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About mandatory PvP.

We've reached a certain age where we just want to sit in our chairs and enjoy a good game, just stay in the predictable zone of bots and AI.

Just like me, there are many players who hate PvP, and who don't want 1% of it. I hope the kind of frustrations we're going to have are just not being able to kill a very difficult boss. I hope PvP combats in Caravans, World PvP and Nodes for example, don't take us away from AoC.

Developers, I'm really excited about what's being presented. It's all very beautiful! I'm super excited for the next tests and the upcoming release!
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Comments

  • CawwCaww Member
    There are many other games with gorgeous graphics that don't require PvP, this just isn't one of them. PvX is required as part of the core game. Massive siege PvP will probably change your mind given the amount of excitement participating in these can create.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    So, you feel like it's a good idea for a game that has been 5 years in development and went through dev hell trying to get the backend to support mass pvp, to just completely change it's direction because you don't like PvP?

    Theres plenty of good PvE games out there, or you can always do what Steven did, put in 40~80 million $ and make your own game with your own vision

    This is a PvX game and you will get murdered in the open world and get frustrated from it, you will die to other players that will probably type "easy ty noob" in the chat as they steal your loot, take over your boss, destroy your caravan, brake into your house after a siege. If you don't want to be in a guild and deal with that it's definitely not the game for you.
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  • TalentsTalents Member, Intrepid Pack
    Marpo wrote: »
    We've reached a certain age where we just want to sit in our chairs and enjoy a good game, just stay in the predictable zone of bots and AI.

    Just like me, there are many players who hate PvP, and who don't want 1% of it. I hope the kind of frustrations we're going to have are just not being able to kill a very difficult boss. I hope PvP combats in Caravans, World PvP and Nodes for example, don't take us away from AoC.

    Developers, I'm really excited about what's being presented. It's all very beautiful! I'm super excited for the next tests and the upcoming release!

    If you don't want PvP you have a selection of basically every other Western-made MMO in the last 18 years.
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  • CutieCutie Member
    edited June 8
    The truth is players have gotten too comfortable with todays MMORPGS's and never really experienced any meaningful combination of PvP and PvE that has been implemented the right way.

    Many MMO's are catering to separate PvE and PvP from MMO's to a point where they both feel like two very different games.

    To combine both is where the real engagements come from that you get from MMO's. If you don't want that aspect then I suggest sticking to modded Skyrim which is a wet dream for PvE enjoyers, even to this day...
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  • FerrymanFerryman Member
    edited June 8
    @Marpo I think that open world PvP is the only real threat for PvE players because it is the nonconsensual PvP content, but even then there will be the corruption system to protect peaceful players. Only future tests will show how much restrictions will be needed, however, devs do not want AoC to become a gankbox why we can presume to have significant OW PvP rules.

    I think otherwise players can avoid PvP mainly or even totally. Of course some PvP actions can affect to the players indirectly because of the dynamic world and systems. At this point the situation does not look that bad from PvE player perspective, imho, if you are ready to play in an environment which contains some PvP content as well. However, it is of course understandable if some people do not want to PvP at all but it will somewhat restrict the possibilities. Perhaps it is still smart to continue follow the progression, and later we will see which direction the open world PvP goes... How much it actually happens, how punishing it will be, and how easily it can be avoided.
    Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    edited June 8
    Or, as an alternative to the well-used ‘this game isn’t for everyone’ routine - you could hang with the game and community for a bit, spend $15 at launch and see for yourself whether your concerns are actual issues or ill-founded.

    Pretty inexpensive diagnostic.
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  • HaileeHailee Member
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Or, as an alternative to the well-used ‘this game isn’t for everyone’ routine - you could hang with the game and community for a bit, spend $15 at launch and see for yourself whether your concerns are actual issues or ill-founded.

    Pretty inexpensive diagnostic.

    You're actively encouraging people to formulate their own opinions by playing the game themselves!?

