One example I had in mind...
NPCs in the general area could have random lines about dangerous monsters that appeared recently, they could have visual or sound cues to tell you there is a big level difference, or whatever.
I'm not sure what you mean by visual cues.
I don't believe Scalerunners will be telegraphing level disparity by body movements or sound, such that the behavior of the mob changes once you match or surpass the level of that specific mob.
And, I don't believe there is a way to translate those signals from a Scalerunner to an Amanita Verna to a Gibbering Maw such that we hear a Gibberig Maw and think, "Oh, that Gibbering Maw must be 3 levels higher than we are."
I do hope there will be disparity in the level of the mobs in an area, and I think if you've been playing in a node for a while, and suddenly you see new monsters, you would be cautious, except if you can already tell their level and then you just scrap that whole dimension of the game loop.
It's not about really about caution.
It's about threat assessment and determining whether the new mob is one level higher than what you've been farming, rather than 3-5 levels higher than what you've been farming. Is it slightly out of my league or is there really no hope for me to defeat it at my current level.
It really adds to the exploration when you need to get accustomed to an area, know what spots are good for your current level, try to explore a bit and figure out you need to come back later.
I don't see how it can add to exploration. The first thing I do when I level is explore as far as possible until I hit mobs that con as skulls. I'm already going to know the geography of the area where I'm farming.
Again, in Ashes, we can't really know the spots that are good for our current level because Ashes is dynamic, rather than static. Spots effectively level as Nodes progress from Stage to Stage building construction. Different types of mobs might appear based on changes in racial demographics.
The primary way you figure out if you need to come back later is by assessing the level disparity of the mobs; not simply by the level of an area. Because the level of an area changes.
You're offering 2 alternatives there and I don't think one is better than the other. It's always easier to deal with an encounter if you go level up first, but some people will make sure to go for the highest thing they can kill with their current personal skill.
Also, it's a matter of perspective what is time "wasted" and what is not. If you're really goal oriented and are looking to optimize your progress to speedrun to max level or whatever, sure, I guess, but the important part is the journey, right? I think getting one shot by a mosquito for the first time in Valheim was a very memorable experience for many players, and in most if not all of the clips I saw, the people were clearly having fun when they realized what was happening.
I think I mentioned three alternatives.
But, no. When you go to an encounter, you don't simply think, "OK. I need to go level before I tackle this."
Most likely your encounter is going to be a match. You're on a quest and you assume the encounters nearby are going to be around the same level as the quest.
So, the first thing you think when you die is, "Oh. I need to tweak my tactics a bit."
Second thing you think is, "Oh, this mob is supposed to be my level so... maybe I need to upgrade my gear to BiS for my level."
Third thing you think is, "Hmmmn. Maybe there is some class ability my level that I haven't picked up yet."
Then you might realize, "OK, there is no way I can defeat this mob right now. I'm going to gain a couple levels and return.
But, you've probably died 6-10 times trying to figure all that out.
Having easily available info on levels etc... lets you plan your leveling route, and take away from the organic feeling. It prevents you from getting these experiences while exploring. To me, it's an integral part of the exploration to go in a new area with no idea what to expect, progressing carefully to gauge the danger, etc...
And when you engage a fight with something, and it turns out it's not intended for your level, but you still manage to kill it, the feeling is a lot more rewarding than if you fully knew what you were walking into, or you might have just walked away thinking you wouldn't be able to do it.
I don't understand how you can easily plan a leveling route when areas change levels and you have no easy means to assess the threat levels of the mobs in the area - especially since the mobs in the area change.
I also don't know what you mean by, "take away from the organic feeling of exploring a new area."
Again, the first thing I do when I level is explore the map as far as possible until I hit mobs that con as skulls.
It always feels organic and dangerous and I have to explore carefully in order to not aggro mobs that con red.
But, the issue really isn't even about exploring new areas. It's about new, higher level mobs appearing in old areas and being able to assess that they are so far out of your league that you won't be able to kill them until you gain some more levels.
I tend to turn MMOs into jobs, farm the most efficient ways, optimize my progression, when really I have the most fun just discovering things like that, being a bit lost. And sometimes, "wasting" time trying to kill something that's too hard for you, whether you succeed or not, can be a good experience in and of itself, even if it slows down your farming, it can be a good experience and make you a better player in the long run.
Dying 6-10 times just to determine that the mob you're fighting is 3-5 levels higher than you are is not efficient.
But again, that's just my views, and I can't expect everyone to enjoy the same things, but we were asked on our personal preference, so I explain why I prefer very light UI It makes the game feel more organic, more immersive, and puts you in interesting situations by forcing you to interact with your environment more.
I don't think anything I said counters a desire for a light UI.
I think most people prefer a light UI. That doesn't inherently mean that a light UI is practical.
Sure, there are people who believe having no health bars is more immersive - but it's actually not.
In real life, we have 5+ senses highly adapated to assessing health - for ourselves as well as for prey.
