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Discussion about grinds

deadmanspricedeadmansprice Moderator, Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
After having a discussion with someone on our Discord, it got me thinking about what our community wants grind to be like in Ashes of Creation.

I've got some questions for you all:
- What are your definitions of a good grind?
- What MMO had a good grind system and what made it good?
- How would you want grind to be implemented in the game?
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Comments

  • NiKrNiKr Member
    edited May 17
    For me it was always the reward of my actions and constant pressure of potential pvp. If I came to some location to drop an item from a mob, I'm completely fine with farming that same location for several days if I get to fight other people for the same location. And once I drop that item, I'm freaking ecstatic. But usually, the longer I farmed the location, the more excited I'd be. In other words, I guess I'm somewhat of a masochist myself.

    With the game in question being Lineage 2, obviously.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Take what @NiKr said, type it again, and sign it TauTau.
  • AshganAshgan Member
    Good grinds are ones where you make progress, input leading to output, example would be crafting where you gather resources that after gathering enough you can make into something.
    Bad grinds are anything that just relies on pure RNG like certain Korean MMO upgrade systems or loot drops. They rely on that dopamine hit once you get that item but overall it's a shit system.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    In groups, I can accept any amount of dynamic grind, it doesn't even feel like a grind, to me, at that point.

    Honing skills, timings, spacings, coordination, synergies... it is only 'bad' when it becomes easy, but if it becomes easy, then you just go up a difficulty tier in terms of enemies.

    If it's 'pull these enemies to this spot and wait for your abilities to AoE them down' then I can stand it for about 10-20 minutes at a time, and after that I start thinking about how it could be better or how to make it more interesting.

    It's really bad for my roleplay, too. Without unexpected things happening to affect the rhythm, my RP suffers terribly, and I end up disengaged.

    This isn't an answer relative to 'amount of hours it takes to level' because I'll 'grind' like this even in games without any system of leveling, if it's dynamic enough. Just make sure to take breaks (on the scale of days, not the short ones while playing) to bring the feeling back.

    Adding random PvP to this generally makes it better, but most games don't design or balance that well enough for me to care.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • ogreogre Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Imo runescape unironically has some of the best “grind” in the genre…not that such a type of grind would necessarily fit a game like this. Hopefully crafting and gathering skills take a long time to “max”. I also hope that the drop tables of at least some enemies have some extremely rare drops, whether it be materials or some sort of usable gear/items, love that sort of thing, otherwise it can feel extremely lacklustre killing mobs imo. The more jank sidegrades and situationally useful utility items available to players the more fun the game is.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Grinds cannot be good.
    It's either bad enough to feel like a grind or else you are just doing fun stuff.
    Grinding is doing the same tedious, repeitive task over and over and over again for hours, just for a little bit of xp.

    Quests exist so that we have stories backing what we're doing and the quest rewards should compensateus well enough that completing each quest feels worthwhile. Rather than just hunting mobs or picking flowers because they exist and doing so gives us a tiny bit of xp.

    Grind should not be "implemented".
    Technically, it should be possible to gain tiny bits of xp without byhunting and gathering without associated quests. But there should be plenty of quests and tasks that impact the world sfficiently enough that we are focused on changing the world and gaining considerable chunks of xp or sizeable rewards that we won't choose to grind bits of xp without significant rewards.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    Grind should not be "implemented".
    Technically, it should be possible to gain tiny bits of xp without byhunting and gathering without associated quests. But there should be plenty of quests and tasks that impact the world sfficiently enough that we are focused on changing the world and gaining considerable chunks of xp or sizeable rewards that we won't choose to grind bits of xp without significant rewards.
    But what do you do when those quests end? Or when you're blocked by node progress and have outlvled any current mobs or quests or even your chosen artisan branch. Should there be something for people who have done all those things and want more or should it be the FF14 way of "play the game to its current fullest and go touch grass"?
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I've got some questions for you all:
    - What are your definitions of a good grind?

    If it's a good grind I'm only going to remember the good part.
    - What MMO had a good grind system and what made it good?

