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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Discussion about grinds
deadmansprice
Moderator, Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
After having a discussion with someone on our Discord, it got me thinking about what our community wants grind to be like in Ashes of Creation.
I've got some questions for you all:
- What are your definitions of a good grind?
- What MMO had a good grind system and what made it good?
- How would you want grind to be implemented in the game?
I've got some questions for you all:
- What are your definitions of a good grind?
- What MMO had a good grind system and what made it good?
- How would you want grind to be implemented in the game?
1
Comments
With the game in question being Lineage 2, obviously.
Bad grinds are anything that just relies on pure RNG like certain Korean MMO upgrade systems or loot drops. They rely on that dopamine hit once you get that item but overall it's a shit system.
Honing skills, timings, spacings, coordination, synergies... it is only 'bad' when it becomes easy, but if it becomes easy, then you just go up a difficulty tier in terms of enemies.
If it's 'pull these enemies to this spot and wait for your abilities to AoE them down' then I can stand it for about 10-20 minutes at a time, and after that I start thinking about how it could be better or how to make it more interesting.
It's really bad for my roleplay, too. Without unexpected things happening to affect the rhythm, my RP suffers terribly, and I end up disengaged.
This isn't an answer relative to 'amount of hours it takes to level' because I'll 'grind' like this even in games without any system of leveling, if it's dynamic enough. Just make sure to take breaks (on the scale of days, not the short ones while playing) to bring the feeling back.
Adding random PvP to this generally makes it better, but most games don't design or balance that well enough for me to care.
It's either bad enough to feel like a grind or else you are just doing fun stuff.
Grinding is doing the same tedious, repeitive task over and over and over again for hours, just for a little bit of xp.
Quests exist so that we have stories backing what we're doing and the quest rewards should compensateus well enough that completing each quest feels worthwhile. Rather than just hunting mobs or picking flowers because they exist and doing so gives us a tiny bit of xp.
Grind should not be "implemented".
Technically, it should be possible to gain tiny bits of xp without byhunting and gathering without associated quests. But there should be plenty of quests and tasks that impact the world sfficiently enough that we are focused on changing the world and gaining considerable chunks of xp or sizeable rewards that we won't choose to grind bits of xp without significant rewards.
If it's a good grind I'm only going to remember the good part.
FFXI - required full group coordination when fighting at level targets, required more than just bodily participation even when fighting lower level targets in group. The tactical points system really incentivized paying attention and trying to get your group coordination down even when the fight wasn't particularly hard. Since enemies also had access to tp, it made them more responsive to group pressure and let rudimentary ai lift far above it's weight class. https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Tactical_Points here's the full explanation of what they are if you are really interested.
Well golly deadmansprice aren't you asking the tough question today. Grind is a basic necessity of any mmo or becomes a different genre (monster hunter). Make your mobs mean, responsive, adaptive, and smart. Make your battle system require tactical thought and coordination with a high skill ceiling. I genuinely think TP attacks are the way to most effectively achieve this in basically any game. I'm hoping 'proc' attacks have a similar place in Ashes.
A grind for me has always been slogging through mobs to get that last three bars of xp to the next level. I don’t think that needs to be a planned leveling strategy. I’m hoping there will be enough content and xp gain from the systems around the node to help keep the need for grind to a minimum.
I’m sure there will be players that will walk into the wilderness swinging at everything in their path like a lawnmower to gain levels. WoW was certainly like that to level toons via LFG.
If there is no creative alternative to obtain what one is after? I'm THEN okay with a grind; It should be a chore-alternative means to an end that otherwise didn't pan out with the creative means that only offered a small chance of obtain....ance(?); If the thing that offered a small chance of success was fun but didn't pay out, why not offer alternative, less-attractive means by which to obtain something? Both offer a reward.
It's not a universal alternative; some things should ONLY be obtained by chance and risk - but especially low-level or generic stuff might benefit from different means to an end. Either way, a player can be happy about feeling like they earned something, be it by encountering the rare/occasional bit of luck, or by sheer determination.
For example Lost Arks RNG version of time gating content is crap. By this I mean their honing system.
Quests should not come to an end. Especially, not merely because Adventurer Level is maxed.
I don't know how you get "blocked" by Node progression. There are tons of Nodes on each server.
You can't do all of the things in Ashes. Ashes is not a static game.