In a video game, we basically only have 2 senses to rely on: sight and sound. And, because Humans rely on sight more than sound (or smell), video game focus on visuals to display pertinent info.
The easiest way to provide visual info is via numbers. Ashes design foregoes numbers in the health bar.
So, we know the plan is to try something new with health bars. I expect the devs will try something new with enemy indicators also.
Again, it could be great to have to acquire an augment in order to reveal level disparity. We have to be Level 25+ to acquire class augments. People who don't want to use the enemy indicators wouldn't have to acquire those augments.
Just because some people use enemy indicators doesn't mean they have to be in the game by default and doesn't mean everyone always has to use them.
I haven't said anything like, "Having a light UI is bad game design."
What I have said is that we need some way to let us know that we're wasting our time thinking, "Oh, I just need to tweak what I have already," when really what we have to do is gain some levels.
Ultimately, the devs can figure out how to accomplish that.
If the devs can do so with "visual cues and sound", that's great!
We don't disagree on that, if it's possible.
It is not telling you level, it just signals to you that the mob is too strong.
That is only one way in which an in game system could be implemented. They could make it so that there is a visual indicator that shows if the mob is within a level of you, up to 5 levels above you or below you, or more than 10 levels above you or below you.
Any option that you would hinder yourself by choosing isn't an option.
I agree here, which is why I said in my above post that I am unsure how I would want an in game indicator to look. It would need to provide the same information as a UI indicator - but that isn't impossible to do.
Even if the in game indicator was only showing if a mob is significantly higher level than you, it would still have it's use in people that spend a lot of time in the game.
However, such a system would simply not work for people that do not spend as much time in the game.
By visual cues I mean animations, VFX or whatever. For audio cues, it can be alterations in the music or specific sound effects. I'll take a very simple example, an Alpha pokémon in Arceus. They have red glowing eyes and a specific music that plays when you get in proximity. I'm of course not saying this is what should be done.
The primary way you figure out if you need to come back later is by assessing the level disparity of the mobs; not simply by the level of an area. Because the level of an area changes.
And how do you assess the level of each type of mobs? with UI, by looking at it, without, by figthing it, and the fact that it's dynamic makes it part of the game loop since you need to reassess when there are new elements.
Then you might realize, "OK, there is no way I can defeat this mob right now. I'm going to gain a couple levels and return.
But, you've probably died 6-10 times trying to figure all that out.
I doubt that you would go as far as to die 6-10 times on a regular mob with experience debt being a thing. If it's a boss or something, you should have a general idea of its level with the damage you take, the damage you can do to it, and the fact that other people might have killed it already, it encourages social interactions.
If you do not understand some of the points I made and disagree on what is immersive or not then I guess we haven't played the same games and I do not think I can easily convey it to you if my previous message wasn't enough. An other key point is that to me "wasting" time is still playing the game, it's part of the gameplay, and after playing a game for a while you can very easily figure out what is overleved or not, it's up to you to decide how much time you're willing to spend on the same mob. Maybe you'll die 6-10 times on one particular mob once, but over time, you would probably move on after a single or a couple deaths, with penalties being a thing.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2022
Red glowing eyes aren't particularly different than a red or skulled nameplate, so sure, that's fine.
I don't believe the devs can use musical cues for us to distinguish which mobs in a horde are below our level, match our level and are above our level.
I also don't believe we want hordes of mobs to be playing a cacophony of sounds as we encounter them.
Again, I am not as concerned about the mobs are so far above level that the disparity is obvious from one hit as I am about the mobs that seem close to what I'm already farming, such that it seems like the problems we're having are due to tactics, ability selection or being undergeared for our level, when the real problem is level disparity.
I typically assess mobs primarily by the color of the name plate - not by mob type. Then I farm the mob type in the area I'm in. If, surprisingly, I am attacked by something I can't defeat in the area, I check the color of the name plate to see if it's supposed to be my level.
If it's supposed to be my level, I go through the steps I outlined.
I'm not talking about bosses. I'm talking about mobs that appear in an area where you have been farming, where you think the local mobs should match your level - although, they no longer match your level because a Node has progressed and/or a building has been constructed which changes the demographics of the mobs in your farming spot.
And, yes, it can be easy to die 6 times while trying to determine why you're suddenly wiping in an area where you have been farming successfully for some time - if you are testing parameters that aren't due to level disparity.
If the disparity is so great that one hit takes out 90% of your health, obviously, you know it's too high a level for you to fight. If it's a fairly close fight each time regardless of your change in tactics and gear-check and ability updates - yeah, you might finally realize that the mobs must no longer match your level.
Experience debt doesn't stop you from returning to an area to see if you can defeat that mob.
In my examples, we have already killed mobs that appear similar, so we already are the people who apparently have killed those mobs before. Also, when new mobs appear in an area, we may be the first group to encounter those mobs.
Again, Ashes is a dynamic gameworld.
You respond as if the gameworld is static.
In Ashes, combat is balanced around 8-person groups with one of each Primary Archetype.
