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Class Augment Theorycraft
HumblePuffin
Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
We already know some of the class skill augments but there are way more that we don’t know. I’m going to take my best stab at what they could be based off of skills we know and a whole lot of wild speculation. What do you think they could be? I’ll put the ones we have a clearer idea on in bold. Obviously even the hints they’ve given us are subject to change.
Mage
Teleportation
Elemental School
Fire
Frost
Lightning
Tank
Threat generation
Defense/various mitigation buffs
Terrain creation
Grabs/Pulls
Cleric
Life(heals)
Death(Resurrection of some sorts? )
Holy damage
Dispels(?)
Rogue
Critical Chance/damage
Stealth
Poisons/Bleeds
Disorients/blinds/snares
Bard
Buffs based based on your primary; possibly group wide
Debuffs based on your primary
Soft CC like sleeps, infatuates confuses
Illusions/Misdirects
(I struggled to think of a fourth, maybe one of the others gets broken up)
Ranger
Stealth/illusion detection
Range increase on abilities
Mobility that lets you create distance: jump backs, speed increases
Traps/delayed damage.
Fighter
Dashes/mobility that lets you close distance
Shields/temporary damage ignore
Buffs to weapons/weapon skills
I really struggled to think of a fourth for this one; to parallel with Ranger:
Close range proficiency on abilities
Summoner
All of these I think are going to involve summoning something since that’s kinda just what this archetype does. I have no clue how they would end up breaking it down. I feel like they would generally be temporary manifestations of the skill they are augmenting. Maybe something like:
Stationary summons
One time/short term summons one attack/maybe a few seconds
Temporary minions last 5 minutesish
Temporary armor/Weapon summons
So few are actually known or alluded to. What do you think each archetypes augments will end up being?
Mage
Teleportation
Elemental School
Fire
Frost
Lightning
Tank
Threat generation
Defense/various mitigation buffs
Terrain creation
Grabs/Pulls
Cleric
Life(heals)
Death(Resurrection of some sorts? )
Holy damage
Dispels(?)
Rogue
Critical Chance/damage
Stealth
Poisons/Bleeds
Disorients/blinds/snares
Bard
Buffs based based on your primary; possibly group wide
Debuffs based on your primary
Soft CC like sleeps, infatuates confuses
Illusions/Misdirects
(I struggled to think of a fourth, maybe one of the others gets broken up)
Ranger
Stealth/illusion detection
Range increase on abilities
Mobility that lets you create distance: jump backs, speed increases
Traps/delayed damage.
Fighter
Dashes/mobility that lets you close distance
Shields/temporary damage ignore
Buffs to weapons/weapon skills
I really struggled to think of a fourth for this one; to parallel with Ranger:
Close range proficiency on abilities
Summoner
All of these I think are going to involve summoning something since that’s kinda just what this archetype does. I have no clue how they would end up breaking it down. I feel like they would generally be temporary manifestations of the skill they are augmenting. Maybe something like:
Stationary summons
One time/short term summons one attack/maybe a few seconds
Temporary minions last 5 minutesish
Temporary armor/Weapon summons
So few are actually known or alluded to. What do you think each archetypes augments will end up being?
0
Comments
1: Teleportation
2: Elemental (Fire, Frost, Lightning...)
3: Mana Drain/Regen
4: ??
I was pretty torn as far as elemental as a school went. Depending on how it goes it could cause some interesting interactions with the current system.
Steven has been rather consistent with saying there will be 4 schools for each secondary; if you lump elemental all into one category then how would it go?
Do you choose elemental augment and your skill gets a random elemental effect out of the elemental possibilities each time it’s cast?
Does the elemental augment actually give mage 6+ augment choices?
Or maybe the elemental augments only apply specific elements to specific skills i.e. skill X will always have frost applied to it when elemental augments are chosen or skill Y will always have fire applied when elemental augments are chosen?
Other than that I forgot that mana regeneration was tied to mage so I’ll have to think of another for the cleric’s augments.
Mana Drain/Regen is just a guess based on the Mage Active Skills we know.
Schools mean that there are several choices of augments in each School.
Btw, we would have to choose only one school of augment for the character or we can choose different schools for different spells?
