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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
Some where the game is as intended with normal unchanging RNG. Call these something like Elite servers.
Some servers with optional RNG where players can pick a piece of loot and while the RNG starts as normal, each rerun of the place where the loot drops could have an increasing chance until dropped then it resets and they can pick again. Standard servers.
and finally some servers with no RNG where players can pick one piece of loot and rerun content only to get the other loot is required. Casual servers.
They might need some way to define what server it's from and probably not be shared up (but definitely shared down)
Caters to people playing with the time they have. too many gamers now have obligations outside of games to grind things, but knowing we can see/get the cool stuff even if we can't 'show off' the luck
For quest items Lost ark has a good system for it. Instead of needing to collect 10 items where it only has a chance to drop you need 100 of them and are always guarenteed a drop just the ammount is a random number based off the drop chance.
Boss loot should be RNG with some items using a shard system if not dropped(like quest items)
Damage ranges need to exist just nothing too extreme unless its a couple of specific items that defines a build (such as a ring that moves 50% of minimum damge to the maximum damage with a multiplier)
Crits should exist in some form. It needs a system that makes it so that if u have say 50% crit chance you are not going to crit 100 times in a row or not crit 100 times in a row. each crit lowers the % a bit and each non-crit raises the % a bit (obviously hidden though). Also can we not let crit chance reach 100% I dont want it to become just a damage multiplier and instead be a hell yeh moment when you most powerful attack actually managed to crit if you built for it.
Chance to apply status effects should be buildup instead. 30% chance to poison instead is 30% poison buildup so players can plan when to apply the status effects. (for example build up the stun bar on a boss ready for when it does its big attack or have bosses that fail/weaken/change an attack if they become frozen half way through. imagine a boss suddenly spraying ice shards from their hammer just because the mage decided to freeze it at a stupid moment) and would make cooperation within a team and knowledge of the enemy a bit more necessary (I know i got a bit offtrack with the extra boss mechanics but the buildup bit still stands)
For boss applied status effects I dont mind if an attack has a 100% chance to apply a random status effect (such as a 25% chance to freeze, 25% chance to stun and a 50% chance to poison rolled seperately for each player) this keeps the supports on their toes
But RNG has different ways in which it can be adopted, some for better, some for worse. I myself love to know that theres some lil gadget that has a 0.1% chance of dropping somewhere and grinding for days there, but it should be an exception, not the standard (like something real special to go for when you really want it or to be proud of if you're lucky to drop it, not the whole game relating on these numbers).
I've seen different approaches about balancing rng vs. grind aswell: in Dragon's Prophet there was a chance for a rare dragon to spawn in a dungeon (0.1% literally) but at the same time an invisible system counting your clears within a timeperiod (usually a month) and if you'd go above 300 clears you would get a greatly increased chance of spawning it (30% flat) so you could "outgrind" your rng luck if you tried really hard, which was something i really liked.
Where i can agree with a lot of others that posted here: RNG has to be very carefully approached reagrding gear and upgrades. Having an upgrade chance is ok, but having gear get destroyed upon failure is a NO GO (looking at you there BDO...) I also like balanced out systems where upgrading your gear itself is a 100% given - but the possibility to add stats/enchantments on it is combined with an rng factor - but with the possibility of calculating against your rng luck: In Dragon's Prophet (yes, once again) you could transfer the stats onto your gear with the combination of depending how many stats you chose, the higher the chance and the rate it would get picked up with -> meaning if you'd pick 1 stat that 1 gets transferred 100% for sure but only with 80% of its value - if you pick 2 you have an rng factor of 50% (since only 1 gets transferred always) but it'd go over with 100% of its value - having 3 picked would give you 120% value for a 33% RNG gamble which you could more or less outsmart by pre-statting the gear so you wouldn't lose no matter which of the 3 stats gets chose. A really cool feature that rewards gamble but allows to reduce the gamble risks with precaution measures that would cost you more materials ofc.
The most fun example of RNG that I experienced is in FFXIV's fishing. Where you would go out to sea in this instanced ship to fish, and random events can proc, giving you buffs or higher chances of catching better fish.
I feel RNG is more acceptable in the enchantment system, but prefer crafting to be more stable.
Reason being thematic consistency: Crafting is a simulation of rational design strategy, whereas enchanting is mystical and upredictable in my head.
1. Drop tables
2. Exploration based diversions. E.g. RuneScape has a clue scroll system which could easily be adapted to become a fun treasure hunting diversion on AOC
3. Rare spawners - some games have special mobs that can spawn e.g. diablo has treasure goblins and special "cow levels" which are literally the best thing ever. Sometimes silly things like this give a much needed break from "the grind"
4. Animal husbandry - could have a chance of rare mutations/defects during "mating". This would lead to some sick unique mounts/pets and enhance connection to the game for users.
