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Dev Discussion #40 - Enemy Indicators

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  • And whatever you land with, have it able to be on or off in settings. Everyone happy 😊
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  • SourdoughbredSourdoughbred Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Put me in the "less is more" category, while also allowing me to endorse some of the previously proposed enhancements:

    1. From the beginning, the most immersive method of implementation is to give me NOTHING and make me assume everything I encounter is potentially deadly. As a player who has always tended to play squishy classes with a focus on avoiding getting hit in the first place, and an understanding that if I DO get hit I'm QUICKLY in trouble, I PREFER to approach every encounter with the assumption that I'm likely to die. Once I have fought the same sort of entity a number of times, however, I have developed a sense IRL of how to approach the situation and would therefore accept if my character likewise had developed a greater sense of the specifics of a particular encounter. A system whereby certain details of a creature's strengths/weaknesses become known the more times I have encountered them is intriguing and also would help to address some of the concerns voiced by those who fear too LITTLE information will drive an undesirably large portion of the community to seek external sources of information rather than learning by experimentation. The thought of a system whereby one individual could learn details regarding a creature and then TEACH those details to another for a fee is even more entertaining, presenting an entirely new viable career path.

    2. If possible, making the level of information available a setting with multiple options would provide the greatest degree of day-one satisfaction to the greatest segment of the community. Allowing those who simply can't bring themselves to approach an encounter without every single detail already in front of them would be happy, while those of us who actually wish to play an immersive game rather than a computerized rewards delivery system (sarcastic, hurtful tone towards adherents to the modern MMO model recognized and intentional) can have a return to the sense of wonder and danger that has been removed from games over the years by the proliferation of more and more detailed CON systems.
  • I think intended audience indicators are the best choice. I think that harder enemies should have some special health bar compared to normal enemies and there should be some way to tell what level the enemy is that way people don't accidently get into situations where they get one shot with no chance of winning.
  • Having interesting visual cues that indicate danger relative to your own character.

    For example, when an enemy is more powerful it produces a red or black "aura" in the form of smoke or ash particles. And maybe withholding indicators on first encounter but if the player dies then comes back or retreats they then can "sense the danger". Perhaps having visual threat indication could help produce awareness of danger while reducing UI elements.

    Overall, more Old School but obscure information in certain situations to give a feeling of challenge and discovery.
  • Happymeal2415Happymeal2415 Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    fabula wrote: »
    because they didn't want to take the risk.

    I mean a pillar of the game design is risk vs reward. If people do not want to risk stuff they cant expect to do much in this game.

    Part of risk vs reward is understanding the risk you are putting yourself up for.

    If you don't know what the risk is, it isn't risk vs reward, it's roll-the-dice vs reward.

    I mean it's not dice roll either. You know your own stats. Your own gear. Your own capability as a player and whatever previous experience you have from the game. Then you try and solve the puzzle that is currently in front of you.

    Yeah, but if that puzzle is "is the mob in front of me level 10 or level 50", and you do not have information on it at all (that information is what this topic is about - you say you don't want players having it at all), then what even is this puzzle you speak of?

    Lol not having the information is the puzzle? if you have all the information it literally isnt a puzzle. You dont play sudoku with all the numbers already put in.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Noaani wrote: »
    A minimal UI is part of it but I think a bigger part is a preference for the UI to playing less of a role in the game, especially when it comes to exploration and combat. More looking at in-game visuals then the UI.
    From previous discussions, I seem to remember you being somewhat keen on the notion of people being able to play the game in their own way.

    In this thread, you also seem somewhat keen on the idea of the information on a mob being made available to players, just via in game means and not UI.

    Now, since the system in question is about information and not necessarily about the UI, since you are fine with players have that information and since you are not one to want to tell others that they have to play the game the way you want to, it would seem to me (and correct me if I am wrong) that your actual preference here is that you don't care too much about what system is used, as long as the information is displayed in game as well as in the UI, and players that want a minimal UI are able to turn that aspect of the UI off and rely on the in game representation.

    Would that not be more accurate as a representation of your position?

    That would be accurate in a world where it was that simple.