Anyway, for the mage class, here is an idea with augments to blink spell as an example:
- Teleportation: Now a mage has 2 charge/instances of blink which get refreshed at whatever the cooldown is. So back to back blinks are a possibility.
- Mana regen/burn/steal: Blink causes mana burn in an AoE. Basically rank 2, causes mana burn alongside damage. Spells like fireball can either mana steal or mana burn.
- Elemental: Applies a DoT to all the players in an AoE, spell type would be frost in this case (my preference, hehe). DoT causes some damage and reduces movement speed. For other spells it can be fire or lightning based. Basically this will give the devs more freedom to choose how to augment a spell using various elements rather than sticking to only one.
- Arcane: This augment makes the damage type of the spells pure. Arcane resistance is stuff of legends as in available only as a part legendary items...maybe some 1-5% from epic gear... But this is a balancing issue.
Anyway, I will be playing a rogue. The last category I dont agree with - Disorients/blinds/snares. Reasons being:
- It has a possibility of being either broken or extremely underwhelming.
- Rogues arent suppose to man up in a fight, so to speak. So, augments like blind/disorient are counter-intuitive.
These are my thoughts. I am not completely opposed to it, but would prefer some other avenue of augments.
You are not tied to a specific augment school for your whole build, but each primary class ability will only be able to be augmented by one class augment.
My rogue class augments other than crit and stealth which have been specifically talked about, were assumed based on this quote from Steven on how he views the class:
“The rogue is more physical disable oriented: Applying bleeds or snares or having precision damage that's situational. Being stealthy. That's kind of how I view the rogue role... The rogue's like you don't see me, I'm coming in and boom I stab you in the back and I do extra damage because of it. Now you're bleeding and you're trying to snare away and walking away, and that's kind of a rogue in my opinion.[3]” – Steven Sharif
We might have 10 examples of specific augments - probably a bit less.
I'm expecting Shadow to be one of the Rogue augment Schools. If that includes Stealth and Damage, then...
I think Snares/Traps seems likely for a the 4th Rogue augment School.
Mage
Teleportation
Elemental
Magic Weapons Specialization
Magic Damage Specialization
Tank
Threat generation
Damage mitigation
Physical Hard Crowd Control
Shield/Reflect Specialization
Cleric
Life (Heals and regens)
Death (Drains and dots)
Barriers Specialization
Holy damage Specialization
Rogue
Critical Specialization
Damage over Time Specialization
Physical Disable (Soft-mid CC) Specialization
Evasion/Stealth Specialization
Bard
Buffs (self or party)
Debuffs (single target or aoe)
Magical Hard Crowd Control
Magical Disable (Soft-mid CC) Specialization
Ranger
Accuracy Specialization
Mobility Specialization
Traps Specialization
Bow Specialization
Fighter
Duel Specialization (smaller scale conflicts 1v1 to 4v4)
Skirmish Specialization (bigger scale conflicts 8v8 or bigger)
Melee Weapons Specialization
Physical Damage Specialization
Summoner
Certainly the hardest to predict which way intrepid will approach with them, alot of games have very different approaches to summoning, but i believe the most universal concept/form of summoning is manifesting something or someone through time and space to your presence which directly correlates to the concept of teleportation (which already is a school for mage) but does not address the concepts of time and space separately. So i believe it would be cool if the summoner would provide these schools.
Time(Mainly influencing skills durations, cooldowns, attack/cast times)
Space(Mainly Influencing the size of AoEs skills, the Range of skills)
Summoning Specialization
Summons enhancement Specialization
The lack of information we currently have just make those things full on speculations and shots in the dark.
Aren't we all sinners?
Time.
Space.
Specialised Summons.
Demonology.
I merged your enhanced summons and summons together James, because in my mind each augment school is an enhancement.
I really like the take on a summoner summoning through space and time to bring an entity to life in Verra, and in a sense controlling space and time. I think something like that would provide a really cool depth to the class and open it up to some really interesting abilities.
I don’t know why I had overlooked these categories in @JamesSunderland’s post
The logic behind the enhancement school would be further enhancing the summons provided by the summoning school, but as i expect that not all skills will provide a summon, some proving enchancement would be logical, merging those 2 is quite reasonable.
But how about that Demonology school, seems interesting could you elaborate?
Like summoners/summons originally having a demonic trait or something?
Aren't we all sinners?
