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Dev Discussion #41 - RNG

VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
edited June 2022 in General Discussion

Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.

Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!

Dev Discussion - RNG
Which systems do you feel utilize RNG the best? Where do you feel RNG does not belong? What RNG-based systems or features have you enjoyed the most?

Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion topic regarding Time Dedication!


  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    My main opinions on this can be found here in my discussion of why Drops should be based on 'in battle RNG' instead of post-battle RNG, so that can be thrown directly into the analytics or data pile.

    I also dislike RNG determining whether or not a status or CC effect is applied in a binary way and would prefer RNG to always be a matter of degrees, across all systems other than 'hit or not hit'. Even in Action mode (if that's being done in that way).

    Lots of extensive discussion about that was probably in one of the bigger threads from last year.

    RNG on Enhancing/Enchanting was covered in previous situations.

    I'll accept and support RNG in mob behaviour, particularly in battle, anytime.

    I honestly can't think of other situations in which RNG comes up, probably because I don't play games with a lot of it, for very long, so I will probably have more to say when other people post and remind me of all the other places that RNG can be applied poorly that I disagree with.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    I think dmg rng (within limits of course) is fine and could somewhat prevent dps toxicity.

    Imo overenchantment rng is fine because it brings high risk to a high reward.

    Drop rng is amazing. Have mobs drop 6 different things with each thing being valuable, but with one or two of them dropping very rare and being very valuable because of that.

    Boss respawn timer rng is great (again, within limits). Make people wait for it to spawn within some time period, which makes people pvp for the respawn spot in order not to miss the farm itself.

    Those are the obvious ones that I like and could remember right now.

    The main one I dislike is probably quest drop rng. You can tell me to kill 10k mobs and I'll be fine with it, but only if each mob drops the quest item.
  • LashingLashing Member
    edited May 2022
    I am generally in favor of RNG in games. I fundamentally believe a healthy amount of RNG across gameplay systems is good for replay value. This does not mean I want RNG to be over used or be excessively unfair to the player. I feel a proper amount of RNG is a number that can be mitigated with player actions, skill, or tactics. This can be something as simple as a stat that increases your crit chance or something more complex like hitting an enemy in the back reduces their chance for them to passively mitigate your attack.

    I enjoy the aspect of High highs and Low lows that RNG can provide. A good example of a game that does this really well is Darkest Dungeon. Every encounter is a rollercoaster of emotions. Getting a clutch crit in that game feels amazing. At the same time an enemy dodging can ruin the moment. The main factor here is the RNG never feels unfair. You know your chances and you have to weigh them to make a decision. You can use gear or buffs to greatly increase your chance to get good RNG. This means as a direct result of the player's choice they can increase the amount of High moments in their general gameplay. The low moments are always there to keep you on your toes though. Without them success becomes meaningless fairly quickly. That rolls the point around to giving the game replay value. Often people will tell you they hate RNG in games but I often find it is because they are not looking at all the ways RNG actually affects a game. Gear having a 100% drop rate, A monster always doing the same attacks in the same order, and a dungeon always having the same mobs in the same order does not really lend itself to a lot of replay value. Once a player is skilled enough to beat something without any form of RNG it becomes a solved problem. Without a new problem to solve you will lose people. It takes a very specific type of person to want to do 3 times 7 for the rest of their lives.

    Games are meant to be beaten. If you make the average encounter with a monster into a solved equation you are essentially removing engagement with that monster. The player would know that they will win with 100% certainty. This removes the core tenant of risk and reward from Pve. Never knowing if a mob will crit you twice in a row and bring you to half health adds a small amount of replay value to encountering the same mob type more than once. It does not need to be enough to outright kill the player without them being able to react but it will make someone question if pulling 2 mobs at the same time is a good idea.

    RNG in a damage rotation - For me personally I greatly prefer a damage rotation with a decent amount of procs and random effects that can happen. Normally with this type of rotation it will always even out to be about the same depending on encounter duration so I am never worried about randomly getting unlucky and dealing low damage. Procs keep me engaged with what I am doing far more than perfectly hitting buttons in the exact right order over and over. I figured out this is how I feel when I was trying out FF14. I was just generally bored while fighting things in the game and I was on the verge of quitting until I tried out Dancer. It is the more RNG heavy class in the game. I found myself significantly more engaged with the basic mob encounters because I could think about optimally using my procs instead of going on auto pilot.

    RNG for defensive stats - I typically find that RNG for defense is fine as long as it comes with non-RNG stats. Defenses should come in layers and RNG is part of that for me. I like the aspect of min/maxing defensive layers based on what you are encountering. In the end I think this is slightly less important than RNG for offensive stats to keep the game fresh for longer. As long as Defense is actually a choice we get to make I will be happy.