It kinda sounds to me like you said, "If I have to eat fish eyes to survive because that's all there is, I will eat fish eyes."
And my response is, "Getting to a point where all there is to eat is fish eyes is not a good thing."
If something is fun, it's not a grind.
So considering that, if a person plays 16h a day instead of 4-6, what will they do once they outlvl node's mobs?
They'd probably go do their artisan and social stuff, right? That'll most likely also be blocked by node progress, so there's a ceiling on that progress too.
So the player will go do random menial quests, right? And if those are semi-randomly generated, how can they not become grindy to a person who's done everything else the game has to offer at that point while still wanting more content? Or do you think Intrepid can somehow make enough unique content that a super hardcore player will never run out of it?
Cause I personally don't see how that's in any way feasible.
I would like the combat class lv up to be a grind, in which players can:
Solo or duo kill mobs with low HP (and mb high dmg) that dont reward too much xp.
Form full or 5man parties to go into areas and buildings were tough, swarming mobs reward the best xp, with very low chance for whole item drops.
Take on open world raidbosses for the best time/xp ratio with 50-50 chances of whole item loots.
Material gathering should also be a grind. But ideally, I see clusters of good raw materials spawning in areas with tough challenging mobs.
So let's say one day your guild wants to helo mages and archers craft bows and staves. The group with a lumberjack should venture in a tough area with good high quality wood materials. The next day they go with the blacksmith the group should venture in a different area for ore.
Such a grind system isnt a grind. It's a live game where you cooporate with other guild members, encounter strangers and form friendships or rivalries.
Not like todays mmos.
I would assume you would start doing more repeatable things like protecting caravans.
In Ashes, you will grind/Farm the same way. You just won't level from mob xp.
One dude spent years on MoP just killing boars at 1xp per kill. His panda toon was trapped because the player wanted to remain neutral lol.
Adventurer is not the only form of progression in the game.
At max Adventurer Level, you continue to work on Node progression, Node defense, Racial progression, Social Org Progression, Events, Government control, etc...
Attaing gear with the stats you want. Exploring the new content that appears as Nodes rise and fall.
Why would quests be menial just because you are at max Adventurer level>
Why would the quests be semi-randomly generated. Quests and tasks are generated based on how player actions impact the world. Onecharacter cannot do everything in the world.
Ashes is not a static world.
The purpose of the Node system is so that players don't run out of content. If the Node system fails to do that, then Ashes is basically just another EQ or ArcheAge or BDO.
Then...you don't understand the game design.
Protecting Caravans starts before max level Adventurer and continues indefinitely as the Castles and Nodes you support rise and fall.
What made them enjoyable was first, finding a solution to the grind that worked for me, and second the achievement at the end of that grind.
Finding a solution includes thing like finding a camp or area, and mastering the tactics to grind there, or acquiring the materials required for the trade skill grind, along with the skill necessary to get to that point.
As a Magician in EverQuest, I was an accomplished soloer, as well as a grouper and raider, but trade skills were definitely more a matter of soloing.
Ashes can improve on the experience grind by discouraging soloing, and Ashes economy should make trade skills a social activity. Farming drops should likewise be subject to the tension of PvP.
So basically, grinding in Ashes should be primarily a social activity, so it should feel a lot more like playing and a lot less like work.
Questing with friends is fun. Farming with friends can be OK.
I've done any and all unique quests that are in the reasonable vicinity from me (and I doubt that going across the world will all of a sudden provide me with more unique quests that would fill up my gametime).
I've leveled up all my possible artisan professions to their max, or at least to a point that requires higher lvl content that comes with higher lvl nodes.
I've done all the social org stuff, because it too requires higher lvl nodes.
Castle sieges are nowhere close because people are underlvled and are just getting used to the game and node sieges are too expensive, considering that we've only gotten a few lvl 4 (if any), and in the current alleged design there's a 21 day ban on sieging lvl3 nodes too.
All that I'm left with, content-wise, are caravans. And caravans are just running back and forth between nodes. And imo there's a fair chance that caravans won't even be run often enough to support a 18h/d playtime. But even if there is enough of them, that to me seems like a grind, because it's a repeated same task.
So again, how can a player like that avoid grind? Is it impossible or do you just not consider that kind of repeated task a grind?
Grinding: doing a repetitive task because it's required to get to the next step in any endeavour.
Farming: doing a repetitive task because I want to.