Demonology is unlikely to be a Summoner augment School.
Most likely that will be the manifestation of Warlock Summons, specifically - rather than a universal Summoner School. As Undead will be the manifestation of Necromancer Summons, specifically.
Makes sense, demonic summons would better fit Warlocks Summoning Specialization.
Funny thing about warlocks in Lineage 2 was that they summoned Cats instead of Demons
Aren't we all sinners?
All x/Summoners share the same 4 augment Schools.
Each augment in a School changes when applied to a specific Primary Archetype Active Skill.
So... Demonology would not be a universal Summoner augment School.
Rather, whatever that School is -"Summon [object/creature]"- whatever it is the devs might label that School...
Bladecallers would Summon blades.
Warlocks would Summon demons.
Falconers would Summon animals/birds.
Songcallers would Summon songs(?).
Shaman would Summon spirits(?).
Summoner is an Archetype.
Class is a combo of Primary Archetype and Secondary Archetype.
Summoner is not a class.
Warlock is a class. Mage/Summoner.
Demonologist is not an Ashes class.
In the other thread you appeared clueless and always seem to want to reverse all of my input. The situation remains that I made the suggestion and I won't change my mind. The fact you want to erase the demonologist into a warlock just because you don't want summoner to have the option is damn disgraceful. The ironic thing is both conjurer and warlock would have had the option.
I guess some people will have to say goodbye to the elementals which might have been born from the specialised summons too with your game plan.
By the way, you can keep pasting the same stuff over and over again but I do try to show my appreciation, respect and support with ideas which can be considered with no quid pro quo.
Demonologist is not a thing in Ashes.
I'm off to dance class now and will explain it again to you later.
What you have just shown is the fact that there is a demonologist except you want to relabel the demonologist as Warlock. I understand you like to quote and paste. What I am trying to make you see is the fact that we have actual issues which can be resolved with my suggestion.
Here is the current list of pet summons for Summoner from wiki which you seem to never read:
Summoners summon different summons, depending on the class and augments they choose.[6][13]
Animals.[13]
Spirits.[13][14]
Zombies, skeletons and other undead creatures.[7][14]
Corpses (potentially).[13]
Some summoners may summon multiple things.[13]
Other summoners may only summon one powerful thing.[13]
Certain summoners may only be able to summon effects and/or temporary energies.[13]
Augments from a secondary archetype can be applied to a summons.
I want to highlight the fact that some Demons are Undead. Summoner already has access to Undead. All I am proposing is Demons (Demonology) is moved to augmentation rather than the base class. The devs know my opinion on summoned weapons and my desires elsewhere - which would go in Specialised Summons by the way, so I really do not feel the need to worry about anything you wish to reveal later.
Edit: Here is the reason why I want my Shaman to have Demons:
Shamanism, religious phenomenon centred on the shaman, a person believed to achieve various powers through trance or ecstatic religious experience. Although shamans’ repertoires vary from one culture to the next, they are typically thought to have the ability to heal the sick, to communicate with the otherworld, and often to escort the souls of the dead to that otherworld.
Scholars generally agree that the shaman acquires his profession through inheritance, instruction, or an inner calling or vocation, but each of these terms requires some qualification. In this context, “inheritance” means that the soul of a dead shaman, or alternatively the so-called shaman illness, is inherited. “Instruction” here does not usually mean the study of exact knowledge and explicit dogma, for it is believed that the shaman is taught by the spirits. The inner “calling” is in reality not the call of the person but of the spirit who has chosen him and who forces him to accept this vocation. This compulsion is unavoidable.
I’d be an exponential nightmare! 😳
What a traditional Demonologist does is irrelevant because Demonologist does not exist in Ashes.
Ashes classes were not created by class name, first.
Ashes classes were created by combining Primary and Secondary Archetypes first. Then, the devs assigned a motif to each combination.
Primary Archetypes do not have augment Schools, rather Secondary Archetypes have augment Schools.
All x/Summoners have the exact same 4 augment Schools.
x/Summoners do not have individual augment Schools based on class name. None of the augment Schools are specific to a class.
Instead, all x/Summoners have the exact same 4 augment Schools.
If you look at the class names you will not find a class named Demonologist.
The closest to Demonologist is probably Warlock.
And Warlock is a class; not an Archetype.
