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Discussion about grinds

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Comments

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Noaani wrote: »
    To me, this isn't a grind at all, it is a rough outline for an end game concept.

    The very notion of a grind is performing a specific task in order to achieve a specific outcome.

    I mean, it's still a specific task even witrh all the RNG(killling monsters) in order to achieve a specific outcome(acquing certain drops and/or exp). This 'very notion' is malleable, and still works under RNG aspects.
    Noaani wrote: »
    Some aspects of the above are fine for a grind, but if you are after a specific item (say, bear hide), you absolutely do not want to be grinding in an area where bears are only one of many possible spawns, nor do you want multiple potential drops from the bears you are grinding on.

    On the other hand, if you are just playing the game, then having mobs randomized to a degree, and drops randomized to a degree are both perfectly fine. However, that is not a grind.

    How about different type of bears? :D
    I would assume a basic material like bear hide would probably be the most common drop on their loot table.

    If you're grinding for experience, then sure, RNG is all good. However, I have yet to play a game that has required more experience than is able to be obtained by running all of the level appropriate content. I would personally consider such an oversight to be a grave error on the part of the developers.

    As to different types of bears - there isn't all that much variation you can add to them in terms of how they fight, while still being recognizable as bears (this is why I picked bears, rather than a more intelligent enemy).

    While bear hide may well be the highest dropping item, there may well still be the chance of dropping a bear claw, or bear tooth, or even bear meat. Chances are, if I am after bear hide, other people would also be after bear hide. Said people would also be getting those other drops, which they likely do not want - just as I do not want them. As such, those items are probably dirt cheap on the market, making them not even worth picking up.

    It is virtually impossible to have multiple drops on a mob that all retain their actual value. As soon as players want a higher ratio of one drop than what the loot table allows for, the other drops all instantly become worthless.

    When you are grinding for a specific item (as opposed to just playing the game with no specific goal), you really do want the least amount of RNG as possible. The more focused your goal (which is my personal definition of grinding), the less RNG you want. The less focused the goal, the more you want.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    My preferred RNG Method is Random Resource Cache, Random Armament Cache and Random Treasure Chests often strewn around specific Points of Interest.

    Accessible to all and with vast potential. Another source over which to fight or cooperate. The concept is reinforced due to the flagging system.

    Anyway, just food for thought right now.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Noaani wrote: »
    While bear hide may well be the highest dropping item, there may well still be the chance of dropping a bear claw, or bear tooth, or even bear meat. Chances are, if I am after bear hide, other people would also be after bear hide. Said people would also be getting those other drops, which they likely do not want - just as I do not want them. As such, those items are probably dirt cheap on the market, making them not even worth picking up.

    It is virtually impossible to have multiple drops on a mob that all retain their actual value. As soon as players want a higher ratio of one drop than what the loot table allows for, the other drops all instantly become worthless.
    That just sounds like a bad crafting system then. Especially in the context of what Ashes is planning for their crafting. Make all those resources used somewhere on the crafting ladder so no material becomes useless or unwanted. This would also keep people fighting over mobs because they'll always stay important.

    Yes, some prices will fluctuate, but that's the case with anything in a free market.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    P.s. because gold can't be dropped by players, please do not add gold amounts to treasure chests etc unless gold ingots etc is required for crafting.

    Ranger would be the wealthiest class if they can find hidden caches without risk.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    While bear hide may well be the highest dropping item, there may well still be the chance of dropping a bear claw, or bear tooth, or even bear meat. Chances are, if I am after bear hide, other people would also be after bear hide. Said people would also be getting those other drops, which they likely do not want - just as I do not want them. As such, those items are probably dirt cheap on the market, making them not even worth picking up.

    It is virtually impossible to have multiple drops on a mob that all retain their actual value. As soon as players want a higher ratio of one drop than what the loot table allows for, the other drops all instantly become worthless.
    That just sounds like a bad crafting system then. Especially in the context of what Ashes is planning for their crafting. Make all those resources used somewhere on the crafting ladder so no material becomes useless or unwanted. This would also keep people fighting over mobs because they'll always stay important.

    Yes, some prices will fluctuate, but that's the case with anything in a free market.