I factored that into my examples. That's why I mentioned changing synergies - as one thing to try during threat assessment. As in, changing how you synergize your abilities with others in the group.
I already factored in the social aspect.
Which is also why I suggested having Class/Race/Religion/Social Org augments as a method of revealing level disparity.
I'm not going to play a game where I feel like I am wasting time.
Red glowing eyes aren't particularly different than a red or skulled nameplate, so sure, that's fine.
I don't believe the devs can use musical cues for us to distinguish which mobs in a horde are below our level, match our level and are above our level.
I also don't believe we want hordes of mobs to be playing a cacophony of sounds as we encounter them.
That's why you use a combination of visual and sound cues, you only really need to know when something is out of your league, I do not believe you need information that accurate. Just knowing that there is at least one mob in a pack that is too dangerous for you is enough info, and by looking at it you should be able to tell. It should look more intimidating.
I'm not going to play a game where I feel like I am wasting time.
That's a very valid feeling. But time isn't wasted if you're having fun, and chasing efficiency can suck the fun out of a game and turn it into a job. Time willingly "wasted" is good time spent, it's a game after all.
I am feeling like our discussion is steering away from the points originally brought up, so I propose we just move on I shared all that I wanted to share already, thanks for the back and forth, I appreciate it.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2022
Red glowing eyes are fine as an enemy indicator.
So, we agree well enough that there's no need for me to nitpick the rest.
Red glowing eyes are fine as an enemy indicator.
So, we agree well enough that there's no need for me to nitpick the rest.
Strongly disagree. Those are way easier to get lost in lighting conditions, weather, particle effects and obstructions more than a simple nameplate entry.
Red glowing eyes are fine as an enemy indicator.
So, we agree well enough that there's no need for me to nitpick the rest.
Strongly disagree. Those are way easier to get lost in lighting conditions, weather, particle effects and obstructions more than a simple nameplate entry.
Sorry.
What I meant is that we agree well enough that there should be some form of enemy indicator that's effectively like a colored nameplate. We seem to be generally in the same one of the three options provided in the OP.
I'm content to have the devs figure out the specifics of what it looks like.
I don't expect the devs to simply implement glowing eyes as the actual feature.
That's why you use a combination of visual and sound cues,
With MMO's being primarily social games, almost all players I know have all game sounds turned off so that they can chat, even while just out soloing
You can't really use sound to communicate information to players.
If a game gives you information and you choose to ignore it then you can hardly blame the game for it...
As for the overall topic, why not have a level indicator but not per individual enemy but rather for either the area or for whatever the highest level foe in a certain proximity to you.
Ok, so I am 76 years old, an avid gamer since the Sega Megadrive was born. With old age certain medical problems come with the job, My eyesight has deteriorated quite badly in the last few years so I would like to see a prominent indication of an enemy but one that doesn't clutter up the screen.
Obviously I am retired now, and have plenty of time to involve myself in my gaming, and MMO's in particular. Please don't be too long bringing out Alpha 2 as I might not still be on this planet.
That's why you use a combination of visual and sound cues,
With MMO's being primarily social games, almost all players I know have all game sounds turned off so that they can chat, even while just out soloing
You can't really use sound to communicate information to players.
If a game gives you information and you choose to ignore it then you can hardly blame the game for it...
Ashes has built in voice chat - if a game gives you the means to communicate with players via sound and also has information it wants to communicate to you via sound, you absolutely, 100% can blame that games utterly poor design for that.
People are generally not all that good at mentally breaking up multiple sources of sound. You either use sound for players communicating between each other, or you use sound for the game to communicate with players - never both.
Red glowing eyes are fine as an enemy indicator.
So, we agree well enough that there's no need for me to nitpick the rest.
Strongly disagree. Those are way easier to get lost in lighting conditions, weather, particle effects and obstructions more than a simple nameplate entry.
I agree.
I like the general idea of having an in game means to communicate level and intended audience to players without needing to rely on the UI (though players should have the option to have it communicated via the UI if they wish) - but just a glow around the mobs eyes is simply not enough.
That's why you use a combination of visual and sound cues,
With MMO's being primarily social games, almost all players I know have all game sounds turned off so that they can chat, even while just out soloing
You can't really use sound to communicate information to players.
If a game gives you information and you choose to ignore it then you can hardly blame the game for it...
Ashes has built in voice chat - if a game gives you the means to communicate with players via sound and also has information it wants to communicate to you via sound, you absolutely, 100% can blame that games utterly poor design for that.
People are generally not all that good at mentally breaking up multiple sources of sound. You either use sound for players communicating between each other, or you use sound for the game to communicate with players - never both.
to be fair I have yet to see any game that uses sound solely as an indicator, even Elden ring/souls games or monster hunter give you both sound and a visual que of a pose or otherwise before a big hit, so design wise I thought it would be obvious sound would only be part of the equation but my point still stands that if you willingly turn off game sounds then that is on you.
but my point still stands that if you willingly turn off game sounds then that is on you.