    It might help to think about it in a more practical since. We both know that i was not asking them to put a level number on the monster's head. I'd prefer they use visual queues to help a player access the monster. Some queues may need to be learned but I'm not sure how many are necessary. If the UI provides any more information then what can be seen in the game or is more convenient to view, then it makes consuming that info through the game obsolete, which is the issue.

    On the other side, can you tell me why you feel so strongly about the UI having this info? What are you worried about? Maybe by addressing those fears, you would understand my perspective more.

    I know you mentioned you were worried about a player attacking a monster that had such a high level margin, it one shots them. If that is an issue, monsters that have an extreme level advantage could have an effect on them, like glowing eyes.
    smallerLizard.jpg
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    I’d prefer hardcore. I trust we can figure it out.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    fabula wrote: »
    because they didn't want to take the risk.

    I mean a pillar of the game design is risk vs reward. If people do not want to risk stuff they cant expect to do much in this game.

    Part of risk vs reward is understanding the risk you are putting yourself up for.

    If you don't know what the risk is, it isn't risk vs reward, it's roll-the-dice vs reward.

    I mean it's not dice roll either. You know your own stats. Your own gear. Your own capability as a player and whatever previous experience you have from the game. Then you try and solve the puzzle that is currently in front of you.

    Yeah, but if that puzzle is "is the mob in front of me level 10 or level 50", and you do not have information on it at all (that information is what this topic is about - you say you don't want players having it at all), then what even is this puzzle you speak of?

    Lol not having the information is the puzzle? if you have all the information it literally isnt a puzzle. You dont play sudoku with all the numbers already put in.

    I thought the idea of an MMO was to play the game - not to play some other game like soduku.

    If a developer wants to put some content in a game behind a puzzle, that's great. However, that isn't what you are saying here - you are saying that literally all content in Ashes should be behind such a puzzle.

    I mean, by your argument here, we may as well make it so that we need to play Pac-Man, or do a crossword in order to be able to fight some random solo mob.

    That is quite literally the argument you are using here. is that really the argument - or the game - you want to go with?
  • ElriElri Member
    Get rid of player nameplates too. People want to hide in bushes and behind trees.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Elri wrote: »
    Get rid of player nameplates too. People want to hide in bushes and behind trees.

    Lol. I love the idea but as a bounty hunter I must decline due to insufficient target detection.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Neurath wrote: »
    as a bounty hunter I must decline due to insufficient target detection.

    Maybe as a bad Bounty Hunter. 🤣. Bounty Hunting needs to be somewhat difficult - no push notifications when you’re within a hundred yards.

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Maybe as a bad Bounty Hunter. 🤣. Bounty Hunting needs to be somewhat difficult - no push notifications when you’re within a hundred yards.

    Not sure what u reference here. I haven't seen any Bounty Hunter mechanics in action. What I referenced was relational to both pvp and pve. Namely, I don't want to have to explain how to identify a target in a group situation. Name calls, locations and beacons should be preplanned or rapid repositions.

    In real war everyone wears flags, identifiers and uniforms. In an MMO half the creatures are exotic, fantasy creatures which everyone will describe differently.
  • AykiuAykiu Member
    Having bosses/elites unique named(without any additional icons) would be good enough for me as for pve indicators.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited April 3
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    fabula wrote: »
    because they didn't want to take the risk.

    I mean a pillar of the game design is risk vs reward. If people do not want to risk stuff they cant expect to do much in this game.

    Part of risk vs reward is understanding the risk you are putting yourself up for.

    If you don't know what the risk is, it isn't risk vs reward, it's roll-the-dice vs reward.

    I mean it's not dice roll either. You know your own stats. Your own gear. Your own capability as a player and whatever previous experience you have from the game. Then you try and solve the puzzle that is currently in front of you.

    Yeah, but if that puzzle is "is the mob in front of me level 10 or level 50", and you do not have information on it at all (that information is what this topic is about - you say you don't want players having it at all), then what even is this puzzle you speak of?

    Lol not having the information is the puzzle? if you have all the information it literally isnt a puzzle. You dont play sudoku with all the numbers already put in.

