Please read the wiki before you make large entries. Personal pets, combat pets and summoner pets don't mix.
However, you can use animal husbandry to create summoned pets according to the wiki (summoner main I believe).
Dygz is incapable of theory crafting and prefers to never have direct involvement in a conversation insteas dygz just has canned phrases and loves to waste everyone's time.
Edit: I can see why familiar faces are missing. I'm pleased I don't actually have to prove anything to dygz. Ultimately, I have no time to go in circles. I should learn that anyone who does not know what stats are should not be expected to assist original ideas.
One could easily make it so that certain skills could receive a stealth style augment that causes you to disappear when you use it
Love this idea. Specifically for a Cleric primary Archetype. Big heal + cleanse debuffs/dots + vanish. Would be so fun in a group PVP scenario when healer is being targeted.
I'm curious. If summoner does not have access to demons - the pinnacle of summoning, what would 1x generic pet school actually give a base summoner?
It's actually for exactly this sort of reason that I ended up racking my brain for so long as to how exactly this would be done, and had to end up suggesting the Rings and 'Hands' in the post.
25 early levels without even being able to define your summons as different, then suddenly they all change entirely, just seemed too odd.
I hope the solution was elegant, even if Intrepid never uses it (once again, absolutely free to) because I really can't stand designs that break themselves before you even begin.
rings and hands? I'd have hoped that would just be part of demonology. I love the idea, but, I try to give a blanket suggestion so the devs have creative freedom rather than plotting out a full roster of my personal ideas on the ability rosters.
My issue is dygz relies on 1x generic pet school to block my requests. However, I don't see rings and hands as pets.
The other issue remains that arcane and summons is Deomologist and not Warlock. I suspect Dygz might be a warlock player. I should probably focus more on getting demons for my shaman rather than trying to bolster all the summoner classes.
I appreciate the ability to get involved and theory craft.
rings and hands? I'd have hoped that would just be part of demonology. I love the idea, but, I try to give a blanket suggestion so the devs have creative freedom rather than plotting out a full roster of my personal ideas on the ability rosters.
My issue is dygz relies on 1x generic pet school to block my requests. However, I don't see rings and hands as pets.
The other issue remains that arcane and summons is Deomologist and not Warlock. I suspect Dygz might be a warlock player. I should probably focus more on getting demons for my shaman rather than trying to bolster all the summoner classes.
I appreciate the ability to get involved and theory craft.
It depends on what game you came from. For some of us, summoning has nothing to do with demonology, it's just 'eidolons', whether that be as a result of Final Fantasy games, or the few others where it comes up (generally, Eastern concepts are very different about this, in my experience)
The Rings and Hands thing was from the thread @SirChancelot linked and can be ignored entirely, relative to the discussion you seem to be having, sorry about that.
Yes, I do agree that it depends where you come from - I lost that thought after I said Demonlogist is an actual class with its own heritage.
There is no reason for the devs to copy a demonologist class from anywhere - I'd rather have one created, however, if I had the choice of demonologists I had to copy (I've played a few) then I'd still choose Arcane and summoning because we are Ashes of Creation (ash comes from fire) and fire and demons is quite generic compared to eidolons which is very specific to another IP.
Yes, I do agree that it depends where you come from - I lost that thought after I said Demonlogist is an actual class with its own heritage.
There is no reason for the devs to copy a demonologist class from anywhere - I'd rather have one created, however, if I had the choice of demonologists I had to copy (I've played a few) then I'd still choose Arcane and summoning because we are Ashes of Creation (ash comes from fire) and fire and demons is quite generic compared to eidolons which is very specific to another IP.
I believe that eidolonic summoning is actually not IP specific, it's just a thing that got associated strongly with that IP over time because they were the ones that moved away from the concepts of 'summoned things being physical'. They didn't even actually use that term for summons at first, I believe it was only 'switched to that' because of some translation thing.
The question is rather if you'd accept a Demonologist 'class' that was not specific, i.e. that it was achieved by combination, but didn't need to be played as one. That could be why the name is what it is. A Warlock can 'be a Demonologist, or choose not to be', based on which skills they take, other augments, gear, etc.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
My issue is dygz relies on 1x generic pet school to block my requests. However, I don't see rings and hands as pets.
The other issue remains that arcane and summons is Deomologist and not Warlock. I suspect Dygz might be a warlock player. I should probably focus more on getting demons for my shaman rather than trying to bolster all the summoner classes.
I don't know why you say I'm blocking anything. I am just describing the Ashes game design.
Which does not have a Demonologist class. And will not have Demonology as an x/Summoner augment School.
The thread is about what you think the augment Schools will be, based on our knowledge of the current design.