I'm unsure how this is a point to make.
If an MMORPG developer had audio queues in their game that players need to hear, then clearly that developer does not understand the genre they are developing for. As such, it is the players fault for subscribing to the game in the first place, as that was their mistake.
No MMORPG developer that is worth giving money to would ever require players to receive an audio queue.
As an aside, Ashes is building voice chat in to the game itself - so you can guarantee that there will not be any need to listen out for audio queues. There are almost certainly going to be optional audio queues, and that's great. However, they will be optional - meaning anything needed to be communicated to players needs another avenue.
Well really do think devs do not give enough information when asking questions just ask questions in the broadest sense.
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There will not be typical “zones” like you see in theme park mmorpgs where at level 10 you go here, level 20 you go here and so on. The difficulty of mobs will be in flux based on factors like the advancement of nearby nodes. You can go one place this week and fight level 10 mobs and go back to that same place next week and they are level 30 or vice versa. You could be fighting level 10 mobs and then go over the hill and run into something higher level.
I don’t believe you will quite see the dynamics of being in a dungeon with such radically different levels like you used in your example but I can definitely see a more targeted and defined variance from the start of a dungeon vs the end of one.
I think they speak so vaguely because they are legitimately trying to get peoples general preferences without bias, but it would probably be helpful to include links to their wiki pages regarding the topics they are asking about so people aren’t suggesting things entirely out of bounds from their vision.
Well would of been cool if they had mentioned all the info you just gzve me with the original question. Would make for better answers.
but my point still stands that if you willingly turn off game sounds then that is on you.
I'm unsure how this is a point to make.
If an MMORPG developer had audio queues in their game that players need to hear, then clearly that developer does not understand the genre they are developing for. As such, it is the players fault for subscribing to the game in the first place, as that was their mistake.
No MMORPG developer that is worth giving money to would ever require players to receive an audio queue.
As an aside, Ashes is building voice chat in to the game itself - so you can guarantee that there will not be any need to listen out for audio queues. There are almost certainly going to be optional audio queues, and that's great. However, they will be optional - meaning anything needed to be communicated to players needs another avenue.
So with your reasoning they shouldn't do the new node system or anything else new because it's not the genre everyone is already familiar with right?
Also I'm fairly sure audio cues are already a thing but judging by your statements you probably shut them off so you wouldn't even be aware of that. They don't tend to be very obvious just enough to make you aware, either whooshing noises for a swing or an impact on the ground before falling objects from a ceiling, etc, all usually tied to an animation which means if you are visually paying attention you would notice anyways.
I fail to see how Voice chat and audio indicators are exclusive, and yes I'm aware of your statement that people are unable to keep track of both which is also a false statement as that may apply to you but not someone else. Pretty sure there is people out there when listening to an orchestra can pick out a single instrument.
Anyways I'm done with this pointless back and forth, so thanks for sharing your opinion.
So with your reasoning they shouldn't do the new node system or anything else new because it's not the genre everyone is already familiar with right?
That isn't following my reasoning at all.
It isn't about just doing something new. It is about doing something that forces players away from playing the game in the way the developers want players to play the game.
Developers want players to form social bonds, to interact with each oth1er, make friends. A massive way players do this is via voice chat.
As such, developers don't want to add anything to get in players way of communicating via voice chat.
Now, I may be missing something - and if so feel free to explain it to me - but the node system does nothing at all to prevent players from using voice chat, nor does it prevent players from doing anything else that the developers would want players to do.
And yes, the game will have audio queues for those that want them. I'm not saying it shouldn't. Those audio queues just won't be the only way the game has of passing that information to players.
I think it might be best if the game marks guild members, alliance members, party members, raid members with name and even health or all stats like mana too and anyone who is not as listed above would be unmarked until engaged. It should help make pvp alot more engaging between not always knowing if the person you are attacking is a high level or not. As well to dress like a piece of garbage and sneak into a town would be nice.
So with your reasoning they shouldn't do the new node system or anything else new because it's not the genre everyone is already familiar with right?
That isn't following my reasoning at all.
It isn't about just doing something new. It is about doing something that forces players away from playing the game in the way the developers want players to play the game.
Developers want players to form social bonds, to interact with each oth1er, make friends. A massive way players do this is via voice chat.
As such, developers don't want to add anything to get in players way of communicating via voice chat.
Now, I may be missing something - and if so feel free to explain it to me - but the node system does nothing at all to prevent players from using voice chat, nor does it prevent players from doing anything else that the developers would want players to do.
And yes, the game will have audio queues for those that want them. I'm not saying it shouldn't. Those audio queues just won't be the only way the game has of passing that information to players.
<sighs> I don't mean to continue this but I will pip in on the fact that a good 80% and I'm probably being more then generous with this number of players don't use voice chat even when it is available, and this isn't me just talking randomly this is from experience and seeing guilds and how many players in said guilds would ever even bother getting on discord, including under pain of death (joke aside, even when mandatory only some more would get on)
So this whole voice chat thing is barely going to cover any of the playerbase and a lot of people will still use text.