    I thought the idea of an MMO was to play the game - not to play some other game like soduku.

    If a developer wants to put some content in a game behind a puzzle, that's great. However, that isn't what you are saying here - you are saying that literally all content in Ashes should be behind such a puzzle.

    I mean, by your argument here, we may as well make it so that we need to play Pac-Man, or do a crossword in order to be able to fight some random solo mob.

    That is quite literally the argument you are using here. is that really the argument - or the game - you want to go with?

    You got em.

    All puzzles are crossword puzzles and pac-man. I guess instead of fighting monsters in raids, we should just play pac-man or do crossword puzzles.

    When you enter an raid/instance, do you think the UI should explain all the bosses mechanics? While a mechanic is happening, should there be text that tells the user exactly what they should do?
    smallerLizard.jpg
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Neurath wrote: »
    Not sure what u reference here. I haven't seen any Bounty Hunter mechanics in action. What I referenced was relational to both pvp and pve. Namely, I don't want to have to explain how to identify a target in a group situation. Name calls, locations and beacons should be preplanned or rapid repositions.

    In real war everyone wears flags, identifiers and uniforms. In an MMO half the creatures are exotic, fantasy creatures which everyone will describe differently.

    Yep, no argument on the lack of info on bounty hunting. My point above was that I want bounty hunting to be difficult, like actually have to work to track down the target. I don’t need a specific indicator saying corrupted, cause I have the target’s name and crime on the bill when I took the contract. Overall, less is more.


    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack

    When you enter an raid/instance, do you think the UI should explain all the bosses mechanics? While a mechanic is happening, should there be text that tells the user exactly what they should do?

    Raids are those encounters I mentioned where if developers want to add some puzzle components to, they can have at it.

    The problem is, when we are talking about this system, we are talking about adding a puzzle to literally every mob in the game.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Not sure what u reference here. I haven't seen any Bounty Hunter mechanics in action. What I referenced was relational to both pvp and pve. Namely, I don't want to have to explain how to identify a target in a group situation. Name calls, locations and beacons should be preplanned or rapid repositions.

    In real war everyone wears flags, identifiers and uniforms. In an MMO half the creatures are exotic, fantasy creatures which everyone will describe differently.

    Yep, no argument on the lack of info on bounty hunting. My point above was that I want bounty hunting to be difficult, like actually have to work to track down the target. I don’t need a specific indicator saying corrupted, cause I have the target’s name and crime on the bill when I took the contract. Overall, less is more.


    Yes, I agree. Remember the risk/reward aspect of BH. In the current (recent?) Concepts (old?), that when active the BH is flagged to the target.

    I did used to request nameplate to be hidden for BH when active to prevent reprisals.

    These days I like the idea of a wild west styled performance plus potential.

    Cheers,
    Neu
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited April 4
    Noaani wrote: »

    When you enter an raid/instance, do you think the UI should explain all the bosses mechanics? While a mechanic is happening, should there be text that tells the user exactly what they should do?

    Raids are those encounters I mentioned where if developers want to add some puzzle components to, they can have at it.

    The problem is, when we are talking about this system, we are talking about adding a puzzle to literally every mob in the game.

    Assuming you want the UI to show level and maybe things like "elite" status, then, similar to instances, every mob still has abilities and resistances that have to be learned. You also might want to learn about the mobs drops.

    In your system, every mob is still a "puzzle." Only difference is that the overall power level isn't part of it.
    smallerLizard.jpg
  • Happymeal2415Happymeal2415 Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited April 4
    That is quite literally the argument you are using here. is that really the argument - or the game - you want to go with?
    No what I typed was the one I want to go with not that gibberish you just vomited out
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Noaani wrote: »

    When you enter an raid/instance, do you think the UI should explain all the bosses mechanics? While a mechanic is happening, should there be text that tells the user exactly what they should do?

    Raids are those encounters I mentioned where if developers want to add some puzzle components to, they can have at it.

    The problem is, when we are talking about this system, we are talking about adding a puzzle to literally every mob in the game.

    Assuming you want the UI to show level and maybe things like "elite" status, then, similar to instances, every mob still has abilities and resistances that have to be learned. You also might want to learn about the mobs drops.