5. Combat when done correctly. Straight up RNG during combat/PvP feels unsatisfactory, that being said, critical hits (we all love DND here) are ALWAYS amazing for a player.
6. Whilst I'm on the DND lines, something I've never seen before which could be pretty epic is "critical fails", though not sure if all players could handle this.
Where do you feel RNG does not belong?
PvP if it's 100% RNG. My opinion is flat numbers based on stats + modifiers and then crits based on RNG/crit modifier. Crit damage modifier is nice addition too as allows specific build paths.
In short, RNG is acceptable if somebody has explicitly attempted to build their class around it. Not so much, if a tank just randomly 1shots someone.
RuneScape is an example of a game where rng has damaged PvP. You can be in max gear and fighting someone wearing no armour and still hit 0. Likewise u can use a special attack and just 1hit someone. Neither of these scenarios are healthy for PvP.
What RNG-based systems or features have you enjoyed the most?
1. Treasure goblin spawns
2. Juicy juicy pet drops
3. Access to hidden areas to explore e.g. keys/portal spawns
Edit:
It's also worth noting that having gear with different special effects/stats can be a fantastic way to use RNG and adds so much more customisation and playability to a game. Use diablo as an example, that game literally offers nothing but that sweet sweet chase to get a "perfect" price of gear with the most suitable special effects for your build. E.g. you could drop 2 of the same sword but one has a "lifesteal" effect on it and another has an "armour penetration bonus" effect on it. It's all about the gear grind my friends
Agreed. Enchant RNG is the worst thing ever. There's no reason to have this in a game. If you want to make it tough to enchant, just lower drop rates of enchant materials...
Good luck cooking a dragon buddy.. fireproof
RNG in combat often feels clunky and unrewarding. Having core rotation abilities proc'd on a % basis isn't a super fun mechanic to deal with. Having performance locked behind lucky procs leads to frustration when those procs don't happen. I don't like having dodge, parry, block chances etc be % based but rather action based. New World does this really well, in that dodging and blocking incoming damage is something you have to actively perform, as opposed to a system like WoW that has simple %'s based on gear stats. (I'm new to following AoC so I haven't seen any combat to know how it works)
RNG in gearing is essential. Obviously you don't want the best gear to be too deterministic to acquire, whether it's through drop rates or some other method, there needs to be something to chase. That being said not all gearing should be RNG, deterministic crafting especially for high level gear should be a reliable method for people to gear and crafting in general should play a vital role in endgame progression.
1: the penalty of failure. a HUGE example of this is found in Phantasy Star Online 2's upgrading system. You can add more effects onto a weapon, but trying to add one effect makes all effects have a chance of failure. This means by trying to add 1 effect to a weapon with say 4 effects, you can yield an item with 0 effects. A single button push should not negate hours if not days of grinding.
2: the chance of success. Im going to use Warframe as the example here. Some enemies have a 0.2% chance of dropping an item, and don't spawn very frequently (like maybe 5 per round and rounds are ~5 minutes). A non-mathematically-inclined person might think "If I kill them 500 times, 0.2*500 is 100%" but the fact is that the real statistics say only 63% of people will have gotten that item after 500 kills. heck even after 1000 kills only 86% of people on average will get the drop. Point is, with drop rates less than 10%, there needs to be an engaging failsafe that doesn't give players the item on a silver platter, but also doesn't allow the realistic probability that someone can spend a disproportionately long time trying to get an item.
Both of these end up with the same annoying situation: "Ive been doing this for-freaking-ever and still haven't gotten what I want". A player should not be sent off to do the same repetitive task(s) seemingly without end. That will quickly lead to bots taking over the gameplay (See Lost Ark) or players becoming disinterested (See New World). If both issues are addressed, I would gladly play a game with RNG in it.
A little bit of work is fine; years of killing the same boss over and over again for a certain weapon / mount / whatever, is tedious and undesirable.
I would much rather there be a system where I can earn tokens towards purchasing the things I want, so that its deterministic. This also keeps me engaged since I know for sure I am working towards something.
Imagine most elite creatures dropping a token and raid bosses dropping 500 tokens; that fancy sword is 3500 tokens at the vendor. I could technically go kill 3500 elites, or I'd likely get there faster by killing raid bosses or winning a siege.
That said, it is a pleasant surprise to get the item ahead of time through RNG.
If standard loot drop RNG is a must for Ashes of Creation; I humbly ask for a bad luck protection system. As an example, if something has a 1% drop rate, let that drop rate go up by 1% after each failure. Here again, even if it takes me 100 kills, I know for sure I will get it someday sooner than later.
Thank you!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP31ixSBO7GHKLBefWVcJaA
For upgrading gear in theory I'd like the option to 100% succeed in an upgrade if you use enough mats for instance, if you add a rng lower chance for less mats I am totally fine with that.
