Class Augment Theorycraft

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AeuqaELjFg&t=3904s
Mark 1:05:05

Keep in mind that it's not 64 vastly different classes.
Which is why each Secondary Archetype (8 total) only has 4 augment Schools associated with it.
Rather than all 64 classes having unique augment Schools.

The Tank/ Mage and the Fighter/Mage both have the exact same 4 Mage augment Schools.

SirChancelot

Personally I think summoners would have to have a school that doesn't really have to do with summons, some kind of targetable spells that can be used on allies or summons. (Time and space don't sound bad, but sound a little too high end extra in a way...)
Because they can't have all their abilities be summoning related... Sounds like too passive of gameplay to be in this game.
They're going to have to have some kind of direct damage, heals, or buff spells to use with their summons.

A while back I wrote up a little theory craft on how summoners could work that would be fun compared to most pet classes of yester'year... I wonder if I can find it.

What a warlock does is irrelevant because the synonym of warlock is conjurer. Therefore, we have two identical classes. Either warlock should be replaced with demonlogist or summoner augment should allow demonology so everyone is happy (no more requests for the corruption system to be a viable evil playstyle).

SirChancelot

@Azherae did a series of wants/likes/theorycraft for each archetype
Here is the summoner one

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/50101/summoner-desire-compilation-and-analysis-conversion#latest

Electronn

Dygz wrote: »

Steven: The Mage augment is the same grouping, but the way it affects the Active Skill --
You only receive Active Skills from your Primary Archetype... and then it gets augmented by your Secondary choice.

Will be very disappointed if Rogue secondary doesn't provide some kind of vanish/stealth skill. This quote makes me question if it will, because vanish/stealth seems like a new skill rather than an augment.

Of course, that disappointment will be within the context of Ashes looking like it will be the most amazing game ever.

I haven't blocked any specialised summons which would cover your thread. What I defined was the pinnacle setup for a summoner which culminates in demonology. The debate is not designed to prevent personal choice. The debate is about increasing personal choice.

I never mean to make essays. I'm used to writing books and creating whatever I want in secret.

mcnasty wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Steven: The Mage augment is the same grouping, but the way it affects the Active Skill --
You only receive Active Skills from your Primary Archetype... and then it gets augmented by your Secondary choice.

Will be very disappointed if Rogue secondary doesn't provide some kind of vanish/stealth skill. This quote makes me question if it will, because vanish/stealth seems like a new skill rather than an augment.

Of course, that disappointment will be within the context of Ashes looking like it will be the most amazing game ever.

I mean, it wouldn't need to. One could easily make it so that certain skills could receive a stealth style augment that causes you to disappear when you use it. I'd expect to put this on buffs or similar. Even a damage dealing skill that has you vanish at the end is still useful because technically if you miss, it should still result in misdirection.

If anything, it would probably be more balanced this way, since 'being able to put the stealth/vanish augment on every skill' would lead to very difficult battles if the skills it was being put onto weren't mostly 'the kind where vanishing after them doesn't help you'.

Neurath wrote: »

What a warlock does is irrelevant because the synonym of warlock is conjurer. Therefore, we have two identical classes. Either warlock should be replaced with demonlogist or summoner augment should allow demonology so everyone is happy (no more requests for the corruption system to be a viable evil playstyle).

A Warlock is a Mage/Summoner.
A Conjurer is a Summoner/Summoner.
Those are not identical classes.

mcnasty wrote: »

Will be very disappointed if Rogue secondary doesn't provide some kind of vanish/stealth skill. This quote makes me question if it will, because vanish/stealth seems like a new skill rather than an augment.

Of course, that disappointment will be within the context of Ashes looking like it will be the most amazing game ever.

Steven says that Stealth is one of the core aspects of Rogue.
The augment Schools represent core aspects of the Secondary Archetype.
So, expect that Stealth/Invis will be an x/Rogue augment School just as Teleport and Elemental are x/Mage augment Schools.

Balanz

Based on the discussions I have heard about Combat Pets being generally available (if you put the effort into acquiring them, which apparently is quite significant), it could be the case that Summoner Augments would synergize with Pets.

So melee strikes that created an opportunity for a better pet attack, buffs that also effect the target's pet (if any), ranged magical attacks that damage a pet and it's controller (making X/Summoner potentially an Anti-Pet build).

So "Bonded" might be a Summoner Augment that might spread the effect between a Pet and its Controller. "Generous" might be an augment that amplifies the effect if the target is a pet. That would leave two other stylistic augments for Summoner.

Please read the wiki before you make large entries. Personal pets, combat pets and summoner pets don't mix.

However, you can use animal husbandry to create summoned pets according to the wiki (summoner main I believe).

Dygz is incapable of theory crafting and prefers to never have direct involvement in a conversation insteas dygz just has canned phrases and loves to waste everyone's time.