It's not a thread about how we would change the design to fit our dreams. AFAIK
Warlocks use afflictions, curses, divine magica, divine pacts, familiars and of course shadows. Warlocks are conjurers but summoner/summoner is called conjurer. Divine magica is not arcane but can be argued to be more powerful than arcane.
The problem we have is the devs want popular class combinations which have roots in pathfinder. All well and good.
Because of 1x generic pet school, summoners are all present except demonologist which goes against the costumes available from kickstarter. So a player can dress like a demon but we can't get summoned demons into the correct hands.
In my mind a Shaman should have specialised summons (Angelic) and Demonology (demons) because Shamans are spiritual and not nature.
Naturally, it is a difficult pill to swallow when I have my own disposition and knowledge. There are also multiple warlock versions but people seem adamant to erase Demonology in favour of a skewed Warlock with no actual true warlock abilities.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2022
The devs are creating classes by combining Primary Archetypes with Secondary Archetypes and then assigning motifs for each class.
I think what you mean is that the devs want class labeles that have roots in Pathfinder.
Of course, Druid is a class in Pathfinder, but that label is not used for Ashes classes.
That doesn't mean we won't be able to create something similar with one of the classes - even if it has a different label than we prefer.
There might be a class that can Summon demons. It might not be the class you would prefer to Summon demons. That class is way more likely to be Warlocks than to be Shamans. "Correct" is subjective.
But, it would just be one class that can do so, rather than all 8 x/Summoner classes. Which is why Demonology won't be an augment School.
I expect x/Summoner to have 3x generic "pet" Schools: Tank, DPS and Support.
If you think there will only be 1x generic "pet" School, that's fine.
Any class can wear any costume.
If Cleric/Summoner were going to be able to Summon angels and demons, that would very likely fall under a School perhaps called Specialised Summons. It would function like the label I shared previously -"Summon [Item/Creature]" - whatever the devs choose to label it. But, the label would be generic for all x/Summoners, rather than Demonology, which would be specific to just on class, rather than all 8 x/Summoner classes.
What is actually Summoned will be determined when the specific augment is applied to an Active Skill.
Because Shamans are spiritual, expect Shamans to Summon spirits.
But, I'm not really interested in arguing about whether a Shaman will be able to Summon demons.
If you want to dream that Shamans will be able to Summon demons, that's fine with me.
I'm just explaining why Demonology cannot be an x/Summoner augment School due to the Ashes game design.
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HumblePuffinMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Personally I think summoners would have to have a school that doesn't really have to do with summons, some kind of targetable spells that can be used on allies or summons. (Time and space don't sound bad, but sound a little too high end extra in a way...)
Because they can't have all their abilities be summoning related... Sounds like too passive of gameplay to be in this game.
They're going to have to have some kind of direct damage, heals, or buff spells to use with their summons.
.
I definitely think a summoner will have spells that it directly casts on a target, but Steven’s overarching view of what the summoner will be to him makes me believe that most of your damage is going to come from your summons.
“The summoner uses many abilities that channel through their summon (also referred to as class skill pets). The summoner is essentially playing through their summon.[4]“
Unlike a lot of other games where the summon is only there to be sacrificed for more player power, or to tank the mobs while you deal damage, or add a relatively pitiful amount of damage; in AoC it sounds to me like your summon is going to make up the bulk of your skill damage.
^this is a huge reason I personally believe they need to get the summoner class in testers hands asap because if it’s the bulk of your skill damage it needs to be done waaaaaaaaaaay better than a lot of other pet classes in other mmos.
I also definitely think weapons/armor/enhancements will have to be one of the schools because of:
“Classes with a Summoner secondary may grant augmented skills that summon weapons. These summoned weapons are not able to be equipped”
I think this lends some credence to the thought that turning a spell into some material thing to wield as a weapon/armor/enhancement is a possible direction they are going to go.
@Neurath not to nitpick but the summon creation suite will be something “based” on the animal husbandry system not “through” it. Just wanted to clear that up so some random person reading didn’t think they would need to interact with animal husbandry to have that capability if it gets included.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think it's very likely that there will be one augment School that is not actually Summoning something.
But, augments are applied to Active Skills, so augments won't be "used on allies", rather they will be applied onto Active Skills. The augmented Active Skills can be used on allies or Summons.
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HumblePuffinMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think it's very likely that there will be one augment School that is not actually Summoning something.
Agreed. This one is probably going to be a mystery left up to theory-craft until they give us more information on the archetype. Other than the “summoner summons summons” we know so little. Also Summoners are labeled as a support class so we can probably assume they will have some general “supportive” skills that they apply to their summons and/or players. This thought is actually why the time/space augment school suggestion stuck out to me as something to consider as a possibility.