    RNG for dungeons and PvE - I feel like this is probably the absolute best way to utilize heavy RNG. If you can manage to make a dungeon that never feels the exact same when you walk in you create the most replay value for that content. Replay value is something you have to consider for MMOs more so than other games so a healthy amount of RNG will help. The base idea would be to create parameters that a specific dungeon always follows and use randomness that still fits in those parameters. I hope Ashes can utilize the event system to make dungeons interesting almost every time you venture in. Even small changes can make a huge difference here.

    RNG in PvP - I do not mind RNG in PvP as much as some other people might. I feel Ashes PvP is going to be settled a lot of the times before combat even starts Via buffs/gear/class differences. RNG could help prevent a situation where you know that you are going to lose with 100% certainty. In the end I want decent PvE combat so if that involved a lot of RNG so be it for PvP. The most skilled player will succeed more often in the end.
  • ElwendryllElwendryll Member
    edited May 2022
    In general I like RNG, but when it's not layered.

    I play a lot of MMOs. I play gacha games. RNG makes for very memorable experiences, shiny pokémons are a perfect example.

    What does feel very bad is when items are subjected to many layers of RNG. (Anyone who farmed artifacts on Genshin impact will know exactly what kind of pain I'm talking about).

    Let's say you have a very rare item with a 0.01% drop rate. Some people will farm relentlessly, others will not actively try to get it, but just keep in mind the item could drop. And if it does drop, it's extremely satisfying. Like getting a shiny pokemon! (It's the same odds after all :p).

    Now let's say a boss has 10% chance to drop a bag. This bag has 10% chance to drop a pouch. This pouch has 10% chance to drop an enveloppe. And in that envelope you have 10% chance to find a coupon that gives you a very valuable item.

    You effectively still have 0.01% chance of getting the item. Except that you will have a much more miserable experience in the whole process.

    I would say, do not hesitate to put RNG everywhere, especially in term of encounter mechanics, but please be careful with stacking layers of RNG, because this is especially frustrating.
  • VissoxVissox Member
    Crit chance/block/dodge/parry: YES
    Rare loot: YES
    Selective Quests (taregosa staff, chosen adventurer, A Dull and Flat Elven Blade) : YES
    Rare mob spawn locations: YES

    Broken from crafting/crafting failed: NO
    Random event location spawning, (tooki island): NO
    Quest Drops : NO/Higher drop chance
    Random enchants: NO
    Uncounterable raid mechanics, do everything right and still wipe to RNG: NO
    Chance to gain X stat gear: NO (weapon procs OK, like "hurls a firey ball" as its akin to crit.)
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2022
    RNG has a place in the game for sure. For example, it adds that uncertainty to combat and loot drops that I think is necessary for variety and fun, so it isn't all just a simple, boring mathematical equation.

    I also think players should be able to influence the RNG is almost all cases, by spending resources or time, or simply with character development choices and player skill. I'll give some examples below.

    Since this game isn't an FPS but an RPG, character skills have to matter a lot, not just player skills. RNG is one way to add that variation. Hits and misses, resisting a CC, blocking/parrying. All that should be passively present in an RPG, with some RNG involved. The character build and gearing choices needs to allow players to affect the RNG in the direction they want. Player skill should affect the RNG as well, with a well timed dodge or active block increasing chances to avoid damage or CC dramatically.

    Loot Drops
    I think the current plans for dungeon/raid bosses mirror this philosophy too. The faster the players clear bosses, the better loot drops they get by affecting both the drop chance and the entire loot table itself. This rewards both the time and resources players put into leveling and gearing their characters, and it rewards player skill by further increasing loot drops based on how well/quickly they can kill the bosses. Bosses that also scale in difficulty based on the speed with which the previous boss was killed.

    Higher gathering skill should equate to better chance of rare materials dropping, like rare gems from mines or rare seeds from plants. Or in the case of taming, higher chance of better genes/base stats of the creature that is tamed. Higher quality gathering tools should also affect the RNG of rare drops.

    Again, higher skill should equal higher chance of better output. Animal Husbandry is a big one here, where player skill should increase the chance of a better breeding result. The base material quality should also matter. For animal husbandry that is easy: The better the genes of the animals you breed, the better the potential outcome. Or chance of a really good outcome at least.

    For other processing paths, like smelting, there might not be a focus on RNG, but more a focus on optimizing output efficiency. For example, time and resources put into upgrading a smelter results in reduced time to create ingots. In an interview Steven said the highest tier materials could take days to process, but with a lvl 3 processing station that time could be reduced by over 50%. My guess is the relevant processing skill is also a factor. My hope is we end up getting some RNG in the outcome of smelting, like rare by-products or higher grade ingots.

    I made a thread a while ago, where I suggested more to processing than simply loading in gathered material and waiting for a predetermined output.

    To my knowledge, they don't plan to have RNG in crafting, at least in the outcome of the product. It's all recipe based. I can potentially see them adding a chance get some materials refunded upon crafting.

    I've already said my piece on enchanting in the Let's Talk Enchanting thread, but to sum up the gist of it, I am ok with some RNG in enchanting, but never for an outcome that decreases character progress. This means no deleveling or reset of enchantment progress ever, not even when over-enchanting. If a bad RNG roll causes me to lose enchanting materials and having to repair the item, that is something I can live with.