    FFXI - required full group coordination when fighting at level targets, required more than just bodily participation even when fighting lower level targets in group. The tactical points system really incentivized paying attention and trying to get your group coordination down even when the fight wasn't particularly hard. Since enemies also had access to tp, it made them more responsive to group pressure and let rudimentary ai lift far above it's weight class. https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Tactical_Points here's the full explanation of what they are if you are really interested.
    - How would you want grind to be implemented in the game?

    Well golly deadmansprice aren't you asking the tough question today. Grind is a basic necessity of any mmo or becomes a different genre (monster hunter). Make your mobs mean, responsive, adaptive, and smart. Make your battle system require tactical thought and coordination with a high skill ceiling. I genuinely think TP attacks are the way to most effectively achieve this in basically any game. I'm hoping 'proc' attacks have a similar place in Ashes.
    Celebrating the first caravancery anniversary with bursary sorcery.
  • AshganAshgan Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    Grinds cannot be good.
    It's either bad enough to feel like a grind or else you are just doing fun stuff.
    Everything is a grind if you do it repeatedly and doing something long enough will always get tedious eventually even if it is the most fun thing ever turning it into a grind. So in that regard there are good and bad grinds just not in terms of fun or not but what makes them more tolerable.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    I know everyone has a slightly different definition of ‘grind’.

    A grind for me has always been slogging through mobs to get that last three bars of xp to the next level. I don’t think that needs to be a planned leveling strategy. I’m hoping there will be enough content and xp gain from the systems around the node to help keep the need for grind to a minimum.

    I’m sure there will be players that will walk into the wilderness swinging at everything in their path like a lawnmower to gain levels. WoW was certainly like that to level toons via LFG.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Grinds cannot be good.
    It's either bad enough to feel like a grind or else you are just doing fun stuff.
    Grinding is doing the same tedious, repeitive task over and over and over again for hours, just for a little bit of xp.

    Quests exist so that we have stories backing what we're doing and the quest rewards should compensateus well enough that completing each quest feels worthwhile. Rather than just hunting mobs or picking flowers because they exist and doing so gives us a tiny bit of xp.

    Grind should not be "implemented".
    Technically, it should be possible to gain tiny bits of xp without byhunting and gathering without associated quests. But there should be plenty of quests and tasks that impact the world sfficiently enough that we are focused on changing the world and gaining considerable chunks of xp or sizeable rewards that we won't choose to grind bits of xp without significant rewards.

    If there is no creative alternative to obtain what one is after? I'm THEN okay with a grind; It should be a chore-alternative means to an end that otherwise didn't pan out with the creative means that only offered a small chance of obtain....ance(?); If the thing that offered a small chance of success was fun but didn't pay out, why not offer alternative, less-attractive means by which to obtain something? Both offer a reward.

    It's not a universal alternative; some things should ONLY be obtained by chance and risk - but especially low-level or generic stuff might benefit from different means to an end. Either way, a player can be happy about feeling like they earned something, be it by encountering the rare/occasional bit of luck, or by sheer determination.



  • FrostshotFrostshot Member
    Good grinds are ones where your progress is measurable. So you can see that your hard work is making progress towards your desired goal. As already stated in someone else's post, BAD grinds are RNG based. Anything that relies completely on RNG tends to annoy me. Sure loot drops are RNG but were talking grinds which are usually not just about a loot drops. We hope.

    For example Lost Arks RNG version of time gating content is crap. By this I mean their honing system.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 17
    NiKr wrote: »
    But what do you do when those quests end? Or when you're blocked by node progress and have outlvled any current mobs or quests or even your chosen artisan branch. Should there be something for people who have done all those things and want more or should it be the FF14 way of "play the game to its current fullest and go touch grass"?
    That's why Ashes has Node progression, Social Org progression and Racial Progression, in addition to Artisan progression and Events.
    Quests should not come to an end. Especially, not merely because Adventurer Level is maxed.
    I don't know how you get "blocked" by Node progression. There are tons of Nodes on each server.
    You can't do all of the things in Ashes. Ashes is not a static game.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    If there is no creative alternative to obtain what one is after? I'm THEN okay with a grind; It should be a chore-alternative means to an end that otherwise didn't pan out with the creative means that only offered a small chance of obtain....ance(?); If the thing that offered a small chance of success was fun but didn't pay out, why not offer alternative, less-attractive means by which to obtain something? Both offer a reward.