What way does the summoner summon? Is it the power from the summoner personified? Is the summoner making a contract with an entity that allows it to call on it whenever? Does it cease to exist when it is dismissed or does it come from another plane of existence where it’s living it’s life when dismissed? I have so many questions about this class and I hope they do it well. I love magic based pet classes.
I have so many questions about all the augment schools for the classes we haven’t really seen yet though. I’m still constantly going back and forth on what 4 schools they will choose for fighter and bard.
Yes, I do agree that it depends where you come from - I lost that thought after I said Demonlogist is an actual class with its own heritage.
There is no reason for the devs to copy a demonologist class from anywhere - I'd rather have one created, however, if I had the choice of demonologists I had to copy (I've played a few) then I'd still choose Arcane and summoning because we are Ashes of Creation (ash comes from fire) and fire and demons is quite generic compared to eidolons which is very specific to another IP.
I believe that eidolonic summoning is actually not IP specific, it's just a thing that got associated strongly with that IP over time because they were the ones that moved away from the concepts of 'summoned things being physical'. They didn't even actually use that term for summons at first, I believe it was only 'switched to that' because of some translation thing.
The question is rather if you'd accept a Demonologist 'class' that was not specific, i.e. that it was achieved by combination, but didn't need to be played as one. That could be why the name is what it is. A Warlock can 'be a Demonologist, or choose not to be', based on which skills they take, other augments, gear, etc.
I agree it isn't 100% on topic
But I thought it was tangential related about different summons and summons type.... Also I just didn't know how to quote my comment over here
>.<
Lol
Personally I think summoners would have to have a school that doesn't really have to do with summons, some kind of targetable spells that can be used on allies or summons. (Time and space don't sound bad, but sound a little too high end extra in a way...)
Because they can't have all their abilities be summoning related... Sounds like too passive of gameplay to be in this game.
They're going to have to have some kind of direct damage, heals, or buff spells to use with their summons.
.
I definitely think a summoner will have spells that it directly casts on a target, but Steven’s overarching view of what the summoner will be to him makes me believe that most of your damage is going to come from your summons.
“The summoner uses many abilities that channel through their summon (also referred to as class skill pets). The summoner is essentially playing through their summon.[4]“
Unlike a lot of other games where the summon is only there to be sacrificed for more player power, or to tank the mobs while you deal damage, or add a relatively pitiful amount of damage; in AoC it sounds to me like your summon is going to make up the bulk of your skill damage.
^this is a huge reason I personally believe they need to get the summoner class in testers hands asap because if it’s the bulk of your skill damage it needs to be done waaaaaaaaaaay better than a lot of other pet classes in other mmos.
I also definitely think weapons/armor/enhancements will have to be one of the schools because of:
“Classes with a Summoner secondary may grant augmented skills that summon weapons. These summoned weapons are not able to be equipped”
I think this lends some credence to the thought that turning a spell into some material thing to wield as a weapon/armor/enhancement is a possible direction they are going to go.
@Neurath not to nitpick but the summon creation suite will be something “based” on the animal husbandry system not “through” it. Just wanted to clear that up so some random person reading didn’t think they would need to interact with animal husbandry to have that capability if it gets included.
That is what I am hoping for. I don't want summons to just fill a support role for the summoner player by adding DPS, tanking mobs, or healing the player. I want them to be much more interactive of a playstyle that we haven't seen before. Hence my idea of summoning and then multiple casts triggering activated abilities from said summons.
I 100% agree with wanting to start testing with it sooner than later, especially since it looks like it will be the most unique of all of their archetypes.
I'm curious. If summoner does not have access to demons - the pinnacle of summoning, what would 1x generic pet school actually give a base summoner?
I have to disagree here with the idea that demons are the Pinnacle of summoning. One of the classes under summoners and necromancer at no point would I ever picture a necromancer summoning a demon. Higher level on dead creatures sure... A zombie, to a wright, to a vampire, etc...
Don't get me wrong I like a lot of what you say, but not every style of summoner do I see going towards demons... So I don't know how much sense it would make to have that be a common school for augments across all summoner classes.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
That is what I am hoping for. I don't want summons to just fill a support role for the summoner player by adding DPS, tanking mobs, or healing the player. I want them to be much more interactive of a playstyle that we haven't seen before. Hence my idea of summoning and then multiple casts triggering activated abilities from said summons.
Well, the idea is each demon (undead) would be aligned to the base class like the other facet. In truth, demons are very broad topics. However, in my mind my shaman would have either vampiric demons for a blood mage effect (Healer) or a single tank demon to use in pve.
Not sure why u refer to a necro? Did u even read my posts? Demons are fir the augments. Necro uses cleric augment?
