I really like the hard cap on stats system that DAoC had. You could still min-max and have fun with that, but you had to spread out your stats, creating more well-rounded characters without the extreme glass-cannon builds for example.
Loot obviously is a stickler, that's why its 95% of the discussion here. People don't like getting screwed, or spending endless hours attempting to get something that you might not get the entire time you play a game (years), which is dumb.
Enhancing an item that has a chance of the item breaking will definitely make a player 1) attempt it, even if the chance of success is low, and 2) they will quit the game (IE no more revenue from them) if it breaks.
I prefer RNG in getting the materials necessary for the craft, and the craft to succeed 100% chance if the crafter has the necessary skill. If a failure (because not having max skill for the craft), there should be a skill increase, and a chance of material return, 0-N of each item used, better as skill advances.
RNG for named npc spawn: So in Everquest (at least early on), a zone would have a number of named spawns possible. In areas throughout the zone, there were groups of spawns that could be slain to get a RNG chance of a named. Say 10 mobs, all orcs per-se, when they respawn, there's a chance one of them will be the named chieftain. That named might drop rarer armor/weapon/craft drops where the trash mobs could have money/general craft/sellables items. Players could camp say 3 named areas as a group, and might have several groups throughout the zone trying to farm the names for the items they were looking for. The named mobs were like mini-bosses considerably harder than the trash mobs. RNG on named spawn created a fun mechanic.
I realize that, by nature, RNG has to permeate a lot of video games; but I'm of the camp that wants as little of it as possible when it comes to anything that really matters. One of the worst systems for a lot of people are the "enhancement" systems in a lot of eastern MMOs. I think that ESO did an alright job with its RNG set gear drops (some you'd get exclusively in dungeons, others you'd piece together doing open world activities). Obviously there should be RNG involved in mob loot drops, whether you crit or not, and raid gear is ubiquitously RNG, so it needs to have its place.
I never gamble, because I feel like my RNG sucks, so in my mind I'm just literally throwing my money away, and the same is true with loot boxes. I never never buy them. I might get some for free, but I never win anything good, so why would I ever pay money?
Games like BDO that make me feel like I'm grinding against the wind because of RNG setbacks make me rage quit. I vehemently hate those mechanics.
Combat:
Simple answer, RNG has no place in combat if you want it to be taken seriously (which I do). However, minor things like critical hits and minor heal procs are fine as they aren't impactful enough to single handedly change the outcome of the fight. Incoming/receiving CCs should NOT be determined by RNG. Blocks and dodges should not be determined by RNG on an all or nothing basis.
Non-combat:
Drops, encounters, and with some caveats upgrading can greatly benefit from RNG. I personally think rare drops are great. PvE encounters that include RNG can help to make them feel unique in multiple playthroughs. RNG in gear progression can be good if done right or really bad if done sub-optimally. I think a lot can be learned from black desert as they did many things really well and many things really poorly. I think having a non-RNG alternative for upgrades that is reasonable would be very well received.
Games usually have the pity timer dressed up as a dungeon token of some kind where you can go to a npc and buy the item.
Knowing that there are other avenues to reaching your goal gives the players hope and takes the edge off so no matter how many times you do the content you can focus on having fun since you know you will get where you want to be eventually.
And you can still feel like you earned the item at the end of the day because you put the work in.
This is really well put.
I'd add that drops be player based not NPC based, IE. If the npc drops a mount, it doesn't get RNG divided among the players there to kill it or worse first person to loot gets it (and may choose to distribute it among the group/raid members unless you come up with a nice DKP (pity) system to compensate for that). Instead it be RNG determined if each player gets the mount, so it could drop 0 - N number of players based on the RNG. A pity token would be nice if the drop rate is super low, as cat said that you'd have a given number of runs on the npc needed to get the item eventually anyway.
Agreed here for non-combat RNG.
RNG is a double edged sword. It gives the hope that getting the item can be completed without an endless grind, but at the same time can turn into an endless grind.
A game should be fun, not feel like a second job or a chore where time is wasted for a grind. Having only RNG for loot drops can cause the player to get demoralized for having bad luck and having wasted time. Having only a token system creates a time lock behind the gear with no chance of excitement. Therefore, the ideal system would both reward luck and time invested paving towards a trackable goal.
For example, if rare item(s) does not drop, one of two (or both) trackable metrics should apply:
1. Progressive RNG: After each attempt, the drop chance for item should progressively increase up to 100% drop. If it drops sooner, excitement arises, but without a drop it still creates progress towards the goal. Time is never wasted. However, this progress needs to be visible for the player to track their progress towards said item. If the item can repeatedly drop, then the system can reset after each drop
2. Token System: Tokens drop which can be turned in for the player’s choice of specific items. This creates trackable progress. To encourage replay ability after achieving needed gear, adding in items like consumables, token exchanges, or other in game currencies will help.
Ultimately, combining both a progressive RNG and a Token System would create achievable satisfaction towards playing different sets of content. This will create measurable and trackable progress while using RNG in an exciting way. No system will ever be perfect, but a good game developer will create a system so players have fun and not time gate anyone behind a boring, repetitive grind.
Rare / unique item drop RNG, weapon drop stat RNG, and damage RNG ranges are all fine. And I like resource location and/or time having some RNG (within applicable biomes), although I think that and mob respawn times should factor in number of players in the area to some level.
Absolutely nothing that would lock you out of content or is involved in anything time-gated should be RNG. Lost Ark RNG on iLevel honing success/failure where iLevel decides what content you can access is an example of very bad RNG implementation. The type of stats that appear on crafted gear (especially on gear that has time-gated mats) also is just plain frustrating. Reasonable ranges on various stats on those crafted items I'm more okay with. But if you implement a luck system that impacts RNG success, please be upfront with the players on the details of this.
Loot drops particularly in dungeons and raids I think the best systems is RNG but with a failsafe. As an example would be each boss you kill you have a chance to get a piece of gear from when killed. When you are not awarded a piece of gear instead you are given a currency/token that after you collect so many you can purchase a piece of loot from that specific activity. This way you may still get the piece of gear you are looking for while doing runs but after X runs if you still don't have it then at least you will be able to purchase it. In past mmo that I have played it always feels bad when you are farming the same raid/dungeon for months and never get the drop you want/need. I think that all gear should be bound to character on pickup with maybe a trade window for those that were in party for an hour after pickup.
If doing a master looters situation give a window of 5-10 minutes for loot council to divide the gear then award all players that don't receive gear the currency. In my opinion if you are able to code a screen that shows all players name and class with drag and drop onto the player being awarded gear and then a confirm button this would be easiest for the system to know when to calculate who gets the tokens.
On random mobs and world bosses let those drops be completely rng and unbound so that they have value for the market and players that have them.
combat so when it comes to combat there are a bunch of different categories to be discussed.
General combat/mechanics of classes
So in my opinion class and skill design that revolves around procs(rng) to do dps feel very inconsistent and upsetting to play. You will do multiple runs and never get the same dps. I think having skill rotations are great. I think having an ability that just gives you a window that removes cooldown on a skill is fine and make it so by using another skill reduces the cooldown of the ability to remove that cooldown is more engaging and rewards proper play of character.
Pve
So I think mobs and bosses having rng attack patterns is great and keep people engaged. One thing that kinda kills WoW devs are 3rd party addons that let the players know exactly when in the fight the bosses will do a certain attack. I think one way to combat this is to make it so at certain time/hp percentage it rolls a dice on what move from the pool it uses. Sure you can keep certain moves consistant such as stacks that require the tanks to swap agro. I think damage ranges on abilities are okay I don't love the idea since you already have rng with crits just seems like a lot of rng.
Pvp
Rng sucks here don't use at all. Crit is only thing that is rng that would be okay. If there are damage ranges on skills make it so in pvp it takes the average damage of the range against players.
profession so rng on professions are fine just to feel like you are progressing the skill levels that the window gets smaller.
Gathering
Pretty obvious that there should be ranges on material pick up that get smaller as skill improves.
Refining
So I think when refining the material there for a more realistic feel rng on how much you get refined is also okay. So for example if you have 100 logs and you are refining to planks depending on skill level only lose between 1%-10% materials so you either end with 90 or 100 planks. Once you are a master of refining that material you will always get a perfect conversion.