    It's not a universal alternative; some things should ONLY be obtained by chance and risk - but especially low-level or generic stuff might benefit from different means to an end. Either way, a player can be happy about feeling like they earned something, be it by encountering the rare/occasional bit of luck, or by sheer determination.

    I didn't really understand what you wrote, but...
    It kinda sounds to me like you said, "If I have to eat fish eyes to survive because that's all there is, I will eat fish eyes."
    And my response is, "Getting to a point where all there is to eat is fish eyes is not a good thing."
    If something is fun, it's not a grind.

  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    That's why Ashes has Node progression, Social Org progression and Racial Progression, in addition to Artisan progression and Events.
    Quests should not come to an end. Especially, not merely because Adventurer Level is maxed.
    I don't know how you get "blocked" by Node progression. There are tons of Nodes on each server.
    You can't do all of the things in Ashes. Ashes is not a static game.
    Intrepid intends to have 45 days of leveling 4-6h a day. Most likely at least some of that time is calculated with Nodes advancing slower than people's lvls.

    So considering that, if a person plays 16h a day instead of 4-6, what will they do once they outlvl node's mobs?
    They'd probably go do their artisan and social stuff, right? That'll most likely also be blocked by node progress, so there's a ceiling on that progress too.

    So the player will go do random menial quests, right? And if those are semi-randomly generated, how can they not become grindy to a person who's done everything else the game has to offer at that point while still wanting more content? Or do you think Intrepid can somehow make enough unique content that a super hardcore player will never run out of it?

    Cause I personally don't see how that's in any way feasible.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    For me the starting point of grind has to be at the backdrop of open world pvp, without instances, in order for every day to be an unpredictable adventure. Levels 40-50 should equal 1-39 + class quests in terms of gameplay duration. The grind should rly be felt at mid-high lvs.

    I would like the combat class lv up to be a grind, in which players can:
    Solo or duo kill mobs with low HP (and mb high dmg) that dont reward too much xp.

    Form full or 5man parties to go into areas and buildings were tough, swarming mobs reward the best xp, with very low chance for whole item drops.

    Take on open world raidbosses for the best time/xp ratio with 50-50 chances of whole item loots.

    Material gathering should also be a grind. But ideally, I see clusters of good raw materials spawning in areas with tough challenging mobs.
    So let's say one day your guild wants to helo mages and archers craft bows and staves. The group with a lumberjack should venture in a tough area with good high quality wood materials. The next day they go with the blacksmith the group should venture in a different area for ore.

    Such a grind system isnt a grind. It's a live game where you cooporate with other guild members, encounter strangers and form friendships or rivalries.
    Not like todays mmos.
  • AshganAshgan Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    That's why Ashes has Node progression, Social Org progression and Racial Progression, in addition to Artisan progression and Events.
    Quests should not come to an end. Especially, not merely because Adventurer Level is maxed.
    I don't know how you get "blocked" by Node progression. There are tons of Nodes on each server.
    You can't do all of the things in Ashes. Ashes is not a static game.
    Intrepid intends to have 45 days of leveling 4-6h a day. Most likely at least some of that time is calculated with Nodes advancing slower than people's lvls.

    So considering that, if a person plays 16h a day instead of 4-6, what will they do once they outlvl node's mobs?
    They'd probably go do their artisan and social stuff, right? That'll most likely also be blocked by node progress, so there's a ceiling on that progress too.

    So the player will go do random menial quests, right? And if those are semi-randomly generated, how can they not become grindy to a person who's done everything else the game has to offer at that point while still wanting more content? Or do you think Intrepid can somehow make enough unique content that a super hardcore player will never run out of it?