    A bad crafting system? We have a star wars galaxies crafting system. If I was a dairy farmer I don't want rng whether the cow gives milk or not. I might also have different cow breeds to affect the milk formulation but at the end of the day it's all still milk...
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Neurath wrote: »
    A bad crafting system? We have a star wars galaxies crafting system. If I was a dairy farmer I don't want rng whether the cow gives milk or not. I might also have different cow breeds to affect the milk formulation but at the end of the day it's all still milk...
    I meant that example in particular. If when you killed a cow you got milk, meat, skin, horns, hooves - I'd expect all those items to get used somewhere in the crafting system and be fairly valuable. With maybe one of those being used in some important recipe so its price is higher than others, but you don't feel bad for not dropping that exact item because everything else has a good price too.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Yeah, I don't mean remove the loot table. I simply meant, give a crafter options. For example, skinning should always give a skin but skill should give the chance for higher tier reward (BDO). in terms of legendary drops, in most cases they would be reagents rather than base materials due to rarity and supply/demand.

    I'm not sure if you've heard of The Devilsaur Mafia in WoW. Now, they locked down a resource region from a whole server. Perfectly fine if it's a raid zone or a contested zone. However, the resource in question only came from a single source and thus a monopoly was created.

    Star wars galaxies prevents monopolies because you can get materials from other sources and horizontal enchant to get the end result.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Neurath wrote: »
    Star wars galaxies prevents monopolies because you can get materials from other sources and horizontal enchant to get the end result.
    It's a double-edged sword for me. On one hand I want there to be limited sources for things so that players have to fight each other over it, on the other hand I understand how monopolies can kill the game's economy and lead to a ton of people leaving. Have definitely seen a few monopolies in L2 back when you had some resources farmable only in one locations (or at least meaningful farm in only one) and big guilds would lock it down and control said resource.

    And I don't really know how you'd balance those things out.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I don't want to prevent monopolies at all. You are confused between unique dropped legendaries and crafted legendaries.

    A master crafter can make a legendary form of any item. The master crafter needs a vast supply of resources to level to the skill of legendary status.

    Nodes are like Greek City States. One Node might not have iron. However, a trade alliance could see iron flow from elsewhere . It is not my intention to protect anything. I am a combat expert and people can fight for caravans, legendarys, territorial control, casters etc. Whilst incurring decay, destruction and experience loss. Not to mention portional resource loss.

    At the end of the day, I feel I can not take on all economic duties and combat duties if requested because I have no idea on the speed at which my requests can even be implemented. Its one thing to be a designer, its another thing entirely to be a dictator.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Neurath wrote: »
    I don't want to prevent monopolies at all. You are confused between unique dropped legendaries and crafted legendaries.

    A master crafter can make a legendary form of any item. The master crafter needs a vast supply of resources to level to the skill of legendary status.
    Yeah, and those supplies can be controlled by a guild. So I'm not confusing things. But I've already seen some people complain about the potential of big guilds taking over some parts of the map/nodes/resources and setting their own super high prices on those things. That is if they even decide to sell them.

    Now I'm completely fine with that cause I'm used to fighting against stronger and bigger foes, but I can already see people leaving the game because they can't get some piece of gear because some huge guild is controlling all the ways of acquiring that gear.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 20
    I don't believe a piece of gear will be so crucial that people will quit because they can't get it.
    Especially because Ashes is a game where no person can get everything or do everything.
    It's unlikely to be a guild that's preventing that acquisition - it's much more likely to be the Node type you prefer does not have a Metro or your race does not control a Metro.
  • edited May 20
    Noaani wrote: »
    If you're grinding for experience, then sure, RNG is all good. However, I have yet to play a game that has required more experience than is able to be obtained by running all of the level appropriate content. I would personally consider such an oversight to be a grave error on the part of the developers.

    Ashes is going for a fairly harder/longer leveling process than most recent MMORPGS, i don't think possible RNG grinding for exp could be an oversight let alone a "grave error".
    Noaani wrote: »
    As to different types of bears - there isn't all that much variation you can add to them in terms of how they fight, while still being recognizable as bears (this is why I picked bears, rather than a more intelligent enemy).