    Specifically with regards to the RNG aspect of enchanting, again, player agency MUST be there. Player or character skills, time and/or resources should greatly affect any RNG in the system.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I don't think RNG belongs in hard CC when it comes to a binary 'hit or miss'. It's a 'lose a turn' button and takes away from the ability to prepare and strategize. I therefore think hard CC and RNG should be more about 'duration' and whether the max or min duration occurs, and to also implement 'resist' options to all classes in order to increase the tactical interplay while keeping the 'adaptability' and 'thrill risk' that some people like rng in hard cc for.

    CC Is always a risk reward option, when built properly. You risk doing less damage now, to affect the flow of the fight and 'hopefully' get more damage or take less damage later. Not only that binary hit or miss is difficult to balance on a gear level. I'd rather not 'stun' and 'anti stun' be the be all end all meta, but that's what it becomes in almost all games that have such gear, and stun mechanics.

    I highly recommend the team go through these threads the community has already had a large discussion on this particular topic.:

    As for RNG in other areas I dislike: crafting failure (I preffer crafting have mostly skill based systems with some room for rng for high quality results), gear breakage rate, experience point gain, and ability activation (no fizzles! accuracy missing is fine, but randomly punishing a player via longer cool downs or damage for just trying to use their ability is an unacceptable mechanic.)

    Areas I like RNG: encounter tables for gathering (especially if you can influence the rng somewhat through your skill), RNG in mob ai, and RNG in accuracy (I am technically fine with this, just don't make accuracy a gear choice), Tavern Games,
    🔦🔱⚔️Selling pro pain and pro pain accessories. ⚔️🔱🔦
  • The best application of RNG would have to be mini-games such as gambling and TCG card-draws; situations where you would - figuratively speaking, of course - encounter it IRL.

    When it comes to systems such as over-enchanting, RNG should be able to be augmented by gear, potions, buffs, etc. That is to say that *IF* it's in a system like over-enchanting, then you should be able to stack the odds more in your favor.

  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited May 2022
    RNG is exciting in instances that change monster spawn rates or the quality of them.

    When it came to taming on Ultima Online, it was addictive to find strong or specific high stats for a long term pet.

    Item drops that have the potential for added bonuses through RNG make hunting less boring!
  • DracobringerDracobringer Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    For cosmetic related items, what is everyone's thoughts on having RNG protection? Like say, you're killing a boss to get a specific cosmetic related drop, and the drop rate is 1/100. Since those are just the odds that it should drop in one out of every one hundred runs, it's not guaranteed to. I've personally experienced this numerous times in WoW where I should have gotten something to drop long before it actually does. What does everyone think about a system where if something cosmetic related doesn't drop, you slowly increment a "protection" where your odds slowly go up of getting it to drop until it does, but you won't get the same kind of protection again for the same item.
  • StretchStretch Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I only really like RNG when you have a base and it gives you a chance of something good happening but nothing negative.

    If we break it down into PvE elements:
    I like it when I might be gathering and a RNG proc pops that may gave me a chance at getting more materials / higher grade materials.

    Similarly, with processing, it’s always nice that you may have a % chance for your processing be mor efficient and have a chance to either not use up the materials being processed OR reduced (so if its 2 wood = 1 plank, a proc could make it so I was efficient in processing and it only used 1 wood = 1 plank)

    I think this can be iffy. It always sucks when you farm materials, go to make something and the crafting fails. Its so discouraging. As for the stats on the gear, I don’t think that should be RNG. A way better way would be that the gear on the armour would be decided on the proficiency of the person crafting it. I feel that would give enough stat diversity to not need RNG in crafting.

    Then if we look at other areas such as:

    I don’t mind damage ranges with the actual number in the range being RNG

    Loot Drops
    I think its needed to make the game enjoyable. If there was no RNG then everyone would just get their stuff first go and PvE content would be dead. I always liked the idea of RNG & a base loot increase. For example, if I kill a boss and nothing drops for me, my drop rate might get increased by a small amount. Say 0.1%. That is then added to the RNG the next time I fight a boss. If still no loot, it will increase by another 0.1% etc. Then when something finally drops, it consumes my loot roll and I’ll lose any added bonus (so in my example, my 0.2% would go back down to 0 if I get loot)

    I hate when stuff like enchanting is RNG based. Like I mentioned up above, its just so discouraging to gather materials, try to enchant and its low or lower than expected due to RNG.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    For cosmetic related items, what is everyone's thoughts on having RNG protection? Like say, you're killing a boss to get a specific cosmetic related drop, and the drop rate is 1/100. Since those are just the odds that it should drop in one out of every one hundred runs, it's not guaranteed to. I've personally experienced this numerous times in WoW where I should have gotten something to drop long before it actually does. What does everyone think about a system where if something cosmetic related doesn't drop, you slowly increment a "protection" where your odds slowly go up of getting it to drop until it does, but you won't get the same kind of protection again for the same item.