I dislike gear upgrading/enhancing with gear getting destroyed if you fail, unless you can avoid that in a non p2w matter.
For loot dropping I am fine with RNG, I kinda dislike super low droprates though. I rather have a stronger/harder boss drop the better loot with a normal droprate than a weakass boss having a 1% chance to drop a sick item. Well it also depends on how repeatable the mobs/bosses are. On a weekly lockout I have bigger issues with small dropchance and on mobs/bosses I can just grind out I don't mind it as much.
Some RNG to PvE can spice it up and make it less repetitive.
Like when fighting a boss that has different mechanics and he can use them in randomized order (just gotta make sure that they are outplayable no matter the order)
Or some open world mob using attacks in a randomized matter.
I am fine with critchance and procs in PvE, however with some normalization I don't wanna crit with 20% critchance 5 times in a row or fail to crit with 80% 5 times in a row.
I am not the biggest fan of abilities missing, if you plan on having normal attack being missable please add something like hitrating so you can be sure your shit will actually hit.
I personally hate RNG aspects in PvP, just feels frustrating to lose a match/fight, because my opponent got more lucky than me or hollow if I beat someone just because I was more lucky.
Obviously skill will lead you to win more games on average, but I'd personally don't mind if the better player wins 100 out of 100 fights.
I also think crowd control abilities both in PvP and PvE should always work outside of enemy creature/player using certain abilities to counter it, being immune, lower duration, etc.
For questing I really dislike RNG. Like dropchance for a questitem, just sucks when you are stuck on a collect quest and the mob has a supposed 50% dropchance and you killed 10 in a row without getting a drop.
Then you cleared all the mobs in the area and you have to wait for respawns...
I think you described Eqs system which was pretty good I thought.
Drop: I think the rng to drop very rarity items is cool as long as there is a craft of the item available because there really are people who will not drop at all and probably don't have an offer for the amount of demand, causing the player's progress depend on luck and not on your own effort.
Craft: I think the ideal is to make the item and have progress to make to improve it and not simply depend on rng, I played BDO for a long time and I never had a boss weapon because I never dropped it and I was never able to buy it, and that takes away the feeling of reward that keeps the taste for the game alive.
I've always been a big fan of mmo, but one mmo that spoiled my experience and one of the most frustrating mmos I played was Black Desert Online because rng, everything is rng, there are times when the player feels that for more effort and effort to dedicate to a goal that will never work, I played black desert for much more than a year, and I NEVER dropped or managed to buy a boss weapon, but a colleague of mine with 2 weeks of game dropped one, and this is ABSURDLY frustrating , the enchantment system and everything that rng represents spoils the experience and the feeling of reward that a player should have after his effort, I think I could have an enchantment system with safe enchant up to 70% of max enchantment, and after that having rng BUT some item in quests or something else that players would gather to gradually increase the chance until it is 100% safe, because the player spends a month farming and then nothing happens is the worst feeling a game can cause.
I don't think that RNG for gear upgrades, or for gear stats are ideal.
I personally was not a fan of Lost Arks character progression being locked behind RNG, and the pity system was a bit demeaning imo - Your buddy or a streamer you watch would get super lucky, but most others had to waste resources and time accruing pity points to progress.
RNG for gear power is not something I'm interested with interfacing with. IE titanforging from wow, It creates a desire and meta to find the perfect piece of gear, which is unlikely to find, or really expensive
I once saw a video discussing the differenc of RNG in Legue of legends and TCG's like MTG which rang true to me. The TLDR whas that different settings need different aproaches to when and how rng is used, and it always needs a way to strategicly swing the odds in your favor.
To be more precice: A game like LoL which can almost be played like chess, needs RNG to spice things up (also the way LoL targets "RNG" is quit interresting maybe take notes there).
However TCG's are deckbuilding games, where the hole point is to gain value and consistency out of a extremely random game, adding any further RNG elements like coin tosses is therefore problematic as you throw predictability out the window and need to decide if you are willing to gamble upon a gamble to get something. Most players only use such cards if either the expenditure is insignificant or the benefits beond brocken...
So as far as game mechanices go, trie to give rng a clear purpose ore make it the main obstical, so that its either to spyce up an otherwise bland math equation or to creat a seamingly simple puzzle everyone atempts to solve (and let both efficiency and creativity be rewarded).
As for loot. Well I really like how the Monster Hunter franchiese has handeled it. Thers a host of items you get from killing the monster and the more effort you put into thourougly destroying every brakable part it has, the higher chances you have in recieving the rare drops.
That being said, too much RNG in a game does make things unnecessarily frustrating -- especially considering one major reason ppl come to games is to enjoy a brief escape from the brutal reality, and just want to feel rewarded for the effort they put in (since that's not always the case in RL).