Perhaps you naysayers should read the wiki and stop being absolute time wasters. What a pointless rush back to respond. Don't fucking ping me again. Thank you.
So, Bards. I’d love to see Bards be given a more psychological kit for cc instead of just buffs and debuffs. This could give bards a sort of limited set of ‘pets’ - not quite summoning - more like mind-control, but to the same effect. Augments could stretch that here and there - especially for the charlatan, who can dupe other easier or disguise themselves as whoever they need to be to get out of danger.
At this stage IS has a chance to really be creative with a class that for the most part has been relegated to ‘just stand over there and uh… do your thing.’
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Well, the idea is each demon (undead) would be aligned to the base class like the other facet. In truth, demons are very broad topics. However, in my mind my shaman would have either vampiric demons for a blood mage effect (Healer) or a single tank demon to use in pve.
It's very likely that Shamans will have life-draining Summons.
It's more likely to be a spirit or a totem than a demon.
That being said - we'll have to see how much leeway we have to modify the appearances of our Summons.
Not sure why u refer to a necro? Did u even read my posts? Demons are for the augments. Necro uses cleric augment?
You're right. Necros are Summoner/Cleric and will use Cleric augments.
Still doesn't change the fact that Falconers Ranger/Summoner won't be Summoning demons.
Which is the main reason we know that Demonology cannot be an x/Summoner augment School.
Well, the idea is each demon (undead) would be aligned to the base class like the other facet. In truth, demons are very broad topics. However, in my mind my shaman would have either vampiric demons for a blood mage effect (Healer) or a single tank demon to use in pve.
Not sure why u refer to a necro? Did u even read my posts? Demons are fir the augments. Necro uses cleric augment?
Perhaps you naysayers should read the wiki and stop being absolute time wasters. What a pointless rush back to respond. Don't fucking ping me again. Thank you.
Fair point
Augments for secondaries, my bad.
A falconer then? Hunter plus falcon summons? Maybe other wild beasts... I still don't see where you're getting demonology... Sorry it just kinda sounds weird
Unless there is some bit of lore we don't know and all summoners have some ties to another plane and all their summons are a little demon flavored... Then I could see being able to spread some of that corruption as an augment.
I dunno, I just wish we could get more information to go on. We are trying to fabricate a lot of "what if"s based off of scraps at best...
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So, Bards. I’d love to see Bards be given a more psychological kit for cc instead of just buffs and debuffs. This could give bards a sort of limited set of ‘pets’ - not quite summoning - more like mind-control, but to the same effect. Augments could stretch that here and there - especially for the charlatan, who can dupe other easier or disguise themselves as whoever they need to be to get out of danger.
At this stage IS has a chance to really be creative with a class that for the most part has been relegated to ‘just stand over there and uh… do your thing.’
I could see an x/Bard augment School for Mental Control.
Could be where Blind and Fear and Silence effects are.
Could be really fun to add a Fear augment onto Hallowed Ground - which procs fear onto enemies in addition to damage, while healing allies.
What types of Mind Control effects are you thinking of that would work on player characters??
What types of Mind Control effects are you thinking of that would work on player characters??
Maybe something similar to WoW. Priest’s had the ability to mind control another player for like 10-12 seconds. Just enough time to fling them off a cliff in Arathi BG.
So maybe something 1:1. Could be a mass mind-control with a single set of directions. IDK. Like stirring up a mob.
I dontbthink you grasp the concept at all. A plumber can be Dominic, a car salesman can be demonic, a teacher can be demonic. I could go on and on.
I do not understand why it is appropriate for a warlock - who by the way, would align with the most potent force available and would not take direction from spiritual entities like a Shaman.
I just don't understand your blanket minds. I mean I wrote entries earlier stating all reasons.
Now, undead creatures cover a fucking plethora. So, perhaps the fucking stupid little fucking ranger might summon vampire bats or some other creature the devs might decide to create for the demonic systems.
Sometimes, I feel like you just want access to all of my theory crafting. Do your fucking own. Thank you.
I think for summoner class variety, IS can take some inspiration from DOTA where there are various heroes which basically have summoner like play style. I will list them and their play style if anyone wants to check them out.
- Warlock: Pretty similar to WoW warlock. Can summon an infernal which is quite overpowered and can solo kill support heroes. Can summon 2 of them given some builds or talent as MMO equivalent. The hero itself has some spells for heal and damage but nothing overwhelming.
- Chen: Entirely dependent on summons and as a result can have quite a lot of them active at the same time. Generally we see 4-5. Summons can be anything and can fulfill any roles.
- Meepo: It can be said to be a type of summoner. Basically it has 3-4 clones of itself. As a result it does 4 times its damage, both physical and magical, need to manually cast spell for each clone. The downside being killing any one clone or the main hero kills all of them.