    I don't care about those types of system. I don't mind them, but for a lot of people and in a lot of situations, they don't help as much as 'having some additional direct control'. If the droprate is low enough to start, it causes an increase in player dissatisfaction because RNG is strange and streaky.

    Without going into a bunch of statistics, I'll repeat what I always say.

    "If you tell 1000 people to flip a coin ten times, the chances of one of those people getting all Heads or all Tails is 1 in 1000."

    And the 'theory' you can draw out from that...
    "It is not extremely unlikely for one person to 'fail' every time at a 50/50 drop, 10x. It is also not extremely unlikely for a different person to get the drop 10 straight times."

    MMOs always operate on the 'thousands of players' scale.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
  • Which systems do you feel utilize RNG the best?

    loot systems that have pity timers on players. Hard to get loot is fine, but when a dev wants to put an item in at 1% it can feel very defeating and unfun knowing you may never get the item because you are unlucky and waste hours of your life and never have it drop. In this scenario I either quit trying for the item completly after a month of dedicated grind or if i am lucky I never come back to the content because i squeezed every ounce of fun out of it because of the frustration of having to do it so many times in a row with no end in sight. And the feeling I get Isn't joy from getting it. It's Relief.

    Games usually have the pity timer dressed up as a dungeon token of some kind where you can go to a npc and buy the item. Ff14 does this with some of its mounts despite the fact the bosses drop the mounts. Monster Hunter World did it with Gems at the Grandma Melder and even had a steam engine lootbox but instead of real life money you bet mining coal you found in zones. Even the steam engine had a pity timer.

    Knowing that there are other avenues to reaching your goal gives the players hope and takes the edge off so no matter how many times you do the content you can focus on having fun since you know you will get where you want to be eventually.

    And you can still feel like you earned the item at the end of the day because you put the work in.

    Where do you feel RNG does not belong?

    Crafting items of higher level where high end materials are harder to get. It makes sense at low level stages to have things turn into garbage because your new or if the items you are risking are very easy and farmable to get. But if it feels like a punishment and makes you feel like a failure when the items are hard to get and all your hard work turns to garbage. Having to keep pulling yourself up just to fail again is not a fun game. If the game is a second job and unfun because of RNG why play? Challenge is only fun if your skill is what determines your success. Being better at the game and figuring out mechanics is fun. Higher stats and RNG isn't something that matters to me. I can't see higher stats and RNG on my screen while I'm fighting. Or doing jump puzzles. Or playing mini games.

    What RNG-based systems or features have you enjoyed the most?
    Card games (player determine whats in their decks)
    slot machines (like in the example)
    chocobo racing (Golden saucer is awesome)
    jump puzzles (Moving platforms, lazer beams, falling platforms, colored tiles)
    rare animal spawns (If it wasn't for Cash Shop ruining Dragon's Prophet I would still be playing it also did gliding mounts really well look into that)

    thats all I can think of for now.
  • TyranthraxusTyranthraxus Member
    edited May 2022
    For cosmetic related items, what is everyone's thoughts on having RNG protection? Like say, you're killing a boss to get a specific cosmetic related drop, and the drop rate is 1/100. Since those are just the odds that it should drop in one out of every one hundred runs, it's not guaranteed to. I've personally experienced this numerous times in WoW where I should have gotten something to drop long before it actually does. What does everyone think about a system where if something cosmetic related doesn't drop, you slowly increment a "protection" where your odds slowly go up of getting it to drop until it does, but you won't get the same kind of protection again for the same item.

    I greatly enjoy the notion - but feel it would be best implemented as an "unspoken" element of the game; If players expect it, there'll be no end of bitchin' about it on the ol' forums, when it still doesn't drop fast enough, for people.

    To sum up: /Support, but don't tell anyone it's in....

  • WhiskyWhisky Member
    edited May 2022
    In general, I am not a fan of RNG. Having said that, if it is going to be in game at any point I have some thoughts.

    For drops - Make it apply to the group/person that was at the encounter. Example, a group of nothing but light armor users takes down a boss (lets not discuss group comp at this point) and the boss drops all heavy armor, I feel that is a waste of my time. Have the drops RNG from a table that pertains to the group/person involved in the encounter.

    Combat - (PvX) CC's should not be pure RNG, but something like a slider? A CC should hit but maybe on a roll of 1 it's a minor inconvenience and not really going to affect your next move (maybe a slight disadvantage to hit) where as a 20 would mean full CC which becomes a very concerning state to the subject of the CC. Same with all systems. Although, it sucks to roll a critical hit, to roll a 2 on damage, I would like to see a crit guarantee big numbers.

