-short quote i know, sorry. But im trying to find your points of arguments.
So you're against it because gambling, and the potential loss of player base, and you dont like the concept of gear destruction...
You can lose your house in ashes... you can lose your city. The only way you lose your gear is if you fail to repair it or over enchant it... its one of the few things that you yourself can actually just protect. No one can take it from you. If you dont want to over enchant and compete at the highest lvls.... dont? Idk why your preference should remove the choice for others
You can not agree with me its fine, I just want to hear any reason why its a good thing besides it sounds cool or nostalgia. I understand where you are coming from but I don't believe people are going to just destroy their powerful gear for a smaller stat increase without having a dup. Else they are trying to give a reason to quit the game, and you can help the economy with enhancing without gear destruction.
Or counter my own points if they aren't strong so I can think about them.
WHAT I am talking about is not have nostalgia ruin a game with people thinking to it be cool if your gear blows up. No no one ever things that this si just the reality, you can create very interesting, long term and hardcore systems without having the feature in that will eventually cause people to quit as has been seen over 8 years of content between other mmorpgs it does not work.
Over enchanting with a destruction risk. is fun in my opinion. And works in a system with true uniqe items, and helps over all balance. If some gear is too powerful, some uniqe drops too OP the ability to over enchant lets you compete with it. And the temptation to over enchant something op lets there be a risky way to lose that equipment. Item destruction in general helps a working economy. And all gear degrades as ots used to begin with, you wont have the same sword throught the game without constantly repairing it, and i would like a cap to be placed on how much an item can be repaired.
In the over arching systems in ashes, item destruction needs to happen a certain amount to begin with.
Ive made some points.
I think it helps balancing for one. Without a way to shift gears value, how does teir 1 gear compete with teir 2? It doesnt.
It helps the economy. Because guilds seting out to over enchant a top level weapon or armor peice will start buying up all the resources they can because of the destruction failure attempts.
You took my "its fun" and wrote off my whole post.
I think your perspective in general is a very solo player outlook.
Better times does not mean copying over an exact system, or it is nostalgia for simply one feature over if it is something out is out dated or their designed come up with a more engaging and fun one.
And yet Steven copied L2's pvp system. And depending on what exactly he meant by "item gets destroyed if you fail an OE" during an interview, he might've taken L2's OE system too.
Your points for wanting it are simply because of nostalgia over any good fact that will further the game in design. I'd much rather hear your own unique approach to it, that does not involve gear destruction, maybe takes some things from linage 2 of course but has your own unique spin on it.
I have literally posted my own take in a response within this very conversation. But I made that take just to appeal to all the people who're yelling "omg my broken items that I didn't even think to back up! What will I ever do with my own hubris of thinking that I'll be the lucky one who get's the OE and not burn my stuff. Guess I'll die leave forever and ever".
My preferred system would still be the one from L2 I've seen/heard about the system in BDO, in LA, in B&S, I've read a ton of suggestions in this thread - and after all of that I still prefer L2's system. Not because of nostalgia, but because I just prefer that system.
When do you think a player quits playing? When they make the choice to risk a peice of gear and it breaks... or when their entire city burns down after a lost seige and they lose their home and all their resources?
The argument, people are going to quit over it, doesnt really apply here. Ashes is a different kind of game than an mmo you log into and do your chores.
-short quote i know, sorry. But im trying to find your points of arguments.
So you're against it because gambling, and the potential loss of player base, and you dont like the concept of gear destruction...
You can lose your house in ashes... you can lose your city. The only way you lose your gear is if you fail to repair it or over enchant it... its one of the few things that you yourself can actually just protect. No one can take it from you. If you dont want to over enchant and compete at the highest lvls.... dont? Idk why your preference should remove the choice for others
Destruction of your house is not the same as the gear, they are even making it easier to hopefully rebuild your placement the best they can in another area.
Depending on the power increase of the enhancing, id say if it made each piece of gear by the end atleast 15% stronger at max enhance people would feel the need to do it. With a mix of just wanting to be stronger and competitive types of people. Is it there only for pvp or will you need to be very geared to do the best content as well.
Either or it would create a cut off in gear and strength and becomes not something you don't have to do but something players view as you need the gear as much as possible and will push towards it. It will 100% be effective in stalling people as that is the goal of the system, to try to cap a percentage of the players strength over time through rng so they have to keep working and grinding at it.
Through preventing players any system will cause backlash but the backlash of players losing gear can cause players to not have a reason to come back to the game. It is a pretty big point, if you lose your house you still can rebuild, play the game and have fun. If you lose gear that means you are losing or having a reduction in the content you can do as a player do to being weaker. The continued loop of this cycle will continue to have stronger backlash effects that will cause players to eventually quit, or have less of a reason to pick up the game months or a year from now.
My preference as many other people that have experience or seen enhancement systems is a distain for gear destruction. I could ask you the same thing if most people that have played / watched these types of games dislike that certain aspect of it. Why can there not be another system that has its own hardcore elements without gear destruction? Why does a small amount of people have to be like gear destruction is the only way that they will find the most fun? The only types I've seen like that are ones that are addicted to the rush of gambling or have not fully experience how far infinite enhancing can go and the impact with gear destruction / level reduction.
I also used to play lineage 2 and I like its enchant system.
If memory servers well. it was common to enchant other "raw" weapons instead of main one with other effects applied.If you managed to make it +6 for example then you would make it your main weapon and customize further.