- Enchantress: A self-sufficient hero but can control one summon whose purpose is mostly utility as the hero damage output is honestly quite ridiculous given some conditions are met.
- Venomancer/Beastmaster/Broodmother/Enigma/Nature's Prophet: These heroes can basically summon a small army of mobs which are pretty underwhelming by themselves but in great numbers can have significant impact. They mostly apply DoTs, impair movement, provide vision and other such utilities apart from some damage per mob which adds up if used correctly. There is no limit to how many of these adds these hero can have active except how far a player is willing to go keep them all alive as in most of these cases they have expiry time.
- Weaver/Undying: Can summon mobs which stick to opposing heroes, do some damage and apply some debuffs like reducing armor, movement impairment, etc. These mobs are not controlled by the player. So negligible skill is needed to use them except the game sense to determine the when and how.
- Phantom Lancer/Chaos knight/Naga Siren/Terrorblade: These are heroes who can spawn illusions of themselves which deal only a portion of main hero damage and take multiple times the damage themselves and so are easily cleared. But it makes finding and targeting the main hero difficult as often it is lost amidst all the chaos. Note: these illusions are different from meepo clones.
- Visage/Invoker/Lycan: These heroes do have summons, but they are more like combat pets.
Heroes like Chen, Meepo requires quite a bit of mechanical skill to micro all of their summons.
"Suffer in silence"
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I dontbthink you grasp the concept at all. A plumber can be Dominic, a car salesman can be demonic, a teacher can be demonic. I could go on and on.
I do not understand why it is appropriate for a warlock - who by the way, would align with the most potent force available and would not take direction from spiritual entities like a Shaman.
I just don't understand your blanket minds. I mean I wrote entries earlier stating all reasons.
Now, undead creatures cover a fucking plethora. So, perhaps the fucking stupid little fucking ranger might summon vampire bats or some other creature the devs might decide to create for the demonic systems.
Sometimes, I feel like you just want access to all of my theory crafting. Do your fucking own. Thank you.
I don't grasp the concept at all.
Even when I Google for sources where Shamans summon demons, I find none. I find numerous sources of Shamans summoning and conversing with spirits and entering the spirit realm(s). Also, I find several sources of Shamans using totems to interact with spirits and the spirit realm(s)
I expect the devs to associate Shamans with spirits and totems rather than with demons.
Especially since Warlocks/Witchcraft are most commonly associated with communicating with and making pacts with demons/elementals and devils. It's most likely the devs will associate Warlocks with demons/elementals.
I think Necromancers were mentioned because your Summoner wiki quote included Summoning zombies, skeletons and undead. It's Necromancers, specifically, who will be doing that even though they will do so via the Cleric augment Schools.
Shaman will not be be Summoning zombies and skeletons. It's possible Shaman could be Summoning something undead similar to a wraith.
Steven has said, "You'll be able to change the appearance of your Summons and identities by achieving in-game items that can change those appearances or maybe even cosmetics we may be offering as well."
So... you might be able to acquire a cosmetic that will change the appearances of your Shaman Summons to look like demons. It just won't be via a Demonology augment School. And the dev version of the Summon won't be a demon even though the cosmetic item makes it appear like a demon.
Again, there's probably a variety of ways to build a "shaman" player character who Summons "demons".
It might be that the best way is not with Cleric/Summoner. It might be that the best way is with augments from a Religion or Social Org. Might be by using cosmetic items to change the appearance of your Summons.
My Ranger Pet Suggestion for undead creatures after a few joints:
In the same vein, in some rural areas of Germany, Poland and Northern France, it was once believed that people who died in mortal sin came back to life as undead werewolves.
Okay, I have taken the feedback to heart. I do not want my ideas changed, however, I think the labels should be changed so:
Time.
Space.
Specialised Summons.
Procurement.
It means we could progress with the amalgamations and utilise many sources, rather than just demons for all classes.
Thank you for your patience,
Neu
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yep. And... that definitely fits the design closely enough.
Thank you for your patience, Neurath.
(Many people would like the labels of some of the classes to be changed. And tons of people would like Tank to have a different label. So, I think you are not alone having some frustration with the devs' labels.)
Comments
However, you can use animal husbandry to create summoned pets according to the wiki (summoner main I believe).
Dygz is incapable of theory crafting and prefers to never have direct involvement in a conversation insteas dygz just has canned phrases and loves to waste everyone's time.
Edit: I can see why familiar faces are missing. I'm pleased I don't actually have to prove anything to dygz. Ultimately, I have no time to go in circles. I should learn that anyone who does not know what stats are should not be expected to assist original ideas.