Crafting
Rng on stat drops like craft with random attributes but would like a system to be able to change 1 stat on a piece of gear to a desired stat if it is above a certain quality level(like only on epic or higher) this way crafters or buyers can change a almost perfect piece of gear to a perfect piece.
spawn timers
I think all rares should have a spawn time window. Example would be you killed the rare then the next person has to wait between 10-25 minutes for it spawn this way in makes the wait more interesting for pvp to take place if wanting the loot. World bosses should be set on and X interval so that once killed it spawns every X interval (example 1 hour) I feel like World bosses aren't the place where you want people to fight amongst themselves but to rally together and fight requiring large groups 20+ to bring down.
All in all rng is fine but don't hold progression of character back too much or else people will feel left behind and frustrated.
RNG for Loot. Make some things incredibly rare. Not everyone needs to get everything.
I loved the fact that in Order and Chaos Online very few players ever got an opportunity to get a Legendary Weapon, and when you did it was a group effort that could take months. The pre-Legendary was an extremely rare drop - our Guild only ever got one, and even then it was only one of a dual wield pair.
You then had to accumulate Lava Cores - a very rare drop that your group-mates could defer to you, and when you had enough turn them in to an NPC for a Group Quest to take down a very tough Boss to get the catalyst. Some time after you turned that in there was a Ceremony for the whole server where you received your Legendary. An unforgettable experience.
The pre-Legendary was best-in-class and when upgraded to Legendary was improved enough to give you a further edge. But nothing OP. No-one complained that they were wielded in PvP; everyone was hoping to get their own.
I've been playing MMOs for 20+ years and RNG is always a nightmare. I don't think anything should be 100% RNG. Especially today with machine learning capabilities, all of the 'randomness' should be, let's say, 'educated randomness' (like an educated guess). Randomness in a game is fantastic when it comes to how the world works (random storms, random floods, random animals showing up in random places but not where they wouldn't normally go unless a big monster is chasing them! ) ..
The educated randomness would be based on data, such as, if it's 40C outside and 2 seconds later it's snowing, is not a good random thing to happen. Dungeons and bosses would be amazing if they were based on machine learning (i.e. the NPCs learn as you fight them and no fight will ever be the same). Even wolves, dogs, bears, whatever if that's in the game would react slightly different. This would immensely up the immersion factor and I haven't seen any game do it to date.. Anyway I digress, that's another subject.
Randomness for progression is by far the absolute worst thing for me, personally, or any type of system where your progress depends on luck. What happens because of this system is that the people who play 16 hours a day and spend tons of money on the game actually get the gear (i.e. BDO and others like it). But the majority of the players like myself who cannot play 16 hrs a day, can't even play the game because of this. The world is different now, 10-20 yrs ago it was very rare to find players playing 16+ hrs a day and now it's very common due to streaming and a lot of other factors.
So, the progression system needs to allow casual players to progress at the same speed as those 16 hr a day players, or at the least close the gap .. so they play a lot more and can get 5-10% stronger but not 1000%. So you wonder what this has to do with RNG? Any type of game that depends on random drops or random chances to upgrade gear like +8 +10 +16 etc and it's a 10% chance and you need to farm something to try again or repair it.. well, the players that play the most will get more chances to try because they keep farming the items over and over and the casual player will try once a week and keep failing and end up quitting because they farm 5-6 hrs a week and get absolutely nowhere (big waste of time for nothing).
Personally I like to log in and play the game, not grinding/farming. Most of MMO to me interaction with other players.
RNG has its place because it's really nice to randomly have something happen like a good loot drop or whatever but that can't be the only system. I'm an engineer (for work) and have thought up many different ways of doing this.
So
RNG for gear progression = not really, but sometimes, educated randomness but not required (this is so people get surprises sometimes but not a necessity) -- educated meaning that if a player doesn't get something for a while, it keeps track of this (i don't really like the pity token idea, iId rather the system keep track of the 'luck' factor and rebalance it in real time to keep progression more equalized) -- so there could be a system where someone could use RNG to try and progress and another where they could guarantee it, depending on the player's preference they could go either way. I prefer a game where gear progression isn't the main goal of the game.. Learning your character and getting good at the game and the mechanics and the world is more important. Being able to min/max gear with your abilitiy trees and modifiers is also key (i.e. things like having points into regen mana in your tree, but then you get a piece of gear that regens mana so you can move those points in the tree to something else, but that piece of gear does less dmg so it's a tradeoff.. these kind of tweaks to playstyle of the players preference rather than locking them into one way of doing it)
RNG for mechanics = yes and no! I know some people don't like it, but it should be machine learning/AI not 100% random.. every fight different (spawn an instance on some AI accelerator servers every time a group engages a boss or some sort of intelligent mob) or even have employees of the company play the boss
RNG for crafting = sure, but not totally.. surprises here and there like a crit is fine but not depend on it
RNG for loot from mobs = not really.. this should be somewhat AI also, depending on what the loot is
RNG for the world = again, ML or AI stuff where it doesn't do things that wouldn't normally happen in a world. Like if it rains a lot, the lakes should fill up , if it doesn't they should go down a bit, etc. Animals could migrate around. It sucks in 2022 that MMOs still have the same mobs in the exact same locations all the time, when we have all this glorious AI/ML compute power to work with.
RNG for combat = as little as possible.. if there's a crit/block/parry system maybe a little there is ok but most of the time randomness is not good for combat especially pvp. I will agree that sometimes, every once in a while, it's hilarious when something happens that is random and that should happen occasionally (like a spell backfiring or randomly doing something crazy but very small chance). Keeping a lot of randomness out of combat so that when someone does something right it shows, or when someone messes up they know it rather than it be lucky random blocks or misses or whatever.
RNG for CC = no .. this can't, not even DR. The best CC system I've ever seen is one where you got hit by a CC and then you were immune to that particular CC for a while but not other types, and most classes in the game only had one type, sometimes 2, so no single person could CC , but a well timed coordinated group could, but then the other group could cleanse it. No random cc's or hard lockdowns forever like most games these days seem to have, only a few second is ok. I'd prefer no CC in game at all just moves and counter-moves like dodges, blocks, pulls, pushes, maybe an interrupt but mostly instantaneous stuff where you never lose ability to control yourself for more than 0.2s or so.
I saw one post about glass cannons.. those are fine! as long as it's a tradeoff, they can do a ton of dmg but will die super fast if they get hit..(i.e. "I know if I get to you, you are dead; I know if you hit me it's going to hurt" ).. If there's no tradeoff then it's broken. This does make a lot of variety in pvp and even pve sometimes.
Wow I posted a lot more than just RNG stuff, oops
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BrigadoomMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited June 2022
RNG is great when trying to gather something from the land or from a monster. I think the chance rates need to be well tested but I do enjoy exploring the world looking for something and the "RNG" of me coming across it. I am also a fan of classes, abilities, items, and such that augment your RNG results. (Example: I am a ranger and I am more likely to encounter tracks to find an animal to skin for a particular hide I am looking for). An example of where I despise RNG is with Archeage's gear improvement system. I would rather cause myself physical harm then have to deal with that BS progression system again.
RNG... To me RNG can be a very good and very bad thing, depending on where and how it is applied.
LOOT
RNG is fine on most MOBs/NPCs. But one thing that I find very important is logical loot drops. They give the world a more realistic and grounded feel, it gives the player a greater feeling of immersion.
(EG, Animals dropping materials that are part of them, teeth, fur, scales etc. give great immersion. Animals dropping Swords, Armour and Gold breaks immersion.)
Bosses and Important creatures having RNG loot tables can be ok if there is a system in place to give the player a variety on what drops for them. There is nothing worse than player killing the same Boss over and over to get a particular item, but it keeps dropping the same wrong item over and over.
DAMAGE
RNG is Player / NPC / MOB damage is fine as long as the range of RNG damage isn’t too big.
Critical Hit are a perfect example of Good RNG in combat, but like most things seeing Critical hits too often will loose their luster and become less special.
I would like RNG to allow people to get the loot they want within a couple of runs through that dungeon / field boss or whatever. I'm against RNG being on a long world timer and then only some people that participate get the loot. I'm against RNG crafting. I'm also against exponentially increased RNG for higher tier items/traits. Repeating content can be fun, to a extent.