    In your system, every mob is still a "puzzle." Only difference is that the overall power level isn't part of it.
    In 20 years of playing MMO's, I've yet to see a solo mob - and only about 3 group mobs - that have information you need to know going in to them other than level and general power. In other words, I utterly refute the entire premise of what you are saying here as being utterly ridiculous.

    Further, you know it to be utterly ridiculous, and the argument that you are now making is not even an argument that you yourself believe.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited April 4
    That is quite literally the argument you are using here. is that really the argument - or the game - you want to go with?
    No what I typed was the one I want to go with not that gibberish you just vomited out

    Ok, Ill use smaller words for you.

    You are claiming that it is ok to not provide players with the level of mobs in an MMO, because you don't start a sudoku with all the numbers present.

    Since the point of a sudoku is to fill out the numbers, your argument here is simply not valid. The MMO equivalent of a sudoku with all the numbers filled out would be a game with all the mobs already dead.

    The sudoku equivalent of being told the level and general power of a mob in an MMO would be being told if a given sudoku is beginner, intermediate or expert level - which is information that basically all publishers of sudoku provide.

    I hope that was easy enough for you to understand. In short, you are making the wrong argument.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    The sudoku analogy falls flat though because the numbers can only be arranged one way to ‘win.’ In an MMO there are a number of ways to tackle a mob with a larger number of variables and how those variables are arranged. Meaning one puzzle could have ten different paths to win.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • Happymeal2415Happymeal2415 Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    That is quite literally the argument you are using here. is that really the argument - or the game - you want to go with?
    No what I typed was the one I want to go with not that gibberish you just vomited out

    Ok, Ill use smaller words for you.

    You are claiming that it is ok to not provide players with the level of mobs in an MMO, because you don't start a sudoku with all the numbers present.

    Since the point of a sudoku is to fill out the numbers, your argument here is simply not valid. The MMO equivalent of a sudoku with all the numbers filled out would be a game with all the mobs already dead.

    The sudoku equivalent of being told the level and general power of a mob in an MMO would be being told if a given sudoku is beginner, intermediate or expert level - which is information that basically all publishers of sudoku provide.

    I hope that was easy enough for you to understand. In short, you are making the wrong argument.

    Again a bunch of vomit salad. Instead of trying to repeat my argument back to me in some altered favorable way to yourself actually come up with a counter? Regardless of word size
  • Happymeal2415Happymeal2415 Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    CROW3 wrote: »
    The sudoku analogy falls flat though because the numbers can only be arranged one way to ‘win.’ In an MMO there are a number of ways to tackle a mob with a larger number of variables and how those variables are arranged. Meaning one puzzle could have ten different paths to win.

    Of course it does. I'm not making a direct comparison saying they are equal. I'm saying this one aspect of sudoku should apply to mmos
    As I said earlier. You have all your own stats, own gear, level skill and your prior experience within the game to draw upon to solve the problem. Those are the sudoku numbers you a provided with.
  • MrPocketsMrPockets Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Seems like a lot of people like the idea of discovery and mystery (aka hardcore/no indicators), but I think it sounds better on paper than in reality.

    In theory, this means people will be dying more often because they don't know if an enemy is within their level range. If the consequences for dying are too high (loss of exp, spawn back at town, etc), there is no way this doesn't push away the masses that are required to make this game great.
  • PercimesPercimes Member
    MrPockets wrote: »
    Seems like a lot of people like the idea of discovery and mystery (aka hardcore/no indicators), but I think it sounds better on paper than in reality.

    In theory, this means people will be dying more often because they don't know if an enemy is within their level range. If the consequences for dying are too high (loss of exp, spawn back at town, etc), there is no way this doesn't push away the masses that are required to make this game great.

    I don't think the dying will be the most frustrating part: it will be fighting a tough foe and not getting any XPs because it was too low level for you, it's just that it was intended for a group. I hate elite mobs...

