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Dev Discussion #40 - Enemy Indicators

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Comments

  • MrPocketsMrPockets Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Necc wrote: »
    In an era where people can just search everything up, i see no point for a full hardcore approach, especially IF the game design will be around some progress loss on death (imagine being one shot by some random trashmob while exploring which is actually a high level elite) or if the player has to pass between areas as they progress separated by a high level area intentionally placed between the two.

    This is my main concern. What is this purpose of death in this game? Is it something to be feared? (ie: losing progress, waste of time) Or a tool to discover the world? (ie: no progress loss, easy to get back to where you died)

    If death is to be feared, and players are not given enough information to make solid decisions - then the non-hardcore players (the lifeblood of any MMO) will most likely have a rough time being convinced to stick around.

    I can see the complaints already: "This game is unfair", "I lost 2 levels trying to travel to a new city", "This game wastes too much of my time"
    Whereas if there are just general strength indicators (normal, elite, boss), this at least gives those non-hardcore players something to inform them.

    Now, if the intent of death is to be a tool to discover things, you need to design the respawn in a way to compliment that. If I die to an unknown mob after traveling for 15 min to get to a location of interest, and then have to make that 15 min run again, to just avoid that mob next time...there is a good chance I just stop playing for the night.
    If instead after dying, it only took a minute or two to get back to what I was doing, I'll probably keep playing.

  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    edited April 6
    Dygz wrote: »
    If you're kicking a ball on a baseball diamond, you are probably playing kickball and don't need the same skill set or playfield analysis as you need for soccer.

    Sure, if it's a game where all you're relying on is tiers of gear to defeat mobs and what determines mob level is distance from starting zone - you don't need a threat assessment tool.

    I hear you. I know I’m pushing on the categorical expectations v. the experience. It could be kickball, it could be squishier, not quite Calvinball, but not as hard and fast as a fixed like ‘this is definitely college baseball’. I mean we didn’t pick up a bow in an ES game and get freaked out by a cross-hair like “This isn’t an FPS - I don’t know what to do.” 🥴

    Let’s say we want to limit definite indicators on mobs - just to play on the greenfield. What are the other qualities a mob would exhibit that would indicate how strong or weak it might be to fight?

    I would also expect outliers (Monty Python bunnies for example) to keep us on our toes. But for the most part, I’d like the approach to make the player work for it, instead of hand holding.

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    More like we wouldn't know what to do without a cross-hair in an FPS even if we don't have them in tab-target games.
    I don't need a cross-hair if it's tab-target combat. I'm going to want a cross-hair if it's free-aim.
  • CinidaeCinidae Member
    edited April 7
    Minimalistic with a color indication for level difference to have a general idea if the enemy is super weak/strong (More as in grey = no exp / red = one shots you / no differentiation for strong enemies that you are still able to flee from). Maybe a skull/border differentiation to indicate elite/boss monsters connected for intended party size, dying together can be fun, alone it's not. A system like BDO where the healthbar does not show precise information for remaining HP as long as you have not gathered information/knowledge about the mob would be nice as well.

    In generall I would prefer a system where you have a vague understanding of what you are up against to have some guidance where to go, especially as a new player, but without being too specific and ruin the surprise, sense of adventure/exploration.

    EDIT: After reading a little bit more of other peoples opinions i wanna throw in my hat with the "people will use the wiki to look it up" argument". I dont think there will ever be a game again where you can develop a system that can't be "predictable" or simplyfied by players looking it up. The game should deliver all the information it intends to the player in game. If the devs want to be vague to make it possible for players to have an immersive experience they should do so, if the player decides to look stuff up thats their choice to make.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Noaani wrote: »
    As i said before, you will have quests guiding you towards level appropriate mobs so you will learn most of this info by playing the game.
    That just sounds a bit too theme park for my liking - if you want to know where the level appropriate mobs are, you have to do these quests.

    Players should be able to just roam around and find level appropriate content in any MMO, but especially in a game like Ashes.

    And nothing is stopping them. As i said, you only need to figure out the level of one mob in the area, which takes one damage ability, to figure out an areas level.
    smallerLizard.jpg
  • Happymeal2415Happymeal2415 Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited April 7
    Noaani wrote: »
    As i said before, you will have quests guiding you towards level appropriate mobs so you will learn most of this info by playing the game.
    That just sounds a bit too theme park for my liking - if you want to know where the level appropriate mobs are, you have to do these quests.

    Players should be able to just roam around and find level appropriate content in any MMO, but especially in a game like Ashes.