No RNG as far as gear acquisition goes, what-so-ever. PLEASE
Give me materials to craft the gear. Make it so that if I do X, I get Material X. If I do Y, I get material Y. None of this, if you do X for 1000 hours you MIGHT get a super mega ultra rare component drop. Now you only need 99 more to craft a Rusty Shortsword.
Give me tokens to redeem for gear at vendors. If I do activity X, I get a Good Boy token. For 12 Good Boy tokens I can get a piece of Good Boy Gear.
Deterministic gear acquisition only. And please please please PLEASE P L E A S E no rolling of stats on gear.
I agree with most of the opinions here so I will be short. I despise RNG with backwards progression, like, for example, in RNG enhancement system of Black Desert Online. The enhancement system in Lost Ark is better, but for my taste it is still not the best it could be.
I could imagine an enhancement system for gear that would have the RNG for those that want to risk enhancement with less resources to win big, but add another option to grind and pour more resources into enhancement to guarantee the upgrade for those that don't like RNG as much.
Also crafting and enchanting should not have RNG in term of stats, only maybe in term of their values. Like you can guarantee that sword will have a strength stat or even intelligence stat if you want, but the value of the stat ranges from min to max value for specific tier. Those values could then be adjusted based on crafting/enchanting level and quality of resources used and those quality resources would be RNG drops.
I do love me some RNG,
Don't have bosses spawn at a certain time but make them have a set cooldown period after which a time-window opens of 12-24hours(or longer). Say you kill a dragon worldboss like creature. Give him a 72h cooldown with a 24h window. That way people know the first 3 days after the kill he wont spawn, but he will spawn anywhere in the next 24h. that way you will have people fighting over the spawnlocation(also up for RNG) for a longer period of time instead of the last 5 minutes before a set spawntimer.
RNG on Enchanting should be challenging but not infuriating. Ofcourse the higher the itemlevel the harder it should become(Think higher level enchantment stones or higher grade). But it shouldn't feel like a total waste of time after spending lets say 1 week of gathering materials for it just to blow up in your face. I'd say never put the successrate at <50%. unless there are ways to add extra % via supplements or something.
Damage or combat can rely on RNG bigtime. Skills can have a percentage procrate on stuns, snares, blinds, fears. But it shouldn't be completely RNG. Some skills should have 100% on some effects while other skills shouldn't. This forces you to save skills over others.
What would work for me is that the more you proc something the less chance of proccing it has until your target dies/loses. That way in pvp you would theoretically not be able to RNG stunlock someone while the other person procs nothing.
Crafting RNG im all for. It shouldnt be easy to craft bis gear that is on par with the best you can drop from open world bosses. What could work is that if you fail to proc an item is that you can break it down for some materials that you can use in your next try. But it shouldnt be that if you have the materials for a bis item, you are guaranteed to get it. Aion had this system that was pretty good at this. If you wanted the best weapon version of a crafted weapon, you had to proc a normal into a noble, noble into heroic, heroic into fabled, and fabled into eternal. Now the procrate was about 25% for everything. So you end up making about 50-100 weapons to get the one you want. Takes effort and time. The thing they got wrong was that the only thing worth anything was the end result and the other weapons you made were pretty much worthless. You could break them down for enchantstones but that would almost never net you anything good.
Mob encounter RNG would be the best. Like random skills they use. Or random things they do. Like maybe running away towards more friendly mobs to ask for help, or stuff like that.
I am a huge fan of old Lineage 2. Mobs had an exact loot table with percentage chances for each thing. I kinda liked that. You know what you where grinding for and how hard it would be to get.
Also the enchanting system. Have a couple of safe levels, and further on you fail you loose the item. Great economy sinkhole.
As long as this drives the economy and includes lower level players in the process so enchanting requires a wide range of resources, both endgame and low level.
And I think the best one is random item drop, if you die with karma on you. Like being a criminal, when you get killed you drop a random item from you.
I don't like them getting destroyed randomly. Dropping them for others to pick up is much more exciting and entices players to go after criminals.
Also crafting RNG could be nice if done properly. Like having a small chance to get +1 enchant from the get go.
And it would be cool if this RNG could be on a personal level. Like one player could add garlic to making a sword to have higher chances of a better result, while another has to add tomato sauce.
This way a crafter really needs to experiment and not just read an Internet guide.
RNG or Luck in Online Games is a good thing, it adds realism to the Game, because also RL does have the component of Luck in it. The hardest thing is the adjustment and occurrence of it inside the game and its systems. It should be there but it should not turn the Game into a Casino with tons of Slot Machines.
I did Experience a lot of games with RNG Systems in them some just had a small amount like for combat when to dodge, evade or critical hit others had it almost casino style with crafting and +sing, Procing of special stuff during crafting, gathering, improvement of gear and battle to name one that is known to Intrepid studios: Aion from NCSoft.
Where to use RNG and How much it should affect things is hard to tell, since what I have experienced from Alpha one were only Placeholder systems and so I don't know how exactly the crafting, combat and gear improvement as well gathering and dropping does work in Ashes. So to answer the 3 mentioned questions, I will need to expand into the specific systems to describe it as best I can.
To mention beforehand, I love besides MMO-RPG games as well as Survival games and Games with a learning by doing skills improvement system (which however is rare to find in RPG games).
Which systems do you feel utilize RNG the best?
Combat:
The Placeholder System in Alpha One showed a semi Tab Target system, where some attacks needed a target selected, some did go off in the view directions and others needed to mark a zone on the ground in a RTS optic to cast. Depending on the way of targeting the RNG factor should be different and maybe also add the possibility to use Tab Target skills without a selected target simply by only aiming, also the choice of View perspective from the player should have an effect on Skills and RNG. In a way that a 3 Person view may have less accuracy and less potential to do critical hits or inflict maximum skill dmg, ego perspective gives better view of direction and player may be able to target weak spots easier so they can do critical hits more frequently however the view perspective does also lead to a loss of vision of their surroundings, so that in team play a combination of both would be the best and that teamplay gets a boost depending on the players natural skill of collecting and sharing informations on the go. Also the HP of the target should affect the RNG of Damage inflicted on the Target the less the target has the higher the chance of High Dmg, but since by then targets often going berserk it will not get easier.
So depending on view perspective and if a Target is tabbed or not the RNG does boost up or get decreased. So that players that decide to give up view will gain a smaller range of RNG on their hits which leading to them dealing more often dealing max skill dmg and inflicting more often critical hits, tab target has the benefit of the aim assist and thru that the dmg RNG is the biggest ranging from the lowest possible to the highest incl crits, the marking on the ground skills also coming with a high RNG depending on how the skill does work, if it's a meteor showerd then it's RNG is High due to not knowing when and where on the marked area each meteor hits and depending on the movement of the mob or opposing player it can be critical maybe even do a CC effect or dealing allmost nothing cause the target is at the edge of the zone. Other aoes like an explosion or so also have RNG on them but with a smaller RNG range the closer to the center of the marked zone the higher the chance to deal maximum or critical damage to the target.
On Healingside the RNG isn't much present and effected on the Aiming itself it is more affected by the condition of the Targets health so that a heal may only heal its minimum to a slightly wounded player however if they are close to death it has a higher chance as well to be a Critical heal that does heal up a lot.
Skill dmg:
Skills should have a range of dmg that shows their RNG range but they also should have a learning by using component build into them so that this range gab getting smaller and thru that the RNG effect is weekend for example:
a skill does 50-100 Dmg if never used now you get 50 dmg out always and depending on RNG between 0-50 additional dmg. But now some time has passed and you used the skill and you got better in handling and maxed it out and now the same skill does 75-100 dmg so there is still rng to it but the rng range has gotten smaller. Shure this does benefit those that play a lot over those that don't use that much time or prefer to have Toons instead. But the topic is about RNG
Loot Drops:
Loot Drops RNG should be effected by several conditions that lead to the defeat of the Enemy, that also take account for the amount or time and player it took to kill the time of life of the mob and also if it did beat up its attackers or even wipe them.
Depending on that and the form it has taken (especially dungeons where the player amount inside does change the Boss HP and skills).
