I'm fine with de leveling on enchant fail, risk vs reward, BDO was an epic feeling hitting Tet items, just provide a safe option, if 20% chance to upgrade, offer a safe option at 5x the cost.
It's been a long time since I've played a game with an enchantment system without p2w means...that I've forgotten what it is like to enjoy enchanting.
What aspects of the Enchanting system are important to you?
[Vertical Enchanting] I do not want to feel like I HAVE to enchant/over enchant in order to do endgame content. Personally, I would prefer enchanting to be a reward for taking a huge risk. A small (not game breaking) boost that looks flashy so your efforts are visible. Players who choose not to take the risk to enchant/over enchant should not be excluded from endgame content. In my opinion, your end-game gear should be the set you spent a long time crafting via all your caravan trading, socializing with crafters, farming mobs, gathering, processing, dungeons, raids etc....
If you wish to blow up that gear in attempt to enchant/over enchant the item then I think that is fab if you are looking for something to help you stand out among other players. The rewarding work should be in achieving the high tier item because you have to do meaningful activities to earn it- you don't want to be thinking, damn now its highest tier, I have to enchant it.
Are there Enchanting systems in other games that you feel are done well? If so, what makes Enchanting in those games good?
If I can think of one that doesn't make you reach for your wallet, I'll edit.
Is there anything, in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding the Enchanting system?
I'm actually looking forward to horizontal enchanting. I like the idea of having to work with others to create enchanting scrolls to enchant my items to suit a situation. Whether this is to help my items proficiency in different weathers, seasons or to be more efficient against certain mob types - I really really think this is great. Encourages working with other players and rewards planning ahead to do particular tasks. I'm not a fan of having multiple armour/weapons just for different mob types so I'm alllllll for these types of enchanting!
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MissionCreepMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think full RNG for standard items and standard materials.
The harder it is to get the materials, the harder it should be to lose them with nothing to show for it. (Easy to get them = easy to lose them.)
For more powerful items, when RNG produces "failure"
1) Failure produces a good (but not amazing) item of real value, you shouldn't fail completely
2) Failure causes you to lose some (but not ALL) of that materials, like 10% of them.
3) Failure causes you to lose most of the materials (say 25-50%) but you get a cumulative bonus on the attempt. This bonus can lead to 100% success chance.
Any craftsman IRL who fails on a project will always learn something.
And also imagine something like adamantium or some magical substance like a unicorn horn, or dragon scale or whatever. Those things are resilient, they're not going to just disintegrate because you made a mistake in your workshop, the whole reason you use them is because they are special and not fragile.
This is true of most of our real world metals, for that matter. If you fail, you just melt it down and try again. More or less.
What aspects of the Enchanting system are important to you?
- Giving players variety and agency over their equipment.
- The ability to change enchantments. I like these types of systems when they act as preparation for an encounter or for a specific task, but I want to be able to change things up when I need to.
- Giving crafters the ability to customize their products.
Is there anything, in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding the Enchanting system?
- I'm worried that long term items that are not max enchanted will be useless. At first everyone will be searching for gear but after a while there will be enough "+4" swords to render all "+0 to +3" swords completely useless. I think items need to regularly leave the economy or items will end up being effectively the same regardless. Horizontal progression will existing but vertical will not.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm reminded that I did dislike the Crafting RNG for stats in New World.
I'd rather completely fail and have enough mats left to try again than to craft bags of gear with stats I don't want.
If I expect to use an item for a long time, then I'm more likely to go to the effort of enchanting it. If I'm going to replace the item in a week or two, what's the point in spending materials to improve it?
Maybe something enchanters can do in the field, before battle. Giving a buff that increases the durability damage the weapon takes as well for an enchantment that lasts say an hour. For just having the buff while attacking a dungeon or something
Enchanting is always a sweet addition to make gear a little more interesting, however I do think when it comes to enchanting, simple is better; whether they provide a variety of stat increases, gatherings speed, utuility or even a unique cosmetic affects that allows a player to tailor their gear sets to their own personal style. However, some of the best enchanting recipes shouldn't grow on trees. Most recipes should be rather easy to obtain for someone who a little dedicated to the profession, but some of the harder game content like raid bosses, world bosses, pvp, etc should be able to reward profession recipes that would benefit players taking part in that content, with maybe having a few different types of enchants be rewarded in different types of content to incentivise players to try different types of content in the game? Who knows. At a basicl level, I feel as though games like Classic World of Warcraft/The Burning Crusade provided a solid template for how enchanting should be at a basic level, but could always go further.
If armor dying exists in Ashes, while not "enchantment dying?" This may not be quite as easy, but maybe there could be a way for a player to create or modify COSMETIC enchanting recipes (not stat based ones as we wouldnt be able to control ourselves haha) as another means of showing off their creativity and giving other players more ways to find the perfect aestheitc to fit their character.
In keeping with "simple is better," I believe that if RNG plays a role in the strength of an enchantment, it should be minimal. The RNG debate is a rabbit hole we could go down for hours about any system, but my personal verdict is that a little RNG is fine in regards to things like drop rates, but once you have an item or recipe, then it should work the way it's intended to work. No BDO style enhancing or Titanforging as seen in a few of WoWs later expansions.