    And nothing is stopping them. As i said, you only need to figure out the level of one mob in the area, which takes one damage ability, to figure out an areas level.

    I don't get how your suggestion is too theme parky but having a banner above mob saying "you must be this tall to fight this mob" isn't
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Noaani wrote: »
    As i said before, you will have quests guiding you towards level appropriate mobs so you will learn most of this info by playing the game.
    That just sounds a bit too theme park for my liking - if you want to know where the level appropriate mobs are, you have to do these quests.

    Players should be able to just roam around and find level appropriate content in any MMO, but especially in a game like Ashes.

    And nothing is stopping them. As i said, you only need to figure out the level of one mob in the area, which takes one damage ability, to figure out an areas level.

    It takes one death, for the most part.

    All that death is telling you is that these mobs are too strong for you. it isn't telling you if your gear is lacking, or if your tactics need work, or if the mobs are 20 levels above you. All it is telling you is that they can kill you easily.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Noaani wrote: »
    As i said before, you will have quests guiding you towards level appropriate mobs so you will learn most of this info by playing the game.
    That just sounds a bit too theme park for my liking - if you want to know where the level appropriate mobs are, you have to do these quests.

    Players should be able to just roam around and find level appropriate content in any MMO, but especially in a game like Ashes.

    And nothing is stopping them. As i said, you only need to figure out the level of one mob in the area, which takes one damage ability, to figure out an areas level.

    I don't get how your suggestion is too theme parky but having a banner above mob saying "you must be this tall to fight this mob" isn't

    The definition of a theme park MMO is one in which players are on a set content path. You do a piece of content which leads you to the next piece of content, which leads you to the net piece of content.

    A quest that tells you where level appropriate content is located is literally the definition of theme park. Giving players information on mobs is literally not the definition - regardless of how you want to skew things.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    As i said before, you will have quests guiding you towards level appropriate mobs so you will learn most of this info by playing the game.
    That just sounds a bit too theme park for my liking - if you want to know where the level appropriate mobs are, you have to do these quests.

    Players should be able to just roam around and find level appropriate content in any MMO, but especially in a game like Ashes.

    And nothing is stopping them. As i said, you only need to figure out the level of one mob in the area, which takes one damage ability, to figure out an areas level.

    It takes one death, for the most part.

    All that death is telling you is that these mobs are too strong for you. it isn't telling you if your gear is lacking, or if your tactics need work, or if the mobs are 20 levels above you. All it is telling you is that they can kill you easily.

    As i said, if necessary, add an effect, like glowing eyes, that signals to the player if a mob has that much of a level advantage.
    smallerLizard.jpg
  • HeartbeatHeartbeat Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    edited April 7
    Personally as long as the entirety of the HUD/UI or w/e it is of the enemy, being its healthbar/name/lvl and all that other stuff isn't super huge or take up a large part of the screen then I don't care if there's no indicator except the name of the enemy, all the way to every indicator of the enemy.

    BUT, if I HAD to choose i would choose no indicators except the name, it encourages the player to explore more and that feeling of mystery of if I fight this mob will it 1 shot me or will i 1 shot it, or will it be a close fight.

    But if there are buffs in-game that increases dmg to, or reduces dmg taken from certain types of mobs, then that should clearly be shown.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    As i said before, you will have quests guiding you towards level appropriate mobs so you will learn most of this info by playing the game.
    That just sounds a bit too theme park for my liking - if you want to know where the level appropriate mobs are, you have to do these quests.

    Players should be able to just roam around and find level appropriate content in any MMO, but especially in a game like Ashes.

    And nothing is stopping them. As i said, you only need to figure out the level of one mob in the area, which takes one damage ability, to figure out an areas level.

    It takes one death, for the most part.

    All that death is telling you is that these mobs are too strong for you. it isn't telling you if your gear is lacking, or if your tactics need work, or if the mobs are 20 levels above you. All it is telling you is that they can kill you easily.

    As i said, if necessary, add an effect, like glowing eyes, that signals to the player if a mob has that much of a level advantage.

    Or... add a level indicator either above their head, or on their target pane (players choice).

    If your issue is not wanting a cluttered screen, argue for UI customization - not for forcing every player to have the UI you want.
  • OddObiOddObi Member
    Call me crazy but.. I'd like a pretty minimal system (maybe a hover for information style indicators) but with the option to turn them off completely for the more hardcore players.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I'll add that during the Alpha there was a very fine tuned point where I was able to fight really high level enemies, but if I was even one level off I would be plant food. It saved me time and frustration knowing the audience and strength of the mob. I got fun challenges as a result.