    Yeah, bears probably aren't the best type of monsters to apply RNG variation in types.
    The only reasonable bear fighting styles i can think from the top of my head are, more agressive bears with higher damage, a more tanky bear, a more agile bear with higher speed/evasion/accuracy/crit chance and maybe a more debuff oriented bear with bleed, slows and stun.
    Noaani wrote: »
    While bear hide may well be the highest dropping item, there may well still be the chance of dropping a bear claw, or bear tooth, or even bear meat. Chances are, if I am after bear hide, other people would also be after bear hide. Said people would also be getting those other drops, which they likely do not want - just as I do not want them. As such, those items are probably dirt cheap on the market, making them not even worth picking up.

    It is virtually impossible to have multiple drops on a mob that all retain their actual value. As soon as players want a higher ratio of one drop than what the loot table allows for, the other drops all instantly become worthless.

    When you are grinding for a specific item (as opposed to just playing the game with no specific goal), you really do want the least amount of RNG as possible. The more focused your goal (which is my personal definition of grinding), the less RNG you want. The less focused the goal, the more you want.

    From my experience with Lineage 2 big RNG loot tables there was never a "drop you didn't want" or that "didn't retained their actual value" even with basic materials, that were typically the most common drops in the loot tables due to Lineage 2's resource scarcity, this permanently maintained the game economy healthy and thriving..

    If any resource in Ashes ever makes you feel that you don't want it and that it retains no actual value, i would consider it a system oversight and possible a design flaw.

    The more consistent the drop of a material is, the more offer of that material is avaliable, unless demand is constant and high enough in comparison to the drop rate, it's price will go downhill to the dirty cheap realm.
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack

    From my experience with Lineage 2 big RNG loot tables there was never a "drop you didn't want" or that "didn't retained their actual value" even with basic materials, that were typically the most common drops in the loot tables due to Lineage 2's resource scarcity, this permanently maintained the game economy healthy and thriving..

    If any resource in Ashes ever makes you feel that you don't want it and that it retains no actual value, i would consider it a system oversight and possible a design flaw.

    The more consistent the drop of a material is, the more offer of that material is avaliable, unless demand is constant and high enough in comparison to the drop rate, it's price will go downhill to the dirty cheap realm.
    Yeah, but that is because L2 was a shit game, objectively speaking.

    I have literally never heard anyone say L2 had a "theiving" economy. I have heard people say they spend far more for an item than they should, just so they can avoid PvE, but not that the economy was ever thriving.

    Barely functioning is the description of L2's economy I get from people I know who were playing it from 2003to 2006.

    The reason every drop had a market was simply because there were so few drops, and people wanted to avoid PvE when they could. My suggestion is we dont label that as "good" in any form, so as to not mislead developers in to making a game with that poor of an economy or PvE content ever again.

    Literally the only good thing about L2 was the PvP. Anyone that ever says anything else was good about the game has a series case of rose tinted glasses.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Noaani wrote: »
    Literally the only good thing about L2 was the PvP. Anyone that ever says anything else was good about the game has a series case of rose tinted glasses.
    Its pvp was good exactly because pve was super basic though. Yes there were sieges, but those are every other week. But daily pvp only worked because you could pvp around mobs w/o being scared shitless that you'd both die.

    I can already see people complaining a ton if Ashes has challenging pve in the open world, just because they keep getting attacked by other people and die because of it.

    Dunno about the very early days, but from what I've heard L2 was ridden with bots so of course the economy would be in utter shambles.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited May 21
    Noaani wrote: »

    From my experience with Lineage 2 big RNG loot tables there was never a "drop you didn't want" or that "didn't retained their actual value" even with basic materials, that were typically the most common drops in the loot tables due to Lineage 2's resource scarcity, this permanently maintained the game economy healthy and thriving..

    If any resource in Ashes ever makes you feel that you don't want it and that it retains no actual value, i would consider it a system oversight and possible a design flaw.

    The more consistent the drop of a material is, the more offer of that material is avaliable, unless demand is constant and high enough in comparison to the drop rate, it's price will go downhill to the dirty cheap realm.
    Yeah, but that is because L2 was a shit game, objectively speaking.