Oh god please no RNG in enchanting. What a let down to gather all these expensive mats for a high level enchant only for me to bring them to a casino? Screw that lol
I think this can be an overlooked factor when considering a system like this. RNG for gain treads a very fine line into the lane of gambling.
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lunarskyMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm definitely not a fan of weapon destruction on enchantment fails. I don't mind the enchantment materials being lost but the weapon itself should stay intact. IMO, weapon destruction isn't fun or hard it's just tedious. As I get older and my time for gaming has decreased I have far less of an appetite for tedium.
Love the idea of enchants having unique glows and effects. Please take the time to make them unique beyond just glowing color changes.
Being able to change damage types as suggested and increase base stats/add perks like +5% ice damage would be an ideal system. It'll be a bit tricky to balance perhaps though.
I am hoping as skill level increases we'll get less and less RNG never quite zero but a more predictable result or perhaps a bonus effect like +10% frost damage on a +5% frost damage recipe like a critical bonus that occurs very rarely.
What aspects of the Enchanting system are important to you?
Enchanting weapons + gear should have optional magical glows/auras. Fire damage on a weapon should add flames etc.
I'd like more niche enchants too - Increased damage against certain enemy types, resistances to certain damage types. A party of players all getting their gear enchanted with frost resistance so they can survive a difficult encounter against a frost themed boss or something.
Is there anything, in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding the Enchanting system?
Questlines to specialise in certain enchant types - maybe improve your ability to do shock damage enchants by going on a quest to retrieve lighting elemental regents etc. General rpg stuff
I feel like Aion for example had horrible enchanting, and Lost Ark has semi-decent enchanting.
When RNG is involved in enchanting, it's always horrible to fail. But what is even worse than that? Being an unlucky person. Having bad luck just because.
I have a simple opinion regarding how enchanting RNG should function, according to my experiences of Aion and Lost Ark where enchanting is tied directly to player power and player progression.
My opinions are as such:
- Enchanting MUST be RNG-protected, the stronger the enchant and the more expensive the cost, the greater the RNG protection.
For example on my point, let's say you're enchanting from Level 10 to Level 11 on your weapon with a 10% success chance. All odds are stacked against you...and you fail. Obviously, duh. What'd you expect? Now, the RNG protection would kick in by using the following logic: With a 10% success chance you should succeed 1 in 10 tries, this means that if you failed 9 enchants in a row, your 10th enchant is guaranteed to succeed regardless of RNG results. This is the core of my RNG-protection suggestion.
Players should, under no circumstance, lose power or progression when their enchants fail. While this system creates the illusion of the carrot and the stick where players constantly try to get to max level (usually +15) it also means that there are players who will never reach +15 before the new content and better equipment is released. Such was the case in Aion at least. This means that once your enchanted gear is at +14 for example, upon failure it will NOT drop to +10 like it used to in old Aion, and the item will not (lmao) be destroyed (wtf was NC thinking). It would just mean that your materials are gone, you need to farm them again but you don't leave with a bitter taste entirely, because you know you are guaranteed to get +15 eventually due to the RNG protection system.
Although, RNG protection should be considered a last resort to guarantee unlucky players progress at a good pace, and it should not be considered that players should often hit RNG cap and have 100% success on their next enchant attempt because of failing sprees.
Overall, progressing too slowly (failing spree) will make players extremely unhappy, resentful of lucky players and even quit the game, while progressing too fast (success spree) can make players bored because they reached the content cap of the current patch, so power and character development progression should happen at a reasonably steady pace where players can reach the power cap of the current content and still have fun within the content itself until the next patch arrives. Whether this should be 2 weeks or 2 months or more of everyone playing on an equal playing field depends and is worthy of consideration when taking into account how the economy would develop or otherwise be negatively impacted by players not having what to spend their gold on and hoarding it up for the next content patch causing inflation.
One must also take into account open world PvP which is most fun when everyone has the same gear power, I don't know specifically how much open world PvP we will do in Ashes of Creation, but if it's a lot of it then this definitely needs to be considered as well.
The "Minor Speed" enchant on boots, in World of warcraft would permanently increase movement speed by 8%, this made it very useful while leveling. I really liked how its almost self explanatory that an enchanted boot would make you run faster.
I would like to see symbols written on trees, in sand or snow, made by twigs, rocks or flowers. Thats been placed around the world by enchanter's, this will give a horizontal buff, (can be useful in both light and heavy magical systems), perhaps xp or light/sound effects will be triggered on the enchanter-PC.
I think that in a modern mmo it would be good to play to both of the strengths in an light and heavy magical system. try to balance the difference between leveling up a skill and the fun whit you experience. So i would like to see a passive and a progressive leveling system, passive leveling is where enchantments can place a short lasting enchant in a location, evry PC thats the buff gives the enchanter xp. As the node progresses and the enchanters level up, they can place an bigger enchanting altar, giving playera an ui, this can scale one more time having more options in a hige level node. There should be some enchants gated to only be sold in stores by the city marked place, and hige level enchants should be harder to obtain, making them rare but whit in reach, and only sold between player to player.