So, while a Warlock might very well Summon a demon (and elementals are typically a subset of demon), all x/Summoners will not be Summoning demons.
Thus, Demonolgy will not be one of the Summoner augment Schools.
Just as Blades will not be one of the Summoner augment Schools.
Just as Songs will not be one of the Summoner augment Schools.
Shamans will not be Summoning demons.
Shamans will not be Summoning blades.
Necromancers also will not be Summoning demons, rather, they will be Summoning zombies and skeletons.
Songcallers will not be Summoning demons.
Bladecallers will not be Summoning demons.
Keepers will not be Summoning demons.
Falconers will not be Summoning demons.
Especially because Falconers will not be Summoning demons, Demonology cannot be an x/Summoner augment School because all x/Summoners have the exact same 4 augment Schools.
It’s when the Secondary Archetype augment is applied to a Primary Archetype Active Skill that the Active Skill changes to fit the motif of the class.
Cleric/Summoner (Shaman) will most likely be Summoning Spirits and Totems via their Secondary Archetype augments.
If you want your Cleric/Summoner (Shaman) to Summon demons, that will most likely be via Religion augments.
Your description of what you want your “shaman” to do is great.
That does not mean that the class the devs have labeled Shaman will actually be the class that fits most closely with the “shaman” you want to create.
Mark 1:13:14
Damokles: If I'm a Tank/Mage or a Fighter/Mage, are the Mage abilities the same?
Steven: The Mage augment is the same grouping, but the way it affects the Active Skill --
You only receive Active Skills from your Primary Archetype... and then it gets augmented by your Secondary choice.
Jeffrey: And those augments are different for each class. So a Mage affects a Fighter differently than a Mage affects a Cleric.
Steven: Exactly. Yes, but the augment School, it will yield a different effect because the base Active Skill is different, but the parent augment...
Jeffrey: The School...
Steven: ...is the same, like Teleportation, Elemental.
So, like, you take the Mage groupings of augments (Schools) - you have Teleportation and Elemental - those two things get applied to different Active Skills based on your Primary Archetype.
Jeffrey: With different outcomes.
Mark 1:05:05
Keep in mind that it's not 64 vastly different classes.
Which is why each Secondary Archetype (8 total) only has 4 augment Schools associated with it.
Rather than all 64 classes having unique augment Schools.
The Tank/ Mage and the Fighter/Mage both have the exact same 4 Mage augment Schools.
Because they can't have all their abilities be summoning related... Sounds like too passive of gameplay to be in this game.
They're going to have to have some kind of direct damage, heals, or buff spells to use with their summons.
A while back I wrote up a little theory craft on how summoners could work that would be fun compared to most pet classes of yester'year... I wonder if I can find it.
Here is the summoner one
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/50101/summoner-desire-compilation-and-analysis-conversion#latest
Will be very disappointed if Rogue secondary doesn't provide some kind of vanish/stealth skill. This quote makes me question if it will, because vanish/stealth seems like a new skill rather than an augment.
Of course, that disappointment will be within the context of Ashes looking like it will be the most amazing game ever.
I never mean to make essays. I'm used to writing books and creating whatever I want in secret.
I mean, it wouldn't need to. One could easily make it so that certain skills could receive a stealth style augment that causes you to disappear when you use it. I'd expect to put this on buffs or similar. Even a damage dealing skill that has you vanish at the end is still useful because technically if you miss, it should still result in misdirection.
If anything, it would probably be more balanced this way, since 'being able to put the stealth/vanish augment on every skill' would lead to very difficult battles if the skills it was being put onto weren't mostly 'the kind where vanishing after them doesn't help you'.
A Conjurer is a Summoner/Summoner.
Those are not identical classes.
The augment Schools represent core aspects of the Secondary Archetype.
So, expect that Stealth/Invis will be an x/Rogue augment School just as Teleport and Elemental are x/Mage augment Schools.
So melee strikes that created an opportunity for a better pet attack, buffs that also effect the target's pet (if any), ranged magical attacks that damage a pet and it's controller (making X/Summoner potentially an Anti-Pet build).
So "Bonded" might be a Summoner Augment that might spread the effect between a Pet and its Controller. "Generous" might be an augment that amplifies the effect if the target is a pet. That would leave two other stylistic augments for Summoner.