    This game obviously isn't for you crowe, we serve only the finest of cheap shots and "git gud" /s
  • You hope PvP doesn't "take you away from AoC"? Brother, I've got news for you, PvP is half the game. Player economy, player competition, PvP (thieving caravans included), IS AoC. Might I suggest a different game to set your sights on.
  • DeliaszDeliasz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Marpo wrote: »
    We've reached a certain age where we just want to sit in our chairs and enjoy a good game, just stay in the predictable zone of bots and AI.

    Just like me, there are many players who hate PvP, and who don't want 1% of it. I hope the kind of frustrations we're going to have are just not being able to kill a very difficult boss. I hope PvP combats in Caravans, World PvP and Nodes for example, don't take us away from AoC.

    Developers, I'm really excited about what's being presented. It's all very beautiful! I'm super excited for the next tests and the upcoming release!

    This game was designed in the core for unchained, free PvP. Its juts one aspect of the game. If you looking or rewards withour risk then it's not the title for you or people with similar approach. Instead try to find and love other aspects of the game.

    Peace and This is Sparta!!!
    Time goes fast. Time is a speed freak :D
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited June 8
    I think mandatory pvp, can also be an exciting feature for someone not interested in pvp at all. You plan your playing around what you want after all. Maybe you stay centerally in your home node, try and talk with nearly everyone around. Try and make your home safe and friendly. The social elements of, we dont have to be friends, is also the social element of we dont have to be enemies

    The importany part is the choice the player has. And i want my choice. Its mine, you cant have it.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited June 8
    I don't consider mandatory PvP to be exciting - but I'm not sure what is considered to be mandatory PvP in Ashes.
    Mandatory is not a choice.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I mean, if you want to get down to the definition of mandatory... there is 0 mandatory pvp in ashes, you could just not get the game.

    I imagine they dont like that anyone can attack you at any time. Which i think can be an exciting game element in general even if you dont want to fight. Coming up with trade routes that avoid hostile players, and your own little secret hiding places to avoid fight. Mingling in town for word on people around looking for fights. There can be interesting parts of avoiding pvp that makes the game more real
  • SkribbySkribby Member
    Forced PvP is the mmo killer. I've been playing mmo's for 20 years. Not a single fantasy based mmo has been able to do it. Many tried, the trend was very popular after WoW's initial success, there were many pvp focused titles. Age of Conan, Camelot Unchained (lol), Warhammer Online (was great, still died), and of course New World and that wasn't even forced pvp.

    Comments are always "go play something else" and the reality is that people do, and the game dies. Sweats ganking newbies ragequit when it eventually gets nerfed because people quit en masse. Rewards are never enough for the hardcore pvpers and the pvp dies out because no one thinks it's worth it after the initial 1-2 months rush.

    Good luck, I've yet to see it work in the real world, maybe Ashes can pull it off. Solutions are better than telling people to go play another game. The corruption system is good if it actively discourages ganking. Allowing a handful of people ruin the experience for many new players should definitely not be encouraged.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited June 8
    Skribby wrote: »

    Good luck, I've yet to see it work in the real world, maybe Ashes can pull it off. Solutions are better than telling people to go play another game. The corruption system is good if it actively discourages ganking. Allowing a handful of people ruin the experience for many new players should definitely not be encouraged.

    This can be flipped on you. Ashes has costant pvp. Solutions other than, i dont want it to are better than just saying the games going to die. Stevens clearly got a vision he is wanting to make happen. So persuade him and intrepid, with more than "i dont want pvp"


    Go play another game is my response when you say "ashes isnt what i want in a game" with no further solutions.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited June 8
    How well Corruption works to deter non-consensual PvP will probably be a key factor in whether there are enough PvE-focused players to support the game. Because, yes, if it doesn't successfully deter non-consensual PvP, they will go play another game.

    I don't think anyone will have to persuade Steven. He will make adjustments as needed.
    We'll see how Corruption gets tweaked in Alpha 2.

    Players can choose not to participate in Sieges and Caravan raids. That's not mandatory.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Lets talk about how well corruption may be able to curve unwanted pvp.