Also seasons should be in account for drop rng so that if you need the belly fat aof a bear then your luck is higher if you try to obtain it during winter rather than during sommer. but may result also in a different battle style cause in winter the bear is in its cave and so the space for combat is limited but since he was sleeping its movements may be a bit slower and its attack pattern different but maybe it hits more powerful and the thith space makes it harder to evade or dodge them than a fight in the open would be. and these conditions may also add rng to it.
On the looting RNG should also hit in place on ninja looting where someone loots that didn't kill it or helped in the process, so that those with the most kill counter % on them will have the highest RNG chance and if those are the ones looting first it may increase the loot in quality and quantity. so that if the player with 10% counter and the player with 2% both would loot the same mob at the same time the player with 10% may have a RNG range for loot quality and quantity from 5-10 the one with 2% only from 2-7 and the ninjalooter may only get a 0-5 range out of the mob.
Gathering:
Gathering RNG should be in place to reward dangers and competition So that resources that are rare or at dangerous places (Mob or environment) have a higher RNG chance to reward additional resources or even a rare item with them. This goes for all resources and also does the amount farmed in the area also affect the rng possibility of the farmable content. Farmed ressources on Private property however do not have RNG at all, they always give the same amount and have 0 chance to get special items from them.
Crafting:
Rng In crafting should be primarily in a way to have a chance to get a better quality product or increase the quantity of a craft, Failure are depressing in that matter however the Level of the craft skill could change that in the way that if you have just the level needed to craft a item then there is a chance of failure however the more level over the level needed to craft should erase that possibility of failure. On Maxed level crafts however there should not be a failure at all at best somewhat between 25-50 level over the needed craft level to erase the failure possibility and on the last crafts if for example the maximum level for crafting is 500 then crafts from level 450 upwords does not have a chance to fail at all.
Gear Improvements:
Adding Gems or +sing of Gear and Weapons need a RNG with a failure chance it should however be low the lower the +sing is. Gems should only fail to put in however maybe with a counter on them for trys to put them into gear also the possibility to remove them safely but decreasing the count on trys on them by 2 if they got put out and maybe some crafts to repair them a bit or craft them in lesser gems with full try crounter.
Where do you feel RNG does not belong?
Hard to tell, RNG does exist almost everywhere where players are involved, whether direct or indirect.
RNG should not take place in NPC Vendors Prices from Vendors should be not be effected direct by RNG however if they using the system of Request and supply then its is affected by RNG already thru the sells of players that gather resources and sell these and craft goods to them.
Fees and rents for Housing should not fall into RNG also stuff like death penalties and respawn place. These things should be ruled by systems that don't use RNG in them.
Rolling the dice is a Fully RNG mechanic however it should be ruled to lessen its RNG effect. so that the chance of rolling higher numbers getting bigger the more low numbers you rolled and vice versa the more high numbers the higher the chance for low ones.
Or systems where class gear and weapons have a higher chance to land in the hands of those in need over those without it but since Ashes doesn't have this classbound gear and weapon this is already.
For Ashes and RNG i hope there will be no Gatcha Games in the game something simular to what (Balde n Soul had in it)
What RNG-based systems or features have you enjoyed the most?
The excitement of a rare drop and the disappointment of the roll the dice on them only to get a low number.
The excitement of a rare find in gatherings and then the failure on the craft where this rare item was needed.
Regards Asraiel
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Also crafting and enchanting should not have RNG in term of stats, only maybe in term of their values. Like you can guarantee that sword will have a strength stat or even intelligence stat if you want, but the value of the stat ranges from min to max value for specific tier. Those values could then be adjusted based on crafting/enchanting level and quality of resources used and those quality resources would be RNG drops.
Which systems do you feel utilize RNG the best?
To put it simply the tried and true method of boss loot, however it is also a balance of making sure that the loot that can drop off a boss is worth it, weather it be meaningful stats and effects or the piece itself having a larger role to play in the overall game, for example the corrupt ash bringer. When the gate is the boss to knockdown and the loot received is on a dice roll the enjoyment and excitement of getting rewarded is directly tied to the usefulness or prestige of what can be acquired.
Where do you feel RNG does not belong?
Crafting, but to an extent. By this I mean that when you craft an item and it has a chance of getting extra stats or a gem socket (broad examples) this can often make other things crafted to be considered useless as it didn't have that RNG bonus. However this can be rectified with have options to use rare materials to perfect that item being crafted, for example New World has this system and it is one of the best parts of said game. So while RNG can be present if there is no way around that system it will always feel bad without and broad bad luck protection can only help so much with various different systems depending on the construction of that square peg square hole.
What RNG-based systems or features have you enjoyed the most?
To the detriment of this posts integrity but as a broad comparison to other games (Destiny 2, WoW, New World ect) I believe Genshin Impacts systems of open world solo boss loot for upgrade materials, money, account xp and artifacts is the best on the market. Simply put you kill a certain boss as you are chasing a material needed to upgrade a character. Each boss (depending on world level diffulculty) will always give you a set amount of money, xp and upgrade materials, the RNG comes from bonus items that while not needed are helpful and feel like an added extra as nothing goes to waste. Randomized artifacts from sets have random bonuses but if you dislike that roll you can use it to level up an artifact you may like or simply destroy it for money. Elemental fragments also drop as character material and are relevant to the boss type itself, so while that may be random to a set extent all of it is useful, everything that drops is not just a drop without reason, dual purpose is the name of the game. These bosses are also not complete time wasters, for example in Destiny 2 you may have to go through a 10-20 minute strike to end up with blue glimmer fodder that only helps gain a resources that are so beyond farmable and accessible that its just pointless, ending up feeling like time wasted. These boss kills are often 5 mins or less (depending or optimization it can get crazy fast sub 10 seconds) and you know what you'll get to a certain extent, and everything can best also used to further your own player power. The downside to this system is the daily resin system but while related is more of a stopgap than anything and doesn't effect the loot rolls themselves.
It's always going to be a balance and the real foot in the door is knowing that the loot possible is worth chasing in any RNG system
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janusMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
No matter in which area - a little RNG is nice to add a bit of additional flavor, but if RNG has a significant impact then "why bother". That was one of the reasons why I quit black desert - I had the feeling it doesn't come down to effort or skill anymore.
No matter in which area - a little RNG is nice to add a bit of additional flavor, but if RNG has a significant impact then "why bother". That was one of the reasons why I quit black desert - I had the feeling it doesn't come down to effort or skill anymore.
The effort and skill comes in from the gathering of things.... what skill does it take to select a recipe? Rng need to be involved with the outcome of these recipes, and your "crafting dye" skill set will curve this rng. Thats where crafting skills come in...
So, from what I read here after I posted a comment, the solution for loot RNG would be that which gives the player a chance to get more loot. However, each activity would give them a certain, 100% chance, quantity of loot.
Please make gathering nodes spawn locations semi-random, like having almost all ores near mountains but the single node can spawn different types of ores. It's so boring having to travel always the same path.
I would rather "work" harder and longer to get what I need/want than RNG.
I dislike RNG so much, that it is one of the few things that can make me leave a game (Aion was really, really bad. GW2 and BDO)
I am thinking about crafting/upgrading gear.
Shop boxes with random items, I don't care, I just do not buy them if they are RNG.
Loot drops have always been RNG and I have no problems with that. The same, many times, goes for gathering and fishing.
I have an idea on loot regarding the most rare drops. Lets say some has like 0,01 chance to drop. For each time a player do not get that item the chance increases with 0,01. So that the player really grinds something rare, the chance to get it increases slowly for each time.
I mean its not fair that some has done something 100 or 1000 times has the same chance has some1 do it once and get the item. Dont know if its even possible to have personalized loot table like that. Maybe each character could chose 1 item on 1 boss/event/mob to have this mechanic apply to.
It will still be hard to get, but those who really put in the effort will have their chances improved over time and eventually get the the desired item.
I have an idea on loot regarding the most rare drops. Lets say some has like 0,01 chance to drop. For each time a player do not get that item the chance increases with 0,01. So that the player really grinds something rare, the chance to get it increases slowly for each time.
I mean its not fair that some has done something 100 or 1000 times has the same chance has some1 do it once and get the item. Dont know if its even possible to have personalized loot table like that. Maybe each character could chose 1 item on 1 boss/event/mob to have this mechanic apply to.
It will still be hard to get, but those who really put in the effort will have their chances improved over time and eventually get the the desired item.