    But honestly? It also was the thing making it a viable and fun activity. I would not have pursued this without the knowledge. Dying to figure out the edge of an enemies level when the range is that fine tuned isn't a viable option and didn't solve 'level range.' Even if I look at the wiki for level ranges, having no tell for power level is just too much of a time sink. You would need a visible tell of level for a mob to prevent this and at that point you might as well just put it on a name plate or gauge strength function to save resources for other things.
    Where in the world IS Carmen Sandiego. Anyone seen her recently? Asking for a friend.
  • DrMotleyDrMotley Member
    I for one would like to know the level of whatever i am fighting. Even a zone indicator notifying you that the enemies in the area are much higher than you would be greatly appreciated.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    As i said before, you will have quests guiding you towards level appropriate mobs so you will learn most of this info by playing the game.
    That just sounds a bit too theme park for my liking - if you want to know where the level appropriate mobs are, you have to do these quests.

    Players should be able to just roam around and find level appropriate content in any MMO, but especially in a game like Ashes.

    And nothing is stopping them. As i said, you only need to figure out the level of one mob in the area, which takes one damage ability, to figure out an areas level.

    It takes one death, for the most part.

    All that death is telling you is that these mobs are too strong for you. it isn't telling you if your gear is lacking, or if your tactics need work, or if the mobs are 20 levels above you. All it is telling you is that they can kill you easily.

    As i said, if necessary, add an effect, like glowing eyes, that signals to the player if a mob has that much of a level advantage.

    Or... add a level indicator either above their head, or on their target pane (players choice).

    If your issue is not wanting a cluttered screen, argue for UI customization - not for forcing every player to have the UI you want.

    I think we are getting into preferences here and a point where we agree to disagree. I'd rather we not use a hud/interface element if we don't have to and you want one.
    smallerLizard.jpg
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited April 8

    I think we are getting into preferences here and a point where we agree to disagree. I'd rather we not use a hud/interface element if we don't have to and you want one.

    I think more to the point - you want to have it represented in game, I want it in the UI.

    I see literally no reason at all why it needs to be one or the other.

    If you have a reason as to why it should not be a UI option for those that want it, but that can be disabled leaving the in game indicators for those that don't want it in the UI, I'd like to hear it.

    To me, this is not a case of agree to disagree. This is a case of you telling people how to play the game, and me telling Intrepid to make the game so people can play the way they want (within the scope of this topic).
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited April 8
    Noaani wrote: »

    I think we are getting into preferences here and a point where we agree to disagree. I'd rather we not use a hud/interface element if we don't have to and you want one.

    I think more to the point - you want to have it represented in game, I want it in the UI.

    I see literally no reason at all why it needs to be one or the other.

    If you have a reason as to why it should not be a UI option for those that want it, but that can be disabled leaving the in game indicators for those that don't want it in the UI, I'd like to hear it.

    To me, this is not a case of agree to disagree. This is a case of you telling people how to play the game, and me telling Intrepid to make the game so people can play the way they want (within the scope of this topic).

    We are going in circles.

    If UI provides more info or is a quicker/more convenient way to take in that info, it provides an advantage and becomes the way to play. It makes other methods of play obsolete so no, you aren't allowing people to play the way they want.

    Should the best gear you earn from high end content be given to players who reach level 20 because people want to play that way? If not, then i guess you want to tell people how to play.
    smallerLizard.jpg
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Yeah. You don't have to agree. The devs will make a decision.
  • 1sab3la1sab3la Member
    Noaani wrote: »

    I think we are getting into preferences here and a point where we agree to disagree. I'd rather we not use a hud/interface element if we don't have to and you want one.

    I think more to the point - you want to have it represented in game, I want it in the UI.

    I see literally no reason at all why it needs to be one or the other.

    If you have a reason as to why it should not be a UI option for those that want it, but that can be disabled leaving the in game indicators for those that don't want it in the UI, I'd like to hear it.

    To me, this is not a case of agree to disagree. This is a case of you telling people how to play the game, and me telling Intrepid to make the game so people can play the way they want (within the scope of this topic).