    Corruption gives the player, increased negative exp on death, potential to drop equipt gear, flags you for pvp against any target, reduces overall combat potential, and in itself needs to be worked off through playing the game or multiple deaths.

    How much time would being corrupted take from you for you not to kill just any random player your cross?

    20 minutes working off corruption? Plus 2 hours grinding off that negative exp?

    These are the values that will be tested and tweeked to allow a pvp anytime system to keep from abusing weaker players
  • OtrOtr Member
    20 minutes working off corruption? Plus 2 hours grinding off that negative exp?
    I vote for much longer time.
    Like playing a full weekend to clean your karma. Or you die.

    I assume that gear cannot be unequipped and sent by mail to a friend during the process.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Depends on how high the Corruption score is.
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited June 8
    Skribby wrote: »
    Forced PvP is the mmo killer. I've been playing mmo's for 20 years.

    This is all I needed to read...

    in every korean game or even Ultima Online, the economy game and the p2w is too strong and if the p2w isn't that strong the time investment to these kind of games sucks versus the "I'm going through and repeating dungeon/raid A-Z".

    Nobody casual in these games said "I've had xxx or countless amounts of PvP!", they didn't get the chance, they played the game and the game showed them, if that had taken time to realize, is that it is a fierce open world game where you need money and close allies....getting money sucks (themepark, dull quests, repeat killing, hard resource gathering) and getting great money takes great game knowledge and getting close allies, well most people aren't great at social or sucking up to the better guy.

    "NO I quit specifically because of the PvP" <=> Bitch, Ass, Excuse :smile:

  • OtrOtr Member
    Skribby wrote: »
    Forced PvP is the mmo killer. I've been playing mmo's for 20 years. Not a single fantasy based mmo has been able to do it. Many tried, the trend was very popular after WoW's initial success, there were many pvp focused titles. Age of Conan, Camelot Unchained (lol), Warhammer Online (was great, still died), and of course New World and that wasn't even forced pvp.

    Comments are always "go play something else" and the reality is that people do, and the game dies. Sweats ganking newbies ragequit when it eventually gets nerfed because people quit en masse. Rewards are never enough for the hardcore pvpers and the pvp dies out because no one thinks it's worth it after the initial 1-2 months rush.

    Good luck, I've yet to see it work in the real world, maybe Ashes can pull it off. Solutions are better than telling people to go play another game. The corruption system is good if it actively discourages ganking. Allowing a handful of people ruin the experience for many new players should definitely not be encouraged.
    Games die because are boring, no matter if are PvP or PvE.
    Some players are very resilient to grinding.
    We can try finding out if those are more PvE or PvP type of players.
    I think gamers as they get old, loose reaction speed and concentration, and would die more often in PvP. Probably those players lobby for peaceful fishing and tree cutting MMOs.
    They don't care for the young, more competitive generation. They are so selfish.
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    PVP is only mandatory if you do certain things.

    For example, you can go outside, ride a scooter, take a picnic, visit your family, watch some TV, cook a good meal, take a nap, or call up a friend for a nice chat.

    All activities where PVP is not mandatory.
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  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Otr wrote: »
    20 minutes working off corruption? Plus 2 hours grinding off that negative exp?
    I vote for much longer time.
    Like playing a full weekend to clean your karma. Or you die.

    I dont accept this answer. I asked how much time you think would desuade you from killing random players. I personally dont see myself killing many people without reason, i dont want to be set back days if it happens once or twice. Your point of veiw of "fuck anyone who would pvp me, they should lose 50 hours of their life" is just closeminded
  • LithionLithion Member
    I don't get why most of the replies are just "Go find another game" and saying this game isn't meant for people that just like PvE, but on that note Steven has stated multiple times that he wants many different types of players to be welcome in this game even non combatants saying "Non-Combat playstyles will absolutely be a full-time option" and he has said he wants role players and full time artisans of all types as well. I'm in the same boat, I'm going to be an artisan primarily and I'm just hoping the corruption system works very well so I don't get ganked every day making the game not fun. The caravan PvP and other PvP you sign up for sounds pretty fun, I just want to be able to do my PvE stuff from time to time and relax.