    Regardless of the system to which RNG is assigned, I would hope that gear and skills can help tip the RNG into the players favor.
  • attackoattacko Member
    edited May 2022
    RNG should never be the deciding factor in a player's progress at end game.
    RNG is awesome in most aspects of a game in forms of farming and unskilled achievement related cosmetics, but once a player is progressed into the game it shouldn't affect their gear at all, that should be difficulty and achievement related, like killing a hard boss, or kicking ass in pvp.

    The worst feeling in the world is when you are thousands of hours into a game and you still have to roll the dice just to get to bis. RNG including like marginally altered or slightly horizontal alternatives for non competitive players is cool and helps bridge the gap for players who feel left in the dust with no chance, but it should never be the driving force for gearing.

    Here's an example, in Elder Scrolls Online, during the release of Maw of Lorkhaj, the new raid with the hardest difficulties, all the best gear was crafted or dropped from overland mobs, and even though I was in the guild who completed this on Hardmode before anyone in North America, the only real reward was a title and a skin, completely cosmetic, no relevant gear.

    Nobody was mad that overland gear was good, but universally we were all disappointed that there wasn't that "Thunderfury-esque" drop to strive for, even if it was less than a tenth of a percent better than overland, or even anything that dropped that could compete with crafted or overland sets!

    Another example I can give you is in New World. Besides several very rare examples like the Lazarus Bow, end game gearing in New World is 100% RNG crafting, that is absolutely RMT as a result, and causes a massive disparity between players who own companies or whale G2G, and regular players.

    Another example I can give you is Lost Ark, another extremely polarizing game. I can say that I personally quit in T3 when I felt completely trolled by an RNG upgrading system while grinding to 1370, me, and all my friends, all quit within two months.

    The best system I have personally seen is what we got with Elden Ring. It was simple, you kill the Boss, you get the sword, and the Boss was hard, but man, you knew when you killed it, you got the sword. Personally, that was the most rewarding, least toxic system I have ever seen in an RPG. Even if you couldn't kill a boss for whatever reason, there are tons of examples of people skipping around the map finding bis or similarly useful alternatives. Sure, it's an mmo clawing for replayability, maybe you don't want people to get stuff this fast, but man, is it awful when you are rolling the dice with honing stones!
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited May 2022

    1) Mob drops. Low chance for whole items.
    Medium chance for parts mats
    High chance for basic materials
    (Wouldnt want to see L2s extremelly low chances again.)

    2) Animal breeding. It will give a great boost to the importance to the people that like this activity. Will also be a great gold sink for those looking for the animals with the best stats.

    3) Enchanting +1 ++++. Nuf said.

    4) Exploration. Go full RNG with secret locations, rich treasure chests and mobs giving good exp. No better place to apply rng. It will make the game come alive, instead of the scripted experience we get from todays mmos and the constant surprise factor destruction by youtubers and streamers.

    Does NOT belong:

    1) Combat. Critical rate should be locked behind certain archetypes and weapons and their abilities.
    Applying status effect should be determined by the targets resistance to let's say fear, or stun, or poison and the casters ability potency. In the case of equality, the duretion of the effect should be short.
    Passive dodge chance. Terrible.

    2) Gear stats added by player before or after craft. I hate this the most. It affects class balance both in PvP and PvE. And balance is already a very difficult task. I hope the Devs do themselves a favour and dont add anything rng related to crafting, empowering enhancing augmenting etc etc etc when it comes to gear items.
    Crafters will have a secure revenue. Mastercrafters should be the ones to unlock 100% of an items power. But no luck. It hurts balance.
    Balance over cheap and fleeting excitement of the type "oooohhhh my sword can send lightning bolts. That's a 1 in a million crafts. Pure luck!"

    3) Quests. Rng doesnt make quests hard. Hard is good. It just makes them annoying. Nuf said.

    RNG should not be used to "trick" players into doing things. It should be there to simulate real life. In real life there are laws of physics. In real life there is also the unknown and unexpected factor within each human. This is where rng should be used. To simulate discovery.

  • Kiwi_Kiwi_ Member
    tough question
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited May 2022
    I hope that people will learn in these official discussions to present their positions and leave it up to the devs to use them, instead of finding faults with other peoples opinions, leading to endless pages of quoting and replying. Pages that most people will just skip, since they are basically 2-3 people arguing between themselves.

    Just focus on presenting clearly your ideas.
  • SnowElfSnowElf Member
    edited May 2022
    Q: Which systems do you feel utilize RNG the best?
    A: Items that are not soulbound to your character are some of the best situations to employ RNG. This allows players to still obtain their desired item from other players if needed, potentially stimulating the market in the process. RNG in crafting is a bit of touch and go, but RNG is gathering materials is better. Small percent chances to obtain resources from a crafting node that is one tier higher than the node you're farming is good RNG placement. Small percent chances to craft [2] of an item instead of [1] is good RNG placement.