Also you are taking liberties assuming what the developers are intending...
<sighs> I don't mean to continue this but I will pip in on the fact that a good 80% and I'm probably being more then generous with this number of players don't use voice chat even when it is available
This is very much subjective.
I've yet to play an MMO where even a single player in my guild didn't use voice chat. In fact, in most games I've played, we usually have more people in voice chat than we have logged in to the game.
Making the assumption that developers want players to form strong social bonds in an MMO is not at all taking liberties. When asked, most MMORPG developers will claim that this is the highest level goal they have for their game. It is basically the reason the genre exists.
The very plain and basic fact that Intrepid are developing voice chat for Ashes would suggest that it is you that is taking liberties here, not me. This fact that they are adding it means that regardless of your subjective experience on the matter, Intrepid place value in players being able to communicate with each other via voice chat.
You and your guild may not, but you and your guild are not, I assume, Intrepid.
<sighs> I don't mean to continue this but I will pip in on the fact that a good 80% and I'm probably being more then generous with this number of players don't use voice chat even when it is available
This is very much subjective.
I've yet to play an MMO where even a single player in my guild didn't use voice chat. In fact, in most games I've played, we usually have more people in voice chat than we have logged in to the game.
Making the assumption that developers want players to form strong social bonds in an MMO is not at all taking liberties. When asked, most MMORPG developers will claim that this is the highest level goal they have for their game. It is basically the reason the genre exists.
The very plain and basic fact that Intrepid are developing voice chat for Ashes would suggest that it is you that is taking liberties here, not me. This fact that they are adding it means that regardless of your subjective experience on the matter, Intrepid place value in players being able to communicate with each other via voice chat.
You and your guild may not, but you and your guild are not, I assume, Intrepid.
<facepalm> except I'm not the one constantly saying what the devs are or are not intending... I was just trying to point out your bad habit of doing exactly this but whatever, you obviously like to argue around things so I'm just gonna bow outa this like I originally intended.
<facepalm> except I'm not the one constantly saying what the devs are or are not intending... I was just trying to point out your bad habit of doing exactly this but whatever, you obviously like to argue around things so I'm just gonna bow outa this like I originally intended.
Social interaction is one of the stated design pillars of this game. That is why the game will have built in voice chat.
This is fairly basic and obvious stuff.
I am not stating what the developers are or are not intending, I am simply repeating what they have said. You are the one senselessly arguing against that for some reason.
Guys , don 't do like everyone else ! you have a unique project of your kind....here's an example for you:
===In order to see if u can smack that mob or not, there should simply be some visual indications: the uniqueness of the outfit, armor, or the aggressiveness of the mob itself relative to you, let him, for example, sniff the air, make a growl or vice versa whines with fear))I think that mobs should show some tension, worries etc.!
Waiting for your next dev blog stream
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
<facepalm> except I'm not the one constantly saying what the devs are or are not intending... I was just trying to point out your bad habit of doing exactly this but whatever, you obviously like to argue around things so I'm just gonna bow outa this like I originally intended.
(This back and forth will continue for 20 pages if you let it.)
Start off with your character not knowing anything. Hard Core No Indicators style. The more you kill of that species of monster (I assume we are talking PvE only with the way the questions are worded), the more granular and detailed the shown information gets, including even specific strengths and weaknesses on mouse-over at the highest levels of knowledge.
I am hoping we'll get a sort of bestiary in the game, where people can fill it out by interacting with all the creatures in Verra in some form. It doesn't always have to be from killing them.
I know you write "enemy", which could include players, but I would prefer you differentiate the systems between enemy players and enemy NPCs.
I 100% agree with Nerror. I think it would be fun to learn about the monsters without having it shown up front, but if I want to grind on a certain enemy I should start getting better information as I fight so I can kill them easier as I go.
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VirtekMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Tons of great ideas in here.
I'll hop in and second the idea of a shifting indicator.
Starts in "Hardcore" mode that shows next to nothing for information. The more often you encounter/slay them, you learn more about them. Further indicators will unlock, showing the name in different colors for difficulty and decorative nameplate borders indicating the intended group size and/or mob rarity.
When targeting an enemy have the name plate appear with information including difficulty by it's color, level showing, design hugging the plate if it is elite, different color design hugging the plate if it's a rare spawn and/or elite.
Display buffs and debuffs below the plate when targeted.
Distinctive border on a plate for bosses with no level or difficulty available.
For raiding purposes have the system in place where you can designate name plates of mobs with icons for easier communication for encounter engagement. (very important imo for large group play)
No "hardcore" mode. I don't think this is practical with death penalty involved.
Make sure mob name plates are very different from player name plates for encounters that involve pvp and monsters.
I'd prefer a general level color indicator:
Green (you're a bully),
Yellow (just don't pull too many),
Orange (one mob's probably enough),
Red (don't do it!).
For appropriate party size indicators, maybe just having the mob slightly bigger for small groups, a silver hue for larger groups and a gold hue for raid groups. A symbol next to their name could work too, instead.