    I have literally never heard anyone say L2 had a "theiving" economy. I have heard people say they spend far more for an item than they should, just so they can avoid PvE, but not that the economy was ever thriving.

    Barely functioning is the description of L2's economy I get from people I know who were playing it from 2003to 2006.

    The reason every drop had a market was simply because there were so few drops, and people wanted to avoid PvE when they could. My suggestion is we dont label that as "good" in any form, so as to not mislead developers in to making a game with that poor of an economy or PvE content ever again.

    Literally the only good thing about L2 was the PvP. Anyone that ever says anything else was good about the game has a series case of rose tinted glasses.

    Noanni you keep calling a L2 a shitty game, just like unpopular kids at school would call a party that they didnt get invided to "a shitty party". Dont talk to us about rose glasses and grow up.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Noanni you keep calling a L2 a shitty game, just like unpopular kids at school would call a party that didnt got invided to "a shitty party". Dont talk to us about rose glasses and grow up.
    I mean, it was definitely not the biggest and best thing since sliced bread like WoW was, but that's mainly due to the reasons of WoW being way more casual-friendly and NCsoft being utter shites at promoting/developing/admining their game in the west. And then it all just snowballed down a mountain.
  • edited May 21
    Noaani wrote: »
    Yeah, but that is because L2 was a shit game, objectively speaking.

    I would say that was quite a interesting thing to say from some one who never played it. :D
    Noaani wrote: »
    I have literally never heard anyone say L2 had a "theiving" economy. I have heard people say they spend far more for an item than they should, just so they can avoid PvE, but not that the economy was ever thriving.

    Barely functioning is the description of L2's economy I get from people I know who were playing it from 2003to 2006.

    Really don't know whom you spoke to but, from release to around late 2006 the economy was the best, and started getting destroyed around late 2006 and early 2007 when the first bot programs stated coming out and overflooding the market with basic material and over-inflating the game main currency and destroying the game economy.
    Noaani wrote: »
    The reason every drop had a market was simply because there were so few drops, and people wanted to avoid PvE when they could. My suggestion is we dont label that as "good" in any form, so as to not mislead developers in to making a game with that poor of an economy or PvE content ever again.

    Literally the only good thing about L2 was the PvP. Anyone that ever says anything else was good about the game has a series case of rose tinted glasses.

    People didn't want to avoid L2 PvE because of the scarcity of drops, but because Lineage 2 PvE truly was bad, very simplistic and not very challenging(other than a few areas and bosses).

    My suggestion is, we don't make big assumptions from hearsay of systems we aren't truly familiarized with.

    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    In a big fight you want strong pve thrown in. In other mmos a mixed fight was the only way a tank could do more than pve.

    At the end of the day, if u don't want to die to npcs in a pvp fight, don't gank, don't murder and don't steal. Just do duels.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Noaani wrote: »

    From my experience with Lineage 2 big RNG loot tables there was never a "drop you didn't want" or that "didn't retained their actual value" even with basic materials, that were typically the most common drops in the loot tables due to Lineage 2's resource scarcity, this permanently maintained the game economy healthy and thriving..

    If any resource in Ashes ever makes you feel that you don't want it and that it retains no actual value, i would consider it a system oversight and possible a design flaw.

    The more consistent the drop of a material is, the more offer of that material is avaliable, unless demand is constant and high enough in comparison to the drop rate, it's price will go downhill to the dirty cheap realm.
    Yeah, but that is because L2 was a shit game, objectively speaking.

    I have literally never heard anyone say L2 had a "theiving" economy. I have heard people say they spend far more for an item than they should, just so they can avoid PvE, but not that the economy was ever thriving.

    Barely functioning is the description of L2's economy I get from people I know who were playing it from 2003to 2006.

    The reason every drop had a market was simply because there were so few drops, and people wanted to avoid PvE when they could. My suggestion is we dont label that as "good" in any form, so as to not mislead developers in to making a game with that poor of an economy or PvE content ever again.

    Literally the only good thing about L2 was the PvP. Anyone that ever says anything else was good about the game has a series case of rose tinted glasses.