I mean you could also just grind gold and purchase your desired item, for a 100% chance at getting it.......
Before the actual questions, I think the answers depend a lot on how the RNG is implemented. Generally speaking I much prefer a so called entropy-based or deck-of-cards RNG when it's guaranteed that the event will happen within a predetermined amount of attempts.
> Which systems do you feel utilize RNG the best?
* When the damage of an attack/spell is random within a not very big range, I don't have a problem with that.
* For anything else, where I don't care that much about any single outcome. So if the result is not that important to me to begin with, or if I do way more attempts than required for a desired outcome anyway, then it's fine.
> Where do you feel RNG does not belong?
* For events that I actually care about, knowing that something can happen, but the probability is so low, that it basically means there's no point in even trying to force it to happen.
* E.g. if a boss drops a cool mount with a very low probability. Even if I want the mount, knowing that the chance is low, I probably won't even try to get it. Mainly because it's super boring to farm the same boss for tens/hundreds of attempts. I'd either feel that the game turned into a job or that I'm wasting my time on something that is not even fun for me (and games are supposed to be fun).
* So, for all the RNG where the outcome actually matters to me I want the game to be as upfront and as deterministic as possible. It doesn't mean that it should be easy to e.g. get the mount from the example above. But if I can see that I'm actually making progress towards my goal and if I'm not forced to repeat the same activity for an unreasonable amount of time, then it feels much better. A decent solution here could be some kind of currency that drops from many places. This way I'll know how far away I am and I'll be able to passively collect it while I'm doing different fun things in the game.
> What RNG-based systems or features have you enjoyed the most?
* I like when there's a finite amount of outcomes and each outcome cannot happen twice. E.g. if it's a random box with a cosmetic item, I never want to have duplicates, and I want to know that by opening enough of them, I'll get what I actually want (just to make sure, this should not be a loot box sold for real money, I'm just describing a generic system).
* When there's a boolean event (either happens or not), it feels good to know that after each failure the game increases the probability of success in the future.
* In some card games you can destroy unneeded cards, get currency for that and buy a card that you actually wanted. This way even if you opened a lot of packs and only got duplicates, it wasn't a complete waste.
* Also in many card games you're guaranteed to get at least one rare+ card in each pack, I also liked that.
On the same thread, someone accurately responded: "Except that these ideas seem to be based on damage done, so the high damage characters get the loot and the buffers and healers do without. If this was a loot option, good luck finding a non-boxed competent healer to go with you on that raid!"
The following, on the other hand, is an approach I would find most desireable:
In the Burning Crusade expansion for World of Warcraft the raid bosses dropped tokens which could be traded into NPC vendors for items which was great. This way there was no wasted loot. You saved up the tokens and got what you wanted. With crafting the mobs could drop mats which could then be crafted into the item you desire.
That way, you could get what your heart desires and it would depend on successful teamplay instead of RNG. Makes a high-difficulty encounter feel a lot more rewarding.
There is nothing more frustrating than feeling like you have grinded certain content without ever getting any of the rewards you were after.
On the same thread, someone accurately responded: "Except that these ideas seem to be based on damage done, so the high damage characters get the loot and the buffers and healers do without. If this was a loot option, good luck finding a non-boxed competent healer to go with you on that raid!"
Do people seriously still play games where drops don't go to the whole party in the sort of situation I was describing?
I didn't realize that I needed to clarify that I was referring to 'Party Loot drops', my bad.
Is it acceptable to you if it's based on 'The DPS do the correct damage and then everyone gets to roll on the drops'?
I really wasn't imagining it any other way.
Also no, it isn't even damage done, it's based on damage TYPE done, yes. So there is a situation in which 'I don't have a Fighter in my group so we can't focus on getting these Scalerunner tails'. But given Ashes' philosophy, I would have assumed that was fine.
Comments
Enhancing an item that has a chance of the item breaking will definitely make a player 1) attempt it, even if the chance of success is low, and 2) they will quit the game (IE no more revenue from them) if it breaks.
I prefer RNG in getting the materials necessary for the craft, and the craft to succeed 100% chance if the crafter has the necessary skill. If a failure (because not having max skill for the craft), there should be a skill increase, and a chance of material return, 0-N of each item used, better as skill advances.
RNG for named npc spawn: So in Everquest (at least early on), a zone would have a number of named spawns possible. In areas throughout the zone, there were groups of spawns that could be slain to get a RNG chance of a named. Say 10 mobs, all orcs per-se, when they respawn, there's a chance one of them will be the named chieftain. That named might drop rarer armor/weapon/craft drops where the trash mobs could have money/general craft/sellables items. Players could camp say 3 named areas as a group, and might have several groups throughout the zone trying to farm the names for the items they were looking for. The named mobs were like mini-bosses considerably harder than the trash mobs. RNG on named spawn created a fun mechanic.
I never gamble, because I feel like my RNG sucks, so in my mind I'm just literally throwing my money away, and the same is true with loot boxes. I never never buy them. I might get some for free, but I never win anything good, so why would I ever pay money?
Games like BDO that make me feel like I'm grinding against the wind because of RNG setbacks make me rage quit. I vehemently hate those mechanics.
Simple answer, RNG has no place in combat if you want it to be taken seriously (which I do). However, minor things like critical hits and minor heal procs are fine as they aren't impactful enough to single handedly change the outcome of the fight. Incoming/receiving CCs should NOT be determined by RNG. Blocks and dodges should not be determined by RNG on an all or nothing basis.
Non-combat:
Drops, encounters, and with some caveats upgrading can greatly benefit from RNG. I personally think rare drops are great. PvE encounters that include RNG can help to make them feel unique in multiple playthroughs. RNG in gear progression can be good if done right or really bad if done sub-optimally. I think a lot can be learned from black desert as they did many things really well and many things really poorly. I think having a non-RNG alternative for upgrades that is reasonable would be very well received.
Agreed here for non-combat RNG.
RNG is a double edged sword. It gives the hope that getting the item can be completed without an endless grind, but at the same time can turn into an endless grind.
A game should be fun, not feel like a second job or a chore where time is wasted for a grind. Having only RNG for loot drops can cause the player to get demoralized for having bad luck and having wasted time. Having only a token system creates a time lock behind the gear with no chance of excitement. Therefore, the ideal system would both reward luck and time invested paving towards a trackable goal.
For example, if rare item(s) does not drop, one of two (or both) trackable metrics should apply:
1. Progressive RNG: After each attempt, the drop chance for item should progressively increase up to 100% drop. If it drops sooner, excitement arises, but without a drop it still creates progress towards the goal. Time is never wasted. However, this progress needs to be visible for the player to track their progress towards said item. If the item can repeatedly drop, then the system can reset after each drop
2. Token System: Tokens drop which can be turned in for the player’s choice of specific items. This creates trackable progress. To encourage replay ability after achieving needed gear, adding in items like consumables, token exchanges, or other in game currencies will help.
Ultimately, combining both a progressive RNG and a Token System would create achievable satisfaction towards playing different sets of content. This will create measurable and trackable progress while using RNG in an exciting way. No system will ever be perfect, but a good game developer will create a system so players have fun and not time gate anyone behind a boring, repetitive grind.
Absolutely nothing that would lock you out of content or is involved in anything time-gated should be RNG. Lost Ark RNG on iLevel honing success/failure where iLevel decides what content you can access is an example of very bad RNG implementation. The type of stats that appear on crafted gear (especially on gear that has time-gated mats) also is just plain frustrating. Reasonable ranges on various stats on those crafted items I'm more okay with. But if you implement a luck system that impacts RNG success, please be upfront with the players on the details of this.
If doing a master looters situation give a window of 5-10 minutes for loot council to divide the gear then award all players that don't receive gear the currency. In my opinion if you are able to code a screen that shows all players name and class with drag and drop onto the player being awarded gear and then a confirm button this would be easiest for the system to know when to calculate who gets the tokens.
On random mobs and world bosses let those drops be completely rng and unbound so that they have value for the market and players that have them.
combat so when it comes to combat there are a bunch of different categories to be discussed.
General combat/mechanics of classes
So in my opinion class and skill design that revolves around procs(rng) to do dps feel very inconsistent and upsetting to play. You will do multiple runs and never get the same dps. I think having skill rotations are great. I think having an ability that just gives you a window that removes cooldown on a skill is fine and make it so by using another skill reduces the cooldown of the ability to remove that cooldown is more engaging and rewards proper play of character.