IMO the *exceptionally bad* RNGs are those that simply flush hours (or even days, months, or more) of a player's effort down the drains:
- When you've spent countless hours farming for a set / unique item and it finally drops, only for it to roll a crap/useless modifier and making the item essentially worthless. (e.g. in Diablo 3)
- When you've invested a lot of time/effort/gold gathering the necessary rare ingredients to craft a piece of unique/legendary gear, but a bad RNG roll blows everything into oblivion, or leaves you with a piece of crap with worthless stats instead.
Lottery type RNGs with long lasting impacts are also just bad:
- In Eve Online, when they first introduced T2 modules & ships, the blueprint-originals (crafting receipes with infinite uses) were distributed in an entirely luck-dependent, lottery-like manner. Those who got their hands on them became insanely rich, since those T2 BPOs are essentially money printers. The devs eventually noticed this and reworked T2 manufacturing, making new T2 BPOs no longer obtainable. But those that already exist in game would continue to function as money printers till their owners quit ...
Acceptable RNGs for me, on the other hand, would be ...
- Soemthing that grants more or less favorable outcomes, but not "down the drains" ones. e.g. crafting / enchanting rolls on a relatively minor fluctuation of stats (e.g. +10 ~ +15 str on a sword, but never unrelated stats like +10 str vs +10 ranged accuracy), or cases that grant rewards/progressions in different (but meaningful) directions.
- Something that correctly represents the "risk" of an action, and allow those "risks" to be mitigated by character skills or additional items/resources/efforts. e.g. if you're going to have success/fail RNGs in crafting/enchanting, make it only involve receipes that have "volatile" ingredients, and allow players to push the success rate to 100% by having high enough skills or by adding enough "stabilizer" items.
- "All or nothing" type RNGs could exist, but plz leave them to scenarios that represent "gambles", e.g. when attempting to craft an item well beyond the character's skill level.
RnG can be applied to action and tab, why would you think other wise? It just means you can miss your spell as well do to your own aim on top of it.
I think people are getting action combat confused with heavy action and shooter type games, that generally shouldn't be how its like. There should be a heavy targeting in the direction you are looking at so the player can do what they need to do as easy as possible to compare to the tab target side of abilities.
If a game was like that i could beat it in a month and have all content done. I think people a missing on the idea the RNG is needed in a mmo. You can base your expectations on i didn't get the one most rare thing in the game so rng is bad. The important part to rng is that it has layers to ti through your experience based on the weekly time you put in. You need a mix that allows the player to feel progression, the struggle and the rush of a big gain.
So long as the player plays and feels they are gaining something over time big or small it won't be bad. If a player is playing and feel they have got nothing in a month, or even worst have lost items and gold over the month instead of progression that is the true worst outcome.
Also page 10 of enhancing i did a idea on how to approach enhancing without leaving as negative a feeling.
BDO should not be used as an example of the baseline of what mmos normally do. BDO is everything you shouldn't do in a system, so using the absolutely worst rng system ever is not a fair compassion for any other mmorpg as it isn't normal and you would have to be crazy to copy that. BDO was designed to be a online casino from progression, gameplay, combat, loot boxes, etc.
A bit in crafting. Having a low chance of crafting an item beyond your current level as well as a small chance of failure makes successes more impactful. Especially if you can increase your chance at the former through quantity of crafting (character lifetime) or some type of special exploration/dungeon/raid/pvp reward/etc.
Damage/Healing range on abilities can add a layer of excitement beyond just critical modifiers. There can even be an Augment that normalizes to the above the median (in case you need more ideas for Augments).
Randomized augments for Raid/World bosses could keep meta builds in check for those encounters.
Adding to my previous comment as additional thoughts: attacking/blocking/dodging/parrying/evading should all be active actions controlled by the player, not % based.
Coming from Lost Ark - which I played every single day since the launch - I have to say RNG is something that completely ruins the game if not used in moderation. It's honestly a gambling simulator over there but even in smaller doses it can be dangerous.
If RNG is used in minor cases, such as achievements or some other type of horizontal progression like collectables, trophies, etc - then it's fine... still, it has to be used in moderation. Also, some classes may depend on RNG to an extent but that needs to be player's choice to pick them with full knowledge of having to deal with said RNG.
DO NOT have overall progression depend on RNG. I know that gambler's dopamine hit is an easy way to go about making games nowadays but PLEASE resist such tropes.
Everything in an MMORPG should feel EARNED.
I can't describe to you how disgusting it feels when you spend 12 hours a day 7 days a week playing every single aspect of the game and just get "unlucky" with the RNG rolls only to have a "lucky" guy pass you by with 1/3 of the effort you've invested.