Regents used to enchants should make sense or at least be given a little story to why they makes sense. As if you have a branch off steel that makes your bots have +3 agility. Tell or show a little hint off why this is a fact in the world. For the +3 agility seems like a hard magical system, but it does not have to be, just give it a little explanation to what is going on, i think ignoring this is a mistake.
I think it would be very good to have a few very iconic enchants that are found in the ashes lore, a few enchant that makes sense, in that they are. like a phoenix feather to a boot will make it run faster.
Having interactive and engaging elements is key, but also have some convenience, like a few non verbal interactions, so they are replaced with a ui interactions from other players. This will make the world seem larger, give engagements and players can obtain more xp, this will close the gap between having a light and a heavy magical system, and creates something modern and fun.
First of all there should be absolutely no loss of progression for attempting an enchantment....
Where's the risk vs reward element, then?
I wouldn't quit because something down-graded when when taking a chance on getting it up-graded. It might steam me for a couple of days, but I knew the risk, going in. Gearing is fun and all - but it shouldn't be the only reason to play a game.
Some folks just want 1+1=2 - but players like yours truly have always found it more fun if there's an element of chance or risk.
There is risk in using the very rare item you got and having to get another one. Making the game into a constant gambling cycle where you and destroy all your gear through enchancing and have nothing means people can make a reason for them to quit the game. Just because you might not do that doesn't mean you should be ignoring the larger number that will or will refuse to play out of frustration.
Mmorpgs designed around a gambling rush that never ends with your gear and time on the line are just toxic.
First of all there should be absolutely no loss of progression for attempting an enchantment....
Where's the risk vs reward element, then?
I wouldn't quit because something down-graded when when taking a chance on getting it up-graded. It might steam me for a couple of days, but I knew the risk, going in. Gearing is fun and all - but it shouldn't be the only reason to play a game.
Some folks just want 1+1=2 - but players like yours truly have always found it more fun if there's an element of chance or risk.
Are you by chance looking for something like this when it comes to Risk vs Reward?
I don't understand what's going on in this video, and I'm not watching some streamer play for 30 minutes. I never have, and never will watch someone else play a game for 30 minutes.
I understand that the streamer is upset at.... whatever happened to.... whatever it was that he was doing at about 2:30. However, if it involves vertical advancement/improvement to an item, then an emphatic 'YES' to your question.
The current quote from SS on the Wiki presently states:
When it comes to over-enchanting things, what we're going to do likely is have a safety- and this is something obviously it needs to be tested - but we're going to have a safety period of enchantment you know like in Lineage 2 I think you could enchant plus four or something. And so we're gonna have a similar system where you can enchant safely and then when you start to take risks, that percentage of potentially damaging your item either through the decay system or completely disabling it through the destruction system will be a risk that's present.
THIS sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I would hate any system that entirely removes the risk vs reward factor that Ashes is looking to embody.
Simply put, if you're looking to go past the point of reasonable/needed enhancement so that you have the *BEST ITEM EVER!!!!*, then I do feel it's reasonable for a large amount of time & effort to go into projects. I was the type of player who *loved* Shipwrighting in SWG. Was it a bummer to save the best-ever parts for several months to Reverse Engineer into a near server-best Engine or Ship Weapon, combine them all and get a great product, and then a day or two later find another piece with a better stat that would have made it the best engine or weapon EVER? Sure! But that's the type of risk we took in saving things for months before pressing the button, on a finished project.
Was it the entire game, though? No - of course not. /SPIT on anyone who would quit playing a great game just because of a run of bad luck at a single aspect of the game. I play for 2 reasons: 1) the community, and 2) the quality of the game. Community kept me in SWTOR for as long as I was, after SWG. However, SWTOR's just another shitty WoW-clone, when you get down to examining it. 7.0 was the final straw, and even then I'd previously taken long breaks before that, with other, over-hyped updates/content expansions.
If you have the time for something and it's worth it, then GO FOR IT! If you don't? Then don't bother; Find an alternative, like buying/trading for that upper-shelf "shiny". Don't trash an entire system just because YOU don't have the time to burn, on it. So BDO had/has a shitty system.... Let's just not make it like BDO, then!
I'll translate for you, he spent a insane amount of hours grinding over 6 months to loss all the money and make 0 gains (this is after losing a ton of money from enhancing before as well).
By the end of it he has less gear then he started with as one piece downgraded.
This is my its naïve to be full crazy hardcore enhancement systems like this you don't fully understand it till you are losing months of progress through enhancing. I can't stress enough that kind of system will kill off a game, losing hundreds and hundreds of hours. There are ways to do an enhancement system that won't be as bad from a player perception at least.
Going to be explaining this in steps by player progress to make it as simple and as much of a giant paragraph as possible
Step 1 - Level 1 - mid level
No enhancing do to the complexity of how some system can be as its better to make sure players are more comfortable learning other elements of the game first and not be left with a potential bad experience.
Light level of weapon and armor enhancement in place upon obtaining RARE items that can apply a enhancement buff increasing the states on a weapon and maybe a secondary effect as well (frost, poison, etc that might slightly modify the appearance). This level of enhancement would only have one level to it and a rng chance of applying as well as rng of the strength of the buff with quality. Between mid and Max level you would be able to get another item that would give a second chance of a further buff tot he enhancement on the weapon.