Pve
So I think mobs and bosses having rng attack patterns is great and keep people engaged. One thing that kinda kills WoW devs are 3rd party addons that let the players know exactly when in the fight the bosses will do a certain attack. I think one way to combat this is to make it so at certain time/hp percentage it rolls a dice on what move from the pool it uses. Sure you can keep certain moves consistant such as stacks that require the tanks to swap agro. I think damage ranges on abilities are okay I don't love the idea since you already have rng with crits just seems like a lot of rng.
Pvp
Rng sucks here don't use at all. Crit is only thing that is rng that would be okay. If there are damage ranges on skills make it so in pvp it takes the average damage of the range against players.
profession so rng on professions are fine just to feel like you are progressing the skill levels that the window gets smaller.
Gathering
Pretty obvious that there should be ranges on material pick up that get smaller as skill improves.
Refining
So I think when refining the material there for a more realistic feel rng on how much you get refined is also okay. So for example if you have 100 logs and you are refining to planks depending on skill level only lose between 1%-10% materials so you either end with 90 or 100 planks. Once you are a master of refining that material you will always get a perfect conversion.
Crafting
Rng on stat drops like craft with random attributes but would like a system to be able to change 1 stat on a piece of gear to a desired stat if it is above a certain quality level(like only on epic or higher) this way crafters or buyers can change a almost perfect piece of gear to a perfect piece.
spawn timers
I think all rares should have a spawn time window. Example would be you killed the rare then the next person has to wait between 10-25 minutes for it spawn this way in makes the wait more interesting for pvp to take place if wanting the loot. World bosses should be set on and X interval so that once killed it spawns every X interval (example 1 hour) I feel like World bosses aren't the place where you want people to fight amongst themselves but to rally together and fight requiring large groups 20+ to bring down.
All in all rng is fine but don't hold progression of character back too much or else people will feel left behind and frustrated.
I loved the fact that in Order and Chaos Online very few players ever got an opportunity to get a Legendary Weapon, and when you did it was a group effort that could take months. The pre-Legendary was an extremely rare drop - our Guild only ever got one, and even then it was only one of a dual wield pair.
You then had to accumulate Lava Cores - a very rare drop that your group-mates could defer to you, and when you had enough turn them in to an NPC for a Group Quest to take down a very tough Boss to get the catalyst. Some time after you turned that in there was a Ceremony for the whole server where you received your Legendary. An unforgettable experience.
The pre-Legendary was best-in-class and when upgraded to Legendary was improved enough to give you a further edge. But nothing OP. No-one complained that they were wielded in PvP; everyone was hoping to get their own.
The educated randomness would be based on data, such as, if it's 40C outside and 2 seconds later it's snowing, is not a good random thing to happen. Dungeons and bosses would be amazing if they were based on machine learning (i.e. the NPCs learn as you fight them and no fight will ever be the same). Even wolves, dogs, bears, whatever if that's in the game would react slightly different. This would immensely up the immersion factor and I haven't seen any game do it to date.. Anyway I digress, that's another subject.
Randomness for progression is by far the absolute worst thing for me, personally, or any type of system where your progress depends on luck. What happens because of this system is that the people who play 16 hours a day and spend tons of money on the game actually get the gear (i.e. BDO and others like it). But the majority of the players like myself who cannot play 16 hrs a day, can't even play the game because of this. The world is different now, 10-20 yrs ago it was very rare to find players playing 16+ hrs a day and now it's very common due to streaming and a lot of other factors.
So, the progression system needs to allow casual players to progress at the same speed as those 16 hr a day players, or at the least close the gap .. so they play a lot more and can get 5-10% stronger but not 1000%. So you wonder what this has to do with RNG? Any type of game that depends on random drops or random chances to upgrade gear like +8 +10 +16 etc and it's a 10% chance and you need to farm something to try again or repair it.. well, the players that play the most will get more chances to try because they keep farming the items over and over and the casual player will try once a week and keep failing and end up quitting because they farm 5-6 hrs a week and get absolutely nowhere (big waste of time for nothing).
Personally I like to log in and play the game, not grinding/farming. Most of MMO to me interaction with other players.
RNG has its place because it's really nice to randomly have something happen like a good loot drop or whatever but that can't be the only system. I'm an engineer (for work) and have thought up many different ways of doing this.
So
RNG for gear progression = not really, but sometimes, educated randomness but not required (this is so people get surprises sometimes but not a necessity) -- educated meaning that if a player doesn't get something for a while, it keeps track of this (i don't really like the pity token idea, iId rather the system keep track of the 'luck' factor and rebalance it in real time to keep progression more equalized) -- so there could be a system where someone could use RNG to try and progress and another where they could guarantee it, depending on the player's preference they could go either way. I prefer a game where gear progression isn't the main goal of the game.. Learning your character and getting good at the game and the mechanics and the world is more important. Being able to min/max gear with your abilitiy trees and modifiers is also key (i.e. things like having points into regen mana in your tree, but then you get a piece of gear that regens mana so you can move those points in the tree to something else, but that piece of gear does less dmg so it's a tradeoff.. these kind of tweaks to playstyle of the players preference rather than locking them into one way of doing it)
RNG for mechanics = yes and no! I know some people don't like it, but it should be machine learning/AI not 100% random.. every fight different (spawn an instance on some AI accelerator servers every time a group engages a boss or some sort of intelligent mob) or even have employees of the company play the boss
RNG for crafting = sure, but not totally.. surprises here and there like a crit is fine but not depend on it
RNG for loot from mobs = not really.. this should be somewhat AI also, depending on what the loot is
RNG for the world = again, ML or AI stuff where it doesn't do things that wouldn't normally happen in a world. Like if it rains a lot, the lakes should fill up , if it doesn't they should go down a bit, etc. Animals could migrate around. It sucks in 2022 that MMOs still have the same mobs in the exact same locations all the time, when we have all this glorious AI/ML compute power to work with.
RNG for combat = as little as possible.. if there's a crit/block/parry system maybe a little there is ok but most of the time randomness is not good for combat especially pvp. I will agree that sometimes, every once in a while, it's hilarious when something happens that is random and that should happen occasionally (like a spell backfiring or randomly doing something crazy but very small chance). Keeping a lot of randomness out of combat so that when someone does something right it shows, or when someone messes up they know it rather than it be lucky random blocks or misses or whatever.
RNG for CC = no .. this can't, not even DR. The best CC system I've ever seen is one where you got hit by a CC and then you were immune to that particular CC for a while but not other types, and most classes in the game only had one type, sometimes 2, so no single person could CC , but a well timed coordinated group could, but then the other group could cleanse it. No random cc's or hard lockdowns forever like most games these days seem to have, only a few second is ok. I'd prefer no CC in game at all just moves and counter-moves like dodges, blocks, pulls, pushes, maybe an interrupt but mostly instantaneous stuff where you never lose ability to control yourself for more than 0.2s or so.
I saw one post about glass cannons.. those are fine! as long as it's a tradeoff, they can do a ton of dmg but will die super fast if they get hit..(i.e. "I know if I get to you, you are dead; I know if you hit me it's going to hurt" ).. If there's no tradeoff then it's broken. This does make a lot of variety in pvp and even pve sometimes.
Wow I posted a lot more than just RNG stuff, oops
LOOT
RNG is fine on most MOBs/NPCs. But one thing that I find very important is logical loot drops. They give the world a more realistic and grounded feel, it gives the player a greater feeling of immersion.
(EG, Animals dropping materials that are part of them, teeth, fur, scales etc. give great immersion. Animals dropping Swords, Armour and Gold breaks immersion.)
Bosses and Important creatures having RNG loot tables can be ok if there is a system in place to give the player a variety on what drops for them. There is nothing worse than player killing the same Boss over and over to get a particular item, but it keeps dropping the same wrong item over and over.
DAMAGE
RNG is Player / NPC / MOB damage is fine as long as the range of RNG damage isn’t too big.
Critical Hit are a perfect example of Good RNG in combat, but like most things seeing Critical hits too often will loose their luster and become less special.
That's my take anyway 😊
Deterministic gear acquisition only. And please please please PLEASE P L E A S E no rolling of stats on gear.