Most heavily over-enchanted weapons were lower tier because A and S tier was really expensive.
If I remember B grade +16 was on par with base S grade. But 16 was really rare. Most heavily over-enchanted weapons were D and C grade.
I am expecting similar system in AoC. And the item destruction cycle is part of the economy. You over-enchant and if it fails you get material that you can use for repair or additional crafting.
About weapons from boss and crafting. In lineage, and I am expecting a lot of similarities here, it were basically same weapons. You could drop full weapons from boss but much more often you would drop "parts" needed to craft said weapon. Lets say you need 14 parts of sword to craft it and boss will drop 20-55 parts per kill. Then you need recipe and other material to craft it and result will be same weapon as full drop.
End of the day though they honestly should show these systems working and be clear on gear destruction part if its included. And see what the overall perception will be when it is shown and working. I'm just more aware of the long term effects on these kinds of things and that is something you could only understand working towards high end content.
I just can't see if you told someone I spent like 300 hours getting this gear and now its destroyed. Many people looking at it and seeing it as being a positive.
Better times does not mean copying over an exact system, or it is nostalgia for simply one feature over if it is something out is out dated or their designed come up with a more engaging and fun one.
And yet Steven copied L2's pvp system. And depending on what exactly he meant by "item gets destroyed if you fail an OE" during an interview, he might've taken L2's OE system too.
Your points for wanting it are simply because of nostalgia over any good fact that will further the game in design. I'd much rather hear your own unique approach to it, that does not involve gear destruction, maybe takes some things from linage 2 of course but has your own unique spin on it.
I have literally posted my own take in a response within this very conversation. But I made that take just to appeal to all the people who're yelling "omg my broken items that I didn't even think to back up! What will I ever do with my own hubris of thinking that I'll be the lucky one who get's the OE and not burn my stuff. Guess I'll die leave forever and ever".
My preferred system would still be the one from L2 I've seen/heard about the system in BDO, in LA, in B&S, I've read a ton of suggestions in this thread - and after all of that I still prefer L2's system. Not because of nostalgia, but because I just prefer that system.
It is a shame you didn't play bdo, its done a lot of work showing actual issues with a kind of system where there is gear destruction involved. It is very good for research and part of why that game will always be dead in the water.
Copied the pvp system yet wants to do his own twist on it as I'm pretty sure he mentioned there were some elements he felt could be better.
Honestly you are missing the point on gear destruction, I haven't seen one actual comment on my main points about it and how it can have a strong negative impact on the game.
Having the ability to have no gear does not compare to any other issue anyone has stated with any other element of the game they might have a issue with. Because having no gear means you have a reason to quit and not play again.
Creating a game out of nostalgia does not mean it is going to be a exact copy of a game out of nostalgia. They are 100% creating the game to be the best mmo they can and I'm sure it will be a great hardcore pvp mmorpg which is what I'm looking forward to
I just can't see if you told someone I spent like 300 hours getting this gear and now its destroyed. Many people looking at it and seeing it as being a positive.
The game should communicate risks and then its on you if you want to push it or not.Most people didn't enchant top tier gear in lineage - well they did but only to max safe level. After that you would over-enchant spares.
If you control raid bosses you will have more than enough parts to create item for enchanting.
Hopefully we will see this in motion during alpha 2 and feedback from players.
End of the day though they honestly should show these systems working and be clear on gear destruction part if its included. And see what the overall perception will be when it is shown and working. I'm just more aware of the long term effects on these kinds of things and that is something you could only understand working towards high end content.
I just can't see if you told someone I spent like 300 hours getting this gear and now its destroyed. Many people looking at it and seeing it as being a positive.
And I've played with this system for ~12 years and have seen hundreds if not thousands of people participating in the system and enjoying it. And not being dumb about not getting a damn backup. No one left because they lost some gear to the OE fails, because the only thing they lost was time - the same thing you'd lose in a 100% chance system where you just have to grind for hours upon hours to even get the chance to OE your gear.
The only times I've seen people leave the game after their OE fails is when they were leaving already and were just trying to OE their stuff as high as possible. And if some pieces outlived the amount of the OE scrolls - those pieces would then be given to friends/guildmates. But no one ever left due to failing an OE.
I just can't see if you told someone I spent like 300 hours getting this gear and now its destroyed. Many people looking at it and seeing it as being a positive.
The game should communicate risks and then its on you if you want to push it or not.Most people didn't enchant top tier gear in lineage - well they did but only to max safe level. After that you would over-enchant spares.
If you control raid bosses you will have more than enough parts to create item for enchanting.
Hopefully we will see this in motion during alpha 2 and feedback from players.
Ya its something they need to really put a hard spot light on for feedback. It will be hard to see long term issues from playtesting alone and that is the reason what I'm most worried for. After the play list and how people deal with the long term frustration. That is if they were to copy any system that involves gear destruction.
Part of the reason why i was trying to do an idea that is different and was hoping there would be more interesting ideas around to comment on that are a bit more unique.
It is a shame you didn't play bdo, its done a lot of work showing actual issues with a kind of system where there is gear destruction involved. It is very good for research and part of why that game will always be dead in the water.
BDO showed how not to do this system, while L2 showed how to do it right.
Copied the pvp system yet wants to do his own twist on it as I'm pretty sure he mentioned there were some elements he felt could be better.
Yeah, he casualized it so that it would fit with the current soft gamers. OE system is also soft, because it'll have ways of increasing your chance of success (though L2 had that too).