The exact level seems superfluous, like at level 45 I'm not going to care if the mob is 44 or 45... That'd be like caring if it's 72° outside instead of 70°, all the same to me.
The no indicator thing would be annoying. Like some bunny from Monty Python randomly decapitates us, except we don't even have Tim warning us.
basic indicators for nomal mobs and then go more in to detail whit some of the elite and boss mobs like them not having a health bar but instead having indicators (fx the mob locking more and more injured/stuf falls of)
Comments
I don't believe Scalerunners will be telegraphing level disparity by body movements or sound, such that the behavior of the mob changes once you match or surpass the level of that specific mob.
And, I don't believe there is a way to translate those signals from a Scalerunner to an Amanita Verna to a Gibbering Maw such that we hear a Gibberig Maw and think, "Oh, that Gibbering Maw must be 3 levels higher than we are."
It's not about really about caution.
It's about threat assessment and determining whether the new mob is one level higher than what you've been farming, rather than 3-5 levels higher than what you've been farming. Is it slightly out of my league or is there really no hope for me to defeat it at my current level.
I don't see how it can add to exploration. The first thing I do when I level is explore as far as possible until I hit mobs that con as skulls. I'm already going to know the geography of the area where I'm farming.
Again, in Ashes, we can't really know the spots that are good for our current level because Ashes is dynamic, rather than static. Spots effectively level as Nodes progress from Stage to Stage building construction. Different types of mobs might appear based on changes in racial demographics.
The primary way you figure out if you need to come back later is by assessing the level disparity of the mobs; not simply by the level of an area. Because the level of an area changes.
I think I mentioned three alternatives.
But, no. When you go to an encounter, you don't simply think, "OK. I need to go level before I tackle this."
Most likely your encounter is going to be a match. You're on a quest and you assume the encounters nearby are going to be around the same level as the quest.
So, the first thing you think when you die is, "Oh. I need to tweak my tactics a bit."
Second thing you think is, "Oh, this mob is supposed to be my level so... maybe I need to upgrade my gear to BiS for my level."
Third thing you think is, "Hmmmn. Maybe there is some class ability my level that I haven't picked up yet."
Then you might realize, "OK, there is no way I can defeat this mob right now. I'm going to gain a couple levels and return.
But, you've probably died 6-10 times trying to figure all that out.
I don't understand how you can easily plan a leveling route when areas change levels and you have no easy means to assess the threat levels of the mobs in the area - especially since the mobs in the area change.
I also don't know what you mean by, "take away from the organic feeling of exploring a new area."
Again, the first thing I do when I level is explore the map as far as possible until I hit mobs that con as skulls.
It always feels organic and dangerous and I have to explore carefully in order to not aggro mobs that con red.
But, the issue really isn't even about exploring new areas. It's about new, higher level mobs appearing in old areas and being able to assess that they are so far out of your league that you won't be able to kill them until you gain some more levels.
Dying 6-10 times just to determine that the mob you're fighting is 3-5 levels higher than you are is not efficient.
I don't think anything I said counters a desire for a light UI.
I think most people prefer a light UI. That doesn't inherently mean that a light UI is practical.
Sure, there are people who believe having no health bars is more immersive - but it's actually not.
In real life, we have 5+ senses highly adapated to assessing health - for ourselves as well as for prey.
In a video game, we basically only have 2 senses to rely on: sight and sound. And, because Humans rely on sight more than sound (or smell), video game focus on visuals to display pertinent info.
The easiest way to provide visual info is via numbers. Ashes design foregoes numbers in the health bar.
So, we know the plan is to try something new with health bars. I expect the devs will try something new with enemy indicators also.
Again, it could be great to have to acquire an augment in order to reveal level disparity. We have to be Level 25+ to acquire class augments. People who don't want to use the enemy indicators wouldn't have to acquire those augments.
Just because some people use enemy indicators doesn't mean they have to be in the game by default and doesn't mean everyone always has to use them.
I haven't said anything like, "Having a light UI is bad game design."
What I have said is that we need some way to let us know that we're wasting our time thinking, "Oh, I just need to tweak what I have already," when really what we have to do is gain some levels.
Ultimately, the devs can figure out how to accomplish that.
If the devs can do so with "visual cues and sound", that's great!
We don't disagree on that, if it's possible.
Even if the in game indicator was only showing if a mob is significantly higher level than you, it would still have it's use in people that spend a lot of time in the game.
However, such a system would simply not work for people that do not spend as much time in the game.
If it hits me for 90% of my health I would be running away ASAP.
And how do you assess the level of each type of mobs? with UI, by looking at it, without, by figthing it, and the fact that it's dynamic makes it part of the game loop since you need to reassess when there are new elements.
I doubt that you would go as far as to die 6-10 times on a regular mob with experience debt being a thing. If it's a boss or something, you should have a general idea of its level with the damage you take, the damage you can do to it, and the fact that other people might have killed it already, it encourages social interactions.