At this point it be meant to start introducing it to players that are more comfortable and versed in the game without being a over necessity that they will need as gear as over time they will over level the weapon and need a new weapon more beneficial to their current power. Which will help get players use to the potential good and bad rng elements when it comes to enhancing without being over bound to one piece of gear.
With this system in place the rare item is the only thing that is ever loss, gear can only have a single enhancement on them and will need a new piece of gear if they want to work with another enhancement on it.
Step 3 - Max level - End game Strength level 5-20%
High level enhancements can be obtained from high end content and a increase in enhancement levels up 4.
As before it would work on rng if it applies to your weapon or not with its lower rate based on the frequency which you would be able to get them in game. Maybe either 10-20% chance for it to be applied on your weapon.
It would be similar to step to step 2 where the strength of quality would be based on rng but rather then a random number the more times you fail until pity, the stronger the quality will be on the gear. (This way it would be an attempt to reduce the pain of failing as its a way to make your weapon stronger when the enhancement finally pops when you eventually work towards the free pity enhancement).
If you reach to max pity the quality is increased by about 40-50% per enhancement level. So about 2.5-5% increase.
There would be a bonus those those that get lucky, but also unlucky as well without it having too much of a overall impact on who was more lucky or not based solely on the rng aspect of enhancing. (Though the drops being rare as well and having to do high level content to be these level gems would add to a gear chase people can always be working towards.)
These like in step 2 are once per weapon, once its enchanted you can't try to redo the enchantment. This way those rare weapons you find, it gives reason to try to get another one of them and ensures a constant gear chase as hardcore players try to fully min max.
Step 4 - End Game Strength level 20%
As stated in Step 3 players have a cycle of trying to enhance their gear and make it as strong as possible. There can be only system in place maybe based on your element of enhancing you get secondary effects.
ie Protections, Fire dots, increase pentation, cooldown reduction, etc
There of course can be different types of enhancement effects on the different pieces of gear, as well as some effect being weaker to certain armor and enemy types or maybe slightly stronger.
So you have a mix of enhancement increasing overall strength as well as giving a special secondary effect to stats. With a mix of the different weapons players find and craft as well as having different builds for different situations. It would further help push the economy to thrive, as well being more friend to ensure people do not feel their progression and time is not being lost / wasted.
conclusion
Overall for end game if you gain a increase of 50% power when you are fully maxed out, I believe having 30% should come from your gear drops. Having that being exciting honestly I think is the best way to go. I believe this kind of enhancement system for the last 20% would help compliment the economy and the game design I believe as it would be something people have to constantly work towards, as well get those rare drops multiple times perhaps as they try to enhance them and bring them to their pinnacle with different types of stats. As well as having the potential for nice effects faint or spectacular.
I'm not a fan of the enchanting and breaking at all. This system reminds me of Vindictus where you basically needed to protect your item when enchanting and you needed to enchant to be at the level necessary to play with others. You basically HAVE to take the risk of over enchanting and if you fail, you've just completely lost all of your investment.
I'm a fan of requiring a large investment in enchanting and it being guaranteed but the grind being what everyone needs to do. Then you have people investing more time in playing the game and you still have people spreading into their percentiles.
I feel like overenchantment is meant only for pushing the peak of character progress. You can get you BiS, you can get additional effects on its attack/defense functions, but if you want to go up in power - you gotta risk smth. Just putting more resources into the weapon is not a risk, it's an assured way up through time.
Imo enchantments for vertical progression of gear should be ultra rare. Someone over enchanting a weapon should be a damn event for the server. That one person will get 1-3% boost in power, but their reputation will be that of "someone at the peak of their progress". The whole guild should work for that kind of thing. And by the time that player gets to a chance to destroy their BiS weapon in an overenchant - they should already have a backup. And if they decide to risk a unique legendary - that'd be a great way for it to "change hands". But if they succeed to OE that legendary - they deserve the powerup, because their risk was gigantic.
You can't be a gambler if you don't have the means to gamble. But you can take risks when the opportunity presents itself.
Why does there have to be a risk? You could cap their progression of their weapon by the rarity of the resource. Perhaps after a certain point you can 'over enchant' a type of benefit, call it a prestige, that requires several different resources that come from end-game events (bosses, agriculture, chests) or whatever. This would ensure a healthy end-game grind until new content comes and tie in the economy of the game around these events.
Why does there have to be a risk? You could cap their progression of their weapon by the rarity of the resource. Perhaps after a certain point you can 'over enchant' a type of benefit, call it a prestige, that requires several different resources that come from end-game events (bosses, agriculture, chests) or whatever. This would ensure a healthy end-game grind until new content comes and tie in the economy of the game around these events.
That is already the case. You'll already have to farm endgame bosses several times not to only drop some rare loot, but to then use that loot to upkeep your endgame gear. And the OE system is to push that gear even higher. And if you want to do that - there's gotta be a risk (imo). And I think there should always be a way to get your power higher, for those who want to run on that treadmill. But it should always come at a really high price, which is why I support destruction on OE fails.
Supporting a system that destroys your gear, is the most sure way to have a dead mmorpg. Risk does not work in one way, destruction is meant to introduce p2w.