    Cause I personally don't see how that's in any way feasible.

    I would assume you would start doing more repeatable things like protecting caravans.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Grinding started to collect resources from mobs. Farming then started to collect stuff from bosses.

    In Ashes, you will grind/Farm the same way. You just won't level from mob xp.

    One dude spent years on MoP just killing boars at 1xp per kill. His panda toon was trapped because the player wanted to remain neutral lol.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 17
    NiKr wrote: »
    Intrepid intends to have 45 days of leveling 4-6h a day. Most likely at least some of that time is calculated with Nodes advancing slower than people's lvls.
    What you mean is 45 days to max Adventure Level.
    Adventurer is not the only form of progression in the game.

    NiKr wrote: »
    So considering that, if a person plays 16h a day instead of 4-6, what will they do once they outlvl node's mobs?
    At max Adventurer Level, you continue to work on Node progression, Node defense, Racial progression, Social Org Progression, Events, Government control, etc...
    Attaing gear with the stats you want. Exploring the new content that appears as Nodes rise and fall.

    NiKr wrote: »
    So the player will go do random menial quests, right? And if those are semi-randomly generated, how can they not become grindy to a person who's done everything else the game has to offer at that point while still wanting more content? Or do you think Intrepid can somehow make enough unique content that a super hardcore player will never run out of it?
    Why would quests be menial just because you are at max Adventurer level>
    Why would the quests be semi-randomly generated. Quests and tasks are generated based on how player actions impact the world. Onecharacter cannot do everything in the world.
    Ashes is not a static world.
    The purpose of the Node system is so that players don't run out of content. If the Node system fails to do that, then Ashes is basically just another EQ or ArcheAge or BDO.

    NiKr wrote: »
    Cause I personally don't see how that's in any way feasible.
    Then...you don't understand the game design.

    Protecting Caravans starts before max level Adventurer and continues indefinitely as the Castles and Nodes you support rise and fall.
  • BalanzBalanz Member
    Based on my experience a couple decades ago, grinding was killing mobs to gain experience or drops, or repeating combines to raise a trade skill.

    What made them enjoyable was first, finding a solution to the grind that worked for me, and second the achievement at the end of that grind.

    Finding a solution includes thing like finding a camp or area, and mastering the tactics to grind there, or acquiring the materials required for the trade skill grind, along with the skill necessary to get to that point.

    As a Magician in EverQuest, I was an accomplished soloer, as well as a grouper and raider, but trade skills were definitely more a matter of soloing.

    Ashes can improve on the experience grind by discouraging soloing, and Ashes economy should make trade skills a social activity. Farming drops should likewise be subject to the tension of PvP.

    So basically, grinding in Ashes should be primarily a social activity, so it should feel a lot more like playing and a lot less like work.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    No. Grinding with friends is not really more fun than grinding solo. Grinding is a grind.
    Questing with friends is fun. Farming with friends can be OK.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    What you mean is 45 days to max Adventure Level.
    Adventurer is not the only form of progression in the game.
    Dygz, I'm talking exactly about the first few weeks when no other nodes have even gotten to lvl 5-6. Let's say I'm playing 18h/d cause I'm hardcore like that. Nodes level up waaay slower than my adventure lvl or any other content that is present within a lvl 2-3 node.

    I've done any and all unique quests that are in the reasonable vicinity from me (and I doubt that going across the world will all of a sudden provide me with more unique quests that would fill up my gametime).

    I've leveled up all my possible artisan professions to their max, or at least to a point that requires higher lvl content that comes with higher lvl nodes.

    I've done all the social org stuff, because it too requires higher lvl nodes.

    Castle sieges are nowhere close because people are underlvled and are just getting used to the game and node sieges are too expensive, considering that we've only gotten a few lvl 4 (if any), and in the current alleged design there's a 21 day ban on sieging lvl3 nodes too.