    Q: Where do you feel RNG does not belong?
    A: RNG does -not- belong in Loot Box purchases with in game or real-life currency, it also does not belong (or should be limited moderately) in stat-progression, set bonus gear, or any other types of systems in place where a meta may be attainable. When you plant RNG into gear which dictates your overall performance, the game becomes entirely RNG for optimal gameplay. EXAMPLE: Final Fantasy Record Keeper's entirely RNG based with looting end-game gear. Certain weapon attributes make or break certain fights. This system pillages onto the playerbase and encourages people to keep spending excessive amounts of money to obtain the gear they want. This is not good RNG placement at all, and gacha games have been banned in some countries because of it. Don't do it, it's bad business practice.

    Q: What RNG-based systems or features have you enjoyed the most?
    A: RNG is fun to enjoy from content which isn't entirely endgame, but close and still challenging. A prime example would be boss fights in dungeons. You're already looking at a random drop chance from the boss, then also a chance another party member can obtain the loot instead of you. It's important to limit the amount of RNG circles one has to jump through to obtain what they want. The more hoops, the more unlikely the acquisition.

    A really great RNG concept is including a process of elimination through programming properly. For example, say that there is a specific treasure chest at the end of a dungeon which drops [5] unique items which that sole chest will ever have, and you can loot that chest once a day after the dungeon. Every time you loot that chest, you'll be given one unique item, and by the next time you loot it, it'll always be a different item you've yet to obtain. The process repeats until you've obtained all of the items the chest has to offer, and then after any consecutive chest looting thereafter, it's just completely RNG to what unique item you obtain again.

    Also, a good system to ensure you obtain the RNG gear/item you desire is to place an in-game currency that accrues over time as you strive for that piece. For example, mount tokens. If said boss does not drop mount, boss gives a token instead. Upon the acquisition of x amount of tokens, npc sells the mount to you instead. But be careful, too many in game currencies can get messy!
    I am obsessed with anything magic.

  • VoeltzVoeltz Member
    edited May 2022
    RNG can help keep things interesting in many aspects of a game, but you need to be careful not to go overboard. Too much or unnecessary RNG can be very frustrating to deal with as a player and takes the fun out of the game. Examples of this would be completely random spawn locations for mobs, low drop rate quest items, or random loot rolls (non contribution based).

    In PvP the only place this belongs are stats abilities or effects that can be changed by the player such as %Crit chance, dodge, parry, block, evade, passive abilities on high level gear with small %procs. Even then I would prefer special item procs that go off after a set x amount of times as it is more balanced in a combat setting and can be better utilized by players.

    In PvE, RNG can be used in a positive way by changing the AIs behavior and use of attacks with each encounter. PvE is boring in most games because it is easy, tedious and predictable. If there is some level of randomness In AI behavior and timing, it will create a more engaging and challenging experience. As a player you should not be able to see an AIs ability coming from a mile away unless it is very powerful.
    It can also be used to alter the gear sets and appearances of specific types of AI. Maybe one bandit has an axe and shield while another has a bow. Same enemy type, with varying appearance, items and abilities that fit their character. However, when it comes to high level bosses I would limit this to appearance and timing. Rare boss or mob spawns are also a plus. I think all of this would go a long way for replay-ability.

    As for crafting and gathering, I really like aspects of Albion Online's system, which also happens to have a player driven economy like Ashes will. When mining for example, you have a small percent chance of acquiring gemstones. When crafting items, you have a % chance to create a higher quality 1-5 item that decreases gradually based on each level of quality and increases as you level up that profession. This makes it rewarding to be a specialist. I would much rather see a quality RNG element than one that outright "fails" and wastes all my hard earned materials or money. Imagine trying to enchant a high level weapon that took you forever to get but it fails, destroys the item and wastes the crafting mats! That would be infuriating! I would also like to see some RNG for resource locations within zones that require players to search for them instead of just autopiloting to their well known location. Common resources should be abundant depending on the region, but uncommon and rare resources should be scarce and not always easy to get to. Refining materials in my opinion doesn't need an RNG component combined with other factors. Gathering and refining speeds could be increased based on level instead. Stats on gear is another thing that shouldn't be RNG but left for the player decide.

    Another thing I would like to add that someone brought up is wagering or gambling with in game currency. In Albion online, you are able to challenge other players to a duel and wager any amount of money you wish. I have never seen any other game with this feature and thought it was a very cool and creative idea. I would also like to see other forms of gambling like betting on tavern/mini games, horse racing and arena style matches. This creates a fun environment for people to mess around or take a break from whatever they're doing while not being that serious.

  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2022
    I like rng in over enchanting, making it break your gear as gear sink is extremely important - but only if it's just 1 or 2 extra levels on top of the normal enchanting without rng and risk to brake gear

    I also like rng when it comes to legendary uniques/mats or eggs for mounts, things that have a 0.1% drop chance and a server would only have a limited amount
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  • zarzookzarzook Member

    "Overenchantment" doesn't exist. If you can get stronger by enchanting your gear then thats what everyone will have to do, not just "players who risk a lot to get high rewards". Everyone will have to enchant if it is in the game. Personally, I flinch every time i see a +[number] next to a gear name in every mmo. RNG gear upgrading is horrible by design, if there is a chance that someone can fail 20 times in a row with upgrading a gear that is supposed to have a 50% success rate, they WILL fail 20 times, and someone on the other end will upgrade their gear with 0.5% success rate 5 times in a row. It is simply unfair and as someone who always gets unlucky and falls behind his friends despite grinding the most, I wouldn't like it to be a part of Ashes. Make all upgrading 100% success but they need insane amount of materials, and then the strongest players will be who grind the most.