By destroying gear you are effectively giving players a reason to quit the game as well as NOT COME BACK to the game. Far different then simply just farming a end game boss and having a chance at loot. Because at the end of the day you can simply kill the boss again and not lose anything.
Me being a hardcore player i understand how things are and i even dont agree with a enhancement system destroying your gear. It is easy as hell for hardcore players to more selfishly think its better, because their sense of time is fine with progression lost since they can just throw 200 hours at it over a few more weeks.
Me being a hardcore player i understand how things are and i even dont agree with a enhancement system destroying your gear. It is easy as hell for hardcore players to more selfishly think its better, because their sense of time is fine with progression lost since they can just throw 200 hours at it over a few more weeks.
Which is exactly why I said that imo this system (again, OE part, not enchantment overall) is meant for those who are already at the very top of progress. You either have a hard progress ceiling and lose players who want to constantly progress no matter the cost (a fairly small amount of people obviously) or you have OE fails destroying your gear, but position the very concept of OE as smth to do once you've done everything else, which will lose the people who dislike this system so much that they leave the game even w/o getting to the very top (also a small amount).
By destroying gear you are effectively giving players a reason to quit the game as well as NOT COME BACK to the game. Far different then simply just farming a end game boss and having a chance at loot. Because at the end of the day you can simply kill the boss again and not lose anything.
And that player could prepare for the risk and farm another copy of their gear. Or, what a twist, they could just not OE their gear. And as I said in my og post, you'd only get 1-3% for that OE step, so it's not like you'll suddenly become the strongest boi of all and just dominate the whole server solo. Especially if the OE requirements themselves are so rare that you'd have to get your whole guild working for your one chance at an OE.
The problem is not the system itself, it's the entitlement of people of all lvls of hardcoreness in wanting to experience every single piece of content in the game w/o any investments or risks. And Steven himself said that such people won't be able to experience everything, so it's not like my suggestion suddenly breaks the entire game's design.
Its not a small amount its a much alrger percentage amount people will progress and blow what they need up once they get to that part. Unless the state gain is very small and not worth it, else then the risk part wouldnt make sense. Its a bad system and there are much better ways to do this as stated in my post above without gear loss. There is no reason to include the risk in a game when you can create better designed approach to gearing.
If you gain a little bit of power for over enchanting at the cost of a chance your gear is deleted. That needs to go, as i said gives a reason for people to quit and not come back. No reason for that to be in place, its a old system get soemthing better and more modern in that will keep the player base.
Again Risk does not only = Gear destroyed. Better ways to go around doing enhancing.
Elder scrolls online does a great job for enchanting/crafting. No RNG if you are leveled up and use enough materials. System is easy to understand and uniform. This makes it easy to balance the game long term while putting meaning into crafting.
Its not a small amount its a much alrger percentage amount people will progress and blow what they need up once they get to that part. Unless the state gain is very small and not worth it, else then the risk part wouldnt make sense. Its a bad system and there are much better ways to do this as stated in my post above without gear loss. There is no reason to include the risk in a game when you can create better designed approach to gearing.
If I understood your suggestion correctly, you have a theoretical ceiling to the power lvl achievable in the game, but it takes a long way and luck to get there. So in the long run the lucky people will get to the top and will forever stay there.
My suggestion makes that progress harder and longer just by the fact that you'd have to double grind each step of OE if you wanted to mitigate risks. And if you set the ceiling high enough and required resources rare enough, there might be one or two people that are even able to get there if they're lucky enough.
And each OE step has the potential to remove a powerful weapon from the whole server, equalizing overall power lvls among the players. While a 0-risk system doesn't do that and only keeps raising the power lvl, while keeping most of that power in the hands of the top 1% of players w/o a chance to remove it. In time a 0-risk system will create such a big divide between people at the top and all the other people, that there'll be more people leaving due to constantly losing in pvp than there would've been leaving due to breaking their strong weapons (which, as I keep saying, would've already been singular people at the top of progress).
But I understand that our point of view on this system is too different, so it's pointless to keep budding our heads over it. Some time ago I suggested a 0-rng enchanting system that still kept the high price, that I think is required when it comes to OEing, so if you're interested in that, here it is.
"Removing powerful items" Just going to say gear loss is not the way. My suggestion allows gear to be there, but like rng enhancing you could roll another one that is stronger.
All it is will create a gambling feeling where someone eventually will try to roll multiple things and end up quitting if the items are destroyed.
If you have a enhancing system that is only meant for super end game with destroyed gear, its simply there at the very end because its something that people won't like and will eventually make people quit. So that is a sign in itself if it needs to be almost hidden at the end its not a good sign
If you have a enhancing system that is only meant for super end game with destroyed gear, its simply there at the very end because its something that people won't like and will eventually make people quit. So that is a sign in itself if it needs to be almost hidden at the end its not a good sign
As a last point and just to make sure. You do know that there's basic safe level on vertical enchantment of gear AND horizontal enchantment for additional effects on gear, right? https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Enchanting
And then after those things you have the concept of over enchantment where you're trying to go even further, after having already enchanted your gear both horizontally and vertically. Everything I've said was about OE and in the context of you having already done all the things you wanted to do with your gear, which imo should also be on the rarer side (at least the vertical part).