    All that I'm left with, content-wise, are caravans. And caravans are just running back and forth between nodes. And imo there's a fair chance that caravans won't even be run often enough to support a 18h/d playtime. But even if there is enough of them, that to me seems like a grind, because it's a repeated same task.

    So again, how can a player like that avoid grind? Is it impossible or do you just not consider that kind of repeated task a grind?
  • PercimesPercimes Member
    My perspectives in games...
    Grinding: doing a repetitive task because it's required to get to the next step in any endeavour.
    Farming: doing a repetitive task because I want to.

    Some have expressed the joy of getting a reward out of their grind, like a random drop. I don't. For me it has always felt as a relief of no longer having to do that stupid/boring thing. The "reward", when I got it, felt more like a reminder of my misery. I had moved on before I could move on. This is, in part, why I just can't care about loot and gear: too much hassle, too much time wasted.

    How many Trolls do you need to kill in Strangletorn Vale to get 15 ears? Between 45 to 48.
    How many time did we have to repeat that dungeon in WAR for our tank to get all his pieces of gear? Twice a week for a little over a month. The rest of us got all our stuff in 2 weeks but his refused to drop. Group of 6, not a raid.

    I'd rather have an "easy" access to gear that can degrade and must be re-acquired once ruined than having to grind endlessly after an indestructible item (that will get obsolete at some time anyway).
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Percimes wrote: »
    I'd rather have an "easy" access to gear that can degrade and must be re-acquired once ruined than having to grind endlessly after an indestructible item (that will get obsolete at some time anyway).
    Didn't you just describe your own definition of grind?
    "Grinding: doing a repetitive task because it's required to get to the next step in any endeavor."

    Doing an easy task over and over just to upkeep the item that you need in order to progress.
  • PercimesPercimes Member
    If getting a new sword takes me 5 minutes, not really. Even if I have to get a new one every 3 weeks.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • PercimesPercimes Member
    edited May 17
    I'll add that grind is unavoidable to some degree. There will always be things I don't enjoy 100%, but that are still part what's required for me to get to the next step of whatever I'm doing. In moderation it's not bad, but if I feel forced to do something I don't enjoy too much, I'll just stop and find an alternative.

    Looks at Chewy
    No rewards is worth this!
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Percimes wrote: »
    If getting a new sword takes me 5 minutes, not really. Even if I have to get a new one every 3 weeks.
    That would be some shitty gear system imo. But we have no clue about what Ashes will have, so who knows, maybe that'll be it.
  • PercimesPercimes Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    Percimes wrote: »
    If getting a new sword takes me 5 minutes, not really. Even if I have to get a new one every 3 weeks.
    That would be some shitty gear system imo. But we have no clue about what Ashes will have, so who knows, maybe that'll be it.

    Well, I don't expect entering a player store to be an epic dungeon kind of experience. I look at it more or less as it was in Star Wars Galaxies.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 17
    NiKr wrote: »
    Dygz, I'm talking exactly about the first few weeks when no other nodes have even gotten to lvl 5-6. Let's say I'm playing 18h/d cause I'm hardcore like that. Nodes level up waaay slower than my adventure lvl or any other content that is present within a lvl 2-3 node.
    Yes. And the world has tons of Nodes. Which everyone will be trying to progress.
    I don't know how you think your Adventurer is going to be reaching max level without max level mobs and without max level gear that cannot be unlocked yet because the highest Nodes are only Stage 3.


    NiKr wrote: »
    I've done any and all unique quests that are in the reasonable vicinity from me (and I doubt that going across the world will all of a sudden provide me with more unique quests that would fill up my gametime).
    What you doubt does not necessarily conform with reality.
    Different Node Types in different regions run by different racial populations offer different quests - as dictated by the buildings and services each Node builds. So, you will be working to get buildings and services constructed that will unlock better mobs for you to fight and for better gear to unlock.


    NiKr wrote: »
    I've leveled up all my possible artisan professions to their max, or at least to a point that requires higher lvl content that comes with higher lvl nodes.
    That's not possible.


    NiKr wrote: »
    I've done all the social org stuff, because it too requires higher lvl nodes.
    That's also not possble.