    You cant have it both ways. If anyone needs to explain why idk what else to say. By giving the choice you might as well leave whatever option/s on. No one or very few would turn it off if both options are in. Why I personally do not want any at all I would not put myself at a disadvantage just so I can think I'm cooler. Not a problem in solo rpg but the option cannot coexist together in a mmo. Its simple what do you want question.
  • pyrealpyreal Member, Warrior of Old
    edited April 9
    Old School

    It tells the player whether they have a chance at beating an enemy.

    Its a nice feeling when you see the color over that mob change; you know you're progressing.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Noaani wrote: »

    I think we are getting into preferences here and a point where we agree to disagree. I'd rather we not use a hud/interface element if we don't have to and you want one.

    I think more to the point - you want to have it represented in game, I want it in the UI.

    I see literally no reason at all why it needs to be one or the other.

    If you have a reason as to why it should not be a UI option for those that want it, but that can be disabled leaving the in game indicators for those that don't want it in the UI, I'd like to hear it.

    To me, this is not a case of agree to disagree. This is a case of you telling people how to play the game, and me telling Intrepid to make the game so people can play the way they want (within the scope of this topic).

    We are going in circles.

    If UI provides more info or is a quicker/more convenient way to take in that info, it provides an advantage and becomes the way to play. It makes other methods of play obsolete so no, you aren't allowing people to play the way they want.

    I disagree.

    The game should have options for more information on a games UI than any player would want, and then leave it up to each player to decide what information they value and what they can do without.

    If the eye thing you talk about is suitable at all as a means of telling if a mob is a suitable level, then it is suitable and people can opt to use that instead of displaying that on the UI. On the other hand, if it is not suitable, then the entire idea of having it as the only option is suddenly invalid.

    This is why you can indeed have things both ways. Different people value things differently - some value information over screen real estate, some are the other way around. The game absolutely should give players the freedom to make choices in this regard.
  • 1sab3la1sab3la Member
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    I think we are getting into preferences here and a point where we agree to disagree. I'd rather we not use a hud/interface element if we don't have to and you want one.

    I think more to the point - you want to have it represented in game, I want it in the UI.

    I see literally no reason at all why it needs to be one or the other.

    If you have a reason as to why it should not be a UI option for those that want it, but that can be disabled leaving the in game indicators for those that don't want it in the UI, I'd like to hear it.

    To me, this is not a case of agree to disagree. This is a case of you telling people how to play the game, and me telling Intrepid to make the game so people can play the way they want (within the scope of this topic).

    We are going in circles.

    If UI provides more info or is a quicker/more convenient way to take in that info, it provides an advantage and becomes the way to play. It makes other methods of play obsolete so no, you aren't allowing people to play the way they want.

    I disagree.

    The game should have options for more information on a games UI than any player would want, and then leave it up to each player to decide what information they value and what they can do without.

    If the eye thing you talk about is suitable at all as a means of telling if a mob is a suitable level, then it is suitable and people can opt to use that instead of displaying that on the UI. On the other hand, if it is not suitable, then the entire idea of having it as the only option is suddenly invalid.

    This is why you can indeed have things both ways. Different people value things differently - some value information over screen real estate, some are the other way around. The game absolutely should give players the freedom to make choices in this regard.

    You really can't give the option. It'll never work. Might as well leave everything on because no one would put themselves at a disadvantage. Your understanding of value and opinions lack basic thought on how things would play out
  • vixirixvixirix Member
    edited April 9
    I prefer no indicators on the characters themselves, games are most immersive when you can't see the health of the opponent directly on the player. World of Warcraft, Skyrim, and notably Mordhau have this style of not having the opponent's health obstruct the opponent.

    Having indicators for health and mana should be kept to the top left corner in my humble opinion.

    I'm not sure if that suits Old School or Hardcore No Indicators (TTRG) Style format as suggested but my vote would be less is more, so probably leaning towards Hardcore No Indicators (TTRG) Style.

    On the subject of indicators, for secret hidden doors and invisible walls, I'd prefer there also to be no indicators on how to open some doors and invisible walls. Maybe you have to do a certain gesture or emote at a door to open it, but some things are better left without indication, even putting obscure hints in some far off map to how to open said secret doors could be too much of a hint for some ultra secret doors. If you want secret content to be discovered for years to come, maybe put some ultimate weapons behind secret doors that have no indication on how to open them (maybe you need a few rare world items in your inventory to open the secret doors/invisible walls)
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited April 9
    1sab3la wrote: »
    You really can't give the option. It'll never work. Might as well leave everything on because no one would put themselves at a disadvantage. Your understanding of value and opinions lack basic thought on how things would play out
    Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

    It's not like Noaani is going to ever say, "You've convinced me. Now, I agree."