If you do not understand some of the points I made and disagree on what is immersive or not then I guess we haven't played the same games and I do not think I can easily convey it to you if my previous message wasn't enough. An other key point is that to me "wasting" time is still playing the game, it's part of the gameplay, and after playing a game for a while you can very easily figure out what is overleved or not, it's up to you to decide how much time you're willing to spend on the same mob. Maybe you'll die 6-10 times on one particular mob once, but over time, you would probably move on after a single or a couple deaths, with penalties being a thing.
I don't believe the devs can use musical cues for us to distinguish which mobs in a horde are below our level, match our level and are above our level.
I also don't believe we want hordes of mobs to be playing a cacophony of sounds as we encounter them.
Again, I am not as concerned about the mobs are so far above level that the disparity is obvious from one hit as I am about the mobs that seem close to what I'm already farming, such that it seems like the problems we're having are due to tactics, ability selection or being undergeared for our level, when the real problem is level disparity.
I typically assess mobs primarily by the color of the name plate - not by mob type. Then I farm the mob type in the area I'm in. If, surprisingly, I am attacked by something I can't defeat in the area, I check the color of the name plate to see if it's supposed to be my level.
If it's supposed to be my level, I go through the steps I outlined.
I'm not talking about bosses. I'm talking about mobs that appear in an area where you have been farming, where you think the local mobs should match your level - although, they no longer match your level because a Node has progressed and/or a building has been constructed which changes the demographics of the mobs in your farming spot.
And, yes, it can be easy to die 6 times while trying to determine why you're suddenly wiping in an area where you have been farming successfully for some time - if you are testing parameters that aren't due to level disparity.
If the disparity is so great that one hit takes out 90% of your health, obviously, you know it's too high a level for you to fight. If it's a fairly close fight each time regardless of your change in tactics and gear-check and ability updates - yeah, you might finally realize that the mobs must no longer match your level.
Experience debt doesn't stop you from returning to an area to see if you can defeat that mob.
In my examples, we have already killed mobs that appear similar, so we already are the people who apparently have killed those mobs before. Also, when new mobs appear in an area, we may be the first group to encounter those mobs.
Again, Ashes is a dynamic gameworld.
You respond as if the gameworld is static.
In Ashes, combat is balanced around 8-person groups with one of each Primary Archetype.
I factored that into my examples. That's why I mentioned changing synergies - as one thing to try during threat assessment. As in, changing how you synergize your abilities with others in the group.
I already factored in the social aspect.
Which is also why I suggested having Class/Race/Religion/Social Org augments as a method of revealing level disparity.
I'm not going to play a game where I feel like I am wasting time.
That's a very valid feeling. But time isn't wasted if you're having fun, and chasing efficiency can suck the fun out of a game and turn it into a job. Time willingly "wasted" is good time spent, it's a game after all.
I am feeling like our discussion is steering away from the points originally brought up, so I propose we just move on
So, we agree well enough that there's no need for me to nitpick the rest.
You can't really use sound to communicate information to players.
Strongly disagree. Those are way easier to get lost in lighting conditions, weather, particle effects and obstructions more than a simple nameplate entry.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
What I meant is that we agree well enough that there should be some form of enemy indicator that's effectively like a colored nameplate. We seem to be generally in the same one of the three options provided in the OP.
I'm content to have the devs figure out the specifics of what it looks like.
I don't expect the devs to simply implement glowing eyes as the actual feature.
If a game gives you information and you choose to ignore it then you can hardly blame the game for it...
As for the overall topic, why not have a level indicator but not per individual enemy but rather for either the area or for whatever the highest level foe in a certain proximity to you.
Obviously I am retired now, and have plenty of time to involve myself in my gaming, and MMO's in particular. Please don't be too long bringing out Alpha 2 as I might not still be on this planet.
People are generally not all that good at mentally breaking up multiple sources of sound. You either use sound for players communicating between each other, or you use sound for the game to communicate with players - never both.
I agree.
I like the general idea of having an in game means to communicate level and intended audience to players without needing to rely on the UI (though players should have the option to have it communicated via the UI if they wish) - but just a glow around the mobs eyes is simply not enough.
to be fair I have yet to see any game that uses sound solely as an indicator, even Elden ring/souls games or monster hunter give you both sound and a visual que of a pose or otherwise before a big hit, so design wise I thought it would be obvious sound would only be part of the equation but my point still stands that if you willingly turn off game sounds then that is on you.
If an MMORPG developer had audio queues in their game that players need to hear, then clearly that developer does not understand the genre they are developing for. As such, it is the players fault for subscribing to the game in the first place, as that was their mistake.
No MMORPG developer that is worth giving money to would ever require players to receive an audio queue.
As an aside, Ashes is building voice chat in to the game itself - so you can guarantee that there will not be any need to listen out for audio queues. There are almost certainly going to be optional audio queues, and that's great. However, they will be optional - meaning anything needed to be communicated to players needs another avenue.