Honestly you are missing the point on gear destruction, I haven't seen one actual comment on my main points about it and how it can have a strong negative impact on the game.
Your only point is "people will leave because they were dumb enough to not get a back up before doing the riskiest thing they could do with their weapon". And as several people here have already said, that's on them and not on Intrepid or the system.
If you go out of your freehold, see a red player, approach it and get PKed, will you blame the system or will you know that it was your actions that led to your demise? OEing is literally the same. You make the choice of making that action and you need to know and be prepared for the consequences.
Destruction of your house is not the same as the gear
Yes. And they are trying to make it so you can just kind of redeploy your house. But along with your house you lose all gatherables. And things degrade in this world. And you have a max carry weight without somewhere to live. And its something that can be forced on you. You dont have full control of keeping your home in ashes.
Depending on the power increase of the enhancing, id say if it made each piece of gear by the end atleast 15% stronger at max enhance people would feel the need to do it. With a mix of just wanting to be stronger and competitive types of people. Is it there only for pvp or will you need to be very geared to do the best content as well.
If you can over enchant 5 times for 3% increase, each with increasing risk of item destruction. This allows lesser gear to compete with high end gear, as well as high end gear to compete with uniqe gear. And is incremental, so you dont have to go all the way. It helps blend the game into an anyone can challenge anyone system. Instead of those who are on top are on top, the rest of you suck.
I would like if end game pve elements were difficult enough for players to really have to go all out and use every system including this one.
If you lose gear that means you are losing or having a reduction in the content you can do as a player do to being weaker. The continued loop of this cycle will continue to have stronger backlash effects that will cause players to eventually quit, or have less of a reason to pick up the game months or a year from now.
Ashes has negative experience on death as well. Every death is a set back and lapse in player strength. And ashes isnt a "end game only" concept of mmo. There are lvl 10, 40 man raids. Content is based on which nodes are leveled. You wont see everything there is to see be max level. And if you never go back down to the lesser content you arent experiencing everything anyway.
And again, it works into the enviornment. And social aspects of this game. One crafter cant make everything. One gatherer cant gather everything, on refiner cant manage all the parts to a crafted item.
You arent talking, lets pop out 10 swords and try to make a max enchanted one. You are talking mobilizing 100 people towards a goal to make a single max enchanted gear set, which you may need 40 of for a max level 40 man raid. It brings together a community. It gives reason to celibrate when its completed. It give hope in the potential existing.
And its a game. Its not about if i get to the very end, its about the experience throughout. Over enchanting is an early game/mid game boon. Way more than it is an end game bane. Thats my opinion. If you dont like that once you get to the end its a repetitive grind to get 10% stronger. Go ahead. Stop playing. But it has to end somewhere. And id rather have something to do at the end than just pat myself on the back and say i did it.
End of the day though they honestly should show these systems working and be clear on gear destruction part if its included. And see what the overall perception will be when it is shown and working. I'm just more aware of the long term effects on these kinds of things and that is something you could only understand working towards high end content.
I just can't see if you told someone I spent like 300 hours getting this gear and now its destroyed. Many people looking at it and seeing it as being a positive.
And I've played with this system for ~12 years and have seen hundreds if not thousands of people participating in the system and enjoying it. And not being dumb about not getting a damn backup. No one left because they lost some gear to the OE fails, because the only thing they lost was time - the same thing you'd lose in a 100% chance system where you just have to grind for hours upon hours to even get the chance to OE your gear.
The only times I've seen people leave the game after their OE fails is when they were leaving already and were just trying to OE their stuff as high as possible. And if some pieces outlived the amount of the OE scrolls - those pieces would then be given to friends/guildmates. But no one ever left due to failing an OE.
There comes a point where hardcore players are not going to leave the game because they literally have no where else to go when it comes to mmorpgs like that.
You don't see people quitting at the start its something that happens more later on, so whatever the sweet point was at that game with the most players before it was dead later on in the years is what I would go off. And I'd find it highly unlikely that you wouldn't know anyone that quit over the enhancing system if their gear had blown up in the entirely of your time.
In my experience there are people that refuse to enhance, that gamble and blow their gear up, and some that are very lucky. There is never a instance where everyone is happy doing the same thing. My knowledge isn't just of my own group that played the game, but many other groups that I had talked to, or discovered they played bdo in the past.
"Not being dumb" That part honestly kind of worries me with your view point. Everyone does dumb things in mmos not every single perfect is perfect. There is no way every single player in the entire game is doing things in the most safe way.
Players deciding they are leaving already and blowing up their gear and seeing what happens is part of exactly what I'm talking about, they create a situation where they don't need to return to the game. This isn't something only consistent with a game being dead and them moving on, it can happy at any point, and nothing good comes of it as they might have played again a year later.
Destruction of your house is not the same as the gear
Yes. And they are trying to make it so you can just kind of redeploy your house. But along with your house you lose all gatherables. And things degrade in this world. And you have a max carry weight without somewhere to live. And its something that can be forced on you. You dont have full control of keeping your home in ashes.
Depending on the power increase of the enhancing, id say if it made each piece of gear by the end atleast 15% stronger at max enhance people would feel the need to do it. With a mix of just wanting to be stronger and competitive types of people. Is it there only for pvp or will you need to be very geared to do the best content as well.