Edit: I can see why familiar faces are missing. I'm pleased I don't actually have to prove anything to dygz. Ultimately, I have no time to go in circles. I should learn that anyone who does not know what stats are should not be expected to assist original ideas.

Electronn

Azherae wrote: »

One could easily make it so that certain skills could receive a stealth style augment that causes you to disappear when you use it

Love this idea. Specifically for a Cleric primary Archetype. Big heal + cleanse debuffs/dots + vanish. Would be so fun in a group PVP scenario when healer is being targeted.

UNLIMITED POWERRRRRR

I'm curious. If summoner does not have access to demons - the pinnacle of summoning, what would 1x generic pet school actually give a base summoner?

Neurath wrote: »

I'm curious. If summoner does not have access to demons - the pinnacle of summoning, what would 1x generic pet school actually give a base summoner?

It's actually for exactly this sort of reason that I ended up racking my brain for so long as to how exactly this would be done, and had to end up suggesting the Rings and 'Hands' in the post.

25 early levels without even being able to define your summons as different, then suddenly they all change entirely, just seemed too odd.

I hope the solution was elegant, even if Intrepid never uses it (once again, absolutely free to) because I really can't stand designs that break themselves before you even begin.

rings and hands? I'd have hoped that would just be part of demonology. I love the idea, but, I try to give a blanket suggestion so the devs have creative freedom rather than plotting out a full roster of my personal ideas on the ability rosters.

My issue is dygz relies on 1x generic pet school to block my requests. However, I don't see rings and hands as pets.

The other issue remains that arcane and summons is Deomologist and not Warlock. I suspect Dygz might be a warlock player. I should probably focus more on getting demons for my shaman rather than trying to bolster all the summoner classes.

I appreciate the ability to get involved and theory craft.

Neurath wrote: »

rings and hands? I'd have hoped that would just be part of demonology. I love the idea, but, I try to give a blanket suggestion so the devs have creative freedom rather than plotting out a full roster of my personal ideas on the ability rosters.

My issue is dygz relies on 1x generic pet school to block my requests. However, I don't see rings and hands as pets.

The other issue remains that arcane and summons is Deomologist and not Warlock. I suspect Dygz might be a warlock player. I should probably focus more on getting demons for my shaman rather than trying to bolster all the summoner classes.

I appreciate the ability to get involved and theory craft.

It depends on what game you came from. For some of us, summoning has nothing to do with demonology, it's just 'eidolons', whether that be as a result of Final Fantasy games, or the few others where it comes up (generally, Eastern concepts are very different about this, in my experience)

The Rings and Hands thing was from the thread @SirChancelot linked and can be ignored entirely, relative to the discussion you seem to be having, sorry about that.

Thank you

Yes, I do agree that it depends where you come from - I lost that thought after I said Demonlogist is an actual class with its own heritage.

There is no reason for the devs to copy a demonologist class from anywhere - I'd rather have one created, however, if I had the choice of demonologists I had to copy (I've played a few) then I'd still choose Arcane and summoning because we are Ashes of Creation (ash comes from fire) and fire and demons is quite generic compared to eidolons which is very specific to another IP.

Neurath wrote: »

Thank you

Yes, I do agree that it depends where you come from - I lost that thought after I said Demonlogist is an actual class with its own heritage.

There is no reason for the devs to copy a demonologist class from anywhere - I'd rather have one created, however, if I had the choice of demonologists I had to copy (I've played a few) then I'd still choose Arcane and summoning because we are Ashes of Creation (ash comes from fire) and fire and demons is quite generic compared to eidolons which is very specific to another IP.

I believe that eidolonic summoning is actually not IP specific, it's just a thing that got associated strongly with that IP over time because they were the ones that moved away from the concepts of 'summoned things being physical'. They didn't even actually use that term for summons at first, I believe it was only 'switched to that' because of some translation thing.

The question is rather if you'd accept a Demonologist 'class' that was not specific, i.e. that it was achieved by combination, but didn't need to be played as one. That could be why the name is what it is. A Warlock can 'be a Demonologist, or choose not to be', based on which skills they take, other augments, gear, etc.

Neurath wrote: »

My issue is dygz relies on 1x generic pet school to block my requests. However, I don't see rings and hands as pets.

The other issue remains that arcane and summons is Deomologist and not Warlock. I suspect Dygz might be a warlock player. I should probably focus more on getting demons for my shaman rather than trying to bolster all the summoner classes.

I don't know why you say I'm blocking anything. I am just describing the Ashes game design.
Which does not have a Demonologist class. And will not have Demonology as an x/Summoner augment School.

The thread is about what you think the augment Schools will be, based on our knowledge of the current design.
It's not a thread about how we would change the design to fit our dreams. AFAIK