Well would of been cool if they had mentioned all the info you just gzve me with the original question. Would make for better answers.
So with your reasoning they shouldn't do the new node system or anything else new because it's not the genre everyone is already familiar with right?
Also I'm fairly sure audio cues are already a thing but judging by your statements you probably shut them off so you wouldn't even be aware of that. They don't tend to be very obvious just enough to make you aware, either whooshing noises for a swing or an impact on the ground before falling objects from a ceiling, etc, all usually tied to an animation which means if you are visually paying attention you would notice anyways.
I fail to see how Voice chat and audio indicators are exclusive, and yes I'm aware of your statement that people are unable to keep track of both which is also a false statement as that may apply to you but not someone else. Pretty sure there is people out there when listening to an orchestra can pick out a single instrument.
Anyways I'm done with this pointless back and forth, so thanks for sharing your opinion.
It isn't about just doing something new. It is about doing something that forces players away from playing the game in the way the developers want players to play the game.
Developers want players to form social bonds, to interact with each oth1er, make friends. A massive way players do this is via voice chat.
As such, developers don't want to add anything to get in players way of communicating via voice chat.
Now, I may be missing something - and if so feel free to explain it to me - but the node system does nothing at all to prevent players from using voice chat, nor does it prevent players from doing anything else that the developers would want players to do.
And yes, the game will have audio queues for those that want them. I'm not saying it shouldn't. Those audio queues just won't be the only way the game has of passing that information to players.
<sighs> I don't mean to continue this but I will pip in on the fact that a good 80% and I'm probably being more then generous with this number of players don't use voice chat even when it is available, and this isn't me just talking randomly this is from experience and seeing guilds and how many players in said guilds would ever even bother getting on discord, including under pain of death (joke aside, even when mandatory only some more would get on)
So this whole voice chat thing is barely going to cover any of the playerbase and a lot of people will still use text.
Also you are taking liberties assuming what the developers are intending...
I've yet to play an MMO where even a single player in my guild didn't use voice chat. In fact, in most games I've played, we usually have more people in voice chat than we have logged in to the game.
Making the assumption that developers want players to form strong social bonds in an MMO is not at all taking liberties. When asked, most MMORPG developers will claim that this is the highest level goal they have for their game. It is basically the reason the genre exists.
The very plain and basic fact that Intrepid are developing voice chat for Ashes would suggest that it is you that is taking liberties here, not me. This fact that they are adding it means that regardless of your subjective experience on the matter, Intrepid place value in players being able to communicate with each other via voice chat.
You and your guild may not, but you and your guild are not, I assume, Intrepid.
<facepalm> except I'm not the one constantly saying what the devs are or are not intending... I was just trying to point out your bad habit of doing exactly this but whatever, you obviously like to argue around things so I'm just gonna bow outa this like I originally intended.
Social interaction is one of the stated design pillars of this game. That is why the game will have built in voice chat.
This is fairly basic and obvious stuff.
I am not stating what the developers are or are not intending, I am simply repeating what they have said. You are the one senselessly arguing against that for some reason.
Facepalm indeed.
===In order to see if u can smack that mob or not, there should simply be some visual indications: the uniqueness of the outfit, armor, or the aggressiveness of the mob itself relative to you, let him, for example, sniff the air, make a growl or vice versa whines with fear))I think that mobs should show some tension, worries etc.!
Waiting for your next dev blog stream
I 100% agree with Nerror. I think it would be fun to learn about the monsters without having it shown up front, but if I want to grind on a certain enemy I should start getting better information as I fight so I can kill them easier as I go.
I'll hop in and second the idea of a shifting indicator.
Starts in "Hardcore" mode that shows next to nothing for information. The more often you encounter/slay them, you learn more about them. Further indicators will unlock, showing the name in different colors for difficulty and decorative nameplate borders indicating the intended group size and/or mob rarity.
When targeting an enemy have the name plate appear with information including difficulty by it's color, level showing, design hugging the plate if it is elite, different color design hugging the plate if it's a rare spawn and/or elite.
Display buffs and debuffs below the plate when targeted.
Distinctive border on a plate for bosses with no level or difficulty available.
For raiding purposes have the system in place where you can designate name plates of mobs with icons for easier communication for encounter engagement. (very important imo for large group play)
No "hardcore" mode. I don't think this is practical with death penalty involved.
Make sure mob name plates are very different from player name plates for encounters that involve pvp and monsters.
Green (you're a bully),
Yellow (just don't pull too many),
Orange (one mob's probably enough),
Red (don't do it!).
For appropriate party size indicators, maybe just having the mob slightly bigger for small groups, a silver hue for larger groups and a gold hue for raid groups. A symbol next to their name could work too, instead.
The exact level seems superfluous, like at level 45 I'm not going to care if the mob is 44 or 45... That'd be like caring if it's 72° outside instead of 70°, all the same to me.
The no indicator thing would be annoying. Like some bunny from Monty Python randomly decapitates us, except we don't even have Tim warning us.