If you can over enchant 5 times for 3% increase, each with increasing risk of item destruction. This allows lesser gear to compete with high end gear, as well as high end gear to compete with uniqe gear. And is incremental, so you dont have to go all the way. It helps blend the game into an anyone can challenge anyone system. Instead of those who are on top are on top, the rest of you suck.
I would like if end game pve elements were difficult enough for players to really have to go all out and use every system including this one.
If you lose gear that means you are losing or having a reduction in the content you can do as a player do to being weaker. The continued loop of this cycle will continue to have stronger backlash effects that will cause players to eventually quit, or have less of a reason to pick up the game months or a year from now.
Ashes has negative experience on death as well. Every death is a set back and lapse in player strength. And ashes isnt a "end game only" concept of mmo. There are lvl 10, 40 man raids. Content is based on which nodes are leveled. You wont see everything there is to see be max level. And if you never go back down to the lesser content you arent experiencing everything anyway.
And again, it works into the enviornment. And social aspects of this game. One crafter cant make everything. One gatherer cant gather everything, on refiner cant manage all the parts to a crafted item.
You arent talking, lets pop out 10 swords and try to make a max enchanted one. You are talking mobilizing 100 people towards a goal to make a single max enchanted gear set, which you may need 40 of for a max level 40 man raid. It brings together a community. It gives reason to celibrate when its completed. It give hope in the potential existing.
And its a game. Its not about if i get to the very end, its about the experience throughout. Over enchanting is an early game/mid game boon. Way more than it is an end game bane. Thats my opinion. If you dont like that once you get to the end its a repetitive grind to get 10% stronger. Go ahead. Stop playing. But it has to end somewhere. And id rather have something to do at the end than just pat myself on the back and say i did it.
Two points
housing is not the same as gear, people can have a connection which is fine, but you still can do content with a issue as long as you have your gear. That is why losing a house and losing gear are two different things all together.
You can design a game where you can challenge anyone on top based on however they do it and it being more casual. Which confuses me about your point about having something to do at the end, what does gear loss have to do with not having to do something at the end? You have have a enhancement system where you have things to do at the end without gear loss.
Gear loss is not the only way but it is the most toxic way. I'm hearing a lot of fluff as all these concepts ARE possible without doing gear destruction and the negative impacts it can create.
1. You aren't popping up 10 swords and getting a max enchant you are working together in groups to get the best possible items so you can enhance.
2. You will have something to do but every game eventually has a point where people reach cap and more content is introduced based on the time line they guess people reach it at.
3. crafters are still crafting i don't see how they will stop crafting when people need more gear to enhance on, and other content in the game.
Again all your things you like can be done without gear destruction. Even if it only affect like 10-20% of the players why add something in that could have negative effects? Why is it not possible to consider doing things in another way besides destruction?
Is there something wrong with a system that is not based on gambling and destruction that you think won't work for certain reasons?
I'm hearing a lot of fluff as all these concepts ARE possible without doing gear destruction and the negative impacts it can create.
The entire game is based on risk vs reward... like the foundation of the game. What you are purposing is "reward vs time"
The game, its foundation. Its open world pvp, its nodes and their seiges, its everything fits along the concept of risk vs reward. Item loss fits the feel of the game being made. If every concept of ashes can be made in a more casual and welcoming way.... you have a money making idea in your head and you need to go make that game.
I'm hearing a lot of fluff as all these concepts ARE possible without doing gear destruction and the negative impacts it can create.
The entire game is based on risk vs reward... like the foundation of the game. What you are purposing is "reward vs time"
The game, its foundation. Its open world pvp, its nodes and their seiges, its everything fits along the concept of risk vs reward. Item loss fits the feel of the game being made. If every concept of ashes can be made in a more casual and welcoming way.... you have a money making idea in your head and you need to go make that game.
I mentioned my idea for an alternative for an idea on page 10. Not revolving around gear destruction. and would ensure a long tread mill based on however one did the rng.
Was just talking to some that played linage 2 for a bit as well as other people that played it for a longer period of time, and I heard they hated the enhancement system in Linage. Even more so how punishing it was with gear destruction (though agrees maybe things got better later on). Which are all BDO players at the moment.
Mag7spy. You understand your weapons and armor break correct? No enchanting involved. You geting hit, or hiting something with your weapon degrades it. And eventually it breaks?
Was just talking to some that played linage 2 for a bit as well as other people that played it for a longer period of time, and I heard they hated the enhancement system in Linage. Even more so how punishing it was with gear destruction (though agrees maybe things got better later on). Which are all BDO players at the moment.
Just as a curiosity, did they always just OE w/o backups or did they always have them, or somewhere in-between?
Was just talking to some that played linage 2 for a bit as well as other people that played it for a longer period of time, and I heard they hated the enhancement system in Linage. Even more so how punishing it was with gear destruction (though agrees maybe things got better later on). Which are all BDO players at the moment.
Just as a curiosity, did they always just OE w/o backups or did they always have them, or somewhere in-between?
Can't say to what they did, just their view point on the system. The mind set of not having a back up isn't a sound safety as i believe the opportunity to blow things up is not something that can help a game grow with the issue it brings. Its the same argument with pay to win saying just don't give money and play as free to play. Doesn't matter if its a rip off or bad decision, our of frustration over the system the negative is not good.
Mag7spy. You understand your weapons and armor break correct? No enchanting involved. You geting hit, or hiting something with your weapon degrades it. And eventually it breaks?