    Many seem to fantasize about thing being hard because they're mysterious and unknown, that amassing knowledge of the world is rewarding because it gives you power, an edge over those who have not yet. They never seem to consider how short lived mysteries are. Past the first encounter, hiding the mob info serves little purpose.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited April 4
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    When you enter an raid/instance, do you think the UI should explain all the bosses mechanics? While a mechanic is happening, should there be text that tells the user exactly what they should do?

    Raids are those encounters I mentioned where if developers want to add some puzzle components to, they can have at it.

    The problem is, when we are talking about this system, we are talking about adding a puzzle to literally every mob in the game.

    Assuming you want the UI to show level and maybe things like "elite" status, then, similar to instances, every mob still has abilities and resistances that have to be learned. You also might want to learn about the mobs drops.

    In your system, every mob is still a "puzzle." Only difference is that the overall power level isn't part of it.
    In 20 years of playing MMO's, I've yet to see a solo mob - and only about 3 group mobs - that have information you need to know going in to them other than level and general power. In other words, I utterly refute the entire premise of what you are saying here as being utterly ridiculous.

    Further, you know it to be utterly ridiculous, and the argument that you are now making is not even an argument that you yourself believe.

    I'm not sure what you think my argument is. I've have played games where mob levels weren't visible and i didn't find it to be a big deal which is all i'm trying to demonstrate here. I think you have an exaggerated perception of how this would play and i'm trying to break that.

    I doubt you have never experienced this in your 20 years of playing. I'm sure you never found it a big deal (because it isn't) but i bet there are little things like when a mob runs to friends or casts a spell that have forced you to change your approach i.e. learning you need to silence healing spells.

    As i said, if there is an issue with players unknowingly attacking mobs that are too strong, there are ways to warn the player with a simple effect.
    smallerLizard.jpg
  • First of all in my opinion it is not necessary and probably undesirable to have one mob be equally hard for for example a mage or a warrior. Usually this ends up in mobs on your intdended level being a walk in the park which I find quite unsatisfying. I prefer to have classes with different strengths which will naturally result in one class having an easier time with a certain mob then others which then have an easier time because of their skillset on different mobs. Thinking this further an intended level in numbers or even small ranges might not really be helpful.

    If a zone is content for a small level 30 group or a single 40 player for example is in my opinion up to the player as long as you dont dictate it by meaningless item drops and other artificial restrictions. It might support group play a lot if a zone's mob difficulty covers a large range and is mixed throuout the map. Something like a level 40 -45 zone where people at these levels can just turn off their brains while soloing there are just boring.

    So unless you add a mechanic that artificially binds players to killing mobs that are roughly their intended level like hit rating WoW or petrification/silence for bosses in Lineage II, I don't see the necessity to put much information or any at all about mob strength on the target.

    I'd much more prefer indirect and immersive indicators for mobs that are harder (beeing it higher level or group/raid group content) for example:
    - environment detail: skulls or corpses lying around, a more elaborate looking room than the ones of the henchmen, ...
    - mob's appearance: more elaborate clothing, bigger in size, ...
    - skillbased: Since we already have the option to find hidden stuff, it might also be nice to find clues to an opponents strength, weakness, skillset and the like in the area around the mob or even during a quest. Another idea I like is an knowledge skill you could advance in about a certain type of mobs or skills they have that are similar to your own skills or class

    Probably there are a lot more of those kind of immersive indicators than I just listed. I know many of them are typical character design but they are only real indicators if used somewhat consistently (or at least not on random weak mobs)
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    MrPockets wrote: »
    In theory, this means people will be dying more often because they don't know if an enemy is within their level range. If the consequences for dying are too high (loss of exp, spawn back at town, etc), there is no way this doesn't push away the masses that are required to make this game great.

    That’s one possible outcome. Another segment of players will realize that mob is too high level or hits too hard and run away. A subset of that segment will take the risk to test a different strategy to beat the mob. A different subset will stay away and come back later. But all of these players learned through an experience instead of just being told.

    IMO there is more longitudinal value for a player to learn on their own via experience than being spoonfed. Healthier for everyone involved.

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I'm not sure why we can't have a system where we learn about mobs the more we interact/kill them. I can't remember which game it was I played with it. Combined with no nameplates it would be cool. Veterans could shield greener troops from greater threats.
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