    Loot drop

    While I strongly dislike RNG in gear upgrading, I think if RNG is not present in enchantment, it probably has to be in drops. I don't mind when something is hard to get in mmos because of low drop rate. If I can grind for it 24/7 and its not locked to for example a place that is only open 1 day of the week, or to a boss that only spawns 3 times per week, then its okay for me. Strongly preferred to gear upgrade RNG.


    RNG in combat is whatever, it really doesn't matter in PvE for me. However, in PvP, it can be really annoying. If it is possible to balance something like this, I would really like if skills had different effects on mobs and players. Crit is present in almost every game that includes fighting, but it doesn't have to be RNG. It is really annoying when the enemy crits with 10% crit and I don't, and also it doesn't involve skill, just pure luck. Crit could be present in a way that you have to use your skills in a combo, and if you are successful, the last attack crits.

    I am not really creative and I don't know how would I solve something to be good that I think is bad in mmos. At the end of the day, the only RNG I really don't want to see is enchanting. I don't want my weapon to be +10, I want it to be like how I got it from a boss/how I crafted it.
  • Which systems do you feel utilize RNG the best?
    Crafting/Gathering systems feel enjoyable with some level of RNG to it. The over enchanting mechanic seems like a fun idea. I think the risk/reward aspect is key. Above average gear with some risk is fun.

    Loot tables are an MMO classic. I don't know if there's anything that could be said to persuade otherwise.

    Raptor heads. Whether or not they have them.

    Enemy Combat Mechanics. The longer it takes for me to be able to auto-pilot kill mobs, the longer I'll stay engaged with the PvE mechanics. RNG is more of an element here than a main mechanic. But utilization can't hurt!

    Where do you feel RNG does not belong?
    Combat but its fine to an extent. I think any RNG mechanic has to be designed around strategic mechanics and NOT as a barrier to viability.. RNG is super important in RPG's and there are certain stats that don't get better representation through other means. Critical Strike chance is a big one. Going for a crit build and sacrificing other valuable stats for it plays well for risk/reward. Hit chance is a weird one though.

    Action Based Combat. I think tab targeting should have its viability centered around its "auto aim". Action combat will hopefully suffer enough if the movement in the game stays as fast/responsive as it has in recent videos.

    To generalize, RNG feels super weird to have when you're just trying to be viable and enjoy the content of the game. I think experience/skill/PvP are much more natural and enjoyable barriers to content. I don't want to spend an hour to fail to have the key to some content because the drop just never came. I want to spend the hour failing because I need a better strategy or have to be better on my toes.

    What RNG-based systems or features have you enjoyed the most?
    New World (even with its many downfalls) had a secondary stat on weapons/armor that was typically class based or sometimes beneficial for crafting. It was also not a main stat, so if you got a useless one, you were still viable. But getting really lucky and having a very specific secondary stat condition, sometimes involving an ability, made you play and alter your combat rotations to implement that unique benefit.

    ^^^This feature could technically fit the AoC class model, especially with secondary classes. But I think the main benefit was the feeling of a random goodness without being necessary for even the most hardcore gamers. But it's a fun RNG aspect to chase if you like to min/max or just seek fun/unique combat rotations.

    GAMBLING WITH FAKE MONEY. TAVERN GAMES. GAMBLING ON WARS. THE PLANNED STOCK MARKET. ARENA GAMBLINGS. GAMBLING ON GAMBLING (The Big Short?). Idk. Gambling is AWFUL AND PURE EVIL in real life, but so is beating people up and video games give us a fun and innocent way to do it all.
  • Q: Which systems do you feel utilize RNG the best?

    A: RNG in various degrees is utilized the best in systems that involves constant repetition and to counter monotonicity and predictability in systems. Mainly Combat, Life Skills and Enchanting

    RNG in the environment(Possible buffs or debuffs the area may provide from time to time)
    RNG in stats Critical/Block/Parry/Evasion/CC chances.

    RNG in the pve combat(Monsters AI RNG patterns),
    RNG in the loot-tables
    (A nice and big list of drops possibilities, ranging from fairly common drops to extremely rare ones),
    RNG in variation of monsters types spawns possible even elites to shake things up sometimes.

    Life Skills Artisan Systems (Gathering, Prossecing and Crafting)

    RNG in the rarity The possibility of rarer yields outcomes
    RNG in the Amount The possibility of yield amount variation.

    And mastery in the professions of the artisan classes improving your odds.