    NiKr wrote: »
    Castle sieges are nowhere close because people are underlvled and are just getting used to the game and node sieges are too expensive, considering that we've only gotten a few lvl 4 (if any), and in the current alleged design there's a 21 day ban on sieging lvl3 nodes too.
    I don't know what that means. You mean players have not yet taken over a Castle from the Ancients, yet, but you don't want to try to Siege a Castle??
    Why would be people be underleveled and what level are you assuming players need to be to remove Ancients from the Castle?


    NiKr wrote: »
    All that I'm left with, content-wise, are caravans. And caravans are just running back and forth between nodes. And imo there's a fair chance that caravans won't even be run often enough to support a 18h/d playtime. But even if there is enough of them, that to me seems like a grind, because it's a repeated same task.
    LMAO
    That is another absurd assumption on your part.


    NiKr wrote: »
    So again, how can a player like that avoid grind? Is it impossible or do you just not consider that kind of repeated task a grind?
    Grind is when you do the same menial task over and over again for minimal rewards.
    Like killing mobs without any quests associated or harvesting without any quests/tasks associated with it.
    So, no, Caravan raids would not be a grind. Could be that acquiring the materials to place on a Caravan is a grind.
    If you think Caravan raids are a grind, you won't be playing Ashes for more than a few weeks anyways.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 17
    NiKr wrote: »
    Percimes wrote: »
    I'd rather have an "easy" access to gear that can degrade and must be re-acquired once ruined than having to grind endlessly after an indestructible item (that will get obsolete at some time anyway).
    Didn't you just describe your own definition of grind?
    "Grinding: doing a repetitive task because it's required to get to the next step in any endeavor."

    Doing an easy task over and over just to upkeep the item that you need in order to progress.

    Oh I guess I have a much different concept of what grinding is than some other people here.

    Grinding to me is 'any form of content in a game that isn't directly tied to the most rewarding or most challenging content that is still required for progression or gaining economic power.'

    'Doing a repetitive task' definitely comes into play but I would not, for example, call 'having to fight this dungeon boss over and over again to get best in slot' equivalent to the type of 'grind' that comes to mind when I think of 'grinding'. Since first of all, a good boss design should make it such that it doesn't feel that repetitive, and second of all it should be 'the point of the game.' Bosses are supposed to be the spectacle show pieces that push you and your team to the limit. To call them 'grinding' just because you have to repeat them to make some form of advancement is not something I can agree with.

    Things like bosses, raids, and sieges are top end content no matter what part of the gear plateau you are at. It can be repetitive if designed poorly, or if you lack incentives to specialize, skill up, and make choices. It still isn't 'the grind' in my opinion though. It's just 'poorly made top end content'.

    Where as I think we can both agree 'fighting a bunch of mobs for mats for gear repair or crafting' is definitively grinding. I think what Percimes was trying to get at here is to them what makes a grind 'good' is that it's 'something one can specialize in and get a unique result as opposed to other possible grinds that could be specialized in to get a different unique result.'

    And that is actually why I think making enemies more dynamic and challenging, and making the players actions effect the mobs responsiveness in some way is key to making a grind good. It stops feeling like filler and feels like an actual activity. Add a mechanic where you get to clear slightly faster by fighting the mob skillfully and now we are 'cooking with gas' as the kids say.

    For gathering otoh, something I think we both can also agree is literally 'grinding, artisan profession edition' PvP works as a way of making encounters unpredictable and it creates a similar effect. Now gathering is an activity you have to gear and prepare for and have reasons to bring friends along. Where as in most other games it is just 'go to point a and press x for a bit. Wait on your character animation to finish and repeat until you need to move on to point b.' If you don't want to fight you are still incentivized to gear and prepare to avoid said fights and minimize losses.

    I think making mobs 'trash' and making pve activities 'inherently lacking in player to player conflict out in the field' are some of the core mistakes in today's mmo design that make people bored with the genre.
    Celebrating the first caravancery anniversary with bursary sorcery.
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