I could imagine an enhancement system for gear that would have the RNG for those that want to risk enhancement with less resources to win big, but add another option to grind and pour more resources into enhancement to guarantee the upgrade for those that don't like RNG as much.
Also crafting and enchanting should not have RNG in term of stats, only maybe in term of their values. Like you can guarantee that sword will have a strength stat or even intelligence stat if you want, but the value of the stat ranges from min to max value for specific tier. Those values could then be adjusted based on crafting/enchanting level and quality of resources used and those quality resources would be RNG drops.
Don't have bosses spawn at a certain time but make them have a set cooldown period after which a time-window opens of 12-24hours(or longer). Say you kill a dragon worldboss like creature. Give him a 72h cooldown with a 24h window. That way people know the first 3 days after the kill he wont spawn, but he will spawn anywhere in the next 24h. that way you will have people fighting over the spawnlocation(also up for RNG) for a longer period of time instead of the last 5 minutes before a set spawntimer.
RNG on Enchanting should be challenging but not infuriating. Ofcourse the higher the itemlevel the harder it should become(Think higher level enchantment stones or higher grade). But it shouldn't feel like a total waste of time after spending lets say 1 week of gathering materials for it just to blow up in your face. I'd say never put the successrate at <50%. unless there are ways to add extra % via supplements or something.
Damage or combat can rely on RNG bigtime. Skills can have a percentage procrate on stuns, snares, blinds, fears. But it shouldn't be completely RNG. Some skills should have 100% on some effects while other skills shouldn't. This forces you to save skills over others.
What would work for me is that the more you proc something the less chance of proccing it has until your target dies/loses. That way in pvp you would theoretically not be able to RNG stunlock someone while the other person procs nothing.
Crafting RNG im all for. It shouldnt be easy to craft bis gear that is on par with the best you can drop from open world bosses. What could work is that if you fail to proc an item is that you can break it down for some materials that you can use in your next try. But it shouldnt be that if you have the materials for a bis item, you are guaranteed to get it. Aion had this system that was pretty good at this. If you wanted the best weapon version of a crafted weapon, you had to proc a normal into a noble, noble into heroic, heroic into fabled, and fabled into eternal. Now the procrate was about 25% for everything. So you end up making about 50-100 weapons to get the one you want. Takes effort and time. The thing they got wrong was that the only thing worth anything was the end result and the other weapons you made were pretty much worthless. You could break them down for enchantstones but that would almost never net you anything good.
RNG is good for an mmorpg, if done right.
I am a huge fan of old Lineage 2. Mobs had an exact loot table with percentage chances for each thing. I kinda liked that. You know what you where grinding for and how hard it would be to get.
Also the enchanting system. Have a couple of safe levels, and further on you fail you loose the item. Great economy sinkhole.
As long as this drives the economy and includes lower level players in the process so enchanting requires a wide range of resources, both endgame and low level.
And I think the best one is random item drop, if you die with karma on you. Like being a criminal, when you get killed you drop a random item from you.
I don't like them getting destroyed randomly. Dropping them for others to pick up is much more exciting and entices players to go after criminals.
Also crafting RNG could be nice if done properly. Like having a small chance to get +1 enchant from the get go.
And it would be cool if this RNG could be on a personal level. Like one player could add garlic to making a sword to have higher chances of a better result, while another has to add tomato sauce.
This way a crafter really needs to experiment and not just read an Internet guide.
RNG or Luck in Online Games is a good thing, it adds realism to the Game, because also RL does have the component of Luck in it. The hardest thing is the adjustment and occurrence of it inside the game and its systems. It should be there but it should not turn the Game into a Casino with tons of Slot Machines.
I did Experience a lot of games with RNG Systems in them some just had a small amount like for combat when to dodge, evade or critical hit others had it almost casino style with crafting and +sing, Procing of special stuff during crafting, gathering, improvement of gear and battle to name one that is known to Intrepid studios: Aion from NCSoft.
Where to use RNG and How much it should affect things is hard to tell, since what I have experienced from Alpha one were only Placeholder systems and so I don't know how exactly the crafting, combat and gear improvement as well gathering and dropping does work in Ashes. So to answer the 3 mentioned questions, I will need to expand into the specific systems to describe it as best I can.
To mention beforehand, I love besides MMO-RPG games as well as Survival games and Games with a learning by doing skills improvement system (which however is rare to find in RPG games).
Which systems do you feel utilize RNG the best?
Combat:
The Placeholder System in Alpha One showed a semi Tab Target system, where some attacks needed a target selected, some did go off in the view directions and others needed to mark a zone on the ground in a RTS optic to cast. Depending on the way of targeting the RNG factor should be different and maybe also add the possibility to use Tab Target skills without a selected target simply by only aiming, also the choice of View perspective from the player should have an effect on Skills and RNG. In a way that a 3 Person view may have less accuracy and less potential to do critical hits or inflict maximum skill dmg, ego perspective gives better view of direction and player may be able to target weak spots easier so they can do critical hits more frequently however the view perspective does also lead to a loss of vision of their surroundings, so that in team play a combination of both would be the best and that teamplay gets a boost depending on the players natural skill of collecting and sharing informations on the go. Also the HP of the target should affect the RNG of Damage inflicted on the Target the less the target has the higher the chance of High Dmg, but since by then targets often going berserk it will not get easier.
So depending on view perspective and if a Target is tabbed or not the RNG does boost up or get decreased. So that players that decide to give up view will gain a smaller range of RNG on their hits which leading to them dealing more often dealing max skill dmg and inflicting more often critical hits, tab target has the benefit of the aim assist and thru that the dmg RNG is the biggest ranging from the lowest possible to the highest incl crits, the marking on the ground skills also coming with a high RNG depending on how the skill does work, if it's a meteor showerd then it's RNG is High due to not knowing when and where on the marked area each meteor hits and depending on the movement of the mob or opposing player it can be critical maybe even do a CC effect or dealing allmost nothing cause the target is at the edge of the zone. Other aoes like an explosion or so also have RNG on them but with a smaller RNG range the closer to the center of the marked zone the higher the chance to deal maximum or critical damage to the target.
On Healingside the RNG isn't much present and effected on the Aiming itself it is more affected by the condition of the Targets health so that a heal may only heal its minimum to a slightly wounded player however if they are close to death it has a higher chance as well to be a Critical heal that does heal up a lot.
Skill dmg:
Skills should have a range of dmg that shows their RNG range but they also should have a learning by using component build into them so that this range gab getting smaller and thru that the RNG effect is weekend for example:
a skill does 50-100 Dmg if never used now you get 50 dmg out always and depending on RNG between 0-50 additional dmg. But now some time has passed and you used the skill and you got better in handling and maxed it out and now the same skill does 75-100 dmg so there is still rng to it but the rng range has gotten smaller. Shure this does benefit those that play a lot over those that don't use that much time or prefer to have Toons instead. But the topic is about RNG
Loot Drops:
Loot Drops RNG should be effected by several conditions that lead to the defeat of the Enemy, that also take account for the amount or time and player it took to kill the time of life of the mob and also if it did beat up its attackers or even wipe them.
Depending on that and the form it has taken (especially dungeons where the player amount inside does change the Boss HP and skills).
Also seasons should be in account for drop rng so that if you need the belly fat aof a bear then your luck is higher if you try to obtain it during winter rather than during sommer. but may result also in a different battle style cause in winter the bear is in its cave and so the space for combat is limited but since he was sleeping its movements may be a bit slower and its attack pattern different but maybe it hits more powerful and the thith space makes it harder to evade or dodge them than a fight in the open would be. and these conditions may also add rng to it.
On the looting RNG should also hit in place on ninja looting where someone loots that didn't kill it or helped in the process, so that those with the most kill counter % on them will have the highest RNG chance and if those are the ones looting first it may increase the loot in quality and quantity. so that if the player with 10% counter and the player with 2% both would loot the same mob at the same time the player with 10% may have a RNG range for loot quality and quantity from 5-10 the one with 2% only from 2-7 and the ninjalooter may only get a 0-5 range out of the mob.
Gathering:
Gathering RNG should be in place to reward dangers and competition So that resources that are rare or at dangerous places (Mob or environment) have a higher RNG chance to reward additional resources or even a rare item with them. This goes for all resources and also does the amount farmed in the area also affect the rng possibility of the farmable content. Farmed ressources on Private property however do not have RNG at all, they always give the same amount and have 0 chance to get special items from them.