    Noanni you keep calling a L2 a shitty game, just like unpopular kids at school would call a party that they didnt get invided to "a shitty party". Dont talk to us about rose glasses and grow up.

    If L2 was half the game you like to claim it was, you would be playing it on a private server and wouldn't be interested in Ashes.

    The fact that Ashes is taking some PvP aspects from L2 is great. The fact that it is not looking at L2 for anything to do with the economy, crafting, PvE, classes, races, lore, world design, or basically anything else - is even better.

    The fact that almost all of the senior developers at Intrepid (including the environment lead, character art lead, and previous lead designer, among others) are all from EQ2 is even better still.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Noaani wrote: »
    Yeah, but that is because L2 was a shit game, objectively speaking.

    I would say that was quite a interesting thing to say from some one who never played it. :D
    Noaani wrote: »
    I have literally never heard anyone say L2 had a "theiving" economy. I have heard people say they spend far more for an item than they should, just so they can avoid PvE, but not that the economy was ever thriving.

    Barely functioning is the description of L2's economy I get from people I know who were playing it from 2003to 2006.

    Really don't know whom you spoke to but, from release to around late 2006 the economy was the best, and started getting destroyed around late 2006 and early 2007 when the first bot programs stated coming out and overflooding the market with basic material and over-inflating the game main currency and destroying the game economy.
    Noaani wrote: »
    The reason every drop had a market was simply because there were so few drops, and people wanted to avoid PvE when they could. My suggestion is we dont label that as "good" in any form, so as to not mislead developers in to making a game with that poor of an economy or PvE content ever again.

    Literally the only good thing about L2 was the PvP. Anyone that ever says anything else was good about the game has a series case of rose tinted glasses.

    People didn't want to avoid L2 PvE because of the scarcity of drops, but because Lineage 2 PvE truly was bad, very simplistic and not very challenging(other than a few areas and bosses).

    My suggestion is, we don't make big assumptions from hearsay of systems we aren't truly familiarized with.

    So, the people that I know best that played L2. They played from launch until 2006 when they moved to EQ2 (which was 2 years old at that point). I played top end with them for the next 8 years, so I am going to take thwirnword over yours, or anyone else's here (no offense to anyone).

    Their comments were that the economy functioned in that you could make money by selling things, and you could sometimes find the things you wanted to buy for crafting. To them, at the time, it seemed fine - but it was the first MMO they had played.

    Then they came to EQ2, and they had a literal jaw drop moment at the difference in terms of game economy. They didnt realize how dysfunctional the L2 economy had always been until they saw a properly functioning economy in a contemporary game.

    The same can be said of their PvE experience, race choice, class design and combat complexity - but that is all stories for a different thread.

    I will add that they laughed at EQ2's attempt at PvP, but then so did I.

    Now, since I know these people well, I know when and where they are likely to exaggerate things or downplay things, and most importantly I know they are not simple fanboys for any one game (including EQ2), I am going to take what they have to say about the game back then more seriously than what anyone else has to say about that game back then.

    When it comes to some George based posters on these forums, I am going to literally always assume everything they say about L2 is exaggerated to make L2 seem better than it was, because that is this posters history (they tried to tell me L2 had good PvE).

    For anyone else, if they are saying something about L2 that doesnt mesh well with what I have been told from a source I trust completely, I am going to assume either they are along the same lines as George, they had a vastly different experience playing the game, they had no contemporary MMO experience to compare L2 to,or they are just outright lying.

    In your specific case, my first assumption is that you had no contemporary MMO experience, but it may well be that you weren't attempting to play the fame at the top end like my trusted friends were, and so have a vastly difference from that game.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Noaani wrote: »
    The fact that Ashes is taking some PvP aspects from L2 is great. The fact that it is not looking at L2 for anything to do with the economy, crafting, PvE, classes, races, lore, world design, or basically anything else - is even better.
    Crafting window from alpha1 and the so far explained crafting system is really similar to L2's, except for the dials.

    Classes function differently, but the separation of classes is quite close to L2's. I thought about making a video showing some potential similarities, or at least the ones I saw.