Comments
What aspects of the Enchanting system are important to you?
[Vertical Enchanting] I do not want to feel like I HAVE to enchant/over enchant in order to do endgame content. Personally, I would prefer enchanting to be a reward for taking a huge risk. A small (not game breaking) boost that looks flashy so your efforts are visible. Players who choose not to take the risk to enchant/over enchant should not be excluded from endgame content. In my opinion, your end-game gear should be the set you spent a long time crafting via all your caravan trading, socializing with crafters, farming mobs, gathering, processing, dungeons, raids etc....
If you wish to blow up that gear in attempt to enchant/over enchant the item then I think that is fab if you are looking for something to help you stand out among other players. The rewarding work should be in achieving the high tier item because you have to do meaningful activities to earn it- you don't want to be thinking, damn now its highest tier, I have to enchant it.
Are there Enchanting systems in other games that you feel are done well? If so, what makes Enchanting in those games good?
If I can think of one that doesn't make you reach for your wallet, I'll edit.
Is there anything, in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding the Enchanting system?
I'm actually looking forward to horizontal enchanting. I like the idea of having to work with others to create enchanting scrolls to enchant my items to suit a situation. Whether this is to help my items proficiency in different weathers, seasons or to be more efficient against certain mob types - I really really think this is great. Encourages working with other players and rewards planning ahead to do particular tasks. I'm not a fan of having multiple armour/weapons just for different mob types so I'm alllllll for these types of enchanting!
The harder it is to get the materials, the harder it should be to lose them with nothing to show for it. (Easy to get them = easy to lose them.)
For more powerful items, when RNG produces "failure"
1) Failure produces a good (but not amazing) item of real value, you shouldn't fail completely
2) Failure causes you to lose some (but not ALL) of that materials, like 10% of them.
3) Failure causes you to lose most of the materials (say 25-50%) but you get a cumulative bonus on the attempt. This bonus can lead to 100% success chance.
Any craftsman IRL who fails on a project will always learn something.
And also imagine something like adamantium or some magical substance like a unicorn horn, or dragon scale or whatever. Those things are resilient, they're not going to just disintegrate because you made a mistake in your workshop, the whole reason you use them is because they are special and not fragile.
This is true of most of our real world metals, for that matter. If you fail, you just melt it down and try again. More or less.
- Giving players variety and agency over their equipment.
- The ability to change enchantments. I like these types of systems when they act as preparation for an encounter or for a specific task, but I want to be able to change things up when I need to.
- Giving crafters the ability to customize their products.
Is there anything, in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding the Enchanting system?
- I'm worried that long term items that are not max enchanted will be useless. At first everyone will be searching for gear but after a while there will be enough "+4" swords to render all "+0 to +3" swords completely useless. I think items need to regularly leave the economy or items will end up being effectively the same regardless. Horizontal progression will existing but vertical will not.
I'd rather completely fail and have enough mats left to try again than to craft bags of gear with stats I don't want.
Maybe something enchanters can do in the field, before battle. Giving a buff that increases the durability damage the weapon takes as well for an enchantment that lasts say an hour. For just having the buff while attacking a dungeon or something
If armor dying exists in Ashes, while not "enchantment dying?" This may not be quite as easy, but maybe there could be a way for a player to create or modify COSMETIC enchanting recipes (not stat based ones as we wouldnt be able to control ourselves haha) as another means of showing off their creativity and giving other players more ways to find the perfect aestheitc to fit their character.
In keeping with "simple is better," I believe that if RNG plays a role in the strength of an enchantment, it should be minimal. The RNG debate is a rabbit hole we could go down for hours about any system, but my personal verdict is that a little RNG is fine in regards to things like drop rates, but once you have an item or recipe, then it should work the way it's intended to work. No BDO style enhancing or Titanforging as seen in a few of WoWs later expansions.
I think this can be an overlooked factor when considering a system like this. RNG for gain treads a very fine line into the lane of gambling.
Love the idea of enchants having unique glows and effects. Please take the time to make them unique beyond just glowing color changes.
Being able to change damage types as suggested and increase base stats/add perks like +5% ice damage would be an ideal system. It'll be a bit tricky to balance perhaps though.
I am hoping as skill level increases we'll get less and less RNG never quite zero but a more predictable result or perhaps a bonus effect like +10% frost damage on a +5% frost damage recipe like a critical bonus that occurs very rarely.
Enchanting weapons + gear should have optional magical glows/auras. Fire damage on a weapon should add flames etc.
I'd like more niche enchants too - Increased damage against certain enemy types, resistances to certain damage types. A party of players all getting their gear enchanted with frost resistance so they can survive a difficult encounter against a frost themed boss or something.
Is there anything, in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding the Enchanting system?
Questlines to specialise in certain enchant types - maybe improve your ability to do shock damage enchants by going on a quest to retrieve lighting elemental regents etc. General rpg stuff
When RNG is involved in enchanting, it's always horrible to fail. But what is even worse than that? Being an unlucky person. Having bad luck just because.
I have a simple opinion regarding how enchanting RNG should function, according to my experiences of Aion and Lost Ark where enchanting is tied directly to player power and player progression.