Love this idea. Specifically for a Cleric primary Archetype. Big heal + cleanse debuffs/dots + vanish. Would be so fun in a group PVP scenario when healer is being targeted.
UNLIMITED POWERRRRRR
It's actually for exactly this sort of reason that I ended up racking my brain for so long as to how exactly this would be done, and had to end up suggesting the Rings and 'Hands' in the post.
25 early levels without even being able to define your summons as different, then suddenly they all change entirely, just seemed too odd.
I hope the solution was elegant, even if Intrepid never uses it (once again, absolutely free to) because I really can't stand designs that break themselves before you even begin.
My issue is dygz relies on 1x generic pet school to block my requests. However, I don't see rings and hands as pets.
The other issue remains that arcane and summons is Deomologist and not Warlock. I suspect Dygz might be a warlock player. I should probably focus more on getting demons for my shaman rather than trying to bolster all the summoner classes.
I appreciate the ability to get involved and theory craft.
It depends on what game you came from. For some of us, summoning has nothing to do with demonology, it's just 'eidolons', whether that be as a result of Final Fantasy games, or the few others where it comes up (generally, Eastern concepts are very different about this, in my experience)
The Rings and Hands thing was from the thread @SirChancelot linked and can be ignored entirely, relative to the discussion you seem to be having, sorry about that.
Yes, I do agree that it depends where you come from - I lost that thought after I said Demonlogist is an actual class with its own heritage.
There is no reason for the devs to copy a demonologist class from anywhere - I'd rather have one created, however, if I had the choice of demonologists I had to copy (I've played a few) then I'd still choose Arcane and summoning because we are Ashes of Creation (ash comes from fire) and fire and demons is quite generic compared to eidolons which is very specific to another IP.
I believe that eidolonic summoning is actually not IP specific, it's just a thing that got associated strongly with that IP over time because they were the ones that moved away from the concepts of 'summoned things being physical'. They didn't even actually use that term for summons at first, I believe it was only 'switched to that' because of some translation thing.
The question is rather if you'd accept a Demonologist 'class' that was not specific, i.e. that it was achieved by combination, but didn't need to be played as one. That could be why the name is what it is. A Warlock can 'be a Demonologist, or choose not to be', based on which skills they take, other augments, gear, etc.
Which does not have a Demonologist class. And will not have Demonology as an x/Summoner augment School.
The thread is about what you think the augment Schools will be, based on our knowledge of the current design.
It's not a thread about how we would change the design to fit our dreams. AFAIK
The problem we have is the devs want popular class combinations which have roots in pathfinder. All well and good.
Because of 1x generic pet school, summoners are all present except demonologist which goes against the costumes available from kickstarter. So a player can dress like a demon but we can't get summoned demons into the correct hands.
In my mind a Shaman should have specialised summons (Angelic) and Demonology (demons) because Shamans are spiritual and not nature.
Naturally, it is a difficult pill to swallow when I have my own disposition and knowledge. There are also multiple warlock versions but people seem adamant to erase Demonology in favour of a skewed Warlock with no actual true warlock abilities.
I think what you mean is that the devs want class labeles that have roots in Pathfinder.
Of course, Druid is a class in Pathfinder, but that label is not used for Ashes classes.
That doesn't mean we won't be able to create something similar with one of the classes - even if it has a different label than we prefer.
There might be a class that can Summon demons. It might not be the class you would prefer to Summon demons. That class is way more likely to be Warlocks than to be Shamans. "Correct" is subjective.
But, it would just be one class that can do so, rather than all 8 x/Summoner classes. Which is why Demonology won't be an augment School.
I expect x/Summoner to have 3x generic "pet" Schools: Tank, DPS and Support.
If you think there will only be 1x generic "pet" School, that's fine.
Any class can wear any costume.
If Cleric/Summoner were going to be able to Summon angels and demons, that would very likely fall under a School perhaps called Specialised Summons. It would function like the label I shared previously -"Summon [Item/Creature]" - whatever the devs choose to label it. But, the label would be generic for all x/Summoners, rather than Demonology, which would be specific to just on class, rather than all 8 x/Summoner classes.
What is actually Summoned will be determined when the specific augment is applied to an Active Skill.
Because Shamans are spiritual, expect Shamans to Summon spirits.
But, I'm not really interested in arguing about whether a Shaman will be able to Summon demons.
If you want to dream that Shamans will be able to Summon demons, that's fine with me.
I'm just explaining why Demonology cannot be an x/Summoner augment School due to the Ashes game design.
I definitely think a summoner will have spells that it directly casts on a target, but Steven’s overarching view of what the summoner will be to him makes me believe that most of your damage is going to come from your summons.