    Humans/elves/orcs/dwarves - all in L2. Tulnar is the obvious outlier, with Py'Rai coming close second, but tulnar were a kickstarter stretch goal, right? So they would've probably came later in the game's life and not be the base race if Intrepid didn't reach that goal.

    Copying lore/world design would be a big oof that would show that they have no idea how to make the game their own. Though open world dungeons and bosses in some rooms and at the very end in a semi-instance (like the volcano dragon from alpha1) is straight out of L2's design book. Now I'm sure that L2 wasn't the first game to use that design, but saying that L2 only inspired pvp is a bit weird imo.
    Noaani wrote: »
    Then they came to EQ2, and they had a literal jaw drop moment at the difference in terms of game economy. They didnt realize how dysfunctional the L2 economy had always been until they saw a properly functioning economy in a contemporary game.
    Iirc L2's design took a lot of inspiration from EQ, but instead of improving on it as how, I imagine, EQ2 did NCsoft probably just copied it, as a ton of other mmos did with WoW's design later on.

    Now I could be completely off base with that assumption, but we'd have to have someone here who has played both EQ1 and L2 to draw some parallels.

    And as we've seen with WoW and its clones' example, anyone, who tries to copy another game's success and who's not the OG team that made that original game, is destined to fail. Once WoW got newer devs and control from above - it became shit, so you can even fuck up the original game by just changing the team. L2's lead designer left and the game went to shit after that (in the opinion of all the people who still play on the private servers), so even the small good parts that it had went out the window.

    Also, I'm pretty sure that L2 took their pvp system from L1 (and added a few things I think), so this is just another parallel that taking mechanics from the previous installation in the series and making them better is the way to. L1 had huge success (still does) with its pvp system being one of the great things about it. L2 took that and made it its own and it was the best part about it. EQ1 had its own cool stuff and I'm sure that EQ2 took those things and made them better and changed for the better.

    So your friends pretty much went from a copy with one redeeming point to the "original" with way more improvements to the OG formula. I'd assume people whose first game was some failed WoW clone would have a similar experience if they went to play WoW and saw all the systems that might've been in their first mmo now done much better. Though I dunno if current WoW would really have that effect, but I think you know what I mean.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    L2 was a more advanced version of Neverwinter and Neverwinter was a more advanced version of DnD. Hence why we all love the versions even though we also played EQ.

    Anyway, I agree that EQ was a better all round game for an MMO.
  • edited May 21
    Noaani wrote: »
    So, the people that I know best that played L2. They played from launch until 2006 when they moved to EQ2 (which was 2 years old at that point). I played top end with them for the next 8 years, so I am going to take thwirnword over yours, or anyone else's here (no offense to anyone).

    Their comments were that the economy functioned in that you could make money by selling things, and you could sometimes find the things you wanted to buy for crafting. To them, at the time, it seemed fine - but it was the first MMO they had played.

    Then they came to EQ2, and they had a literal jaw drop moment at the difference in terms of game economy. They didnt realize how dysfunctional the L2 economy had always been until they saw a properly functioning economy in a contemporary game.

    The same can be said of their PvE experience, race choice, class design and combat complexity - but that is all stories for a different thread.

    I will add that they laughed at EQ2's attempt at PvP, but then so did I.

    Now, since I know these people well, I know when and where they are likely to exaggerate things or downplay things, and most importantly I know they are not simple fanboys for any one game (including EQ2), I am going to take what they have to say about the game back then more seriously than what anyone else has to say about that game back then.

    When it comes to some George based posters on these forums, I am going to literally always assume everything they say about L2 is exaggerated to make L2 seem better than it was, because that is this posters history (they tried to tell me L2 had good PvE).

    For anyone else, if they are saying something about L2 that doesnt mesh well with what I have been told from a source I trust completely, I am going to assume either they are along the same lines as George, they had a vastly different experience playing the game, they had no contemporary MMO experience to compare L2 to,or they are just outright lying.

    In your specific case, my first assumption is that you had no contemporary MMO experience, but it may well be that you weren't attempting to play the fame at the top end like my trusted friends were, and so have a vastly difference from that game.