Some have expressed the joy of getting a reward out of their grind, like a random drop. I don't. For me it has always felt as a relief of no longer having to do that stupid/boring thing. The "reward", when I got it, felt more like a reminder of my misery. I had moved on before I could move on. This is, in part, why I just can't care about loot and gear: too much hassle, too much time wasted.
How many Trolls do you need to kill in Strangletorn Vale to get 15 ears? Between 45 to 48.
How many time did we have to repeat that dungeon in WAR for our tank to get all his pieces of gear? Twice a week for a little over a month. The rest of us got all our stuff in 2 weeks but his refused to drop. Group of 6, not a raid.
I'd rather have an "easy" access to gear that can degrade and must be re-acquired once ruined than having to grind endlessly after an indestructible item (that will get obsolete at some time anyway).
"Grinding: doing a repetitive task because it's required to get to the next step in any endeavor."
Doing an easy task over and over just to upkeep the item that you need in order to progress.
Looks at Chewy
No rewards is worth this!
Well, I don't expect entering a player store to be an epic dungeon kind of experience. I look at it more or less as it was in Star Wars Galaxies.
I don't know how you think your Adventurer is going to be reaching max level without max level mobs and without max level gear that cannot be unlocked yet because the highest Nodes are only Stage 3.
What you doubt does not necessarily conform with reality.
Different Node Types in different regions run by different racial populations offer different quests - as dictated by the buildings and services each Node builds. So, you will be working to get buildings and services constructed that will unlock better mobs for you to fight and for better gear to unlock.
That's not possible.
That's also not possble.
I don't know what that means. You mean players have not yet taken over a Castle from the Ancients, yet, but you don't want to try to Siege a Castle??
Why would be people be underleveled and what level are you assuming players need to be to remove Ancients from the Castle?
LMAO
That is another absurd assumption on your part.
Grind is when you do the same menial task over and over again for minimal rewards.
Like killing mobs without any quests associated or harvesting without any quests/tasks associated with it.
So, no, Caravan raids would not be a grind. Could be that acquiring the materials to place on a Caravan is a grind.
If you think Caravan raids are a grind, you won't be playing Ashes for more than a few weeks anyways.
Oh I guess I have a much different concept of what grinding is than some other people here.
Grinding to me is 'any form of content in a game that isn't directly tied to the most rewarding or most challenging content that is still required for progression or gaining economic power.'
'Doing a repetitive task' definitely comes into play but I would not, for example, call 'having to fight this dungeon boss over and over again to get best in slot' equivalent to the type of 'grind' that comes to mind when I think of 'grinding'. Since first of all, a good boss design should make it such that it doesn't feel that repetitive, and second of all it should be 'the point of the game.' Bosses are supposed to be the spectacle show pieces that push you and your team to the limit. To call them 'grinding' just because you have to repeat them to make some form of advancement is not something I can agree with.
Things like bosses, raids, and sieges are top end content no matter what part of the gear plateau you are at. It can be repetitive if designed poorly, or if you lack incentives to specialize, skill up, and make choices. It still isn't 'the grind' in my opinion though. It's just 'poorly made top end content'.
Where as I think we can both agree 'fighting a bunch of mobs for mats for gear repair or crafting' is definitively grinding. I think what Percimes was trying to get at here is to them what makes a grind 'good' is that it's 'something one can specialize in and get a unique result as opposed to other possible grinds that could be specialized in to get a different unique result.'
And that is actually why I think making enemies more dynamic and challenging, and making the players actions effect the mobs responsiveness in some way is key to making a grind good. It stops feeling like filler and feels like an actual activity. Add a mechanic where you get to clear slightly faster by fighting the mob skillfully and now we are 'cooking with gas' as the kids say.
For gathering otoh, something I think we both can also agree is literally 'grinding, artisan profession edition' PvP works as a way of making encounters unpredictable and it creates a similar effect. Now gathering is an activity you have to gear and prepare for and have reasons to bring friends along. Where as in most other games it is just 'go to point a and press x for a bit. Wait on your character animation to finish and repeat until you need to move on to point b.' If you don't want to fight you are still incentivized to gear and prepare to avoid said fights and minimize losses.
I think making mobs 'trash' and making pve activities 'inherently lacking in player to player conflict out in the field' are some of the core mistakes in today's mmo design that make people bored with the genre.