“The summoner uses many abilities that channel through their summon (also referred to as class skill pets). The summoner is essentially playing through their summon.[4]“
Unlike a lot of other games where the summon is only there to be sacrificed for more player power, or to tank the mobs while you deal damage, or add a relatively pitiful amount of damage; in AoC it sounds to me like your summon is going to make up the bulk of your skill damage.
^this is a huge reason I personally believe they need to get the summoner class in testers hands asap because if it’s the bulk of your skill damage it needs to be done waaaaaaaaaaay better than a lot of other pet classes in other mmos.
I also definitely think weapons/armor/enhancements will have to be one of the schools because of:
“Classes with a Summoner secondary may grant augmented skills that summon weapons. These summoned weapons are not able to be equipped”
I think this lends some credence to the thought that turning a spell into some material thing to wield as a weapon/armor/enhancement is a possible direction they are going to go.
@Neurath not to nitpick but the summon creation suite will be something “based” on the animal husbandry system not “through” it. Just wanted to clear that up so some random person reading didn’t think they would need to interact with animal husbandry to have that capability if it gets included.
But, augments are applied to Active Skills, so augments won't be "used on allies", rather they will be applied onto Active Skills. The augmented Active Skills can be used on allies or Summons.
Agreed. This one is probably going to be a mystery left up to theory-craft until they give us more information on the archetype. Other than the “summoner summons summons” we know so little. Also Summoners are labeled as a support class so we can probably assume they will have some general “supportive” skills that they apply to their summons and/or players. This thought is actually why the time/space augment school suggestion stuck out to me as something to consider as a possibility.
What way does the summoner summon? Is it the power from the summoner personified? Is the summoner making a contract with an entity that allows it to call on it whenever? Does it cease to exist when it is dismissed or does it come from another plane of existence where it’s living it’s life when dismissed? I have so many questions about this class and I hope they do it well. I love magic based pet classes.
I have so many questions about all the augment schools for the classes we haven’t really seen yet though. I’m still constantly going back and forth on what 4 schools they will choose for fighter and bard.
I agree it isn't 100% on topic
But I thought it was tangential related about different summons and summons type.... Also I just didn't know how to quote my comment over here
>.<
Lol
That is what I am hoping for. I don't want summons to just fill a support role for the summoner player by adding DPS, tanking mobs, or healing the player. I want them to be much more interactive of a playstyle that we haven't seen before. Hence my idea of summoning and then multiple casts triggering activated abilities from said summons.
I 100% agree with wanting to start testing with it sooner than later, especially since it looks like it will be the most unique of all of their archetypes.
I have to disagree here with the idea that demons are the Pinnacle of summoning. One of the classes under summoners and necromancer at no point would I ever picture a necromancer summoning a demon. Higher level on dead creatures sure... A zombie, to a wright, to a vampire, etc...
Don't get me wrong I like a lot of what you say, but not every style of summoner do I see going towards demons... So I don't know how much sense it would make to have that be a common school for augments across all summoner classes.
Not sure why u refer to a necro? Did u even read my posts? Demons are fir the augments. Necro uses cleric augment?
Perhaps you naysayers should read the wiki and stop being absolute time wasters. What a pointless rush back to respond. Don't fucking ping me again. Thank you.
So, Bards. I’d love to see Bards be given a more psychological kit for cc instead of just buffs and debuffs. This could give bards a sort of limited set of ‘pets’ - not quite summoning - more like mind-control, but to the same effect. Augments could stretch that here and there - especially for the charlatan, who can dupe other easier or disguise themselves as whoever they need to be to get out of danger.
At this stage IS has a chance to really be creative with a class that for the most part has been relegated to ‘just stand over there and uh… do your thing.’
It's more likely to be a spirit or a totem than a demon.
That being said - we'll have to see how much leeway we have to modify the appearances of our Summons.
You're right. Necros are Summoner/Cleric and will use Cleric augments.
Still doesn't change the fact that Falconers Ranger/Summoner won't be Summoning demons.
Which is the main reason we know that Demonology cannot be an x/Summoner augment School.
Fair point
Augments for secondaries, my bad.
A falconer then? Hunter plus falcon summons? Maybe other wild beasts... I still don't see where you're getting demonology... Sorry it just kinda sounds weird
Unless there is some bit of lore we don't know and all summoners have some ties to another plane and all their summons are a little demon flavored... Then I could see being able to spread some of that corruption as an augment.
I dunno, I just wish we could get more information to go on. We are trying to fabricate a lot of "what if"s based off of scraps at best...
Could be where Blind and Fear and Silence effects are.
Could be really fun to add a Fear augment onto Hallowed Ground - which procs fear onto enemies in addition to damage, while healing allies.
What types of Mind Control effects are you thinking of that would work on player characters??