    You trusting your faithful friends more than me James the AoC forum guy is more than reasonable,
    it seems that even tho we started playing from launch(for a bit of context i played a bit earlier because had the opportunity of playing the KR launch which was a few months earlier and left the official servers around early 2012 not long after the release of Awakening version) we might have had extremely different experiences with the same game and i don't doubt them, because it was well known that there was a dramatic difference in the economy of the servers, therfore i would assume we most likely played different servers
    (If you know the name of the official server they played, that can help alot with the context).

    As for contemporary games at the time, sadly i didn't tried EQ2 so i can't make big assumptions about it, but convinced by a friend(that still plays it up till this day) i tried out WoW for about 1-2 months during its launch, was amazed by its PvE and its quests not so much so by its economy but wasn't captivated by the game like with Lineage 2, considering EQ2 was a more PvE focused game i would assume my reaction would've been probably the same to EQ2.

    Not sure if your friends definition of "attempting to play the fame at the top end" would match mine, but i was near the top in one of the best clans, played in the majority of the biggest and most competitive sieges in the server and maintained Hero status of my Class for quite some months.
    Noaani wrote: »
    The fact that it is not looking at L2 for anything to do with the economy, crafting, PvE, classes, races, lore, world design, or basically anything else - is even better.

    Thats quite the assumption, a assumption i would expect a Steven's quote on...
    As we currently know Lineage 2 and Archeage are sources of Steven's inspirations for Ashes period, not limited expecificaly by pvp design even tho being the most obvious example with the corruption system.
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    From my experience with Lineage 2 big RNG loot tables there was never a "drop you didn't want" or that "didn't retained their actual value" even with basic materials, that were typically the most common drops in the loot tables due to Lineage 2's resource scarcity, this permanently maintained the game economy healthy and thriving..

    If any resource in Ashes ever makes you feel that you don't want it and that it retains no actual value, i would consider it a system oversight and possible a design flaw.

    The more consistent the drop of a material is, the more offer of that material is avaliable, unless demand is constant and high enough in comparison to the drop rate, it's price will go downhill to the dirty cheap realm.
    Yeah, but that is because L2 was a shit game, objectively speaking.

    I have literally never heard anyone say L2 had a "theiving" economy. I have heard people say they spend far more for an item than they should, just so they can avoid PvE, but not that the economy was ever thriving.

    Barely functioning is the description of L2's economy I get from people I know who were playing it from 2003to 2006.

    The reason every drop had a market was simply because there were so few drops, and people wanted to avoid PvE when they could. My suggestion is we dont label that as "good" in any form, so as to not mislead developers in to making a game with that poor of an economy or PvE content ever again.

    Literally the only good thing about L2 was the PvP. Anyone that ever says anything else was good about the game has a series case of rose tinted glasses.

    Noanni you keep calling a L2 a shitty game, just like unpopular kids at school would call a party that they didnt get invided to "a shitty party". Dont talk to us about rose glasses and grow up.

    If L2 was half the game you like to claim it was, you would be playing it on a private server and wouldn't be interested in Ashes.

    The fact that Ashes is taking some PvP aspects from L2 is great. The fact that it is not looking at L2 for anything to do with the economy, crafting, PvE, classes, races, lore, world design, or basically anything else - is even better.

    The fact that almost all of the senior developers at Intrepid (including the environment lead, character art lead, and previous lead designer, among others) are all from EQ2 is even better still.

    I was playing L2 in 2020. I often do from time to time. You dont know what you are talking about. It's economy was the best, it's crafting player to player services and stalls were mentioned numerous times and the material of L2 were "tasty" every time you interacted with them, from the moment you saw them on your feet and pick them up, to looking at them in your inventory and selling them, to making them into refind material and items.

    You sound ridiculous every time you pretend to have an understanding of it even tho you admitted to never playing it. Why do you pretend? Why do you have to have an opinion on something you know shit about?
    Do you see me talk crap about wow and all it's instanced content, repetitive raiding farm, ez quest leveling up and what not? No, I dont, because I dont know the game.
    Just sit this one out. Sit quietly on the bench.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited May 21
    Only people not well in their mind would play their fav game "on some private server", "not being interested in ashes" or any other game. I have played many mmos and I judged them all. L2 being hands down the best by far from the ones I know.