    Even tho crafting currently isn't expected to have RNG involved, i believe the system could benefit from those 2 RNG examples.

    The good old gamble(with fake money) for power, the easiest to comprehend concept of risk vs reward, the harder and harsher it may be, so are the power and the glory accomplishable, RNGless enchanting is meaningless in my mind.

    Q: Where do you feel RNG does not belong?

    A: Its essential to remember that "The dose makes the poison" too much of anything can be dangerous and RNG is no exception, even tho too little RNG can make systems incredible boring and predictable, too much RNG may harm systems that require consistency and doesn't involves constant repetition like Sieges, Caravans, Housing, Guild, Taxes and etc.

    Q: What RNG-based systems or features have you enjoyed the most?

    A: All the 3 presented in the first answer "Mainly Combat, Life Skills and Enchanting".

    Its important to note that RNG usually has 2 main aspects, Negative outcome and Positive outcome(some times also a Neutral outcome) and they must be balanced accordingly for one to not overshadow the others.
    In my opinion RNG itself is a powerful tool for devs, which fits the concept of risk vs reward the most.
    Use it properly and its an amazing blessing in many systems,
    Use it improperly and it wreaks havoc in other systems,
    Don't use it at all and face boring repetitivy and predictability.
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • I hope that people will learn in these official discussions to present their positions and leave it up to the devs to use them, instead of finding faults with other peoples opinions, leading to endless pages of quoting and replying. Pages that most people will just skip, since they are basically 2-3 people arguing between themselves....


  • ashoneashone Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2022
    i don t mind a certain amount of rng. but when its for a cooking recipie, thats overkill. now actually making the recipie.. thats another thing all together. say its a recipie fpr saay roasted dragon, a certain amount of charrrd attempts and a certain amount of under cooks is to be expected.
  • DrunkninjaDrunkninja Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I like RNG in loot drops, weapon damage and gatherables as well as rare spawn timers.
  • So RNG is a big factor in what makes or breaks a game. Depending on just how wild the rates are can determine if the game is played long term. I think that is absolutely normal with RNG to have to run a dungeon 5-15 times for a specific piece of gear to drop. However if we are talking traditional raid or dungeon, you're looking at a players investment of one hour to two and a half hours of a commitment for a chance at that drop. If its needed by multiple people within a guild, which often they are, you just added a multiplier to the RNG factor of a whole dependent on how many classes and builds need that gear, probably times that by 2-4 due to people running the same spec. However I feel like this is a reasonable grind for a crucial piece of gear dropped in dungeons. The reality is that a lot of the core team is gamers, you have to think about it from a "If me and my buddies were playing this would we like it?" point of view to a degree. While this is just one example of the RNG I don't think it so much matters on a what is RNG on, but more on a how does this affect the gamers experiencing the content and their time to spend in the game. Not everyone can game for 6 plus hours a day. Sometimes thats all they get in a week.

    I think keeping the player experience of the RNG mechanic is crucial to the implementation of RNG. To a degree we all expect it and to a degree want it. We want to have the thrill in obtaining it. However we want to be able to obtain lots of things, have alts at least one or two and be able to have end game on all our characters. Which is another multiplier to consider in the RNG if this is needed by every class and players have 2. 3 alts usually just how long do we want the grind to be. But you still want it to feel challenging.

    I know this is a bit of a ramble and focuses on a single aspect, but it is the thought process behind what I say and demonstrate with dungeon/raid loot that should be applied to any system that will contain an RNG aspect.

    Black Sails
  • AnvilAnvil Member
    While I do not mind SOME rng, Anything approaching the level of say, BDO, would definitely be a bad thing. RNG in Drops is One thing, as long as it is a sure drop for YOUR primary class and Upgradeable. Enchant RNG can become toxic QUICK, Fast, and in-a-Hurry. If I spend the time farming enchant Mats, and the enchant Fails, and I lose the Mats.. Damage the equipment... AND Have to spend (X) amount of hours/days/weeks refarming mats for that enchant, My attitude would sour pretty quick towards the game. Crafting RNG is just stupid IMO, Gather mats, level your skill up and MAYBE... JUST Maybe.. you can create (Chest piece X) with these vunderbar Stats. Even if you spend THESE Mats... Hmmm Yeah sign me up for some of THAT!!.. Not. Would Like to see Crafting STAY Relevant. From Level 1 through infinity. Most games though, Are all about the drops. ("Why should I buy YOUR crafted Sword when I can get a better drop in Deep Dark Hole #13455??") Okay, Enough of My Rant. To answer the Question, No, I DO NOT Support RNG in games, BUUUUUT, I recognize that SOME RNG is Necessary. (Would just wish that Y'all would keep it on the Drops and Not Crafting and Enchanting. (Over Enchanting, Yeah, I can see THAT.)
    The Truth has 3 sides, Your Point of View, Their point of View, and The Actual Truth, so, Be careful How you wield the Sword of Truth, It Cuts 3 ways!
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