I ask this because it is inherent to ashes of creation. Items have to break. There are true unique items, that if they did not degrade and break only one person would ever have a chance to get them. Items not being permanent is a staple of the game so far. You will have back up armor and weapons. Because they break and YOU can not repair them... you have to find a crafter capable. You have to find a jewler to fix your necklace, an armor smith to fix your armor, a tailor to fix your cape, a smith to fix your swords. You will have back ups. It would be absolutely foolish to run yourself out of gear somehow after managing to get to top level and not realize that things break
Mag7spy. You understand your weapons and armor break correct? No enchanting involved. You geting hit, or hiting something with your weapon degrades it. And eventually it breaks?
I have not seen them show in game weapons breaking/destroyed because you attack. (not including the fact you need to repair it of course)
Mag7spy. You understand your weapons and armor break correct? No enchanting involved. You geting hit, or hiting something with your weapon degrades it. And eventually it breaks?
I ask this because it is inherent to ashes of creation. Items have to break. There are true unique items, that if they did not degrade and break only one person would ever have a chance to get them. Items not being permanent is a staple of the game so far. You will have back up armor and weapons. Because they break and YOU can not repair them... you have to find a crafter capable. You have to find a jewler to fix your necklace, an armor smith to fix your armor, a tailor to fix your cape, a smith to fix your swords. You will have back ups. It would be absolutely foolish to run yourself out of gear somehow after managing to get to top level and not realize that things break
I'm assuming what you are saying is eventually the weapon you get through repairing can not be repaired anymore? Guess that is fine it can be kind of annoying thing based on how long you can use the weapon for. If you get a very rare drop then its destroyed in two days through enhancing id think that be kind of meh.
Is there a comment that they say in ashse of creation all gear you get is destroyed over time I don't remember hearing that statement. I know something like that was in crowfall and that game did terrible. If it is like that in Ashes i can see why there wouldn't be as much of a connection between gear the player has and such with things being destroyed all the time.
My understanding is that you used resources in the world to repair your gear and things were not destroyed from just using the weapon. Regardless on how people would feel about that, I can see why a enhancement system that destroys your gear would make sense in that sort of form if weapons are destroyed overtime no matter what you do.
I'm assuming what you are saying is eventually the weapon you get through repairing can not be repaired anymore?
I mean i dont know for certain, the game is not complete. But my understanding of true unique items existing as drops and that how they come up for grabs again is by eventually breaking. I assume there is a limit to how much an item can be repaired, and eventually it must break.
And so knowing everything breaks eventually. How do you feel about an over enchanting system that risks breaking your weapons?
An item That it sucessfully over enchanted is more something you hold onto for when your home it threatened or a very hard raid comes up. Since no weapon is permanent, you save your very best for when you need it.
I'm assuming what you are saying is eventually the weapon you get through repairing can not be repaired anymore?
I mean i dont know for certain, the game is not complete. But my understanding of true unique items existing as drops and that how they come up for grabs again is by eventually breaking. I assume there is a limit to how much an item can be repaired, and eventually it must break.
And so knowing everything breaks eventually. How do you feel about an over enchanting system that risks breaking your weapons?
An item That it sucessfully over enchanted is more something you hold onto for when your home it threatened or a very hard raid comes up. Since no weapon is permanent, you save your very best for when you need it.
I've never had the perception that were was truly unique items from anything I've heard or the normal kind of very rare drops would ever work like that. I've heard repeated again and again you use mats to repair your weapon, ive never heard the weapon is broken forever.
I'd be raising other red flags on certain elements as there would be no point over enchanting something that has less than a 1% drop rate chance as its power should equal up to how rare it is and would go way above a 15% increase in power to be worth enhancing.
I'd say if it was the case of all weapons destroyed by being used and unrepairable I guess that kind of enhancement would be fine because I feel there would be other issues to worry about. Though i feel this is more a scenario you are creating to make sense of destruction kind of enhancements.
I have some points on the matter based on what I have heard
1. What would be the point of breaking down rare items to repair materials to repair your rare weapon unless I've miss heard and rare weapons can't be broken down.
2. If the enhancement system relies on a extremely rare drop as well as enhancement chance to increase its power there is almost no point risking for such a small power increase. Which kind of goes against the point of the system if there is stronger reason to not do that with your gear.
Honestly you can do risk another way, through enhancing it can greatly reduce durability over just destroying the weapon. So you can have your gambling risk of being able to use it for a longer period of time or a much shorter period of time. ie if you are very unlucky it only last for a day, if you are very lucky it last for 2 weeks of active use.
That be much better then destroying a rare weapon having the risk without over frustration of getting one item once every 3 months and not even able to use it if you choose to enhance it for the bonus. So my view point though ok about the general idea, destroying is still not the way to go best if it worked in that kind of way of everything being destroyed.
And this is where the risk reward comes into balance. True unique weapons and armor, 1 of 1 items are going to be in ashes. And eventual destruction is how they return to the drop tables.
Now if these true unique items are 10- 15 % better than top grade items, then over enchanting top grade items to make up for that gap becomes an option.
But also risking over enchanting a unique item would be foolish... what if it breaks and poof its just gone. However... if you managed to over enchant a unique item, now you really have something with no equal
Ive been trying to find the quote for you about truly unique items, but its not mentioned on the wiki.... and i have no idea what video it would be in when steven talks about them.... sorry. Take my word for it or dont, no big deal
Also the wiki does state that degradation will not delete a weapon, as it will always be able to be repaired. Including from over enchanting destruction...? So now i am lost since enchanting cant delete a weapon, you just break it and repair it again, and im lost on how unique items will be taken from whoever gets it and put back in the drop table
And this is where the risk reward comes into balance. True unique weapons and armor, 1 of 1 items are going to be in ashes. And eventual destruction is how they return to the drop tables.