    "ONLy My GAme iZ guD".
    God, what kinda logic is this and how low of an IQ would you have to be to bring this as an argument of L2 being shit.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited May 21
    NiKr wrote: »
    Crafting window from alpha1 and the so far explained crafting system is really similar to L2's, except for the dials.
    Literally every time Steven talks about crafting in Ashes, he talks about SWG.

    Sure, the alpha may have had some resemblance to L2, but only because it was literally the easiest, most basic thing to throw together.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited May 21

    You trusting your faithful friends more than me James the AoC forum guy is more than reasonable,
    it seems that even tho we started playing from launch(for a bit of context i played a bit earlier because had the opportunity of playing the KR launch which was a few months earlier and left the official servers around early 2012 not long after the release of Awakening version) we might have had extremely different experiences with the same game and i don't doubt them, because it was well known that there was a dramatic difference in the economy of the servers, therfore i would assume we most likely played different servers
    (If you know the name of the official server they played, that can help alot with the context).

    My friends absolutely did only have experience of one server in L2. However, in order for a game to have what I would describe as a good economy, it would need to function well on all servers, even if the economy of those servers are somewhat different.

    I do recall them talking about Hero status, but as I don't know enough about L2 to have a solid idea of what that entails, I didnt pay much attention to it (it means about as much to me as me saying I killed AoFire in EQ2 in 2009 would mean to you - I cant explain what that means to anyone that didn't play the game at that time). What I can say is that - like me - they only play games at the top end.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited May 21
    Why do you have to have an opinion on something you know shit about?
    In the past, you have tried to tell me that L2 had some of the best PvE content of any MMO at the time. This immediately puts your opinions on that game in to the "suspicious" category.

    I can listen to you - some random guy on the internet - or I can listen to people I have known well for over a decade.

    I pick the people that I know well, who have opinions I value.

    Now, I have said many, many times that L2 had good PvP. I can say this because people I know and trust that played it for years have told me so.

    If you want to focus on me saying that the rest of the game was sub-par compared to it's contemporaries, rather than me saying what was good about the game, that does nothing more than speak volumes as to you and your character.

    The above is even more true when - rather than attempting to convince me otherwise - you simply resort to attacks with randomized capitalization of points that you assume I am making, yet are not points that I am making.

    Ok, so, if you think L2 had a good economy, tell me why it was better than EVE's. If you think it has good races, tell me why it is better than EQ2's. Both of those games are contemporary with L2. If you want to say L2 is not shit, then say it is not shit and talk about why.

    The problem is, you can't. You can't because you can't understand the feelings or experiences others have had. You may know people that played WoW back in 2004 (more likely 2005 - EQ2 had a higher population than WoW at the end of 2004). The problem is, you can't relate to anything they may tell you about the game.
  • SantanicoSantanico Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    For me it a good grind is always fun, but it shouldn't end with just the level grind games like DAoC would take years and I loved that if you invested the time in your char you truly felt rewarded for it.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    edited May 21
    Noaani wrote: »
    Literally every time Steven talks about crafting in Ashes, he talks about SWG.
    14th reference on this page says that it was Jeff who pushed for SWG's crafting mechanics for Ashes.

    Outside of that, Ashes will have personal shops that will most likely be used to advertise crafting/processing - L2 had people sitting in towns, with small "billboards" over their heads, selling their crafting services directly.

    Ashes will use all tiers of materials in the crafting process of all tiers of items (or at least close to that). L2 had this exact design.

    Ashes will use recipes to craft items. They'll be rare and can be learned and traded. L2 had this exact design.

    Ashes will have BiS be craftable, with mats for those items dropping from bosses together with full gear (iirc). L2 had this exact design.

    All of those things are at the core of Ashes crafting system. And on top of that we have Jeff's great contributions of SWG's systems of dials and material-quality-based stats (if I understood it correctly).

    So as I said in my previous comment, Ashes takes some great concepts from their "previous games" (those being L2 and AA) and then adds some good shit on top of it. The only variable between my example of EQ2 doing this is that Ashes is getting developed by a completely different team. So A LOT will depend on how well they can realize their design goals and inspirations.
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