My opinions are as such:
- Enchanting MUST be RNG-protected, the stronger the enchant and the more expensive the cost, the greater the RNG protection.
For example on my point, let's say you're enchanting from Level 10 to Level 11 on your weapon with a 10% success chance. All odds are stacked against you...and you fail. Obviously, duh. What'd you expect? Now, the RNG protection would kick in by using the following logic: With a 10% success chance you should succeed 1 in 10 tries, this means that if you failed 9 enchants in a row, your 10th enchant is guaranteed to succeed regardless of RNG results. This is the core of my RNG-protection suggestion.
Players should, under no circumstance, lose power or progression when their enchants fail. While this system creates the illusion of the carrot and the stick where players constantly try to get to max level (usually +15) it also means that there are players who will never reach +15 before the new content and better equipment is released. Such was the case in Aion at least. This means that once your enchanted gear is at +14 for example, upon failure it will NOT drop to +10 like it used to in old Aion, and the item will not (lmao) be destroyed (wtf was NC thinking). It would just mean that your materials are gone, you need to farm them again but you don't leave with a bitter taste entirely, because you know you are guaranteed to get +15 eventually due to the RNG protection system.
Although, RNG protection should be considered a last resort to guarantee unlucky players progress at a good pace, and it should not be considered that players should often hit RNG cap and have 100% success on their next enchant attempt because of failing sprees.
Overall, progressing too slowly (failing spree) will make players extremely unhappy, resentful of lucky players and even quit the game, while progressing too fast (success spree) can make players bored because they reached the content cap of the current patch, so power and character development progression should happen at a reasonably steady pace where players can reach the power cap of the current content and still have fun within the content itself until the next patch arrives. Whether this should be 2 weeks or 2 months or more of everyone playing on an equal playing field depends and is worthy of consideration when taking into account how the economy would develop or otherwise be negatively impacted by players not having what to spend their gold on and hoarding it up for the next content patch causing inflation.
One must also take into account open world PvP which is most fun when everyone has the same gear power, I don't know specifically how much open world PvP we will do in Ashes of Creation, but if it's a lot of it then this definitely needs to be considered as well.
I would like to see symbols written on trees, in sand or snow, made by twigs, rocks or flowers. Thats been placed around the world by enchanter's, this will give a horizontal buff, (can be useful in both light and heavy magical systems), perhaps xp or light/sound effects will be triggered on the enchanter-PC.
I think that in a modern mmo it would be good to play to both of the strengths in an light and heavy magical system. try to balance the difference between leveling up a skill and the fun whit you experience. So i would like to see a passive and a progressive leveling system, passive leveling is where enchantments can place a short lasting enchant in a location, evry PC thats the buff gives the enchanter xp. As the node progresses and the enchanters level up, they can place an bigger enchanting altar, giving playera an ui, this can scale one more time having more options in a hige level node. There should be some enchants gated to only be sold in stores by the city marked place, and hige level enchants should be harder to obtain, making them rare but whit in reach, and only sold between player to player.
Regents used to enchants should make sense or at least be given a little story to why they makes sense. As if you have a branch off steel that makes your bots have +3 agility. Tell or show a little hint off why this is a fact in the world. For the +3 agility seems like a hard magical system, but it does not have to be, just give it a little explanation to what is going on, i think ignoring this is a mistake.
I think it would be very good to have a few very iconic enchants that are found in the ashes lore, a few enchant that makes sense, in that they are. like a phoenix feather to a boot will make it run faster.
Having interactive and engaging elements is key, but also have some convenience, like a few non verbal interactions, so they are replaced with a ui interactions from other players. This will make the world seem larger, give engagements and players can obtain more xp, this will close the gap between having a light and a heavy magical system, and creates something modern and fun.
There is risk in using the very rare item you got and having to get another one. Making the game into a constant gambling cycle where you and destroy all your gear through enchancing and have nothing means people can make a reason for them to quit the game. Just because you might not do that doesn't mean you should be ignoring the larger number that will or will refuse to play out of frustration.
Mmorpgs designed around a gambling rush that never ends with your gear and time on the line are just toxic.
I'll translate for you, he spent a insane amount of hours grinding over 6 months to loss all the money and make 0 gains (this is after losing a ton of money from enhancing before as well).
By the end of it he has less gear then he started with as one piece downgraded.
This is my its naïve to be full crazy hardcore enhancement systems like this you don't fully understand it till you are losing months of progress through enhancing. I can't stress enough that kind of system will kill off a game, losing hundreds and hundreds of hours. There are ways to do an enhancement system that won't be as bad from a player perception at least.
Going to be explaining this in steps by player progress to make it as simple and as much of a giant paragraph as possible
Step 1 - Level 1 - mid level
No enhancing do to the complexity of how some system can be as its better to make sure players are more comfortable learning other elements of the game first and not be left with a potential bad experience.
Step 2 - Mid level - High Level Strength level 4-8%
Light level of weapon and armor enhancement in place upon obtaining RARE items that can apply a enhancement buff increasing the states on a weapon and maybe a secondary effect as well (frost, poison, etc that might slightly modify the appearance). This level of enhancement would only have one level to it and a rng chance of applying as well as rng of the strength of the buff with quality. Between mid and Max level you would be able to get another item that would give a second chance of a further buff tot he enhancement on the weapon.