Now if these true unique items are 10- 15 % better than top grade items, then over enchanting top grade items to make up for that gap becomes an option.
But also risking over enchanting a unique item would be foolish... what if it breaks and poof its just gone. However... if you managed to over enchant a unique item, now you really have something with no equal
I can say its still better to not have items be destroyed through enhancing people should always get a chance to use their gear. It be better to have an escalated increase in decay. With the risk still showing in that kind of system.
Just to make it extra clear even IF gear is destroyed from just using it, which will annoy people. Gear being destroy through enhancing is still not good. In fact it kind of ruins the whole you need gear to be destroyed from enhancing for the market. This effectively makes it so there is no reason for failing to cause that. There are many other ways to go about risk anyway.
Somehow you made me think more about this and against gear destroyed in enhancing xD.
Comments
-short quote i know, sorry. But im trying to find your points of arguments.
So you're against it because gambling, and the potential loss of player base, and you dont like the concept of gear destruction...
You can lose your house in ashes... you can lose your city. The only way you lose your gear is if you fail to repair it or over enchant it... its one of the few things that you yourself can actually just protect. No one can take it from you. If you dont want to over enchant and compete at the highest lvls.... dont? Idk why your preference should remove the choice for others
You can not agree with me its fine, I just want to hear any reason why its a good thing besides it sounds cool or nostalgia. I understand where you are coming from but I don't believe people are going to just destroy their powerful gear for a smaller stat increase without having a dup. Else they are trying to give a reason to quit the game, and you can help the economy with enhancing without gear destruction.
Or counter my own points if they aren't strong so I can think about them.
Edit* just saw your other post reading
Ive made some points.
I think it helps balancing for one. Without a way to shift gears value, how does teir 1 gear compete with teir 2? It doesnt.
It helps the economy. Because guilds seting out to over enchant a top level weapon or armor peice will start buying up all the resources they can because of the destruction failure attempts.
You took my "its fun" and wrote off my whole post.
I think your perspective in general is a very solo player outlook.
My preferred system would still be the one from L2
The argument, people are going to quit over it, doesnt really apply here. Ashes is a different kind of game than an mmo you log into and do your chores.
Destruction of your house is not the same as the gear, they are even making it easier to hopefully rebuild your placement the best they can in another area.
Depending on the power increase of the enhancing, id say if it made each piece of gear by the end atleast 15% stronger at max enhance people would feel the need to do it. With a mix of just wanting to be stronger and competitive types of people. Is it there only for pvp or will you need to be very geared to do the best content as well.
Either or it would create a cut off in gear and strength and becomes not something you don't have to do but something players view as you need the gear as much as possible and will push towards it. It will 100% be effective in stalling people as that is the goal of the system, to try to cap a percentage of the players strength over time through rng so they have to keep working and grinding at it.
Through preventing players any system will cause backlash but the backlash of players losing gear can cause players to not have a reason to come back to the game. It is a pretty big point, if you lose your house you still can rebuild, play the game and have fun. If you lose gear that means you are losing or having a reduction in the content you can do as a player do to being weaker. The continued loop of this cycle will continue to have stronger backlash effects that will cause players to eventually quit, or have less of a reason to pick up the game months or a year from now.
My preference as many other people that have experience or seen enhancement systems is a distain for gear destruction. I could ask you the same thing if most people that have played / watched these types of games dislike that certain aspect of it. Why can there not be another system that has its own hardcore elements without gear destruction? Why does a small amount of people have to be like gear destruction is the only way that they will find the most fun? The only types I've seen like that are ones that are addicted to the rush of gambling or have not fully experience how far infinite enhancing can go and the impact with gear destruction / level reduction.
If memory servers well. it was common to enchant other "raw" weapons instead of main one with other effects applied.If you managed to make it +6 for example then you would make it your main weapon and customize further.
Most heavily over-enchanted weapons were lower tier because A and S tier was really expensive.
If I remember B grade +16 was on par with base S grade. But 16 was really rare. Most heavily over-enchanted weapons were D and C grade.
I am expecting similar system in AoC. And the item destruction cycle is part of the economy. You over-enchant and if it fails you get material that you can use for repair or additional crafting.
About weapons from boss and crafting. In lineage, and I am expecting a lot of similarities here, it were basically same weapons. You could drop full weapons from boss but much more often you would drop "parts" needed to craft said weapon. Lets say you need 14 parts of sword to craft it and boss will drop 20-55 parts per kill. Then you need recipe and other material to craft it and result will be same weapon as full drop.
I just can't see if you told someone I spent like 300 hours getting this gear and now its destroyed. Many people looking at it and seeing it as being a positive.
It is a shame you didn't play bdo, its done a lot of work showing actual issues with a kind of system where there is gear destruction involved. It is very good for research and part of why that game will always be dead in the water.
Copied the pvp system yet wants to do his own twist on it as I'm pretty sure he mentioned there were some elements he felt could be better.
Honestly you are missing the point on gear destruction, I haven't seen one actual comment on my main points about it and how it can have a strong negative impact on the game.
Having the ability to have no gear does not compare to any other issue anyone has stated with any other element of the game they might have a issue with. Because having no gear means you have a reason to quit and not play again.