Maybe something similar to WoW. Priest’s had the ability to mind control another player for like 10-12 seconds. Just enough time to fling them off a cliff in Arathi BG.
So maybe something 1:1. Could be a mass mind-control with a single set of directions. IDK. Like stirring up a mob.
I do not understand why it is appropriate for a warlock - who by the way, would align with the most potent force available and would not take direction from spiritual entities like a Shaman.
I just don't understand your blanket minds. I mean I wrote entries earlier stating all reasons.
Now, undead creatures cover a fucking plethora. So, perhaps the fucking stupid little fucking ranger might summon vampire bats or some other creature the devs might decide to create for the demonic systems.
Sometimes, I feel like you just want access to all of my theory crafting. Do your fucking own. Thank you.
- Warlock: Pretty similar to WoW warlock. Can summon an infernal which is quite overpowered and can solo kill support heroes. Can summon 2 of them given some builds or talent as MMO equivalent. The hero itself has some spells for heal and damage but nothing overwhelming.
- Chen: Entirely dependent on summons and as a result can have quite a lot of them active at the same time. Generally we see 4-5. Summons can be anything and can fulfill any roles.
- Meepo: It can be said to be a type of summoner. Basically it has 3-4 clones of itself. As a result it does 4 times its damage, both physical and magical, need to manually cast spell for each clone. The downside being killing any one clone or the main hero kills all of them.
- Enchantress: A self-sufficient hero but can control one summon whose purpose is mostly utility as the hero damage output is honestly quite ridiculous given some conditions are met.
- Venomancer/Beastmaster/Broodmother/Enigma/Nature's Prophet: These heroes can basically summon a small army of mobs which are pretty underwhelming by themselves but in great numbers can have significant impact. They mostly apply DoTs, impair movement, provide vision and other such utilities apart from some damage per mob which adds up if used correctly. There is no limit to how many of these adds these hero can have active except how far a player is willing to go keep them all alive as in most of these cases they have expiry time.
- Weaver/Undying: Can summon mobs which stick to opposing heroes, do some damage and apply some debuffs like reducing armor, movement impairment, etc. These mobs are not controlled by the player. So negligible skill is needed to use them except the game sense to determine the when and how.
- Phantom Lancer/Chaos knight/Naga Siren/Terrorblade: These are heroes who can spawn illusions of themselves which deal only a portion of main hero damage and take multiple times the damage themselves and so are easily cleared. But it makes finding and targeting the main hero difficult as often it is lost amidst all the chaos. Note: these illusions are different from meepo clones.
- Visage/Invoker/Lycan: These heroes do have summons, but they are more like combat pets.
Heroes like Chen, Meepo requires quite a bit of mechanical skill to micro all of their summons.
Even when I Google for sources where Shamans summon demons, I find none. I find numerous sources of Shamans summoning and conversing with spirits and entering the spirit realm(s). Also, I find several sources of Shamans using totems to interact with spirits and the spirit realm(s)
I expect the devs to associate Shamans with spirits and totems rather than with demons.
Especially since Warlocks/Witchcraft are most commonly associated with communicating with and making pacts with demons/elementals and devils. It's most likely the devs will associate Warlocks with demons/elementals.
I think Necromancers were mentioned because your Summoner wiki quote included Summoning zombies, skeletons and undead. It's Necromancers, specifically, who will be doing that even though they will do so via the Cleric augment Schools.
Shaman will not be be Summoning zombies and skeletons. It's possible Shaman could be Summoning something undead similar to a wraith.
Steven has said, "You'll be able to change the appearance of your Summons and identities by achieving in-game items that can change those appearances or maybe even cosmetics we may be offering as well."
So... you might be able to acquire a cosmetic that will change the appearances of your Shaman Summons to look like demons. It just won't be via a Demonology augment School. And the dev version of the Summon won't be a demon even though the cosmetic item makes it appear like a demon.
Again, there's probably a variety of ways to build a "shaman" player character who Summons "demons".
It might be that the best way is not with Cleric/Summoner. It might be that the best way is with augments from a Religion or Social Org. Might be by using cosmetic items to change the appearance of your Summons.
My Ranger Pet Suggestion for undead creatures after a few joints:
In the same vein, in some rural areas of Germany, Poland and Northern France, it was once believed that people who died in mortal sin came back to life as undead werewolves.
Time.
Space.
Specialised Summons.
Procurement.
It means we could progress with the amalgamations and utilise many sources, rather than just demons for all classes.
Thank you for your patience,
Neu
Thank you for your patience, Neurath.
(Many people would like the labels of some of the classes to be changed. And tons of people would like Tank to have a different label. So, I think you are not alone having some frustration with the devs' labels.)