At this point it be meant to start introducing it to players that are more comfortable and versed in the game without being a over necessity that they will need as gear as over time they will over level the weapon and need a new weapon more beneficial to their current power. Which will help get players use to the potential good and bad rng elements when it comes to enhancing without being over bound to one piece of gear.
With this system in place the rare item is the only thing that is ever loss, gear can only have a single enhancement on them and will need a new piece of gear if they want to work with another enhancement on it.
Step 3 - Max level - End game Strength level 5-20%
High level enhancements can be obtained from high end content and a increase in enhancement levels up 4.
As before it would work on rng if it applies to your weapon or not with its lower rate based on the frequency which you would be able to get them in game. Maybe either 10-20% chance for it to be applied on your weapon.
It would be similar to step to step 2 where the strength of quality would be based on rng but rather then a random number the more times you fail until pity, the stronger the quality will be on the gear. (This way it would be an attempt to reduce the pain of failing as its a way to make your weapon stronger when the enhancement finally pops when you eventually work towards the free pity enhancement).
If you reach to max pity the quality is increased by about 40-50% per enhancement level. So about 2.5-5% increase.
There would be a bonus those those that get lucky, but also unlucky as well without it having too much of a overall impact on who was more lucky or not based solely on the rng aspect of enhancing. (Though the drops being rare as well and having to do high level content to be these level gems would add to a gear chase people can always be working towards.)
These like in step 2 are once per weapon, once its enchanted you can't try to redo the enchantment. This way those rare weapons you find, it gives reason to try to get another one of them and ensures a constant gear chase as hardcore players try to fully min max.
Step 4 - End Game Strength level 20%
As stated in Step 3 players have a cycle of trying to enhance their gear and make it as strong as possible. There can be only system in place maybe based on your element of enhancing you get secondary effects.
ie Protections, Fire dots, increase pentation, cooldown reduction, etc
There of course can be different types of enhancement effects on the different pieces of gear, as well as some effect being weaker to certain armor and enemy types or maybe slightly stronger.
So you have a mix of enhancement increasing overall strength as well as giving a special secondary effect to stats. With a mix of the different weapons players find and craft as well as having different builds for different situations. It would further help push the economy to thrive, as well being more friend to ensure people do not feel their progression and time is not being lost / wasted.
conclusion
Overall for end game if you gain a increase of 50% power when you are fully maxed out, I believe having 30% should come from your gear drops. Having that being exciting honestly I think is the best way to go. I believe this kind of enhancement system for the last 20% would help compliment the economy and the game design I believe as it would be something people have to constantly work towards, as well get those rare drops multiple times perhaps as they try to enhance them and bring them to their pinnacle with different types of stats. As well as having the potential for nice effects faint or spectacular.
critique is welcome
I'm a fan of requiring a large investment in enchanting and it being guaranteed but the grind being what everyone needs to do. Then you have people investing more time in playing the game and you still have people spreading into their percentiles.
Why does there have to be a risk? You could cap their progression of their weapon by the rarity of the resource. Perhaps after a certain point you can 'over enchant' a type of benefit, call it a prestige, that requires several different resources that come from end-game events (bosses, agriculture, chests) or whatever. This would ensure a healthy end-game grind until new content comes and tie in the economy of the game around these events.
By destroying gear you are effectively giving players a reason to quit the game as well as NOT COME BACK to the game. Far different then simply just farming a end game boss and having a chance at loot. Because at the end of the day you can simply kill the boss again and not lose anything.
The problem is not the system itself, it's the entitlement of people of all lvls of hardcoreness in wanting to experience every single piece of content in the game w/o any investments or risks. And Steven himself said that such people won't be able to experience everything, so it's not like my suggestion suddenly breaks the entire game's design.
Again Risk does not only = Gear destroyed. Better ways to go around doing enhancing.
My suggestion makes that progress harder and longer just by the fact that you'd have to double grind each step of OE if you wanted to mitigate risks. And if you set the ceiling high enough and required resources rare enough, there might be one or two people that are even able to get there if they're lucky enough.
And each OE step has the potential to remove a powerful weapon from the whole server, equalizing overall power lvls among the players. While a 0-risk system doesn't do that and only keeps raising the power lvl, while keeping most of that power in the hands of the top 1% of players w/o a chance to remove it. In time a 0-risk system will create such a big divide between people at the top and all the other people, that there'll be more people leaving due to constantly losing in pvp than there would've been leaving due to breaking their strong weapons (which, as I keep saying, would've already been singular people at the top of progress).
But I understand that our point of view on this system is too different, so it's pointless to keep budding our heads over it. Some time ago I suggested a 0-rng enchanting system that still kept the high price, that I think is required when it comes to OEing, so if you're interested in that, here it is.
All it is will create a gambling feeling where someone eventually will try to roll multiple things and end up quitting if the items are destroyed.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Enchanting
And then after those things you have the concept of over enchantment where you're trying to go even further, after having already enchanted your gear both horizontally and vertically. Everything I've said was about OE and in the context of you having already done all the things you wanted to do with your gear, which imo should also be on the rarer side (at least the vertical part).