Creating a game out of nostalgia does not mean it is going to be a exact copy of a game out of nostalgia. They are 100% creating the game to be the best mmo they can and I'm sure it will be a great hardcore pvp mmorpg which is what I'm looking forward to
The game should communicate risks and then its on you if you want to push it or not.Most people didn't enchant top tier gear in lineage - well they did but only to max safe level. After that you would over-enchant spares.
If you control raid bosses you will have more than enough parts to create item for enchanting.
Hopefully we will see this in motion during alpha 2 and feedback from players.
The only times I've seen people leave the game after their OE fails is when they were leaving already and were just trying to OE their stuff as high as possible. And if some pieces outlived the amount of the OE scrolls - those pieces would then be given to friends/guildmates. But no one ever left due to failing an OE.
Ya its something they need to really put a hard spot light on for feedback. It will be hard to see long term issues from playtesting alone and that is the reason what I'm most worried for. After the play list and how people deal with the long term frustration. That is if they were to copy any system that involves gear destruction.
Part of the reason why i was trying to do an idea that is different and was hoping there would be more interesting ideas around to comment on that are a bit more unique.
If you go out of your freehold, see a red player, approach it and get PKed, will you blame the system or will you know that it was your actions that led to your demise? OEing is literally the same. You make the choice of making that action and you need to know and be prepared for the consequences.
Yes. And they are trying to make it so you can just kind of redeploy your house. But along with your house you lose all gatherables. And things degrade in this world. And you have a max carry weight without somewhere to live. And its something that can be forced on you. You dont have full control of keeping your home in ashes.
If you can over enchant 5 times for 3% increase, each with increasing risk of item destruction. This allows lesser gear to compete with high end gear, as well as high end gear to compete with uniqe gear. And is incremental, so you dont have to go all the way. It helps blend the game into an anyone can challenge anyone system. Instead of those who are on top are on top, the rest of you suck.
I would like if end game pve elements were difficult enough for players to really have to go all out and use every system including this one.
Ashes has negative experience on death as well. Every death is a set back and lapse in player strength. And ashes isnt a "end game only" concept of mmo. There are lvl 10, 40 man raids. Content is based on which nodes are leveled. You wont see everything there is to see be max level. And if you never go back down to the lesser content you arent experiencing everything anyway.
And again, it works into the enviornment. And social aspects of this game. One crafter cant make everything. One gatherer cant gather everything, on refiner cant manage all the parts to a crafted item.
You arent talking, lets pop out 10 swords and try to make a max enchanted one. You are talking mobilizing 100 people towards a goal to make a single max enchanted gear set, which you may need 40 of for a max level 40 man raid. It brings together a community. It gives reason to celibrate when its completed. It give hope in the potential existing.
And its a game. Its not about if i get to the very end, its about the experience throughout. Over enchanting is an early game/mid game boon. Way more than it is an end game bane. Thats my opinion. If you dont like that once you get to the end its a repetitive grind to get 10% stronger. Go ahead. Stop playing. But it has to end somewhere. And id rather have something to do at the end than just pat myself on the back and say i did it.
There comes a point where hardcore players are not going to leave the game because they literally have no where else to go when it comes to mmorpgs like that.
You don't see people quitting at the start its something that happens more later on, so whatever the sweet point was at that game with the most players before it was dead later on in the years is what I would go off. And I'd find it highly unlikely that you wouldn't know anyone that quit over the enhancing system if their gear had blown up in the entirely of your time.
In my experience there are people that refuse to enhance, that gamble and blow their gear up, and some that are very lucky. There is never a instance where everyone is happy doing the same thing. My knowledge isn't just of my own group that played the game, but many other groups that I had talked to, or discovered they played bdo in the past.
"Not being dumb" That part honestly kind of worries me with your view point. Everyone does dumb things in mmos not every single perfect is perfect. There is no way every single player in the entire game is doing things in the most safe way.
Players deciding they are leaving already and blowing up their gear and seeing what happens is part of exactly what I'm talking about, they create a situation where they don't need to return to the game. This isn't something only consistent with a game being dead and them moving on, it can happy at any point, and nothing good comes of it as they might have played again a year later.
Two points
housing is not the same as gear, people can have a connection which is fine, but you still can do content with a issue as long as you have your gear. That is why losing a house and losing gear are two different things all together.
You can design a game where you can challenge anyone on top based on however they do it and it being more casual. Which confuses me about your point about having something to do at the end, what does gear loss have to do with not having to do something at the end? You have have a enhancement system where you have things to do at the end without gear loss.
Gear loss is not the only way but it is the most toxic way. I'm hearing a lot of fluff as all these concepts ARE possible without doing gear destruction and the negative impacts it can create.
1. You aren't popping up 10 swords and getting a max enchant you are working together in groups to get the best possible items so you can enhance.
2. You will have something to do but every game eventually has a point where people reach cap and more content is introduced based on the time line they guess people reach it at.
3. crafters are still crafting i don't see how they will stop crafting when people need more gear to enhance on, and other content in the game.
Again all your things you like can be done without gear destruction. Even if it only affect like 10-20% of the players why add something in that could have negative effects? Why is it not possible to consider doing things in another way besides destruction?
Is there something wrong with a system that is not based on gambling and destruction that you think won't work for certain reasons?
Tell me this system you have thats not based on gambling and distruction?
I dont see an actual alternative in any of your posts.