Crafting:
Rng In crafting should be primarily in a way to have a chance to get a better quality product or increase the quantity of a craft, Failure are depressing in that matter however the Level of the craft skill could change that in the way that if you have just the level needed to craft a item then there is a chance of failure however the more level over the level needed to craft should erase that possibility of failure. On Maxed level crafts however there should not be a failure at all at best somewhat between 25-50 level over the needed craft level to erase the failure possibility and on the last crafts if for example the maximum level for crafting is 500 then crafts from level 450 upwords does not have a chance to fail at all.
Gear Improvements:
Adding Gems or +sing of Gear and Weapons need a RNG with a failure chance it should however be low the lower the +sing is. Gems should only fail to put in however maybe with a counter on them for trys to put them into gear also the possibility to remove them safely but decreasing the count on trys on them by 2 if they got put out and maybe some crafts to repair them a bit or craft them in lesser gems with full try crounter.
Where do you feel RNG does not belong?
Hard to tell, RNG does exist almost everywhere where players are involved, whether direct or indirect.
RNG should not take place in NPC Vendors Prices from Vendors should be not be effected direct by RNG however if they using the system of Request and supply then its is affected by RNG already thru the sells of players that gather resources and sell these and craft goods to them.
Fees and rents for Housing should not fall into RNG also stuff like death penalties and respawn place. These things should be ruled by systems that don't use RNG in them.
Rolling the dice is a Fully RNG mechanic however it should be ruled to lessen its RNG effect. so that the chance of rolling higher numbers getting bigger the more low numbers you rolled and vice versa the more high numbers the higher the chance for low ones.
Or systems where class gear and weapons have a higher chance to land in the hands of those in need over those without it but since Ashes doesn't have this classbound gear and weapon this is already.
For Ashes and RNG i hope there will be no Gatcha Games in the game something simular to what (Balde n Soul had in it)
What RNG-based systems or features have you enjoyed the most?
The excitement of a rare drop and the disappointment of the roll the dice on them only to get a low number.
The excitement of a rare find in gatherings and then the failure on the craft where this rare item was needed.
Regards Asraiel
To put it simply the tried and true method of boss loot, however it is also a balance of making sure that the loot that can drop off a boss is worth it, weather it be meaningful stats and effects or the piece itself having a larger role to play in the overall game, for example the corrupt ash bringer. When the gate is the boss to knockdown and the loot received is on a dice roll the enjoyment and excitement of getting rewarded is directly tied to the usefulness or prestige of what can be acquired.
Where do you feel RNG does not belong?
Crafting, but to an extent. By this I mean that when you craft an item and it has a chance of getting extra stats or a gem socket (broad examples) this can often make other things crafted to be considered useless as it didn't have that RNG bonus. However this can be rectified with have options to use rare materials to perfect that item being crafted, for example New World has this system and it is one of the best parts of said game. So while RNG can be present if there is no way around that system it will always feel bad without and broad bad luck protection can only help so much with various different systems depending on the construction of that square peg square hole.
What RNG-based systems or features have you enjoyed the most?
To the detriment of this posts integrity but as a broad comparison to other games (Destiny 2, WoW, New World ect) I believe Genshin Impacts systems of open world solo boss loot for upgrade materials, money, account xp and artifacts is the best on the market. Simply put you kill a certain boss as you are chasing a material needed to upgrade a character. Each boss (depending on world level diffulculty) will always give you a set amount of money, xp and upgrade materials, the RNG comes from bonus items that while not needed are helpful and feel like an added extra as nothing goes to waste. Randomized artifacts from sets have random bonuses but if you dislike that roll you can use it to level up an artifact you may like or simply destroy it for money. Elemental fragments also drop as character material and are relevant to the boss type itself, so while that may be random to a set extent all of it is useful, everything that drops is not just a drop without reason, dual purpose is the name of the game. These bosses are also not complete time wasters, for example in Destiny 2 you may have to go through a 10-20 minute strike to end up with blue glimmer fodder that only helps gain a resources that are so beyond farmable and accessible that its just pointless, ending up feeling like time wasted. These boss kills are often 5 mins or less (depending or optimization it can get crazy fast sub 10 seconds) and you know what you'll get to a certain extent, and everything can best also used to further your own player power. The downside to this system is the daily resin system but while related is more of a stopgap than anything and doesn't effect the loot rolls themselves.
It's always going to be a balance and the real foot in the door is knowing that the loot possible is worth chasing in any RNG system
The effort and skill comes in from the gathering of things.... what skill does it take to select a recipe? Rng need to be involved with the outcome of these recipes, and your "crafting dye" skill set will curve this rng. Thats where crafting skills come in...
I dislike RNG so much, that it is one of the few things that can make me leave a game (Aion was really, really bad. GW2 and BDO)
I am thinking about crafting/upgrading gear.
Shop boxes with random items, I don't care, I just do not buy them if they are RNG.
Loot drops have always been RNG and I have no problems with that. The same, many times, goes for gathering and fishing.
I mean its not fair that some has done something 100 or 1000 times has the same chance has some1 do it once and get the item. Dont know if its even possible to have personalized loot table like that. Maybe each character could chose 1 item on 1 boss/event/mob to have this mechanic apply to.
It will still be hard to get, but those who really put in the effort will have their chances improved over time and eventually get the the desired item.
I mean you could also just grind gold and purchase your desired item, for a 100% chance at getting it.......
> Which systems do you feel utilize RNG the best?
* When the damage of an attack/spell is random within a not very big range, I don't have a problem with that.
* For anything else, where I don't care that much about any single outcome. So if the result is not that important to me to begin with, or if I do way more attempts than required for a desired outcome anyway, then it's fine.
> Where do you feel RNG does not belong?
* For events that I actually care about, knowing that something can happen, but the probability is so low, that it basically means there's no point in even trying to force it to happen.
* E.g. if a boss drops a cool mount with a very low probability. Even if I want the mount, knowing that the chance is low, I probably won't even try to get it. Mainly because it's super boring to farm the same boss for tens/hundreds of attempts. I'd either feel that the game turned into a job or that I'm wasting my time on something that is not even fun for me (and games are supposed to be fun).
* So, for all the RNG where the outcome actually matters to me I want the game to be as upfront and as deterministic as possible. It doesn't mean that it should be easy to e.g. get the mount from the example above. But if I can see that I'm actually making progress towards my goal and if I'm not forced to repeat the same activity for an unreasonable amount of time, then it feels much better. A decent solution here could be some kind of currency that drops from many places. This way I'll know how far away I am and I'll be able to passively collect it while I'm doing different fun things in the game.
> What RNG-based systems or features have you enjoyed the most?
* I like when there's a finite amount of outcomes and each outcome cannot happen twice. E.g. if it's a random box with a cosmetic item, I never want to have duplicates, and I want to know that by opening enough of them, I'll get what I actually want (just to make sure, this should not be a loot box sold for real money, I'm just describing a generic system).
* When there's a boolean event (either happens or not), it feels good to know that after each failure the game increases the probability of success in the future.
* In some card games you can destroy unneeded cards, get currency for that and buy a card that you actually wanted. This way even if you opened a lot of packs and only got duplicates, it wasn't a complete waste.
* Also in many card games you're guaranteed to get at least one rare+ card in each pack, I also liked that.
The following, on the other hand, is an approach I would find most desireable: That way, you could get what your heart desires and it would depend on successful teamplay instead of RNG. Makes a high-difficulty encounter feel a lot more rewarding.
There is nothing more frustrating than feeling like you have grinded certain content without ever getting any of the rewards you were after.
Do people seriously still play games where drops don't go to the whole party in the sort of situation I was describing?
I didn't realize that I needed to clarify that I was referring to 'Party Loot drops', my bad.
Is it acceptable to you if it's based on 'The DPS do the correct damage and then everyone gets to roll on the drops'?
I really wasn't imagining it any other way.
Also no, it isn't even damage done, it's based on damage TYPE done, yes. So there is a situation in which 'I don't have a Fighter in my group so we can't focus on getting these Scalerunner tails'. But given Ashes' philosophy, I would have assumed that was fine.