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  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Lithion wrote: »
    and I'm just hoping the corruption system works very well so I don't get ganked every day making the game not fun. The caravan PvP and other PvP you sign up for sounds pretty fun, I just want to be able to do my PvE stuff from time to time and relax.
    And this is the main reason why a lot of people just saying "go play another game". Because we've seen what this kind of feedback can snowball into (namely New World).

    Now obviously corruption is needed and should indeed dissuade people from just PKing everyone they see, but if it's so damn punishing for just 1 kill that you have to spend a week dealing with the consequences - you have yourself and opt-in pvp system where no one will pvp in the open world (cause it's too risky to attack someone who might die and get your character completely fucked).

    There's a thin balance of corruption penalty and removal-time, and the vocal part of the pve players love to yell for that balance to be absolutely in their favor. And in order to avoid that thing happening, a lot of pvpers just prefer to disregard that kind of feedback and say "go play other pve games, of which there are a shitton".
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    People may also wanna ask for a burger at a pizza place. And if the pizza place doesnt have burgers that will alienate people that dont like basketball.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Yeah, there are a shit-ton of PvE-focused MMOPRGs because PvP-focused MMORPGs are niche.
    Thankfully, Ashes is intended to be a PvX MMORPG.
  • OtrOtr Member
    edited June 8
    Otr wrote: »
    20 minutes working off corruption? Plus 2 hours grinding off that negative exp?
    I vote for much longer time.
    Like playing a full weekend to clean your karma. Or you die.

    I dont accept this answer. I asked how much time you think would desuade you from killing random players. I personally dont see myself killing many people without reason, i dont want to be set back days if it happens once or twice. Your point of veiw of "fuck anyone who would pvp me, they should lose 50 hours of their life" is just closeminded

    No, I see it as a way of living, on the dark side.
    Some people might choose to be always a little bit corrupt. Depends how the game is ballanced and what other features might be added to the game.
    But the one who kills an unflagged player, should not do it just for pleasure. My assumption is that he will stalk the player, observing his actions and finding out if is a valuable target.

    Possibly more players will be involved, spies, traitors...
  • St_NyackSt_Nyack Member
    People still have not got the memo ? Ashes is a PVX game .
    It is not "PvP"
    It is not "PVE"
    It is you and Mobs with B*llsh*t Ai
    Some of those mobs have the Ai of a mushroom
    Some of those mobs have the Ai of an evil ............... better not, i dont want a lecture about my choice of words
    Some of those mobs have the power level of a dead stick
    some of those mobs have the power level of a world boss
    some of those mobs are green and wont attack, some are orange and wont attack unless attacked first some are always hostile and will chase you across the world map
    some of those mobs will be polite and one will have a positive experience with
    some mobs will do a dance on your corpse and steal your items and insult your existence
    sometimes its a challenge , sometimes it is EZ
    In the end , this is the game ashes proposes to be.
    If one doenst find that to be fun ,find something else that is .
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Otr wrote: »
    But the one who kills an unflagged player, should not do it just for pleasure. My assumption is that he will stalk the player, observing his actions and finding out if is a valuable target.
    And in my PKing experience you kill someone to remove them from the premises, whichever they might be.

    Yes, with lootable resources there'll be some PKing for said loot, but I feel like that will be very rare cause I doubt the loot % will be huge. If some dude was farming some super rare resource and has 10 of it in his inventory, I'd assume he'll lose 1-2 on a default death. While the PKer will definitely have to leave that farming location because he'd be hunted and killed on sight by any other player. And if you can't remove corruption from 1 kill with 1 death or somewhat short amount of mob grinding - you'll pay for those 1-2 resources with much more than their worth.

    While PKing someone for farming locations/bosses gives you way bigger rewards and a chance to just remove your corruption by grinding (in the mob farming case).

    And that reasoning makes me think that gatherers won't be bothered all that much, so why should the corruption be overtuned just based on their feedback.
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