Ah yes. They can just do it... however they do that.... yes.... of course.
The entire game is based on risk vs reward... like the foundation of the game. What you are purposing is "reward vs time"
The game, its foundation. Its open world pvp, its nodes and their seiges, its everything fits along the concept of risk vs reward. Item loss fits the feel of the game being made. If every concept of ashes can be made in a more casual and welcoming way.... you have a money making idea in your head and you need to go make that game.
I mentioned my idea for an alternative for an idea on page 10. Not revolving around gear destruction. and would ensure a long tread mill based on however one did the rng.
Can't say to what they did, just their view point on the system. The mind set of not having a back up isn't a sound safety as i believe the opportunity to blow things up is not something that can help a game grow with the issue it brings. Its the same argument with pay to win saying just don't give money and play as free to play. Doesn't matter if its a rip off or bad decision, our of frustration over the system the negative is not good.
I ask this because it is inherent to ashes of creation. Items have to break. There are true unique items, that if they did not degrade and break only one person would ever have a chance to get them. Items not being permanent is a staple of the game so far. You will have back up armor and weapons. Because they break and YOU can not repair them... you have to find a crafter capable. You have to find a jewler to fix your necklace, an armor smith to fix your armor, a tailor to fix your cape, a smith to fix your swords. You will have back ups. It would be absolutely foolish to run yourself out of gear somehow after managing to get to top level and not realize that things break
I have not seen them show in game weapons breaking/destroyed because you attack. (not including the fact you need to repair it of course)
I'm assuming what you are saying is eventually the weapon you get through repairing can not be repaired anymore? Guess that is fine it can be kind of annoying thing based on how long you can use the weapon for. If you get a very rare drop then its destroyed in two days through enhancing id think that be kind of meh.
Is there a comment that they say in ashse of creation all gear you get is destroyed over time I don't remember hearing that statement. I know something like that was in crowfall and that game did terrible. If it is like that in Ashes i can see why there wouldn't be as much of a connection between gear the player has and such with things being destroyed all the time.
My understanding is that you used resources in the world to repair your gear and things were not destroyed from just using the weapon. Regardless on how people would feel about that, I can see why a enhancement system that destroys your gear would make sense in that sort of form if weapons are destroyed overtime no matter what you do.
I mean i dont know for certain, the game is not complete. But my understanding of true unique items existing as drops and that how they come up for grabs again is by eventually breaking. I assume there is a limit to how much an item can be repaired, and eventually it must break.
And so knowing everything breaks eventually. How do you feel about an over enchanting system that risks breaking your weapons?
An item That it sucessfully over enchanted is more something you hold onto for when your home it threatened or a very hard raid comes up. Since no weapon is permanent, you save your very best for when you need it.
I've never had the perception that were was truly unique items from anything I've heard or the normal kind of very rare drops would ever work like that. I've heard repeated again and again you use mats to repair your weapon, ive never heard the weapon is broken forever.
I'd be raising other red flags on certain elements as there would be no point over enchanting something that has less than a 1% drop rate chance as its power should equal up to how rare it is and would go way above a 15% increase in power to be worth enhancing.
I'd say if it was the case of all weapons destroyed by being used and unrepairable I guess that kind of enhancement would be fine because I feel there would be other issues to worry about. Though i feel this is more a scenario you are creating to make sense of destruction kind of enhancements.
I have some points on the matter based on what I have heard
1. What would be the point of breaking down rare items to repair materials to repair your rare weapon unless I've miss heard and rare weapons can't be broken down.
2. If the enhancement system relies on a extremely rare drop as well as enhancement chance to increase its power there is almost no point risking for such a small power increase. Which kind of goes against the point of the system if there is stronger reason to not do that with your gear.
Honestly you can do risk another way, through enhancing it can greatly reduce durability over just destroying the weapon. So you can have your gambling risk of being able to use it for a longer period of time or a much shorter period of time. ie if you are very unlucky it only last for a day, if you are very lucky it last for 2 weeks of active use.
That be much better then destroying a rare weapon having the risk without over frustration of getting one item once every 3 months and not even able to use it if you choose to enhance it for the bonus. So my view point though ok about the general idea, destroying is still not the way to go best if it worked in that kind of way of everything being destroyed.
Now if these true unique items are 10- 15 % better than top grade items, then over enchanting top grade items to make up for that gap becomes an option.
But also risking over enchanting a unique item would be foolish... what if it breaks and poof its just gone. However... if you managed to over enchant a unique item, now you really have something with no equal
Ive been trying to find the quote for you about truly unique items, but its not mentioned on the wiki.... and i have no idea what video it would be in when steven talks about them.... sorry. Take my word for it or dont, no big deal
Also the wiki does state that degradation will not delete a weapon, as it will always be able to be repaired. Including from over enchanting destruction...? So now i am lost since enchanting cant delete a weapon, you just break it and repair it again, and im lost on how unique items will be taken from whoever gets it and put back in the drop table
I can say its still better to not have items be destroyed through enhancing people should always get a chance to use their gear. It be better to have an escalated increase in decay. With the risk still showing in that kind of system.
Just to make it extra clear even IF gear is destroyed from just using it, which will annoy people. Gear being destroy through enhancing is still not good. In fact it kind of ruins the whole you need gear to be destroyed from enhancing for the market. This effectively makes it so there is no reason for failing to cause that. There are many other ways to go about risk anyway.
Somehow you made me think more about this and against gear destroyed in enhancing xD.