    Detecting secret hidden doors and invisible walls will be utility skills for some Primary Archetypes.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited April 9
    1sab3la wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    I think we are getting into preferences here and a point where we agree to disagree. I'd rather we not use a hud/interface element if we don't have to and you want one.

    I think more to the point - you want to have it represented in game, I want it in the UI.

    I see literally no reason at all why it needs to be one or the other.

    If you have a reason as to why it should not be a UI option for those that want it, but that can be disabled leaving the in game indicators for those that don't want it in the UI, I'd like to hear it.

    To me, this is not a case of agree to disagree. This is a case of you telling people how to play the game, and me telling Intrepid to make the game so people can play the way they want (within the scope of this topic).

    We are going in circles.

    If UI provides more info or is a quicker/more convenient way to take in that info, it provides an advantage and becomes the way to play. It makes other methods of play obsolete so no, you aren't allowing people to play the way they want.

    I disagree.

    The game should have options for more information on a games UI than any player would want, and then leave it up to each player to decide what information they value and what they can do without.

    If the eye thing you talk about is suitable at all as a means of telling if a mob is a suitable level, then it is suitable and people can opt to use that instead of displaying that on the UI. On the other hand, if it is not suitable, then the entire idea of having it as the only option is suddenly invalid.

    This is why you can indeed have things both ways. Different people value things differently - some value information over screen real estate, some are the other way around. The game absolutely should give players the freedom to make choices in this regard.

    You really can't give the option. It'll never work. Might as well leave everything on because no one would put themselves at a disadvantage. Your understanding of value and opinions lack basic thought on how things would play out

    Perhaps you are not picking up on the more subtle point I am making.

    Imagine the game offers players the choice to have a level indicator on mobs nameplate if they want it, but also has the glowing eye effect to show level (or level gap) that was suggested above.

    You are saying that if this were the case, literally all players would opt to show the level on the nameplate.

    Now, I am not going to say I agree or disagree with you as to what most player would do here, because that is honestly not important. What I will say is - if Intrepid were to then decide to only implement one of the above (level on nameplate or the eye thing), since everyone would pick level on nameplate if given the chance - that is the one option they should implement.

    Essentially, the argument against having it now basically boils down to "everyone would opt to use it if it were an option, so don't make it an option", which seems a little daft to me.
  • clone63clone63 Member
    A huge irritant of mine is stuff in the actual world view like .. rings under the sprite, floating numbers, levels, highlighting everything in colours for some reason when it's targeted.. splashy messes. I want the actual battle I'm watching to be as organic and natural as possible. The info needed about the respective target should be in the name card that's on the top of the screen (or wherever you put it). I want to be immersed in the battle, which is especially hard when multiples show up.

    An option to scout things out and keep the screen clean would be a seperate smaller card with less info of the enemy you simply mouse over (not the active target) which would represent you taking a quick assessment of the creatures around you. If you're confident in you abiltiy, or feeling haphazard, its not something you'd need to do.

    So basically- Hard core man, keep it clean
  • peksipeksi Member
    To maximize immersion it should follow real beast behavior: beasts that are stronger than you are more confident and weaker are more submissive, possibly trying to escape - depending on the nature of the beast. Some may even not bother with you at all or seek to make friends. Would make crazy exiting and unpredictable play!

    It is not so easy to implement in the first place but I bet you guys could use this kind of power index for every creature. Probably you got one already.
  • OrbificatorOrbificator Member, Pioneer, Kickstarter
    edited April 10
    A combination of a Hardcore and classic style is what I would prefer.

    I'll be attempting to play this game as a cool single-player but online RPG so I'll have as little UI as I need.

    But, as someone else stated, hiding too much info pushes people to wikis.
  • Old school, please. Just the basics.
  • RednamRednam Member
    I like the idea of not knowing about something until I've encountered it. I assume an area we are in would give us any foreknowledge of what might be around.

    I dont like the idea of the different levels of indicators... If you are in a Raid, isnt it obvious that the enemies would be harder?
    Vaknar wrote: »

    Keeping 8 player party sizes in mind, would you prefer solo, party, raid, or more precise solo, small party, medium party, large party, small raid, and or full raid indicators?

    Hard Core No Indicators (TTRPG) Style: You do not know the power of the enemy, nor it's intended audience until you encounter and learn about it through your combat experience.

    Are there alternative features and systems you don’t see listed above that you like? If so, what are they?

    Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion topic regarding RNG!

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