapons and so on it allows players to look like bait, while being competitivly stat'd.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Everything else is skill (both mechanical and build-related), and those things require time or being hardcore about game knowledge (which kinda takes time too).
They don't necessarily require time.
People don't have to figure everything out for themselves.
You don't have to be hardcore to acquire hardcore knowledge.
Hardcore players can share both gear and knowledge with casual players - and that is very easily done when the casual players are veteran MMORPG players.
Hardcore players can share both gear and knowledge with casual players - and that is very easily done when the casual players are veteran MMORPG players.
And as the video I posted says, and I agree, if you decide to learn that knowledge to gain benefit from it - you're hardcore about the game. Also, just having knowledge doesn't always = ability to utilize it to its fullest potential. And that takes time. Yes, it'll take less time because you've got super hardcore friends, but how many people have those kinds of friends? And I'd bet that even fewer people have hardcore friends that would give them hardcore-lvl gear. At which point we're going into discussion of "how many people are we considering in our suggestions, a few hundred special ones or thousands and thousands of people who don't have easy access to high lvl resources?"
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited June 2022
LMAO
No.
I can also find a flat Earth video on YouTube.
Guess we have different views on who's casual and who's hardcore. But we have differing opinions on pretty much every single topic so there's nothing new there.
Comments
Yeah, but this is the point of an MMORPG. Giving players choices.
It would also be easier to give players specific set class kits with no options- like a MOBA - but that is not what MMO's are about.
Well, yeah the developers need to do their job.
Keep in mind, I am speaking from the perspective of a game that adds expansions every year. Each expansion adds hundreds of items, many of which have new stats and/or effects.
The argument that the developers would have to do some work is not a valid reason to remove player choice.
I'm not arguing against negative effects - some gear having negative effects is a fairly well established notion. I am saying there is literally no reason why gear sets should be the meta, rather than individual pieces of gear.
Some are but of course there is the middle ground as well. And for PvE centric players the worst kind of PvP is nonconsensual so basically being a target for gankers. This is not ofc AoC special rather the usual case in any MMORPG where open world PvP is involved. Anyway, it is getting enough off topic so better stop here. 😅
There is alot of good conversation going on around the OP of this, but this right here really highlights my feeling on this topic.
Yes there needs to be a "balance" for the Casual gamer ( such as myself) but also there needs to be a meaningful reason for grinding gear. It should feel like the item you get gives you that boost and you as a player should learn to boost your skill with it. People who have more time in game should not be punished for the casual player and the casual player should not be punished for being casual. How do we fix that?
Well for the people who have time AKA Hardcore player they have the advantage out the gate of having the time to grind and get loot and such. So yes they will be able to crush a casual player 1v1 that just makes sense to me. What also needs to be taken into account is hardcore players will not always be looking at casuals to attack them, they want a challenge to their skills and gear and will seek like minded encounters.
Now Casual players might seem at a disadvantage if you only factor in time, and you would be right. however a casual player has a lot more to help boost them in sever. Know your skills invest time in learning your class, gear yourself as best you can and know how to use to world to your advantage if an when someone "better" than you attacks. More over casuals can find other people of like minds to hang with/ run with. For example the guild i made is based around casual to hardcore players who all work together. This is an option casual should look to. Also we have started alliances with other casual guilds to help boost our "numbers" in sever and chances of having backup as needed. This also helps the casual person get the ability to farm/ grind for better gear.
We need to be more creative in finding solutions to bridging the gap between a hardcore player base and casuals. This has to happen on Dev side and the Community side for a Balance to be found. We can not just say hardcore players need to be "nerfed" because they have more time than casual and therefore will ruin the game for them. Casuals need to invest their time also into more than just grinding or questing. Everyone should experience the full game and what it has to offer. Alliances, corruption flagging, Bounty hunting, talk to people, a casual might be the best crafter in the sever and negotiates peace with the biggest PVP guild for free passage and protection all based on trade with them.
Think outside the box and we will all have our place in Verra.
The Wolves of Verra
are recruiting: https://discord.gg/4bFySwxS
I don't think this should be seen as a nerf. Power is relative and against an opponent of equal power, the amount you scale doesn't matter. All scaling does is reduce the pool of players you can have a competitive fight with. Unless you consider being able to overwhelm other players with numbers as a reward, i don't see how you can see this as a nerf.
I don't see this as trying to prevent hardcore players from ruining the game for casuals, i see it as allowing casual players to play with hardcore players. If you believe casuals should be able to experience the full game then they need to be able to play with everyone.
This isn't thinking outside of the box but the issue is created by the amount players scale so the solution would be to reduce that scaling and give out rewards that don't directly effect power.
If we have the same in Ashes, all the casual players, who don't have the skill for the pvp or don't want to be bothered with pvp most of the time, will complain a lot about being attacked by stronger dudes. Yes, you'll allow a skill-hardcore player to fight on more equal terms with better-geared people (that's what was cool about L2 imo), but all the casuals will suffer more from it.
But if we have at least steps of scaling (say, t1 and 2 are close but t3 is a fair bit more powerful, and then t3-4 a close, while t5 and legend uniques are at the top and stronger still), we might keep the casuals from complaining and give hardcore pvpers who want to test their target's skills a better indicator for their targets.
I myself would prefer the L2 balancing, just because I am a hardcore player who will not only put countless hours into the game right from the start but also try to learn literally everything there is to learn about all the classes and their mechanics/skills - so tight gear scaling is way more beneficial for me. But I would also prefer the game to live for as long as possible and I feel like some proper power lvl spacing would serve that goal well.
Having the option to do something and having the ability to do something is not the same thing. I believe everyone should be able to try and do great things in ashes. Someone has to lose. Its more a matter to making something to do that is fun, for each type of player. And thats what i believe ashes is trying to do aswell.
Have the pvp there for the pvp players. Have the pve for the pve players. Have the stay at home managment of your freehold for those who want that. Have the animal breeding for those who want that. Have crafting for those who want that.
Hypothetical- Someone with literally no skill and no time to spend on the game, should not be rewarded.... thats life.
"The casuals have to lose."
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Thats actually part of my argument. The strawman "casual" seems to be a brainless, timeless, chap. Who some people feel need to be protected, hand fed, and looked after. Just make a good game. Casuals will be there playing it right next to the hard core players... because its a good game. Opportunity is more important than garenteed
Im not saying the casuals have to lose. Im saying someone does, and if we're going to look at evening the playing field so much that a player cant feel powerful, we've destroyed the very point in playing the game.
It's more about the time you put into the knowledge of the game and application of it. A casual player won't know the precise details of class interactions, so of course they won't be as good in pvp as a dude who knows that stuff. And on top of that, the knowledge dude has spent more time honing his skills in the game while casual player most likely didn't.
And all of that is on top of time invested into gear. So imo yes, casuals will lose in most cases, just by the nature of their existence.
Especially considering a lot of current casual time players used to be hardcore time/hardcore challenge back in the day.
Supposedly this thread is about max level v max level.
Its funny. My definition of a casual, is someone who gets by well enough, that they dont look further into what they need to do to strengthen their character and so on.... like in my head a casual is someone who just playes, and they "float" on their decent skills to the point which they dont go looking into every aspect of the game otherwise.
And with that definition in mind. I see this gear topic as a casual saying, i dont want to have to go out of my way and try to compete with the very best. I want the very best to hardly be better than me without effort. To which i say.... no? If you want to be the best, and compete with the best, you are by definition, not a casual.
Hard core players- that sweat literally everything
Sweats- that look into how to improve their play in the areas they get mad at.
Casuals- who do what they like and just develop themselves over time without any real effort
And care bears, who complain others are so far ahead that they will never catch up.
And more..... because people are of all kinds......
For instance, I am hardcore time/casual challenge.
But, again, lots of people who used to be hardcore time/hardcore challenge are now casual time/hardcore challenge. Some of them are now casual time/casual challenge.
But, casual challenge can also mean lack of interest; not lack of skill.
You don't necessrily have to "want to compete with the best" to acquire the best gear and actually be a formidable opponent in PvP - especially objective-based PvP.
Players are going to be seeking to acquire max level gear - especially at max level. They will also be seeking to build their character(s) to fulfill their vision of an ideal character.
But, again, Ashes is balanced around an 8-person group.
It's not like 8-person groups will be either all casual challenge players or all hardcore challenge players.
It's not like it will always be casual challenge players v hardcore challenge players.
It's not like casual time players or casual challenge players cannot acquire BiS gear from hardcore time or hardcore challenge players.
Ashes has a Mentor system - which means casual players (and low level/newbie) players do not have to only rely on themselves to learn combat tactics and strategies.
Also, with regard to gear disparity...
There will also be occasions when the gear disparity is due to a hardcore time/hardcore challenge player playing an alt that has not yet acquired that character(s) BiS gear.
None of which necessarily changes whatever concerns people may have about how gear is designed.
But, it really has nothing to do with casual v hardcore.
And, I mean,
There all kinds of people who complain about anything.
I dunno what being a carebear has to do with "not being able to catch up".
I agree, thats why i said "someone has to lose"
Someone, will be losing, no matter what, And i would perfer a game where gear is as cool as it can be, over a game where obtaining something doesnt really matter. Someone is still losing in the end anyway
No. That really has nothing to do with casual v hardcore.
Especially in a game that is balanced for objective-based PvP and 8-person groups.
So all in all, player strength will be related to their time investment. Yes, some time-casual players might have super hardcore friends that will for whatever reason give them BiS gear w/o asking anything in return. But that kind of interaction would mean that the casual player has friends in the top guild on the server, which already gives them a huge advantage over other casual players, but that's just how it be sometimes.
So all I'm trying to say is time-hardcore players will always be ahead and the only thing we can change is how far they are and what the influence of that difference is. Imo tight scaling leads to more pvp, which, I hear, annoys the non-pvpers. Wider scaling leads to bigger difference in power between time-dependent players, but it also allows the non-pvpers to enjoy the game at their own pace w/o worrying that they'll get attacked every day.
And allegedly casual-time/hardcore-challenge peeps might be completely fine with getting pvped every day, but what's the ratio between them and full casual players? I hope Intrepid knows that ratio (at least roughly) and account for it in their design accordingly. Cause we all know that the closer to release we get, the louder the full casuals will become (they always do).
I understand what you are trying to say - and you are saying it.
Just, what you are saying is false.
Yes, option and ability are not the same but if scaling is too high, the option does not exist. I'm not saying the game should be designed so casuals can win fights, i just want them to be able to contribute without being 2 shot.
Not all pvp players are hardcore players. There are people who play casually and still enjoy pvp. I want them to be able to participate.
The games that end up handing out free rewards are the ones that have extreme vertical progression. They need to give out these free rewards because the power is necessary for players to play with the rest of the playerbase. By controlling vertical progression, they hopefully won't have to create catchup mechanics and give out these free rewards since players don't need the power to play with the rest of the playerbase.
Someone mentioned something recently about how MMO players are on average the least skilled (even within their own Genre) of competitive gamers. I will assume they are talking about physical skills and analysis skills, since that's the only metric you could use across all genres.
This is an easy reasoning to both 'prove' and 'define as irrelevant'. MMOs take less skill of those types, so more people with less skills play them, so the average comes down.
But maybe MMO players that stick around have more of a specific 'skill' that comes up a lot in my circles. "The Will To Keep Winning" as the book goes. Getting better at games may be a function of time and the game's design, but the WILL to keep trying when losing is seemingly independent.
Poor gear balance pushes down more strongly, requiring a higher 'Will To Keep Winning' 'stat' for success, simply because you win/see the chance to win, less often.
Just rambling since 'being hardcore about game knowledge' seems to correlate to this.
And I personally dunno what kind of game design could help players hone that skill w/o just having pvp in it and saying "go git good". I hope Intrepid can figure that out and make the most successful pvp mmorpg out there, but only the time will tell.
The most important part of PvP game design these days, I think, is making sure that by some means, the loser absolutely understands why they lost and what they need to do about it.
At least then, 'I can't do this, I quit' is an informed decision and not just 'idk what bullshit just happened but I'm tired of it'.
Meta is going to happen, its going to form. Any system with values, someone will work that system and try to make something optimal. I would rather have individual peices over sets regardless of how this could impact the rate at which meta forms. And i think it is beter from a designing standpoint. It allows things to be more discoverable. Players to feel more inventive.
With 10% or so gap in gear teirs. You kind of know who is worth messing with for the things that you want. You know who might beat your team in dps taking the boss loot, you know who might be dangerous. It gives you parameters for who do i not bother with, who do i be wary of, and who do i look at preying on. Having easily defined teirs lets players know who is in their weight class and can allows weaker players to fly under the radar in a way. And with over enchanting letting teir 2 weapons approach teir 3 weapons and so on it allows players to look like bait, while being competitivly stat'd.
People don't have to figure everything out for themselves.
You don't have to be hardcore to acquire hardcore knowledge.
Hardcore players can share both gear and knowledge with casual players - and that is very easily done when the casual players are veteran MMORPG players.
No.
I can also find a flat Earth video on YouTube.